I have often wondered how so many car drivers can get away with having non standard number plates, I mean it`s not exectly hard for PC Plod to track down the offenders is it ?
If I decided to put a non standard plate on my car, and then got caught, I think I`d get pretty angry about it because I`d see all the others driving around "un-prosecuted". Surely this deciding which law to abide by must help to foster a lack of respect for the law so if there are going to be laws, surely they should be enforced, if not they should be scrapped.

Maybe the police feel that they've got more important things to do.
If they had all the time in the world then i'm sure they'd stop these drivers and issue them whatever they need to issue, maybe a standard issue slap around the chops might help. But they don't, so if they're busy stopping people with illegal number plates then they might be missing the people doing 33 mph in a 30 zone, or even real crimes.

lets have zero tolerance for everything. double the size of the police force and build some more prisons.
cops should arrest everyone who is drunk in a town centre and not behaving perfectly. drunk & disorderly charges should be brought .
then as a matter of course every car being driven from a public house should be stopped and the driver breathalised.
then we can stop everyone cycling on the pavement & give them a £100 fine.

please stop being petty and think of something serious to prosecute.

The key point is the” Zero Tolerance” part of the thread title, by allowing people to get away with minor offences it leads to a lack of respect for the law in general.

lets have zero tolerance for everything. double the size of the police force and build some more prisons.
cops should arrest everyone who is drunk in a town centre and not behaving perfectly. drunk & disorderly charges should be brought .
then as a matter of course every car being driven from a public house should be stopped and the driver breathalised.

I agree, this would stop the rot early on. When people see their areas being ruined by theives and vandals then it is too late. If these scum are caught early then we stand a chance of putting a stop to it. As regards number plates, it seems that people have decided they can blatantly ignore the laws in a way which everyone can see and so they need to be stopped before they decide they can take the same attitude to other laws.

I don`t think "willman" is appreciating the essential point I`m making. We should not be able to pick and choose which laws we follow so if the police don`t prosecute people they should scrap the relevant law(s).
What`s the point in having a law then not enforcing it, that just promotes disrespect for the law.

please stop being petty and think of something serious to prosecute.


It will not be petty if you are involved in an incident but are unable to read a none standard/ doctored number plate.

How do you suggest that the idea be implemented anyone?

Police will either be unable to do any other duty, because they are having to constantly enforce minor traffic regulations, or alternatively the budget for policing will have to increase massively.

lets have zero tolerance for everything. double the size of the police force and build some more prisons.
cops should arrest everyone who is drunk in a town centre and not behaving perfectly. drunk & disorderly charges should be brought .
then as a matter of course every car being driven from a public house should be stopped and the driver breathalised.
then we can stop everyone cycling on the pavement & give them a £100 fine.

please stop being petty and think of something serious to prosecute.

not often i agree with anyone on thses forums but your the exception, well said.

The police have time to stop people for "checks" even though nothing is wrong other than they are out driving under the speed limit at 3 in the morning and therefore are obviously up to no good/drunk (as an example). As such I think they have time to stop people with illