The story from Oakwood School in Rotherham is that the headmistress told parents & pupils that only Halal chicken would be served for Xmas dinner as 20% of the children are muslim. After complaints from parents & Denis McShane MP, she has capitulated and put ordinary turkey on instead but says that the school has been feeding ALL the children entirely on halal meat for a long time, unknown to them and their parents. Should she be sacked?

without a doubt she should go

Ive tried halal meat and it doesnt taste different form the usual kind. My other half worked for a catering company and she told me that the animal is slaughtered and bled slowly to death or something.
As long as the meat isnt unhealthy and the animal hasnt died too horrible Id think it was fine, but its all a matter of degrees at the end of the day isnt it.

Can someone explain the practice of producing halal meat please?

I'd say having its neck slit and bleeding slowly to death is pretty painful!

yes that's correct he slit the animals throats and left to bleed to dead!

there would be up roar if this was the other way round and it was a muslim school!!

I thought my other half was just trying to gross me out. Thats the last time I eat halal then and as for the teacher? She should go. At the least shes condoning cruelty.

Exactly and it shows whats creeping in to our kids schools.Wrong very wrong.:suspect:

I don't think it's as slow a death as we are thinking, I bet if you slit a cows throat properly it would bleed to death, or at least be unconcious, very quickly.

Errr, there is no religion - or atheist viewpoint - that requires the serving of non-halal foods. If some people have to have meat that was killed in a certain way, and other people can eat meat that was killed any old how, there's no sane reason NOT to serve halal meat.

I don't think it's as slow a death as we are thinking, I bet if you slit a cows throat properly it would bleed to death, or at least be unconcious, very quickly.

But surely it's better to stun the poor animal first? I wouldn't want to eat Halal meat.

I wonder why she decided they were all going to eat halal, is it cheaper or something :suspect: I'd sure want to know what my kids were being fed, sack the woman!

I don't think it's as slow a death as we are thinking, I bet if you slit a cows throat properly it would bleed to death, or at least be unconcious, very quickly.
Really, you find this a humane thing then.The question still remains over the under hand way this meat has been included into the kids meals.Ask yourself why its been done.

Yeah sack her. First turkey twizzlers and now halal meat. Jamie Oliver would proably have something to say about it.

The way kosher and halal animals are slaughtered is, in fact, very humane. The animal is slashed accross the main artery in the neck and becomes unconscious in less than 2 seconds. The animal doesn't suffer. I'd eat halal/kosher meat...what's the difference.... none.

If the kids wanted to eat halal meat, they should have been told to take a pack up.

If non muslims were to go to a muslim school I'm pretty sure they wouldnt be served non halal meat.

Really, you find this a humane thing then.

It's no less humane than firing a bolt into it's head, or boiling chickens alive, both of which happen in our "humane" abatoirs.

I would be extremely angry if my children were only served Halal meat. IMO the cruelty involved in slaughtering the animal is totally unacceptable in this day and age.

If we are going to ban fox hunting, veal crates and battery hens then this falls into the same level of cruelty and should also be banned. However no politician in this country today has the cojones to advocate such a policy

The Head shouldn't be sacked, just learn from the mistake and ensure everyone has a choice from now on..

I would be extremely angry if my children were only served Halal meat. IMO the cruelty involved in slaughtering the animal is totally unacceptable in this day and age.

If we are going to ban fox hunting, veal crates and battery hens then this falls into the same level of cruelty and should also be banned. However no politician in this country today has the cojones to advocate such a policy

The Head shouldn't be sacked, just learn from the mistake and ensure everyone has a choice from now on..


What cruelty are you referring to?

The way kosher and halal animals are slaughtered is, in fact, very humane. The animal is slashed accross the main artery in the neck and becomes unconscious in less than 2 seconds. The animal doesn't suffer. I'd eat halal/kosher meat...what's the difference.... none.
there IS no difference.Unless your vegetarian non of us can really cannot comment.No one actually cares about the animals anyway.this just seems to be 'one of those threads' You just KNOW where this thread is going.

They used to kill cows in the Kosher way every Monday afternoon at the abattoir on Cricket Inn Road. It is a bit gory, the cow is put into a contraption that looks like a big tumble dryer with its head stuck out. The machine turns the cow upside down, a bit like these inversion tables. A Holy man dressed in ceremonial robes then washes a special knife under running water. He then walks over to the cow and cuts its throat. The blood runs out over the floor.
I remember that when I watched it even some of the Slaughtermen thought it was a bit rough. I believe that Halal is done in the same way.
Apologies if too much information.

What is the difference between kosher meat and halal meat?

Im a meat eater and I care.
Actually I might look deeper into the whole thing, I would have thought that the animals were at least killed humanely, but that chicken boiling thing... ugh.

The animal/bird should be fed and should not be hungry or thirsty before slaughter
• The animal should not be slaughtered in front of other animals and no blood seen so that no stress or discomfort has been caused to the animal
• The animal should be handled gently and individually
• The knife should be very sharp and clean and should not be sharpened in front of any animal before slaughter
The cut to be done in the right anatomical position in the throat by cutting the two carotids, the two jugulars, the windpipe and the gullet, but without cutting the spinal cord
• All blood should be allowed to be drained from the carcass
• A specific time should be allowed till the animal ceases any movement
• De-feathering, de-skinning and evisceration can be done afterwards

Does anyone have a link to the news story please?

Thank you.

but that chicken boiling thing... ugh.

they only get boiled alive if they fail to get their heads chopped by a machine with two spinning circular blades.

The whole thing is pretty vile.

What is the difference between kosher meat and halal meat?
Kosher is the Jewish way, Halal is the Muslim way.

no matter how you kill an animal its pretty rough so i wouldnt care if my child was being fed halal meat or not. If people are so concerned about the animals then stop eating them, and stop buying all products that come from them! Obviosly the school would have to provide halal for certain children so would it not be easier to just use all halal meat??

Someone earlier quoted Veal crates, these are actually banned in Britain and thats why our veal is not so white but slightly pink as the animal has been able to run about a bit..

Its natural I suppose for animals to die from either bleeding to death or suffocation, thats how predators kill anyway, but boiling them alive? Thats barbaric.

:gag: God I feel sick.

As far as I'm concerned, meat is meat - I was brought up a vegetarian, and still eat little of it but any practice to kill animals is pretty grim - chickens are held upside down, stunned in an electric bath then have their throat slit with a machine. Most go through all of it consciously.

Little chicks are gassed to death if they aren't right for the meat.

Don't get me wrong, I eat chicken, bacon, sausage and wouldn't force my opinions on anyone, but don't kid yourself; there is no humane way of slaughtering animals for us to eat.

Its natural I suppose for animals to die from either bleeding to death or suffocation, thats how predators kill anyway, but boiling them alive? Thats barbaric.
have you ever seen how they kill the chickens? tey hook their legs onto a converyer belt which hangs them upside down and as it goes round the track the spinning knives cut thier heads of like nick said., its awful to see and you can hear the panic in the chickens as they are hooked up.
Cows frequently escape abbotoirs as they can smell and sense whats going to happen and they panic. so no matter how they are killed they generally have a fear before it.
Its really hard to stun the animal correctly, if its not done then it still feels the pain.
I suggest everyone who has said to sack this woman to do a google search before they judge!

I think I'll have a salad for tea.

no matter how you kill an animal its pretty rough so i wouldnt care if my child was being fed halal meat or not. If people are so concerned about the animals then stop eating them, and stop buying all products that come from them! Obviosly the school would have to provide halal for certain children so would it not be easier to just use all halal meat??

Someone earlier quoted Veal crates, these are actually banned in Britain and thats why our veal is not so white but slightly pink as the animal has been able to run about a bit..


The non muslim children/parents should at least have been given a choice. If the school had been feeding non halal meat to the muslim children without telling them there would be a huge uproar.

Just out of intrest i wonder why their not having turkey, or maybe you cannot get halal turkey :huh:

I can't see the problem. It's as kind to the animal as most other methods. Some parts of it probably much better for the animal than other methods. Either way they end up dead and people eat them. What is the problem?

And if she had been feeding non halal meat to muslim children she would definitely have been given the sack!

The firm my other half worked for regularly served non halal meat to muslims without telling them.

As far as I'm concerned, meat is meat - I was brought up a vegetarian, and still eat little of it but any practice to kill animals is pretty grim - chickens are held upside down, stunned in an electric bath then have their throat slit with a machine. Most go through all of it consciously.

Little chicks are gassed to death if they aren't right for the meat.

Don't get me wrong, I eat chicken, bacon, sausage and wouldn't force my opinions on anyone, but don't kid yourself; there is no humane way of slaughtering animals for us to eat.
well said it's funny seeing how people complain becuase they to dumb to realise it's just a differnt way of killing an animal if they had a problem with animals being killed they wouldn't eat them anyway.

The non muslim children/parents should at least have been given a choice. If the school had been feeding non halal meat to the muslim children without telling them there would be a huge uproar.
theres a fundamental difference though, which has already been mentioned.

If you are a Muslim, you are supposed to eat Halal meat.
If you are an atheist, christian, you are free to eat whatever.

So by serving halal meat, at least in theory, it meets everyones requirements. Why exactly do you oppose halal meat? On cruelty grounds, religious grounds, or just because you don't want a Muslim tradition (if you can call it that) at the school?

The original question was on the schools underhand way in which the kids were served this meat.The problem is that nothing will be done about it and it will be classed as trivial.Differant kettle of fish as to speak if the boot was on the other foot.

theres a fundamental difference though, which has already been mentioned.

If you are a Muslim, you are supposed to eat Halal meat.
If you are an atheist, christian, you are free to eat whatever.

So by serving halal meat, at least in theory, it meets everyones requirements. Why exactly do you oppose halal meat? On cruelty grounds, religious grounds, or just because you don't want a Muslim tradition (if you can call it that) at the school?

So given the choice, would you rather be stunned or not before you had your throat slit?

theres a fundamental difference though, which has already been mentioned.

If you are a Muslim, you are supposed to eat Halal meat.
If you are an atheist, christian, you are free to eat whatever.

So by serving halal meat, at least in theory, it meets everyones requirements. Why exactly do you oppose halal meat? On cruelty grounds, religious grounds, or just because you don't want a Muslim tradition (if you can call it that) at the school?
Thats not the issue tho, its the way its been done.Christ.:help:

So given the choice, would you rather be stunned or not before you had your throat slit?
I didn't think the thread title was 'kids killed in Halal fashion', my mistake.

I found horse meat rather nice. You get a nice thick steak and it tastes a little sweet.

theres a fundamental difference though, which has already been mentioned.

If you are a Muslim, you are supposed to eat Halal meat.
If you are an atheist, christian, you are free to eat whatever.

So by serving halal meat, at least in theory, it meets everyones requirements. Why exactly do you oppose halal meat? On cruelty grounds, religious grounds, or just because you don't want a Muslim tradition (if you can call it that) at the school?

And you are the one making it into a 'muslim' topic. My point is that some people would deem the halal way of slaughter to be cruel and would not wish their children to eat halal meat. It is the choice issue I was raising.

This threads hilarious, whats the difference for meat eaters? are you informed on the packet how your dead animal got killed if its not halal meat? I seriously cannot understand the problem. Where i work all the chicken we have is halal and people only find out if they specifically ask if its halal because generally people never ask, so shock horror...you may have already eaten halal meat! :o :)

The non muslim children/parents should at least have been given a choice. If the school had been feeding non halal meat to the muslim children without telling them there would be a huge uproar.
a cow is a cow, no matter how is was killed so what difference does it make? Everyone is so quick to shout about stupid things, who cares? people ought to realise life is to short to care what they have and have not been told! If i had not of been told i wouldnt go looking for the head to be sacked, if the muslim children had been givin non halal meat then yes there should be something said and done about it (e.g change the meat) but not given the sack. End of the day these children need to eat halal meat, our kids dont have an special requirements so what is all fuss about, what choice do they need?

This threads hilarious, whats the difference for meat eaters? are you informed on the packet how your dead animal got killed if its not halal meat? I seriously cannot understand the problem. Where i work all the chicken we have is halal and people only find out if they specifically ask if its halal because generally people never ask, so shock horror...you may have already eaten halal meat! :o :)
Indeed, it's not as though standard british abbatoir practice is exactly a thing of beauty and a joy forever.

well at the end of the day, we dont know what we are eating anyway. theres probably animal deriratives in veggie food.

I didn't think the thread title was 'kids killed in Halal fashion', my mistake.
how is it under hand? you you ask how all you meat is treated and killed before you eat it? if the muslim kids were eating the meat then it would have been pretty obvious that it was halla if. the school would want to lable it as halla to show it's thinking about people from other ethical backgrounds as most cristian kids don't care about how animals are treated don't not eat certain food becuase of beliefs whats the problem?

I recon 99% of this has caused has got nothing to do with the animals or the meat and more to do with the religion.

I didn't think the thread title was 'kids killed in Halal fashion', my mistake.

That made me chuckle :)

Personally, to suggest that adding an extra 2 minutes of pain to (I'm primarily referring to chickens here) an animals life, when they have already experienced a long period of suffering is inhumane and cruel seems rather short sighted. If a stun bath fails (which it does in a large number of cases, more than 50%), then the animal has experienced more pain already through a large electric shock.

She is a politically correct product of a left wing LEA that panders to the whims of the minorities. No she shouldn't be sacked she should be re trained, it's the people who issue the orders who should be sacked. Let's face it she is a school teacher who's profession has been ruined by thinking instructions from the LEA replacing common sense.

how is it under hand? you you ask how all you meat is treated and killed before you eat it? if the muslim kids were eating the meat then it would have been pretty obvious that it was halla if. the school would want to lable it as halla to show it's thinking about people from other ethical backgrounds as most cristian kids don't care about how animals are treated don't not eat certain food becuase of beliefs whats the problem?

Well what if the parents dont believe in the halal way of killing an animal? I'm not bothered personally, I don't eat meat anyway.

theres a fundamental difference though, which has already been mentioned.

If you are a Muslim, you are supposed to eat Halal meat.
If you are an atheist, christian, you are free to eat whatever.

So by serving halal meat, at least in theory, it meets everyones requirements. Why exactly do you oppose halal meat? On cruelty grounds, religious grounds, or just because you don't want a Muslim tradition (if you can call it that) at the school?

it does not matter how they were killed it is the fact that she never informed anyone that is the problem what would we be saying now if was the other way round serving muslims non halal meat

And my point was nothing to do with religion. People are entitled to their beliefs be it mulsim, christian, jewish, whatever!

it does not matter how they were killed it is the fact that she never informed anyone that is the problem what would we be saying now if was the other way round serving muslims non halal meat
why should anyone need informed? its a dead animal, as previously pointed out no matter what way they are killed is cruel so whats all the fuss about?

it does not matter how they were killed it is the fact that she never informed anyone that is the problem what would we be saying now if was the other way round serving muslims non halal meat

Thats what I meant! Its all down to people getting a choice. They should have served both and pleased everyone. Its like serving a choice of meat or veggie. Everyones happy!

Well what if the parents dont believe in the halal way of killing an animal? I'm not bothered personally, I don't eat meat anyway.
if you didn't believe in a cetain way of killing animals you would believe in killing them atall. i don't think any way of killing animails is cruelty free so i don't support eh industry

yes that's correct he slit the animals throats and left to bleed to dead!

there would be up roar if this was the other way round and it was a muslim school!!

the procress istself is not dissimialr to the process used by other commercial slaughter houses, whiile their slight technicial differences, the differences between unapproved, halal and kosher meat is more about who is present and who has 'approved' the slaughter house

once again a complete non event of a story pushed by Islamophobes, racists and the ignorant...

if you didn't believe in a cetain way of killing animals you would believe in killing them atall. i don't think any way of killing animails is cruelty free so i don't support eh industry

Yeah I think the way animals are killed is cruel a lot of the time. Maybe there should be tighter laws on humanity.

the procress istself is not dissimialr to the process used by other commercial slaughter houses, whiile their slight technicial differences, the differences between unapproved, halal and kosher meat is more about who is present and who has 'approved' the slaughter house

once again a complete non event of a story pushed by Islamophobes, racists and the ignorant...

Well I'm none of the above. Why do people assume that everyone else is?

without a doubt she should go

and your justification for suggestign that someoen should be sacked on the basis of a decision to rationalise supplier ?

it makes not a jot of difference to members of a faith who have no specific requirements on the slaughter of meat for consumption if meat is salughtered in a particualr way ( you only need look back a few years to where this was the standard methods of slaughter in most places )

and your justification for suggestign that someoen should be sacked on the basis of a decision to rationalise supplier ?

it makes not a jot of difference to members of a faith who have no specific requirements on the slaughter of meat for consumption if meat is salughtered in a particualr way ( you only need look back a few years to where this was the standard methods of slaughter in most places )
and still is in some places!! I think everyone sees a band wagon and jumps on it without looking at the facts!

once again a complete non event of a story pushed by Islamophobes, racists and the ignorant...It's you who is ignorant by being the first to bring the word racist into it when it's totally irrelevant and therefore you are the racist. There is no sign of anyone being Islamophobic on here whatsoever, Muslims have simply been mentioned because halal food is a Muslim thing. How come you haven't said it's anti-semitic because Kosher has been mentioned. People who try to bring racism up every time Muslims are mentioned make me puke and are the scourge of modern society. Posters here are saying that they think this method of slaughter may be cruel in their opinion but not BECAUSE it's Muslim, other cruel ways of dealing with animals such as veal crates have also been mentioned.

This teacher has done nothing wrong, non Muslims are ambivalent to how animals are slaughtered whereas Muslims have to have it slaughtered by the halal method and so she has used meat which suits everyone. If you go to a curry house you will be served halal meat. All the big supermarket chains sell halal meat.

I didn't think this thread was a racist matter. It was started because some parents complained that they didn't believe in halal meat and they were upset as they weren't informed what their children had been eating. If they don't believe in halal meat for whatever reason, that's their choice, just as it's the muslim belief to only eat halal produce. I think everyone has the right to choose what their children eat.

I don't know why people always turn posts like this where the word muslim is mentioned into a racist matter.

I'll bet 9 bob to the dollar that all Scholarest lamb is halal. I'm sure I have read it somewhere in their documents.


edit:

.......though concerns still exist after the school admitted that much of the meat served up for school dinners during the rest of the year is Halal.

http://www.rotherhamadvertiser.co.uk/html/news/fp.asp
This is the link to the story

On what grounds do these parents object to this meat?

If I were to reconsider my eating habits, I'd consider Halal before I'd consider being vegetarian :?

I didn't think this thread was a racist matter. It was started because some parents complained that they didn't believe in halal meat and they were upset as they weren't informed what their children had been eating.


If you're not a Muslim, then it's just meat. Doesn't matter how it was killed. There's nothing to be upset about.

On what grounds do these parents object to this meat?

If I were to reconsider my eating habits, I'd consider Halal before I'd consider being vegetarian :?

I think some people believe it to be inhumane. But as other people have pointed out, much of the other ways animals are killed is inhumane anyway.

I think some people believe it to be inhumane.


Of course it's inhumane. They aren't humans :loopy:

The school is on Moorgate in Rotherham. I know this because it's near where I live.

It has a growing number of muslim pupils. You do the maths about why the decision was taken.

Another poster pointed out that if a muslim school introduced non-halal meat to it's menu, there would be uproar. I agree, there would.

This should not have happened without public knowledge/parental agreement. This is completely unacceptable practice.

Headteachers cannot simply make uni-lateral decisions that have a wider knock-on effect without extensive consultation.

If you're not a Muslim, then it's just meat. Doesn't matter how it was killed. There's nothing to be upset about.

I think many parents believe halal is more inhumane then other traditional ways. Perhaps the school could have explained exactly what halal was.

Headteachers cannot simply make uni-lateral decisions that have a wider knock-on effect without extensive consultation.

There is no knock-on effect, wide or otherwise. From the non-Muslim standpoint, a school which serves meat still serves meat. There isn't even a story here.

What do people think they are eating in their take-away curries?

Well I'm off to have an omlette.

If you're not a Muslim, then it's just meat. Doesn't matter how it was killed
Spot on. What a ridiculous suggestion, to 'sack the woman'..! Just what exactly is the problem for non-muslims to eat Halal meat?? Are they frightened that they might 'catch' Islam and suddenly morph into Muslims :hihi:

Meat is meat.. dead animal. Dead meat whichever what way

Many asian take-aways serve only halal meat, don't think people will start boycotting them, because of the choice of meat they serve.

Many asian take-aways serve only halal meat, don't think people will start boycotting them, because of the choice of meat they serve.

Absolutely. The whole thing is a non-story.

This should not have happened without public knowledge/parental agreement. This is completely unacceptable practice.


Why ever not sTaGeWaLkEr?
I very much agree with Heyesey's view here; it's meat. The Forum has done the Halal vs non-Halal debate before and if i remember correctly the upshot was that Halal is as humane, if not more so than other methods of slaughter. So why the need to have parental consent? Do we need to have parental consent to feed kids on factory farmed mechanically recovered meat slops fashioned into fancy shapes stuffed full of rusk and additives? I think not. Do we need to ask for parental consent to allow children to eat an apple that's been sprayed with insecticide and flown in from NZ? No. So why the song and dance about Halal?

Why ever not sTaGeWaLkEr?
I very much agree with Heyesey's view here; it's meat. The Forum has done the Halal vs non-Halal debate before and if i remember correctly the upshot was that Halal is as humane, if not more so than other methods of slaughter. So why the need to have parental consent? Do we need to have parental consent to feed kids on factory farmed mechanically recovered meat slops fashioned into fancy shapes stuffed full of rusk and additives? I think not. Do we need to ask for parental consent to allow children to eat an apple that's been sprayed with insecticide and flown in from NZ? No. So why the song and dance about Halal?

I am not bothered how the animal is killed I will still eat the point is

IF the situation was the other way round ordinary meat to muslims there would be uproar it is against the religion

I am not bothered how the animal is killed I will still eat the point is

IF the situation was the other way round ordinary meat to muslims there would be uproar it is against the religion

And fair enough if the situation was reversed; but isn't, so I still don't see why it's a problem for some people.

And fair enough if the situation was reversed; but isn't, so I still don't see why it's a problem for some people.
I agree but they could have been

I think some people believe it to be inhumane. But as other people have pointed out, much of the other ways animals are killed is inhumane anyway.
But the thrust of this thread suggests that it's nothing to do with how humane it is or otherwise....

I bet the people objecting have no idea how it's produced. Are any of these people involved in any other animal rights protesting? Are any of them actually vegetarian?

Here we go again projecting our own values onto animals! :roll:

As I understand it, the halal killing method is quite humane and the animal 'shouldn't' suffer anything other than "going to sleep". Normal western slaughter techniques 'should' be equally humane. The only real difference is that they are quicker and dispatch more animals per hour at a lower price to the producer.

All methods go wrong on occasions. I won't regale with you of everyday slaughter house tales of mishap, but suffice to say that killing an animal always ends up with the same result - a dead carcass butchered for the table. Perhaps the least stressful method for the animal is on-farm captive bolt and on-farm butchering, but how many people want to pay the premium prices that requires?

I'm quite comfortable with the facts, but if you don't like the idea of animals being killed, you're free to refrain from eating meat.

But don't kid yourself about the process and that one way is somehow 'less cruel.

Many asian take-aways serve only halal meat, don't think people will start boycotting them, because of the choice of meat they serve.
Most of my take-aways are Chinese. If I went to an Indian restaurant/take-away [and many "Indian" restaurants aren't actually Indian] and it advertised itself as selling halal - as some do - I'd boycott it.

On the schools issue, if it is not cost effective to serve two types of meat in one school then Muslim and non-Muslim pupils should be taught in separate schools.

For cruelty sceptics here's a BBC article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2977086.stm

The method of animal slaughter used by Jews and Muslims should be banned immediately, according to an independent advisory group. The Farm Animal Welfare Council (FAWC), which advises the government on how to avoid cruelty to livestock, says the way Kosher and Halal meat is produced causes severe suffering to animals.


The halal/kosher issue has some parallels with fox-hunting (the banning of which I support) in that, irrespective of technical arguments around the efficacy of different methods of killing, it is the premeditated sadism which many people find repugnant.

Here we go again projecting our own values onto animals! :roll:

And here 'we' go again trying to convince other people that we're right and they're wrong.

Please allow others to have opinions. Not everyone has to agree with you. It's ok to have a difference of opinion. I believe it's a good thing.

:)

Was this thread originally about the use of this meat without the kids parents knowledge or consent.You think its all over it is now:confused: :confused:

I'm not really doing that sTaGeWaLkEr. I'm just trying to bring a little reality to proceedings.

People kid themselves because they don't know the facts, and a few people like to ignore the facts so they can kid people. You have to ask yourself why they wish to do that. ;)

Was this thread originally about the use of this meat without the kids parents knowledge or consent.
Once you know the facts, what difference does it make how the animal is killed?

The way kosher and halal animals are slaughtered is, in fact, very humane. The animal is slashed accross the main artery in the neck and becomes unconscious in less than 2 seconds. The animal doesn't suffer. I'd eat halal/kosher meat...what's the difference.... none.

I’m sure if you were to undergo that same treatment via a knife it would not pacify your family to know that you died (a) in fear and (b) in two seconds. The latter is not true, incidentally.

If kids were fed spam at school there would be no problem.Its very nutritional and can be cooked in various ways.Kids would love it, my family all eat it.:confused: :confused:

What we need to know is why are there all these fancy ways of getting meat to the table?
Does it make any difference? - Religiously or to the taste?

Could it be cos Jews and Muslims originally came from hot countries where the rapid killing and preparing of meat/food reduced the incidence of illness and death. Neither eat Pork which is renown for poor storage properties.

The religions, as ever did, invented some Hokus Pokus, edict, word of god, wrote summat in a book or laws to protect their flock. This was not a bad thing . . . .at the time.

But come on! It's the 21st century you know!



Enough already . . . . .. you can shoot bullets through me now

Most of my take-aways are Chinese. If I went to an Indian restaurant/take-away [and many "Indian" restaurants aren't actually Indian] and it advertised itself as selling halal - as some do - I'd boycott it.

On the schools issue, if it is not cost effective to serve two types of meat in one school then Muslim and non-Muslim pupils should be taught in separate schools.

For cruelty sceptics here's a BBC article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2977086.stm



The halal/kosher issue has some parallels with fox-hunting (the banning of which I support) in that, irrespective of technical arguments around the efficacy of different methods of killing, it is the premeditated sadism which many people find repugnant.

You've not made it clear why you would boycott an establishment that serves halal. Is this because you believe it to be more cruel than other methods of killing?

Was this thread originally about the use of this meat without the kids parents knowledge or consent.You think its all over it is now:confused: :confused::help: :help: :help: :help:

You've not made it clear why you would boycott an establishment that serves halal. Is this because you believe it to be more cruel than other methods of killing?

I hear that brown people eat Halal meat.

I hear that brown people eat Halal meat.
OH GOD, soap box alert.:confused: :confused: :confused:

IF the situation was the other way round ordinary meat to muslims there would be uproar it is against the religion
Yes; but consuming non-Halal meat is not a requirement of other religions, is it :rolleyes:

I hear that brown people eat Halal meat.

Ah, KenH, ever ready with the unpalatable truth - alas, I believe you may have a point;our friend angle20 is a little touchy about our non - white brothers and sisters. (Scared I reckon.)

Yes; but consuming non-Halal meat is not a requirement of other religions, is it :rolleyes:
This thread is NOT about religions is it.PLEASE read the heading.:confused: :confused:

Im just about to set a thread up called"The eating habits of muslims and non religous people".Feel free to post.:confused: :confused:

We've got rid of these already:-

1. The earth is flat
2. Man was molded from dirt - (work in progress in Tennesse)
3. You need to cut live hearts out to have a good harvest.
4. Blood transfusions cause death (work in progress in Utah)
5. The world as we know it will cease to be within one generation of the First World War.
6. Other spice factories can make Bassetts Liquorice Allsorts so you can't tell the difference!

Any more?
I aim to offend everyone in the end

From Wikipedia:

Halal (حلال, ḥalāl, halaal) is an Arabic term meaning "permissible". In the English language it most frequently refers to food that is permissible according to Islamic law. In the Arabic language it refers to anything that is permissible under Islam.

The use of the term varies between Arabic-speaking communities and non-Arabic-speaking ones.

In Arabic-speaking countries, the term is used to describe anything permissible under Islamic law, in contrast to haraam, that which is forbidden. This includes behaviour, speech, dress, conduct, manner and dietary laws (listen to some aspects of halal).

In non-Arabic-speaking countries, the term is most commonly used in the narrower context of just Muslim dietary laws, especially where meat and poultry are concerned, though it can be used for the more general meaning as well [1]. This dichotomy of usage is similar to the Hebrew term "kosher".
Malaysian Islamic Development Department (JAKIM)'s Halal's logo.
Enlarge
Malaysian Islamic Development Department (JAKIM)'s Halal's logo.

[edit] Quranic Verses relating to Halal

In determining whether a food is halal or haraam (forbidden), various verses of the Quran (ayat) are frequently referenced:

"He hath only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that on which any other name hath been invoked besides that of Allah. But if one is forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits - then is he guiltless. For Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful" [2]Quran 2:173

"Forbidden to you (your food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; than which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject Faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful" [3]Quran 5:3

"Say: I find not in the message received by me by inspiration any (meat) forbidden to be eaten by one who wishes to eat it, unless it be dead meat, or blood poured forth, or the flesh of swine, for it is an abomination or, what is impious, (meat) on which a name has been invoked, other than Allah's. But (even so), if a person is forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits, thy Lord is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful" [4]Quran 6:145

"He has only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and any (food) over which the name of other than Allah has been invoked. But if one is forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits, then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful" [5]Quran 16:115

The following verses are oft-cited when referring to alcohol and Islam:

"Shaitân (Satan) wants only to excite enmity and hatred between you with intoxicants (alcoholic drinks) and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allâh and from As-Salât (the prayer). So, will you not then abstain?"[6] Quran 5:91

"They ask you (O Muhammad) concerning alcoholic drink and gambling. Say: "In them is a great sin, and (some) benefit for men, but the sin of them is greater than their benefit." And they ask you what they ought to spend. Say: "That which is beyond your needs." Thus Allâh makes clear to you His Laws in order that you may give thought." [7] Quran 2:219

[edit] Varying Forms of Halal

Muslims vary on what is required for food to be considered "halal".

[edit] Dhabiĥa Halal

Adherents to this philosophy maintain that in order for food to be considered halal, it must not be a forbidden substance and any meat must have been slaughtered according to traditional guidelines set forth by the Sunnah, known as dhabiĥa. This is the strictest definition of halal.

[edit] First type of "Bismillah" Halal

Some believe that the guidelines of dhabiĥa do not necessarily need to be followed[8] and reciting "Bismillah al Raĥman Al Raĥim" (In the name of God the Beneficent the Merciful) immediately preceding consumption renders the meat permissible. People who adhere to this type of halal generally do not partake in the consumption of forbidden substances. Defenders of this method declare that the Quran does not dictate that God's (see Islamic concept of God) name must be taken prior to slaughtering the animal, it merely says in multiple places:

And eat not of that whereon Allah's name hath not been mentioned..Quran 6:121 [9]

They also narrate a hadith in which Muhammad states "Mention Allah's name on it and eat..." upon being questioned on how to deal with food that is not verifiably dhabiĥa. [10]

Critics of this method claim that the text of the Quran and the hadith needs to be taken in perspective, and accuse defenders of this method of misinterpreting them. [11]

[edit] Second type of "Bismillah" Halal

Adherents to this type of "Bismillah Halal" generally believe that any food, whether or not it is a forbidden substance, becomes halal once "Bismillah al Raĥman Al Raĥim" (In the name of God the Beneficent the Merciful) is recited over the food[verification needed]. Generally, this phrase is recited immediately prior to consumption.

It is believed by many[citation needed] that this method of making food halal does not adhere to Islamic guidelines, largely because it contradicts the Quranic verses on forbidden substances.

[edit] Halal and Kosher

Some believe that kosher is an adequate replacement for halal, even though they are not identical[12].

Some go as far as to say that halal and kosher are identical. Although they bear significant resemblance, most Muslim and Jewish authorities believe the terms are not interchangeable. [13]. More information can be found at Comparison of Dhabiĥa Halal and Kashrut.

[edit] Non-Pork Halal

Some believe that as long as a substance is not pork, it can be considered halal.[citation needed] This is contrary to all authoritative interpretations of the Quran, more specifically, the Quranic verses on forbidden substances.
[edit] Explicitly Forbidden Substances

A variety of substances are considered forbidden (haraam) as per various Quranic verses:

* Pork, or any pig-based products
* Blood
* Animals slaughtered in the name of anyone but God
* Carrion
* Any animal found dead
* "Fanged beasts of prey"[14] as per the Sunnah, usually simplified to all Carnivorous animals with the exception of most fish and sea animals
* And all intoxicants (specifically alcohol)

There is some disagreement among Muslims regarding sea food, especially predatory sea creatures. IFANCA (Islamic Food and Nutrition Council of America) states this regarding the opinion of Islamic scholars[15]:

* All are in agreement that fish with scales are halal
* Sunnis consider all fish to be Halal, while Shias consider some fish haraam[16].
* Most agree that frogs are haraam
* Some believe that fish found dead are haraam
* Some believe that only those sea creatures resembling halal land creatures are halal

[edit] Dhabiĥa (method used to slaughter animals)

The conventional method of slaughtering all animals excluding fish and most sea-life is known as dhabiĥa (ذَبِيْحَة), often pronounced by non-Arabs as zabiha. It involves severing the major arteries in the neck of the animal, as well as the esophagus and trachea with one swipe of a nonserrated blade.

[edit] Criticisms of Dhabiĥa Halal

Some object to dhabiĥa halal and believe that it causes needless suffering to the animal which is not stunned before slaughter.

Advocates for dhabiĥa halal contend that this method of slaughter is actually more humane than the modern method of stunning before slaughter.

For more detail, see dhabiĥa and animal rights controversy.

[edit] Problems Following dietary laws in non-Muslim countries
Australian halal certificate for chocolate.
Enlarge
Australian halal certificate for chocolate.
Malaysian halal certificate for a coffee's brand
Enlarge
Malaysian halal certificate for a coffee's brand

Depending on which definition of halal a Muslim chooses to adhere to, and the strictness with which the person chooses to adhere to it, living in a non-Muslim country can pose minimal or great difficulty.

[edit] Dhabiĥa Halal

Dhabiĥa halal is relatively difficult to adhere to in a non-Muslim country. This is for four reasons:

* Depending on the presence or absence of a significant Muslim population in the area, finding grocery stores, meat stores, and restaurants which serve/sell dhabiĥa halal foods can be extremely difficult.

* The abundance of pork and non-dhabiha meats at restaurants presents a rather difficult problem to overcome. While the person will not order a non-dhabiĥa halal dish, there is a concern about "cross-contamination". This is likely to occur when the dhabiĥa halal dish is prepared with the same cooking tools as other non-dhabiĥa halal dishes. Food and juices from the two dishes are likely to be exchanged, technically rendering the dhabiĥa halal dish as haraam.

* The third reason that followers of dhabiĥa halal find it difficult is because of the presence of non-dhabiĥa ingredients. Many apparently meat-free recipes, and even desserts, contain pork, gelatin, or other non-conforming substances. There is also a concern in the Muslim community about food additives such as monosodium glutamate (MSG) that may use enzymes derived from pig fat in the production process. It is very difficult to avoid such food additives as they are widely used and are also not declared on a restaurant menu.

* The final difficulty pertaining to dhabiĥa halal is the frequent use of alcohol, especially wine, in cooking. It is largely used in sauces and cakes, and is also present in ingredient vanilla extract. Some contend that this is not a concern, so long as the alcohol has been thoroughly burned off in the cooking process.

Since the turn of the century, there have been efforts to create organizations such as the Muslim Consumer Group that certify food products as halal for Muslim consumers.

We've got rid of these already:-

1. The earth is flat
2. Man was molded from dirt - (work in progress in Tennesse)
3. You need to cut live hearts out to have a good harvest.
4. Blood transfusions cause death (work in progress in Utah)
5. The world as we know it will cease to be within one generation of the First World War.
6. Other spice factoeries can make Bassetts Liquorice Allsorts so you can't tell the difference!

Any more?
I aim to offend everyone in the end

And your point was what exactly?

So the problem is they were not consulted?

I wonder if people are objecting for the sake of it, I wonder if the school had sent a letter home explaining what was asking and asking for objection/opinion whether half of those who complained would have done so?

I think the electric stunning / bolt approach to slaughter probably has more to do with the way we produce and slaughter animals than any real feeling for their welfare. As far as I am aware, when farm slaughter was performed it was usually by throat slitting. However this is a fairly skilled process which would be carried out by butchers travelling between farms. By contrast stunning and bolt killing are relatively unskilled and lends itself much better to intensive agriculture and the use of large centralised abbotoirs. I seriously doubt (from the animals point of view!) that there is anything to chose between a bolt or a knife.

So the problem is they were not consulted?

I wonder if people are objecting for the sake of it, I wonder if the school had sent a letter home explaining what was asking and asking for objection/opinion whether half of those who complained would have done so?
YES YES. AT LAST.The fact is they wernt consulted and correct me if im wrong but thats the point of the thread.:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

YES YES. AT LAST.The fact is they wernt consulted and correct me if im wrong but thats the point of the thread.:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

But why should they have been consulted Brooksy? No-ones yet been able to give any kind of reasonable rationale as to why they feel parents should have been consulted.

This thread is NOT about religions is it.PLEASE read the heading.. Im just about to set a thread up called"The eating habits of muslims and non religous people".Feel free to post
Thanks for the invite, however I have no wish nor need to

This thread is complaining that Halal meat was served to non-muslim children without their knowledge. My point being - so what? Whats the big deal? Meat is meat; if you have no religious rules stating how your animals for consumption should be killed, what does it matter how they die..?? When it arrives served up on your plate, its all the same dead muscle fibres.

These non-muslim children do not lose out, nor become affected negatively by consuming Halal meat. So the problem is exactly.........?
.

YES YES. AT LAST.The fact is they wernt consulted and correct me if im wrong but thats the point of the thread.:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
So....? Should parents be consulted on vegetable production too?

You're to applauded for trying to keep the religion thing out of it but come on Brooksey, what's your point?

Ah, KenH, ever ready with the unpalatable truth - alas, I believe you may have a point;our friend angle20 is a little touchy about our non - white brothers and sisters. (Scared I reckon.)


It's even worse than that! I have looked it up and I find that Halal is the kind of meat that terrorists eat. In my day I can remember my mother getting up a petition when they gave us irish stew without seeking written permission, for that very reason.

So....? Should parents be consulted on vegetable production too?

You're to applauded for trying to keep the religion thing out of it but come on Brooksey, what's your point?

Yeah, what is your point? Brooksy, Stagey, anybody?

So the problem is exactly
- A load of people who have nothing better nor anything less narrow-minded to do that whinge and b*tch and complain about something that is actually negligible.

I eat Halal meat all the time. I fail to see what all the fuss is about.

If you eat from international take aways/restaurants, likely hood is so do you.

Hi Halibut,

I think Ken has got the idea. I can see his toungue from here.
Some people on this thread are serious?!?

signed 'Outraged' from Deepcarr

....sorry Deepcarr

So....? Should parents be consulted on vegetable production too?

You're to applauded for trying to keep the religion thing out of it but come on Brooksey, what's your point?
The point im trying to make, which isnt against muslims or anyone else is the fact is that parents in schools have very little if any input or information into whats been given nutrionally to there kids.If parents dont want there kids eating halal meat then so be it.If they dont mind then fair enough but at least give them the choice.There the parents of these kids not me and you and its there choice.It dosnt have to turn into a debate on cruelty to animals its quite a simple subject, well i thought it was.Funny thing choice how depending on the subject becomes a battlegroung for certain folk.oh well.:confused:

Why would parents need a choice? What's the difference?

..have very little if any input or information into whats been given nutrionally to there kids.. give them the choice ..its there choice
So can you tell us how the meat is different when it is served up on the plate in front of the child? Given two cuts of meat cooked and served, how are they nutritionally different?

Did you get up in arms about the crud that was previously being (or is still) served to schoolchildren which was masquerading as food? Do you speak up about that rubbish Sunny 'Delight' being stored in the chiller cabinets next to fresh fruit juice?
.

Why would parents need a choice? What's the difference?
Well if theres no differance why is the xmas turkey at this school got to be halal only.Theres obviously a trend being set here and has aresult the parets of this kids have made there opinions made to the school.Your attempt at pushing me down the wrong track isnt working Tony, and as i said its about choice and in some cases going with the majority.:)

Did the parents or kids ever ask for a debrief on their school meals? I'd be more worried about how non-halal meat is produced. Some of the conditions animals are kept in is atrocious eg battery hens.

If you knew what really happened to you meat you'd be a vegitarian.

To me it sounds like a good economic solution. 80% of the school population don't have any special requirement so why not address the other 20% of the school requirements. It would drive up the cost of school meals if they had to cater separately for this requirement. And you can't say 'bring a pack up' because the school has a responsibility to provide a hot meal to pupils especially those on free school meals.

It just goes to show that rational thought goes out of the window on this forum. Nevermind looking at the discipline record or exam results and judging the Head on real criteria - you want her to be sacked because she provided muslim friendly food to non-muslims. Does that mean schools can't serve chinese food or indian food if tha majority of the population is another nationality.

Absurd.

Your attempt at pushing me down the wrong track isnt working Tony,
No brooksy I'm genuinely not trying to. I know what you're getting at, but I'd have just come out with it if I was implying that. ;)

I'm at a loss to understand what genuine objection there is.

has aresult the parets of this kids have made there opinions made to the school
Opinions based on and from misinformed, bigoted and uneducated parents I've no doubt. Haha, how ironic :rolleyes:

Opinions based on and from misinformed, bigoted and uneducated parents I've no doubt. Haha, how ironic :rolleyes:
Thanks for that, didnt realise id made those kind of comments.It never ceases to amaze me how a person cant make a comment which he believes to be true without the sf soap box crew coming out.Well done you.:thumbsup:

Thanks for that, didnt realise id made those kind of comments.It never ceases to amaze me how a person cant make a comment which he believes to be true without the sf soap box crew coming out.Well done you.:thumbsup:
Did you make that kind of comment? Did I say you had? Are you one of these parents?

And why do you have a right to make a comment which you 'believe to be true', yet anybody opposing it and believing something else cannot? :confused:

Well done you on misinterpreting things :thumbsup:

Did you make that kind of comment? Did I say you had? Are you one of these parents?

And why do you have a right to make a comment which you 'believe to be true', yet anybody opposing it and believing something else cannot? :confused:

Well done you on misinterpreting things :thumbsup:
So what you actually opposing then , and what do you believe.Please enlighten me on what your point is.Thankyou

So what you actually opposing then , and what do you believe.Please enlighten me on what your point is.Thankyou
Have you failed to read my other posts

Please do if you wish to digest my viewpoint

Thank you

Perhaps every child should see how their meat is produced and then be asked to make a decision as to whether to eat meat at all. Then, if they chose to continue eating meat, they could select a preferred method of killing their chosen creature(s).

When alls said and done its just meat. Halal meat doesnt taste different to regular meat, anyone who eats it wont suddenly turn into muslims, animals have to die, ok the methods of killing them isnt nice but there is no nice way to slaughter anything.

Can someone explain the practice of producing halal meat please?
They cut the head off,drain all the blood but leave the neck on.

Perhaps every child should see how their meat is produced and then be asked to make a decision as to whether to eat meat at all. Then, if they chose to continue eating meat, they could select a preferred method of killing their chosen creature(s).
That's a marvellous idea - it's nothing to be scared of. :) Whilst I wouldn't want them having partake in slaughter, it would also be a great idea to get them tending a vegetable garden at school, going out on small fishing boats for the afternoon, growing tomatoes in the classroom windows, and generally getting in touch with the realities of real food production!

There's still time to claw it back before we all end up relying on Soylent Green.

When alls said and done its just meat. Halal meat doesnt taste different to regular meat, anyone who eats it wont suddenly turn into muslims, animals have to die, ok the methods of killing them isnt nice but there is no nice way to slaughter anything.
Iagree with you but i still stand by what i said about choice. Also about spam, its very nutritional and as a long shelf life.:thumbsup:

Iagree with you but i still stand by what i said about choice. Also about spam, its very nutritional and as a long shelf life.:thumbsup:
Halal spam n whelks... I wonder how a whelks throat is sliced...

Did the parents or kids ever ask for a debrief on their school meals? I'd be more worried about how non-halal meat is produced. Some of the conditions animals are kept in is atrocious eg battery hens.

If you knew what really happened to you meat you'd be a vegitarian.

To me it sounds like a good economic solution. 80% of the school population don't have any special requirement so why not address the other 20% of the school requirements. It would drive up the cost of school meals if they had to cater separately for this requirement. And you can't say 'bring a pack up' because the school has a responsibility to provide a hot meal to pupils especially those on free school meals.

It just goes to show that rational thought goes out of the window on this forum. Nevermind looking at the discipline record or exam results and judging the Head on real criteria - you want her to be sacked because she provided muslim friendly food to non-muslims. Does that mean schools can't serve chinese food or indian food if tha majority of the population is another nationality.

Absurd.


What if the parents of a Christian child insisted that the child be served fish on Fridays' whould their wishes be granted. The ratio is 80/20 I think we are still a majority. If it is that the non-christian child must have halal meat then the Muslim authorities should provide it. I know that some one will now accuse me of being racist but I am not, just making a point.

What if the parents of a Christian child insisted that the child be served fish on Fridays' whould their wishes be granted. The ratio is 80/20 I think we are still a majority. If it is that the non-christian child must have halal meat then the Muslim authorities should provide it. I know that some one will now accuse me of being racist but I am not, just making a point.
Good point but run for cover:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

What if the parents of a Christian child insisted that the child be served fish on Fridays' whould their wishes be granted. The ratio is 80/20 I think we are still a majority. If it is that the non-christian child must have halal meat then the Muslim authorities should provide it. I know that some one will now accuse me of being racist but I am not, just making a point.
Actually thats a bloody good point.

You have no point prioryx. Before you get all angry about something, try asking yourself "why does it matter?"

... and brooksy, I thought that you weren't trying to go down that path? I hope that you weren't fibbing to us. :nono:

:huh: :huh:
Headteachers cannot simply make uni-lateral decisions that have a wider knock-on effect without extensive consultation


Well what are they paid to do then? But that's another topic entirely.

sorry, haven't got the hang of this quoting malarkey yet, the above was supposed to be quoted from way back on page 4

You have no point prioryx. Before you get all angry about something, try asking yourself "why does it matter?"

... and brooksy, I thought that you weren't trying to go down that path? I hope that you weren't fibbing to us. :nono:
Im not Tony but put in the correct context his statment is quite valid.

it does not matter how the animal died

you either eat meat and its killed
or your veggie and its not

doesnt matter one jot whether its halal or not.

i worked in a chicken slughterhouse and on numerous occasions chicks got above the electic shock bit and had throats cut anyway.

and you think electric shock or other "none painful" ways to die are really less painful? i wouldnt want to die any of them tbh

and whys this in the sheffield chat section?
its about a school in rotherham :confused:

Im not Tony but put in the correct context his statment is quite valid.
I honestly don't see why. What does it matter? If it is cheaper for the school to do something one way rather than another, and the end result is no different whatsoever then I'd probably say that it was a good decision on the part of the school. Why not feed everyone fish on Fridays? Do they not? They did when I was at school.

:huh: :huh:
Headteachers cannot simply make uni-lateral decisions that have a wider knock-on effect without extensive consultation .
Which wider effect would that be?


Mod note to jacq:
(quotes... hit the "quote" button that you see on each post, then type your response underneath. Be careful not to delete or overwrite the code that you see in-between square brackets at the start and beginning of the quote... eg [quote=jacq] . Hope that helps :))

Mod note to melthebell: Thread moved.

it does not matter how the animal died

you either eat meat and its killed
or your veggie and its not

doesnt matter one jot whether its halal or not.

i worked in a chicken slughterhouse and on numerous occasions chicks got above the electic shock bit and had throats cut anyway.

and you think electric shock or other "none painful" ways to die are really less painful? i wouldnt want to die any of them tbh

and whys this in the sheffield chat section?
its about a school in rotherham :confused:
But the thread isnt dealing with the treatment of the animals.Its about choice and being informed ete.:help:

You have no point prioryx. Before you get all angry about something, try asking yourself "why does it matter?"

... and brooksy, I thought that you weren't trying to go down that path? I hope that you weren't fibbing to us. :nono:


I object to you acusing me of being angry. To be a Mod must require the ability to interpret from the written word the feelings of the author.
And is censorship of valid points also the job of the Mod. I thought the Mods job was to be impartial. and that if they had any personal points to make they should be made not under the umbrella of the Mod status.l

But the thread isnt dealing with the treatment of the animals.Its about choice and being informed ete.:help:
No it's not. You might as well insist on being informed what colour socks the teacher is wearing. Halal meat is of absolutely no consequence to anything other than the schools budget!

No it's not. You might as well insist on being informed what colour socks the teacher is wearing. Halal meat is of absolutely no consequence to anything other than the schools budget!
So whats the title of the thread and what is the debate about.Im extremley confused yet again.::confused:

But the thread isnt dealing with the treatment of the animals.Its about choice and being informed ete.:help:

well then theres absolutely no need to panic, if the meats exactly the same, not a health risk, tastes exactly the same, no problem.
the only problem you see is that its classified as a muslim way to kill for meat. that is your problem.
take away the muslim part and theres no difference whatsoever.

It wouldnt surprise me if halal meat is slightly more expensive than regular.

It wouldnt surprise me if halal meat is slightly more expensive than regular.
nah thats vegetarian food :(

well then theres absolutely no need to panic, if the meats exactly the same, not a health risk, tastes exactly the same, no problem.
the only problem you see is that its classified as a muslim way to kill for meat. that is your problem.
take away the muslim part and theres no difference whatsoever.
So your last post was to do with this issue in what way then.:confused:

Jaberwocky, the expense (apparently) is in a kitchen having to produce 2 different sets of food, so it's easier to serve halal to everyone.

This thread is about choice nothing else, everyone is going on about the meat, it,s not about the meat it,s about choice why does everyone go off at tangents to the thread

This thread is about choice nothing else, everyone is going on about the meat, it,s not about the meat it,s about choice why does everyone go off at tangents to the thread

whys there have to be choice?
there is no choice

the animals killed, the animal dies, it gets cooked, and it gets eaten
does it matter if its halal or not?
as ive said the only people that complain are peaple that dont like muslims as they see halal as a muslim way to kill things.

as i see it its all cruel how animals get killed for meat anyway, doesnt matter if its halal or not tbh

whys there have to be choice?
there is no choice

the animals killed, the animal dies, it gets cooked, and it gets eaten
does it matter if its halal or not?
as ive said the only people that complain are peaple that dont like muslims as they see halal as a muslim way to kill things.

as i see it its all cruel how animals get killed for meat anyway, doesnt matter if its halal or not tbh

Well said, It is just about Muslim bashing for the sake of it, I tell ya this forum's obsessed with Muslims, every aspect of a Muslims way of life has been discussed on here ten times over, I think this forum needs psychiatrist's for (MOB) Muslim Obsessional Behavoiur.

The story from Oakwood School in Rotherham is that the headmistress told parents & pupils that only Halal chicken would be served for Xmas dinner as 20% of the children are muslim. After complaints from parents & Denis McShane MP, she has capitulated and put ordinary turkey on instead but says that the school has been feeding ALL the children entirely on halal meat for a long time, unknown to them and their parents. Should she be sacked?

So what ?
Non muslims can eat halal meat with no problem but muslims are only allowed to eat halal.
I eat halal often and I will challenge you to tell the difference.
It's not like it will poison the kids or turn them into suicide bombers.
Chill out.

So what ?
Non muslims can eat halal meat with no problem but muslims are only allowed to eat halal.
I eat halal often and I will challenge you to tell the difference.
It's not like it will poison the kids or turn them into suicide bombers.
Chill out.

zactly


some people think you eat something different and turn into osama bin laden or someat

Surely this is not just about choice of meat but also about religious freedom?, if it was just about the way the animal is slaughtered then there would be little difference...... but if i were a practicing christian (which i am not) i would not be happy about my child being given meat that had been prayed over or blessed as part of a religious ritual, surely this would be offensive?? .
And before anyone gets the wrong idea i am one of the least racist, and intolerant persons you are likely to meet, but it seems to me that if the chosen religion of each group if observed and carefully practiced it is something very important to them, and as such surely one should not be imposed upon the other.

zactly


some people think you eat something different and turn into osama bin laden or someat

Although I had a kebab the other day which was Halal meat & did think about becoming a suicide bomber, especially after how it reacted with my bowels, I could of made a homemade bomb dead easy, especially with the burning sensation of the chilli sauce.

You've not made it clear why you would boycott an establishment that serves halal. Is this because you believe it to be more cruel than other methods of killing?
Yes, which bit of this didn't you understand, Halibut?:

The halal/kosher issue has some parallels with fox-hunting (the banning of which I support) in that, irrespective of technical arguments around the efficacy of different methods of killing, it is the premeditated sadism which many people find repugnant.

You're objecting to "premeditated sadism"? Give over. Show me an animal happy to go to it's death and you might have an argument there. As it is... there is none.

I expect many times we go for an "Indian" the meat is halal killed but I don't think any of us bother or ask for a choice - and I'm sure most of the meat eaten in this country up to about 100 years ago was killed in a similar way to halal (minus the prayers).

You're objecting to "premeditated sadism"? Give over. Show me an animal happy to go to it's death and you might have an argument there. As it is... there is none.
The process should be a purely functional one and not governed by religious superstition, whether Muslim or Jewish.

Most of my take-aways are Chinese. If I went to an Indian restaurant/take-away [and many "Indian" restaurants aren't actually Indian] and it advertised itself as selling halal - as some do - I'd boycott it.

I can tell you why, cos most 'ethnic food' in this country are already adapted to the Western taste buds, that is why ! (Talk about trying to integrate, but yet get thrown back at you.) They are not out to cheat you, but if they don't suit the majority of the diners, then they too would be out of business. Did you know how various 'British Ethnic' dishes are derived from ? I don't think most eating establishments are out to cheat you. However, you have to understand why a 'typical' so called 'Indian' restaurant are actually of Bangladesh food. If you care to notice the next time you go to a chinese or an Indian restaurant, they will not advertise as 'chinese' or 'Indian' restaurant as such. I know, cos I've worked in the industry. It's either the people that do their adverts or their signs which gets it wrong. Most chinese restaurants I know, will specify to say 'Cantonese' dishes. Cos that is where it originate from. (Ok, apart from their choco desserts or ice-cream which are Western influenced.) If anything, I wouldn't mind seeing more authentic dishes out there. Most talented chefs cannot sustain the UK's industry. They really can't. It's almost a diner driven industry, that is for sure. "Customer is King". Even if customer want an "authentic" chinese dish the way that they have always brought up to believe, well... you got it. (The industry is slowly changing, and I am glad that it is.)

It took me a while to understand that "Chicken Tikka Masala" do not exist outside of the UK. lol... However, I have grown to like it too.

On the schools issue, if it is not cost effective to serve two types of meat in one school then Muslim and non-Muslim pupils should be taught in separate schools.
Yes, what an uproar that would be. "Ohhh... *they* are not integrating, but very insular" etc etc etc. :rolleyes:

I don't understand this thread. I can see people getting very worked up. However, what are people mad about exactly ? Seriously ask yourself these questions, is it because...

1) the meat is halah ?
2) the headteacher did not tell the parents what her action was ? (Should she tell every aspect of her decisions ?)
3) do you expect schools to be more Christian-influenced, even down to the small aspects of ingredients in meals ?
4) the way that animals are killed in order to be labelled as 'halal' ?
5) people are being so argumentative that, you have to stand your ground until you are heard, and accepted ?


Ok. Now, I want to say something.

1) Do you allow your children to eat things like burgers or chips at school ?
- If so, then isn't using basic ingredients like meat better than pre-prepared junk food which are sold cheap to schools ? (By the way, do you even *know* the crap that goes into some of these so called junk food?)

2) Do those of you who oppose it so strongly ever felt as strongly about the quality of food that your child have at school ?
- Yes, why be angry at the religious aspect and not at the health aspect. They're your children !

3) Do you actually know how animals are slaughtered in this country ? How many of those animals go to different eating establishments ? How food arrive on your table ?

4) Did you know that Bagels are actually Jewish food items ?
- I don't know whether the ones sold in the likes of Sainsbury's are actually in accordance to how it should be made. Does this not bother you ?

5) Did you ever watch those Jamie Oliver tv programmes on food in school ?
- The budget for food is very low, and the quality very poor. Especially the junk food. People complained of school food, even when I was a kid. I must admit that the cooks are not great at flavouring, but at least it still was freshly made on the day back then.

6) Do you know that, even some muslim believers also eat non-halal food ? Some will be sinned for it, I'm sure. Others will just try as much as they can to find out if something is halal or not. Some don't expect to follow it *as* strictly.

The point im trying to make, which isnt against muslims or anyone else is the fact is that parents in schools have very little if any input or information into whats been given nutrionally to there kids.If parents dont want there kids eating halal meat then so be it.


There is no group, religion, or sect which forbids the eating of halal meat. The only possible reason that anybody could object to it, is to cause tensions between Muslims and others.

OK, so this topic is about choice, not religion.

What exactly do you want a choice about? Should schools send home a survey every week asking what sauces they should stock, what colour chairs they should have, how much they should spend on carpet repairs?

I may be wrong. Would you also advocate (and demand, as is being done here) asking parents if home-grown vegetables were OK, and what temperature the custard was, and what sauces should be stocked (etc?)

or is it just the issue of Halal meat?

.... but if i were a practicing christian (which i am not) i would not be happy about my child being given meat that had been prayed over or blessed as part of a religious ritual, surely this would be offensive??

No, it wouldn't. As a Christian, you'd be free to eat anything and everything, regardless of how it was prepared. The fact that it's been purified for Muslim, or Jewish, purposes does not affect in the slightest its suitability to Christians.

I don't understand this thread. I can see people getting very worked up. However, what are people mad about exactly ? Seriously ask yourself these questions, is it because...

1) the meat is halah ?
2) the headteacher did not tell the parents what her action was ? (Should she tell every aspect of her decisions ?)
3) do you expect schools to be more Christian-influenced, even down to the small aspects of ingredients in meals ?
4) the way that animals are killed in order to be labelled as 'halal' ?
5) people are being so argumentative that, you have to stand your ground until you are heard, and accepted ?


Ok. Now, I want to say something.

1) Do you allow your children to eat things like burgers or chips at school ?
- If so, then isn't using basic ingredients like meat better than pre-prepared junk food which are sold cheap to schools ? (By the way, do you even *know* the crap that goes into some of these so called junk food?)

2) Do those of you who oppose it so strongly ever felt as strongly about the quality of food that your child have at school ?
- Yes, why be angry at the religious aspect and not at the health aspect. They're your children !

3) Do you actually know how animals are slaughtered in this country ? How many of those animals go to different eating establishments ? How food arrive on your table ?

4) Did you know that Bagels are actually Jewish food items ?
- I don't know whether the ones sold in the likes of Sainsbury's are actually in accordance to how it should be made. Does this not bother you ?

5) Did you ever watch those Jamie Oliver tv programmes on food in school ?
- The budget for food is very low, and the quality very poor. Especially the junk food. People complained of school food, even when I was a kid. I must admit that the cooks are not great at flavouring, but at least it still was freshly made on the day back then.

6) Do you know that, even some muslim believers also eat non-halal food ? Some will be sinned for it, I'm sure. Others will just try as much as they can to find out if something is halal or not. Some don't expect to follow it *as* strictly.


most of those will be answered NO

but they still hate muslims, thats the problem

OK, so this topic is about choice, not religion.

What exactly do you want a choice about? Should schools send home a survey every week asking what sauces they should stock, what colour chairs they should have, how much they should spend on carpet repairs?

I may be wrong. Would you also advocate (and demand, as is being done here) asking parents if home-grown vegetables were OK, and what temperature the custard was, and what sauces should be stocked (etc?)

or is it just the issue of Halal meat?
Maybe this is about choice. Cos I don't understand exactly what is going on.

I would also like to point out that, a lot of meat served in the UK are actually halal meat. Okay, some people may know this already, some may not. I'm one of those people who already know it. Only when I learnt what 'halal' meant. It is also why some or rather, many Muslims can have other ethnic food as their main diet. Some stronger believers, won't accept the quality by word of mouth, and those people may not frequent a place which may not be officially endorsed as serving halal meat. Some people will just frequent others who they know the owners are muslim, and they also serve halal food.

Maybe a few of you feel very strongly in knowing where your food source comes from, and really want to have a say. Well... I guess now is the time to be heard, I suppose. Only if you do truly believe it though. For some parents, they may not be as particular how an animal is killed before cooking it.

Surely this is not just about choice of meat but also about religious freedom?, if it was just about the way the animal is slaughtered then there would be little difference...... but if i were a practicing christian (which i am not) i would not be happy about my child being given meat that had been prayed over or blessed as part of a religious ritual, surely this would be offensive?? .
And before anyone gets the wrong idea i am one of the least racist, and intolerant persons you are likely to meet, but it seems to me that if the chosen religion of each group if observed and carefully practiced it is something very important to them, and as such surely one should not be imposed upon the other.
Good point. For those parents who feel strongly about it, they might have already taken their kids away and self-educate them at home or something.

I'm not a Buddhist or religious, but my mom are a little geared towards buddhism. I was still taught to sing hymns at school. I also sometimes attend church with my friend.

If we must explore religion and whether it caters for two religion. Well... some believers of any religion would be flexible. As long as in their heart, they only have the one God/religion. Then that is all that matters. People still have to function in their everyday life. You still have to live a 'good life' whatever your religion.

:rolleyes:

These points have been made all over this thread but to bring them together:

A) Most people here will have eaten meat that is killed in this way because, although not the most widespread method of slaughter it is common in 'normal' slaughterhouses/meat production plants in this country. Especially if you eat small production 'organic' meat.

B) Of course Muslims would complain if served non-halal meat, it's against their religious beliefs. Being served halal meat is not against any other religion.

C) What kind of person would object to their child being fed meat because a prayer had been said over it?!

D) Funny how people who complain about this don't care about the antibiotics and other drugs stuffed into the animal, or battery conditions which inflict suffering on their entire lives, and yet a few seconds of death is cruel?!? (Which is a fruitless argument anyway, see point A).

E) It isn't about 'the way it was done'. There is no viable reason for anyone to have objections about their child eating halal meat (as it's no different to any other as we've already established), so why on earth should they have been consulted?

HALAL
'Halal' is an Arabic word meaning 'lawful' or 'permitted'. The opposite of Halal is 'Haram', which means 'unlawful' or 'prohibited'. Halal and Haram are universal terms that apply to all facets of life. However, here we use these terms only in relation to meat and poultry products. All foods are considered Halal except the following, which are Haram:

• Pork/swine and its by-products
• Animals improperly slaughtered or dead before slaughtering
• Carrion or dead animals
• Animals killed in the name of anyone other than Allah (God), and lawful animals not slaughtered according to Islamic rites. (Fish is exempt from slaughtering).
• Carnivorous animals, and animals with fangs such as tigers, lions, cats, etc.
• Birds that have talons with which they catch their prey such as owls, eagles, etc.
• Land animals without external ears
• Animals which Islam forbids to kill such as scorpions, centipedes, rats, etc.
• Insects which Islam forbids to kill such as bees, etc.
• Animals which have toxins, poison or produce ill effects when eaten such as some fish, etc.
• Amphibian animals such as crocodiles, turtles, frogs, etc.
• Blood and blood by-products, faeces and urine, and placental tissue
• Almost all reptiles and insects, such as lice, flies, etc.
• Wine, ethyl alcohol, spirits and intoxicants such as poisonous and intoxicating plants
• Foods contaminated with any of the above products
• Foods not free from contamination while being prepared or processed with anything considered Najiis (filthy)
• Foods processed, made, produced, manufactured and /or stored using utensils, equipment and/or machinery that have been not cleansed according to Islamic Shariah Law and Islamic Rites

KOSHER
All animals are certified Organically-reared and all produce is then certified Kosher
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not that bad is it ?

Ok, I've just spent an hour reading this thread (I'm not that slow at reading, but I'm also watching a film), and think I have the answer to why people who disagree with this, disagree. (based on a couple of posts that stood out to me)

Ok, if this is true....
It wouldnt surprise me if halal meat is slightly more expensive than regular.

then, i would consider this.....
Jaberwocky, the expense (apparently) is in a kitchen having to produce 2 different sets of food, so it's easier to serve halal to everyone.

... to answer the thread argument. Tony, i will explain why i highlighted the word 'easier'.

My example then, based on Tony and Jabs' posts.

Lets say a days non halal meat = £1000
Lets say a days halal meat is = £1200
and to serve both types of meat = £1400

Then the argument could be that the $1200 option is the easiest because it serves everyone.
But the cheapest, £1000, suits the majority (80/20).

So...... the expense has been increased by the minority, which is what might upset people.

I'm not sure if that will make sense, so i'm going to post it, and read it and edit it!!

ash

edit: I spaced something out, to make easier reading, but suprisingly, i haven't spotted a typo

[QUOTE=upinwath]
KOSHER
All animals are certified Organically-reared and all produce is then certified Kosher
[/KOSHER]

Thats not the general reading of Kosher (http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm#Shechitah).

HALAL
All foods are considered Halal except the following, which are Haram:

• Animals which Islam forbids to kill such as scorpions, centipedes, rats, etc.
• Insects which Islam forbids to kill such as bees, etc.
• Blood and blood by-products, faeces and urine, and placental tissue
• Almost all reptiles and insects, such as lice, flies, etc.
been not cleansed according to Islamic Shariah Law and Islamic Rites

Mr Wath, as I always like to point out, I'm not religious.
But I'm with Islam with the few items of food that are mentioned here.

Who in there right mind would eat lice????

ash

Ok, I've just spent an hour reading this thread (I'm not that slow at reading, but I'm also watching a film), and think I have the answer to why people who disagree with this, disagree. (based on a couple of posts that stood out to me)

Ok, if this is true....


then, i would consider this.....


... to answer the thread argument. Tony, i will explain why i highlighted the word 'easier'.

My example then, based on Tony and Jabs' posts.

Lets say a days non halal meat = £1000
Lets say a days halal meat is = £1200
and to serve both types of meat = £1400

Then the argument could be that the $1200 option is the easiest because it serves everyone.
But the cheapest, £1000, suits the majority (80/20).

So...... the expense has been increased by the minority, which is what might upset people.

I'm not sure if that will make sense, so i'm going to post it, and read it and edit it!!

ash

edit: I spaced something out, to make easier reading, but suprisingly, i haven't spotted a typo

Nice argument but using these figures the price has actually been reduced to suit everyone.

Nice argument but using these figures the price has actually been reduced to suit everyone.

It wasn't an argument max. I try to keep out of arguments in long threads when I haven't been involved from the early stages, but I'm a keen reader and when I haven't got my opinions in early like this thread. I try to work out where both sides are coming from.

One side might be:

using these figures the price has actually been reduced to suit everyone

the other might be:

the 20% minority have increased the cost for the 80% majority.

ash

its not going to kill or harm these children just because they are eating halal meat. only difference is the way the animal is killed, so what, stop moaning and get over it.

For those saying halal meat is more expensive i don't think it is...my mum buys halal lamb chops from her local ASDA because they're cheaper than 'regular' lamb chops.

:rolleyes:


B) Of course Muslims would complain if served non-halal meat, it's against their religious beliefs. Being served halal meat is not against any other religion.
I believe it would be actually if you really took your religion seriously.
C) What kind of person would object to their child being fed meat because a prayer had been said over it?!


As above really.

whys there have to be choice?
there is no choice

the animals killed, the animal dies, it gets cooked, and it gets eaten
does it matter if its halal or not?
as ive said the only people that complain are peaple that dont like muslims as they see halal as a muslim way to kill things.

as i see it its all cruel how animals get killed for meat anyway, doesnt matter if its halal or not tbh

Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah!

This is simply about people hearing about a 'foreign thing', sold by 'foreign butchers', for 'foreign people'.

Anyone would think this was Royston Vasey ........

If you're bothered about how animals die for your plate, then don't eat them.

C.]As far as I'm concerned, meat is meat - I was brought up a vegetarian, and still eat little of it but any practice to kill animals is pretty grim - chickens are held upside down, stunned in an electric bath then have their throat slit with a machine. Most go through all of it consciously.

Little chicks are gassed to death if they aren't right for the meat.

Don't get me wrong, I eat chicken, bacon, sausage and wouldn't force my opinions on anyone, but don't kid yourself; there is no humane way of slaughtering animals for us to eat.
And then of course there is the issue of how the animals are treated in their life before slaughter.... I thought this picture may distress you all....
Battery chickens (http://www.animalactivism.org/documents/photos/med_19672_battery-cages4.jpg)

But if that doesn't,
read this and make your eyes bleed (http://www.animalfreedom.org/english/information/abuses.html)

Well said, It is just about Muslim bashing for the sake of it, I tell ya this forum's obsessed with Muslims, every aspect of a Muslims way of life has been discussed on here ten times over, I think this forum needs psychiatrist's for (MOB) Muslim Obsessional Behavoiur.

Don't say that that or they'll want to rule ........

Moonbird

On what religious grounds would a serious Christian object to eating Halal meat? As far as i know cows / sheep /chickens don't have a religion.

Or do you believe that somehow Muslim prayers can contaminate the meat??

Moonbird

On what religious grounds would a serious Christian object to eating Halal meat? As far as i know cows / sheep /chickens don't have a religion.

Or do you believe that somehow Muslim prayers can contaminate the meat??
Contaminate is not a word i would use.... and muslim is not the point i am making it could be any religion,i dont really like the way you are twisting what i said to make me sound anti mulim.
Do all religions pray to the same god? that is open to debate, but essentially i would say not otherwise they would all choose the same religion surely.

I really can't see why meat eaters would have a problem with eating halal meat (apart from using it as a cover to have a go at Muslims obviously). From my perspective as a vegetarian the halal method of slaughter seems no better or worse than the way most cows in the UK are slaughtered.

To all those claiming halal slaughter is cruel I’d just ask you do you eat chicken? Because halal slaughter doesn’t even begin to approach the suffering your average supermarket bought chicken endures in their short unhappy lives.

Contaminate is not a word i would use.... and muslim is not the point i am making it could be any religion,i dont really like the way you are twisting what i said to make me sound anti mulim.
Do all religions pray to the same god? that is open to debate, but essentially i would say not otherwise they would all choose the same religion surely.
How is this supposed to be an answer to Longcol’s question? Which was:

‘On what religious grounds would a serious Christian object to eating Halal meat?’

Now I can think of some religious types who probably wouldn’t be able to eat halal meat Orthodox Jews for example, however I’m not aware of any doctrinal reason why your average Christian wouldn’t.

Halal and Jewish foods are advertised as such in all supermarkets for the benefit of all customers who can either take them or leave them.

I think they should also be advertised in schools that use them because there may be some pupils who genuinely believe that the method of killing (which the RSPCA has long objected to) is cruel to animals and subjects them to an even greater fear than that of an Engish abbatoir when they are entering it, and if it was advertised as such they would be able to refuse it on those grounds — which as far as they are concerned have nothing at all to do with religion.

In Januuary 2007 I will be opening a shop in my area, which is entirely devoted to selling a product (not eatable) which can be manufactured in two ways. One way, the product is made of entirely natural ingredients and the process is equally natural. The other way, similarly, the product is made of natural ingedients but there is a difference in the process.

Being an entirely open and honest businessman I will be placing posters and brochures in my shop for everyone to read so that (a) they know they are getting that first process and not the second, and (b) so that vegans, vegetarians, people with sensitive skins and those who prefer this product to be entirely natural are assured that what they are getting is the real, accredited thing.

If a head teacher knows that some children object to animal cruelty — and both Jewish and Halal meats fall into that category — they should not mislead them into eating what they would not touch with a barge-pole if they knew.

Honesty is always the best policy, and the head teacher is being a lot less than honest!

If a head teacher knows that some children object to animal cruelty — and both Jewish and Halal meats fall into that category — they should not mislead them into eating what they would not touch with a barge-pole if they knew.

Honesty is always the best policy, and the head teacher is being a lot less than honest!

Quite :thumbsup:

Halal and Jewish foods are advertised as such in all supermarkets for the benefit of all customers who can either take them or leave them.

I think they should also be advertised in schools that use them because there may be some pupils who genuinely believe that the method of killing (which the RSPCA has long objected to) is cruel to animals and subjects them to an even greater fear than that of an Engish abbatoir when they are entering it, and if it was advertised as such they would be able to refuse it on those grounds — which as far as they are concerned have nothing at all to do with religion.
As these are school diners the chickens involved almost certainly were farmed intensively and as such suffered appallingly (which the RSPCA also most certainly objects to) why exactly would pupils be unconcerned about the atrocious suffering intensively farmed chickens experience for pretty much their entire lives but terribly concerned about the last few moments of their benighted lives?

If a head teacher knows that some children object to animal cruelty — and both Jewish and Halal meats fall into that category — they should not mislead them into eating what they would not touch with a barge-pole if they knew.

Honesty is always the best policy, and the head teacher is being a lot less than honest!
In what way was the head not honest seeing as according to the OP she told parents that the food would be halal?

OK, I saw this when it started and now it's 10 pages long. I stil don't see why the hell it was started. If you eat meat and are muslim then you would only want to eat halal meat. If you eat meat and are not muslim then you eat meat. You have no real idea where it comes from unless you buy either free range / organic / halal. If you eat anything that's processed or your kids do then why the hell are you moaning? You have not killed the animal, you have no idea where it came from, you are just being a **** for no reason other than ignorance.
Saying your teacher should be sacked for trying to be aware or peoples beliefs when you really have none is just stupid, get a grip.

I would like to point out something.

• Foods processed, made, produced, manufactured and /or stored using utensils, equipment and/or machinery that have been not cleansed according to Islamic Shariah Law and Islamic Rites

I personally don't think that the meat is strictly halal because of this clause. However, I don't doubt that the head teacher may not know how the process of handling halal meat would then still be considered halal. I really don't doubt that most muslims would mind on this subject because a lot of my friends in the past had considered this option. (How Halal is halal meat ?) People just work their way around the system, and don't necessarily demand the strictest of conditions. I would dare say that most muslims who think they are buying halal meat actually believe in their good faith that that they are halal meat. I actually think that it's a case of small details. You can take or leave it.

Halal and Jewish foods are advertised as such in all supermarkets for the benefit of all customers who can either take them or leave them.
As I mentioned above, it is actually advertised as such, but how strictly kosher or halal is it ? I think those strong believers who would want to follow it strictly will even question the supplier, and the processing method used. Just like an average vegetarian, who may go as far as wanting to know that the utensils have not touched any meat at all. Some companies can have the 'v' label as being endorsed by the vegetarian society. I don't doubt that there are a handful of kosher or halal meat which may have equiavelent endorsement or recommendations. Actually, some suppliers/manufacturers' have already considered this type of question. Being a muslim believer, you can eat vegetarian food. For those that don't believe the label as strictly being halal, they would've bought the vegetarian option already.

they should also be advertised in schools that use them because there may be some pupils who genuinely believe that the method of killing (which the RSPCA has long objected to) is cruel to animals and subjects them to an even greater fear than that of an Engish abbatoir when they are entering it, and if it was advertised as such they would be able to refuse it on those grounds — which as far as they are concerned have nothing at all to do with religion.
The fact is that, most children who eat meat don't even know that it came from an animal. However, if we, parents want to know the ethical side of the food source, then this is down to the government to control and to process it. I don't doubt that this will bring up issues of in trading within the EU.

In Januuary 2007 I will be opening a shop in my area, which is entirely devoted to selling a product (not eatable) which can be manufactured in two ways. One way, the product is made of entirely natural ingredients and the process is equally natural. The other way, similarly, the product is made of natural ingedients but there is a difference in the process.

Being an entirely open and honest businessman I will be placing posters and brochures in my shop for everyone to read so that (a) they know they are getting that first process and not the second, and (b) so that vegans, vegetarians, people with sensitive skins and those who prefer this product to be entirely natural are assured that what they are getting is the real, accredited thing.
I think you will find that it is harder to control every stage of the supplying process and to keep that standard high than you think it is by just a mere label as such.

There are so many ways of production and manufacturing that, a slight condition which is not taken strictly would actually devoid that endorsement.

A lot of people advertises GM-free food or some who is not too sure of the process won't advert it as GM-free either. Some people just believe in faith that what the products are sold have been given at least some thoughts of it to be GM-free, vegetarian, or halal... as advertised.

Unless you rear food and kill it, and cook it yourself, there is always going to be that bit of doubt.

If a head teacher knows that some children object to animal cruelty — and both Jewish and Halal meats fall into that category — they should not mislead them into eating what they would not touch with a barge-pole if they knew.

Honesty is always the best policy, and the head teacher is being a lot less than honest!
I think if a teacher thought that religion would play such a big issue, then she would have considered twice thinking about what she was doing. In actual fact, unless there are strong Orthodox Jews or Christians who attend her school, they may not be otherwise care either way.

I really do feel sorry for this head teacher since she is now hung up publically for her decision which could be made just based on honesty.

For those that work in the food industry, you would know the score. For those that don't know it...well, you're learning something at least.

she served halal meat for one reason to comply with the muslim way, because if she didn,t there would be another round of court cases, demonstrations,we are being victimised for being muslim etc.

she served halal meat for one reason to comply with the muslim way, because if she didn,t there would be another round of court cases, demonstrations,we are being victimised for being muslim etc.

Well exactly. If Muslims have to have meat prepared a certain way and non-Muslims can eat meat that's prepared any old how, it's a no-brainer. You prepare it to suit Muslims, because that ALSO suits everyone else (unless Orthodox Jewry doesn't accept halal meat as kosher, which I'm not sure about).


There's still no reason for anyone to object.

does this school serve a varied menu ,can a non muslim have pork or has everyone just got to have the same ?

does this school serve a varied menu ,can a non muslim have pork or has everyone just got to have the same ?

Not knowing thew school personally pk0, I can't give you a definitive answer, but my experience of schools suggests that the answer is almost certainly yes.

well thats ok then fair play for all,because tolerance of a persons way of life works both ways its not a one way street

I will not be surprised if pork is still on the menu. It's a workaround and balance to suit everybody.

The provision of halal meat as a 'default setting' in certain schools does raise important issues, not least about how the cultural sensitivities of one section of society appear to be taking precedence, or at the very least afforded greater importance, than those of others. This story is very similar to the recent very bad example set by Nottingham City Council to align headstones in a new cemetery in accordance with muslim practice, even though only around 20% of the population is muslim (or, similarly, the example of a muslim school requiring female non-muslim pupils to wear veils as a condition of admission).

Although the cases in point may appear trivial, they are potentially very significant. As I have said before, there seems to be a fad in certain organisations to avoid upsetting the muslim community at all costs, or to grant them special dispensations, even at the risk of taking the interests or preferences of the majority for granted - a potentially dangerous course, because of the resentment it is likely to cause in the long run, not least because it will come to be viewed as a form of creeping cultural islamification by default. The reasons for this fad are no doubt varied, but they probably include more than a small element of pre-emptive grovelling to an increasingly restive, assertive and disputatious minority.

The provision of halal meat as a 'default setting' in certain schools does raise important issues, not least about how the cultural sensitivities of one section of society appear to be taking precedence, or at the very least afforded greater importance, than those of others. This story is very similar to the recent very bad example set by Nottingham City Council to align headstones in a new cemetery in accordance with muslim practice, even though only around 20% of the population is muslim (or, similarly, the example of a muslim school requiring female non-muslim pupils to wear veils as a condition of admission).

Although the cases in point may appear trivial, they are potentially very significant. As I have said before, there seems to be a fad in certain organisations to avoid upsetting the muslim community at all costs, or to grant them special dispensations, even at the risk of taking the interests or preferences of the majority for granted - a potentially dangerous course, because of the resentment it is likely to cause in the long run, not least because it will come to be viewed as a form of creeping cultural islamification by default. The reasons for this fad are no doubt varied, but they probably include more than a small element of pre-emptive grovelling to an increasingly restive, assertive and disputatious minority.

<<<<<^^^^Exactly what he said. He uses bigger words than I do! :hihi:

The provision of halal meat as a 'default setting' in certain schools does raise important issues, not least about how the cultural sensitivities of one section of society appear to be taking precedence, or at the very least afforded greater importance, than those of others. This story is very similar to the recent very bad example set by Nottingham City Council to align headstones in a new cemetery in accordance with muslim practice, even though only around 20% of the population is muslim (or, similarly, the example of a muslim school requiring female non-muslim pupils to wear veils as a condition of admission).

Although the cases in point may appear trivial, they are potentially very significant. As I have said before, there seems to be a fad in certain organisations to avoid upsetting the muslim community at all costs, or to grant them special dispensations, even at the risk of taking the interests or preferences of the majority for granted - a potentially dangerous course, because of the resentment it is likely to cause in the long run, not least because it will come to be viewed as a form of creeping cultural islamification by default. The reasons for this fad are no doubt varied, but they probably include more than a small element of pre-emptive grovelling to an increasingly restive, assertive and disputatious minority.
Well, I think these people are stupid. I do. Do you know how it comes across to me ? They're not even worthy of sitting on the seat of powers if that is all that they can think of. I think most people will want the leader to be a fair one. How do you do that ? Not to favour one over another surely. Which is what you sum up basically.

I've read many threads that pops up on the SF, at first, I find it some of it extremely racially inclined, yet now that I've gotten to know a few people here and there. I can see where they are coming from. What I don't understand is that, this 'Islamaphobia' is maybe a self-fulfilling prophecy in itself. Now, is that due to the demands of this country's muslim believers ? Is it ? How can life be a certain way before 9/11, and now life is not ? Everything is about Islam. Well, to be honest, I'm tired of it. If 9/11 or 7/11 did not occur, would this religion be highlighted as such ? It really begs to be believed.

What it really highlights to me is that, a lot of people don't know the religion itself. Or rather, they are thinking that 'this is what a muslim person will do'. Well, they don't. A lot of British muslims already integrated into society. They have already addressed the issue of halal food themselves. Most have already decided to become vegetarians when going out. They have already adopted this decision.

With regards to this headstone thing with the city council. I think it's ludicrous. If burying a body in a cemetary already is considered as a Christian practice, then let it be so. Why change that practice ? If a muslim family decides to do something a certain way, I'm sure they will adapt and also make their own provisions. I know that if a member of my family passes away, the elders in my family will do it the traditional way. (According to our family.) Maybe it's partly superstitions, but we won't frequent someone's house for a set period of time while we mourn. However, I won't say that all chinese in this country are like that. Cos I know they are not. Neither will I make it an obvious issue that I *must* demand my government to change the laws so it makes my life easier. I think others should get to know their neighbours. Cos not everyone follows Islam exactly the same way. Just as much that, not everyone in this country who follow Christianity, the exact same way.

I think what a lot of people should realise is that, others ethnic minorities would wish integration in the sense that, certain things would be nice to have. Just every normal day things which does not impact others greatly. Other things, I don't think is worthy or is expected. What I come realise is that, a lot of people are doing things because of being on the defensive than it in in the aim of it being for everyone. It'll be nice to sit down to a meal with your colleagues, and have halal meat knowing that the restaurant supplies it without making a fuss. It'll be nice to drink just OJ in a pub with your colleagues without being stared at as being odd cos it's against your religion. However, nobody will make an issue of it. This has always been the case. It's nice to go to a club and appreciate the music for what it is, and dance without alcohols. This kind of clubs have already made an appearance, and people also integrate. RnB music are kind of mainstream now. People don't do it cos of 'integration'. Let the music speak for itself. Bhangra music was also a fad at one time. Cos it's been creativity changed to adapt to a Western pop musicality. It was popular at one time. To many, it's not even about race, but a style of modernism.

Whereas a burial to some on religious grounds are quite strongly felt. So why would the council think and change this ? In actual fact, some people may prefer to have an urn in their homes, or in their birth place, than they would consider a plot near a church. Things like this is a very personal issue, I think, and should let individuals have that choice. I doubt that many people realises how cemetaries are governed anyway. I certainly didn't know.

I personally would like to see, less of these trigger-happy decisions towards this so call integration. Integration happens naturally already whether people notices it or not.

Hacker has the chapter and verse for the Halal slaughter methods. These were included in ancient holy books as a kind of public health policy. The verses instucting followers not to eat dead meat make perfect sense in that you don't eat animals that have died a natural death and not been bled. You don't know what they've died of and in hot countries the meat goes off in a few hours.
But it's ridiculous to interpret this today in a cool country as not to eat meat that has been stunned before it's bled.
If an English slaughterman cut an animals throat without first stunning it unconscious he would quite rightly be liable for prosecution.
It's completely wrong that just for some outdated religious belief other faiths are allowed to get away with a barborous practise.
And it is extremely cruel, they take several minutes to die, not seconds, and if not tightly secured in a crush, thrash around in the most dreadful manner.
Thousands of animals are put through dreadful pain and fright because the government is afraid to grasp the nettle of religious slaughter.

this 'Islamaphobia' is maybe a self-fulfilling prophecy in itself.
this bit scares me, as people get fearful of islamics and then islamics get fearful of everybody else and the cycle grows and grows getting worse and worse, there wont be an end till either we all die, or both sides get more tolerant of others differences and find a way to live together again.



sorry shoeshine not very cheerfull :P

"Halal Meat" as we know it these days, is a term used more often for commercial profits than religious observance. Those who call their meat Halal, are in some way insinuating that any other meat is not Halal, or specifically the meat in the general grocery stores is not Halal. They make more money on their products by selling it more expensive while deceiving the naive public Moslems into believing that their meat is the only Halal meat for the Muslims.

You do not need to guess hard to understand the MERCY of the MOST merciful. God Almighty knows many Muslims will live in the middle of Christians and Jews and will be sharing their food and for this reason God told the Prophet Muhammed more than 1400 years ago, the following;

"Today, all good food is made lawful for you. The food of the people of the scripture (Jews & Christians) is LAWFUL (HALAL) for you......" 5:5


Interesting, no?

If an English slaughterman cut an animals throat without first stunning it unconscious he would quite rightly be liable for prosecution.


What an excellent point! Yet this practice still happens and will no doubt continue to do so.

We have laws in our country which help to prevent the needless cruelty to animals. However people choose to conveniently forget about them when it suits. I think they'd soon be shouting out for change if they were a cow/duck/lamb/chicken/etc. It's a good job that they're human then isn't it and don't have to face the atrocities that some of these animals have to endure.

I won't continue to rant on this thread about that because it wouldn't be appropriate.

The equation for me however is simple: I don't like what's happened; I don't agree with it for lots of different reasons (all of which I'm entitled to); and I won't change my opinion.

I suppose next I'll be deemed racist! :rolleyes:

*****************************************

Confucious say 'Man who live in glass house should get changed in basement'

Confucious say 'Man who live in glass house should get changed in basement'
Did he really say it like that ? In English as well ? :hihi:
I didn't think that basements were created back then in olden days of China. :suspect:

(Not that it really matters, and tbh, you could believe me cos I'm chinese, but you don't need to take everything I say 'as it is' either ! lol...)

The equation for me however is simple: I don't like what's happened; I don't agree with it for lots of different reasons (all of which I'm entitled to); and I won't change my opinion.
Sorry, just can't help to have my little bit of fun today. I think I do agree with you on the above. You are entitled, and I guess a lot of people have made their opinions be known, judging by this thread.

Did he really say it like that ? In English as well ? :hihi:
I didn't think that basements were created back then in olden days of China. :suspect:

(Not that it really matters, and tbh, you could believe me cos I'm chinese, but you don't need to take everything I say 'as it is' either ! lol...)


Sorry, just can't help to have my little bit of fun today. I think I do agree with you on the above. You are entitled, and I guess a lot of people have made their opinions be known, judging by this thread.

Laughs*

No, he didn't. I made it up, but it sounds fun :)

Confucious was a very wise man. If I was to meet him today, I would like him. I might even buy him a beer.

As you will know, Confucius himself had a simple moral and political teaching: to love others; to honor one's parents; to do what is right instead of what is of advantage; to practice 'reciprocity,' i.e. 'don't do to others what you would not want yourself'

I'm glad you agree with me Bago. That's good. It shows I'm not alone in my thinking. :)

Fortunately for me, I march to the beat of my own drum. I'm strong enough to stand up for my own beliefs, principles and value bases and to not allow myself to be bullied or patronised into changing them, and believe me there are those on the forum who continue to try :D

Have a good day my friend.

As these are school diners the chickens involved almost certainly were farmed intensively and as such suffered appallingly (which the RSPCA also most certainly objects to) why exactly would pupils be unconcerned about the atrocious suffering intensively farmed chickens experience for pretty much their entire lives but terribly concerned about the last few moments of their benighted lives?


In what way was the head not honest seeing as according to the OP she told parents that the food would be halal?

To answer your first question with a question, how do you know that pupils an not concerned. I cannot answer specifically but I would suspect that those who are concerned don’t eat chicken.

From what I’ve read, it seems that the head teacher only recently mentioned halal, but when she did she also mentioned that the school had been serving it for several months. During those several months she was therefore less than honest.

If an English slaughterman cut an animals throat without first stunning it unconscious he would quite rightly be liable for prosecution.
It's completely wrong that just for some outdated religious belief other faiths are allowed to get away with a barborous practise.
And it is extremely cruel, they take several minutes to die, not seconds, and if not tightly secured in a crush, thrash around in the most dreadful manner.
Thousands of animals are put through dreadful pain and fright because the government is afraid to grasp the nettle of religious slaughter.
To that a lot of us would argue - the 'English' (no doubt many halal slaughter workers are English) chickens, pigs etc. live long lives of misery in cramped conditions in dark stinking sheds. Many die slow horrible deaths before they can even reach an abattoir. What difference do the few minutes of death make?

As for the thrashing around bit, they do this whether stunned or not.

If people don't like the way an animal is killed then don't eat any meat. Your problem is solved and your conscience clear.

If you don't like Muslims - Bog off and learn that people are just people.

Lots of us eat Halal meat anyway unknowingly, for example loads Chinese take aways get their chicken from Halal suppliers because they often visit Asian cash & carry's to get other produce for their take aways. Also nearly all New Zealand lamb is Halal as their largest export markets are Muslim countries, but we still eat it! (if you google New Zealand Halal lamb you will find articles about this).

If people objected so strongly to the way Halal was slaughtered, then they wouldn't eat meat full stop. To me, if you are a meat eater, you don't really care how the animal is killed!

Maybe the school in question should have considered printing menus as we get in Sheffield primary schools which clearly state which meat is Halal. My son's school dinner menus clearly show each day, that there is always a vegetarian option, a meat option that usually but not always includes Halal meat, and a third alternative that may or may not include meat, but is not ususally Halal. Therefore, if I wanted my son to have school dinner, but didn't want him to have meat that was Halal, then I could choose that option for him! Easy peasy and no fuss and bother!

Lots of us eat Halal meat anyway unknowingly, for example loads Chinese take aways get their chicken from Halal suppliers because they often visit Asian cash & carry's to get other produce for their take aways. Also nearly all New Zealand lamb is Halal as their largest export markets are Muslim countries, but we still eat it! (if you google New Zealand Halal lamb you will find articles about this).

If people objected so strongly to the way Halal was slaughtered, then they wouldn't eat meat full stop. To me, if you are a meat eater, you don't really care how the animal is killed!

Maybe the school in question should have considered printing menus as we get in Sheffield primary schools which clearly state which meat is Halal. My son's school dinner menus clearly show each day, that there is always a vegetarian option, a meat option that usually but not always includes Halal meat, and a third alternative that may or may not include meat, but is not ususally Halal. Therefore, if I wanted my son to have school dinner, but didn't want him to have meat that was Halal, then I could choose that option for him! Easy peasy and no fuss and bother!


thats the point you had a choice

From what I’ve read, it seems that the head teacher only recently mentioned halal, but when she did she also mentioned that the school had been serving it for several months. During those several months she was therefore less than honest.

Would you expect a headteacher to notify pupils and their parents whenever s/he changed suppliers of all consumables at the school? If using a halal supplier was done for economic reasons, which most agree was the only reason, then why is this different from changing the company who supply pencils? A headteacher is, at the end of the day, a manager with responsibility for balancing a school budget.

Would you expect a headteacher to notify pupils and their parents whenever s/he changed suppliers of all consumables at the school? If using a halal supplier was done for economic reasons, which most agree was the only reason, then why is this different from changing the company who supply pencils? A headteacher is, at the end of the day, a manager with responsibility for balancing a school budget.

IF she bought non-halal meat and then served it what happens then 80% of the school are muslims

IF she bought non-halal meat and then served it what happens then 80% of the school are muslims

I should imagine that she would have notified the parents and pupils that the meat was non-halal. Eating halal meat is not a problem for all meat eaters, it's only bigots who have the problem.

[QUOTE=max]I should imagine that she would have notified the parents


why? she did not in the first instance

why? she did not in the first instance

You really are having trouble with this aren't you?

Muslims are not allowed to eat non-halal food (the rights and wrongs of this are irrelevant) whilst all other meat eaters do not seem to care how their meat is slaughtered. So, if the school is serving non-halal meat and there are Muslims attending the school then common sense and decency dictate that they should be notified. However, if on the other hand, as has happened in this case, the school switches to halal meat no-one is going to be affected in a negative way so there is no reason to tell anyone.

The issue is a simple one, it's only those who have a problem with Muslims in general who seem intent on making this into a more complex one.

Ive tried halal meat and ....the animal is slaughtered and bled slowly to death or something.
As long as the ...... animal hasnt died too horrible Id think it was fine, ....

I couldn't think of a more horrible way to die than to be bled to death slowly. These muslims are so crazy, do they honestly believe such barbarism is necessary?

If religion needs to be so barbaric then I don't need religion.

I should imagine that she would have notified the parents and pupils that the meat was non-halal. Eating halal meat is not a problem for all meat eaters, it's only bigots who have the problem.

Hang on, you're saying that because I dont want to eat Halal meat im a bigot? Surely not, please tell me I have taken that out of context.........

thats the point you had a choiceThe choice on WHAT though

You fail to see just how irrevelant Halal or non Halal meat is to a non muslim
bled to death slowly. These muslims are so crazyI imagine that bleeding to death is one of the least painful ways to die, actually. And what is slow about it? Just how long do you think it takes to pump blood out of an artery.. a couple of minutes at the most. Don't think I'd want a massive electric shock before getting a bolt in my head or whatever... And your 'crazy muslims' comment.. how ignorant. How many examples of 'crazy christians' or 'crazy non-muslims' would you like?
because I dont want to eat Halal meat im a bigot?Well yes, unless you can give a good reason not to. So far in this thread there have been non

Hang on, you're saying that because I dont want to eat Halal meat im a bigot? Surely not, please tell me I have taken that out of context.........


Happy to. You've taken it out of context.

To answer your first question with a question, how do you know that pupils an not concerned. I cannot answer specifically but I would suspect that those who are concerned don’t eat chicken.
What's the problem then? As the kids who are concerned about animal cruetly won't eat meat anyway regardless as to whether it's halal or not.

From what I’ve read, it seems that the head teacher only recently mentioned halal, but when she did she also mentioned that the school had been serving it for several months. During those several months she was therefore less than honest.
And can you link us to what you read?

And can you link us to what you read?

Here is a link......last paragraph.

Rotherham Advertiser (http://www.rotherhamadvertiser.co.uk/html/news/fp.asp?ID=6266)

I couldn't think of a more horrible way to die than to be bled to death slowly. These muslims are so crazy, do they honestly believe such barbarism is necessary?

If religion needs to be so barbaric then I don't need religion.
They aren't 'slowly bled to death' their throat is cut and they die very quickly, there was a documentary on TV recently about a slaughter house they did regular, kosher and halal slaughter there and so far as I could tell there was no significant difference in suffering for the animals killed.

As to the sanity of the demand that animals be killed in this way, if you accept the rather unlikely premise that a magic man in the sky made the world, odd demands from him like wanting animals to be killed in a certain way are nothing in comparison.

If there was a material difference between halal/kosher and non-halal/kosher meat, and say, for genetic-medical reasons non-halal/kosher was more harmful to people of a Muslim or Jewish background I might have more sympathy. However, the basis for halal and kosher is simply superstitious religious nonsense.

I'd say something similar in relation to a Christian group - such as the Jehovah's Witnesses - who have a hang-up about blood transfusions: superstitious religious nonsense!

Hang on, you're saying that because I dont want to eat Halal meat im a bigot? Surely not, please tell me I have taken that out of context.........

should we spell this out s l o w l y

halal / not halal is not the problem, its exactly the same meat, doesnt matter how its killed, the animal still suffers, dont like suffering dont eat meat.
the thing about being a bigot is about this whole thread, which is purely here to again apint muslims as bad people, or as nick griffin said...wicked people

should we spell this out s l o w l y

halal / not halal is not the problem, its exactly the same meat, doesnt matter how its killed, the animal still suffers, dont like suffering dont eat meat.
the thing about being a bigot is about this whole thread, which is purely here to again apint muslims as bad people, or as nick griffin said...wicked people

The Oakwood School is 20% or slightly higher Muslim children Fair enough, no probs there. But why should 80% of the pupils, non-Muslim kids, have to eat Halal chicken........and at a Christmas Meal to boot?

If it was the other way round, and the meal was designed for the majority non-Muslim kids there would be much more in the way of complaints from the Muslim children's parents. :|

Just to throw another spanner in the works ..... at one town where I lived and loved, the local abattoir had to close because of our over-zealous interpretation of EU regulations.

No longer suitable for normal use? but it was suitable for the local halal butchers to take over and use for their purposes.

It is no wonder that people get a little upset.

And your 'crazy muslims' comment.. how ignorant. How many examples of 'crazy christians' or 'crazy non-muslims' would you like?
Well yes, unless you can give a good reason not to.

It was just an after thought comment I added. I would say yes "Crazy Christians" if they bled their annimal food to death with all these knew technologies that we have which makes this already unpleasant practice somewhat more humane (is that the correct word?)

I say Crazy "jovenes witnesses" too because they'd rather die than have transplants or transfusions, like I say crazy to me.

I've stated it before but I'll state it again. Why do religions feel it's essential to stay with some traditions and with others they can continue in the same pace of technology???

The Oakwood School is 20% or slightly higher Muslim children Fair enough, no probs there. But why should 80% of the pupils, non-Muslim kids, have to eat Halal chicken........and at a Christmas Meal to boot?

If it was the other way round, and the meal was designed for the majority non-Muslim kids there would be much more in the way of complaints from the Muslim children's parents. :|

BECAUSE as weve said...........it being halal makes no difference to general meat eaters whatsoever
they eat mcdonlads, they eat turkey twizzlers, they eat halal chicken, no difference

BECAUSE as weve said...........it being halal makes no difference to general meat eaters whatsoever
they eat mcdonlads, they eat turkey twizzlers, they eat halal chicken, no difference

Traditionally Mel, animal slaughter techniques for food in most of the Western World has its origins in history.

The demands of slaughter systems originating to suit other parts of the world/religious beliefs are anathema to most people here.

So, what's wrong with having one system for one group, and another system for another. It can't be hard to organise both preferences in this case reported. It smacks of institutionalised multiculturalism being imposed on the majority of pupils to satisfy the needs of the minority of the children.

Is it acceptable, for example for Jewish people to accept their children eat "non-kosher" food at a school here when they are celebrating their main Jewish Festival in Britain, and would Muslims accept non-halal meat in a Muslim School, or even a Christian one from time-to-time? Of course not.
Hence the use long term, but undisclosed (until now) use of halal meat at Oakwood School IMO.

That's where I have to disagree with you Shoeshine. Personally, judging by this comment that peterw also made:

From what I’ve read, it seems that the head teacher only recently mentioned halal, but when she did she also mentioned that the school had been serving it for several months. During those several months she was therefore less than honest.
Correlating the above with the article quoted on the first post. The head teacher in question stated that she had already been using halal meat. I don't think she deliberately did that to be dishonest, but rather, I don't think that she thinks it is a choice that is down to parents.

However, because it is Christmas, and she wants to replace a non-halal turkey with a halal chicken so that muslim kids may also celebrate or have a dinner together. I think judging by her decision, I will agree with you that replacing a turkey with a chicken for Christmas is indeed ridiculous. Since turkey had always been associated with Christmas.

I don't think that she would have thought that halal meat was a problem at all. Otherwise, it would've been stated surely ? i.e. the choice is not down to parents to decide. In a way, if halal meat is not popular for religious reasons, then shouldn't the kids be going to a more religious school ? Whether they want it to be more Islamic, or more Christian.

I would be extremely angry if my children were only served Halal meat. IMO the cruelty involved in slaughtering the animal is totally unacceptable in this day and age.

If we are going to ban fox hunting, veal crates and battery hens then this falls into the same level of cruelty and should also be banned. However no politician in this country today has the cojones to advocate such a policy

The Head shouldn't be sacked, just learn from the mistake and ensure everyone has a choice from now on..

Gee, d'you think the school would serve free-range, organic chickens? Of course they use battery hens, so there's already the issue of animal welfare.

As far as he killing goes, Halal slaughter is quicker and more humane than non-halal killing. A qualified butcher slits the blood vessels which supply the brain, and the animal is therefore brain dead within seconds becausethe brain is starved of oxygen and nutrients. The animal does not "bleed to death". The blood is drained afterwards because halal food, like Jewish kosher food, is required to be blood free. It makes it keep better, as well as being a religious requirement. Compare this to a production line manned by untrained teenagers, stunning some chickens (but missing some) and then boiling them alive to kill them.

If you don't like the idea of killing things, don't eat meat. If you object to causing pain to animals, Halal and kosher are both better than normally killed poultry and food animals. So what's the objection here, exactly?

So what's the objection here, exactly?

Seeing as no one has commented on my reasoning to why people who appear to be annoyed in here about the more religious side of this debate, read post 174 by me, and i think it answers the question.

ash

When In Rome

Go and have an ice-cream.
Ho Ho, HO !

What’s all this nonsense about Muslims/Jews ‘having’ to eat Halal/Kosher food?

‘Having to do’ something suggests an order or requirement. For example, I have to wear a seatbelt in the car and I have to drink water to keep my body alive. In the first instance, there is a law (for all and based on the fact that not wearing a seatbelt is very likely to endanger my life should I be involved in a car accident) that demands I wear a seatbelt, in the second, drinking water is a requirement of human life (without it I will inevitably die).

Clearly in these cases, I ‘have to’ and there is good reason (legal or physical demand) to do so. However, there is no such good reason and ‘have to’ about not eating a particular food in the sense that I have described other than the order or requirement made by signing up to a particular belief system. The same may be said for vegetarianism (though there might be a much stronger case here for ‘good reason’ based around questions of eating another species and the environmental impact of raising those animals for consumption, but that’s another thread).

This then is a self-imposed order or requirement – and why should those who don’t share that belief system be bound by it? Moreover, why should this faith based requirement be imposed on children, presumably by parents of faith (though in this case, the school’s head)? This may not seem to be that important in this case, but consider those parents of faith who impose on their children their faith based requirement not to accept blood transfusions, even if this would result in the child’s death. Why is the one acceptable and the other not for aren’t the both equally as valid if you sign up to the twisted idea that religion should guide us in such everyday matters?

So, there is no ‘have to’ about eating halal/kosher food other than that constructed by believers and imposed on their children.

This doesn’t, of course, attempt the question of whether or not non-muslims/non-jews should give a monkey’s about how the animal is dispatched but does bring the so-called ‘have to’ into sharp relief.

Directly relevant to this thread is this article from the Economist:

Only halal meat and no pork available in University of Leicester’s canteens.
http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8057928

(As a pedantic note, the final paragraph is in error as those Malaysian students at SHU are almost exclusively Chinese).

What if I like pork chops, hot dogs, bacon rolls?
I shall be putting this article in my growing file of ‘creeping resurgence of religious influence of Britian, sub-file: Islamification’.

what happened to majority rules i should imagine halal food to more expensive as well so what are they doing without to provide them all with the requirements of the one in five :suspect:

Directly relevant to this thread is this article from the Economist:

Only halal meat and no pork available in University of Leicester’s canteens.
http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8057928

(As a pedantic note, the final paragraph is in error as those Malaysian students at SHU are almost exclusively Chinese).

What if I like pork chops, hot dogs, bacon rolls?
I shall be putting this article in my growing file of ‘creeping resurgence of religious influence of Britian, sub-file: Islamification’.
chinese love pork as i do couldnt stand it if i went there i would protest cant go off like that set of #####idiots:rant:

Directly relevant to this thread is this article from the Economist:

Only halal meat and no pork available in University of Leicester’s canteens.
http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8057928

(As a pedantic note, the final paragraph is in error as those Malaysian students at SHU are almost exclusively Chinese).

What if I like pork chops, hot dogs, bacon rolls?
I shall be putting this article in my growing file of ‘creeping resurgence of religious influence of Britian, sub-file: Islamification’.
Banning pig products is an entirely different matter to serving bits of cows, chickens... that have been killed in a manner according with the halal standards. The former actively denies non-muslims food they might otherwise have chosen to eat and as such is an unjust infringement on their freedom of choice in contrast the latter doesn't affect non-muslims in any way.

Directly relevant to this thread is this article from the Economist:

Only halal meat and no pork available in University of Leicester’s canteens.
http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8057928

(As a pedantic note, the final paragraph is in error as those Malaysian students at SHU are almost exclusively Chinese).

What if I like pork chops, hot dogs, bacon rolls?
I shall be putting this article in my growing file of ‘creeping resurgence of religious influence of Britian, sub-file: Islamification’.
Are you sure about that ? I think you under-estimated the number of Malaysian Muslim students studying in this country.

It is in a way a good business prospect because, an oversea student pays something like 8k a year in tuition fees, and a home student something like 2-3k (if this is still currently correct).

I didn't know the increase of halal places at universities. I do recall that, in my days at uni, most muslims will get their halal lunch boxes from a lady who used to sell them at the mosque. Until it got banned cos of its popularities. You can't sell without a license, and not as a business. Anyway, I just remember how yummy those curries were compared to the ones solds in curry houses. Plus it was cheap too. I don't think the lady sold it to make money, but to be ethical and to provide an alternative to students. Especially since the Malaysian ringgit does not stretch that far in the UK.

Are you sure about that ? I think you under-estimated the number of Malaysian Muslim students studying in this country.
.

Yes I am. SHU hosts around 500 (can't remember the exact number) Chinese Malaysian students from a Chinese college in KL every summer. I have said nothing about Malaysian Muslim students in this country and so have not underestimated the number of them.

Banning pig products is an entirely different matter to serving bits of cows, chickens... that have been killed in a manner according with the halal standards. The former actively denies non-muslims food they might otherwise have chosen to eat and as such is an unjust infringement on their freedom of choice in contrast the latter doesn't affect non-muslims in any way.

You are of course correct but the relevance is that this is a further example of pandering to the so-called needs of one or other religious group raising the question of how acceptable this should be.

You are of course correct but the relevance is that this is a further example of pandering to the so-called needs of one or other religious group raising the question of how acceptable this should be.


I find it odd and rather sad that we keep finding the term 'pandering' (with it's perjorative overtones) in use to describe these situations. This post is an excellent example. Is it not simply good manners to make visitors from overseas or guests of a particular religious persuasion feel comfortable?

feed them quorn no meat no argument

feed them quorn no meat no argument

could feed every meat eater quorn :evil:

well id be happy anyway :P

This is hilarious! I buy kosher beef because it is organic (no mad cow), it is fresh (usually less than 3 days from the slaughter to the dinner table) and it is prime (the best quality). Sure it costs more, but you can taste the difference. Unless it is very different in the UK, regular beef is frozen after the slaughter and kept in large freezers until it is so dried out that it turns black. It is then reconstituted with water and has red food colouring added.

I was only 10 years old when I went to a slaughter house on a class trip and I can tell you that there were several children that walked out of there feeling very ill. I highly doubt that most adults would find the experience pleasant either. The process I saw was very simple. The animal was brought into a pen and then shot in the head. In some instances it took several shots. One animal even cried out in pain. Once it fell, it was attached to meat hooks, turned upside down and the throat was cut allowing blood to drain. Then the butchers began their work by cutting off the head and throwing it into a box and then used a circular saw to remove the skin. Then it was processed further. My father had a similar experience on a trip to the Chicago stockyards when he was quite young. It was far more barbaric at that time. They used large sledgehammers and would bash the head. A talented butcher would be able to kill the animal in only one or two blows.

I have never had the opportunity to go to a commercial chicken plant. However, from what I understand they remove the beaks from the chickens to prevent them from pecking each other while being kept in very close quarters. Apparently, they have no regard to the dignity of the animal. I highly doubt that the slaughter process would be very humane.

To the subject of whether someone should be sacked for serving Halal meat instead of regular meat is just plain stupid. If they are overspending on their budget, then yes they should be reprimanded. But if they have the money why not use Halal.

In any case, did anyone ever like school lunches anyway? I used to bring my lunch because what they served tended to be nasty.

This is hilarious! I buy kosher beef because it is organic (no mad cow), it is fresh (usually less than 3 days from the slaughter to the dinner table) and it is prime (the best quality). Sure it costs more, but you can taste the difference.

I think you will find the best beef is organic quality beef which has been hung for about 4 weeks, not eaten within 3 days of slaughter.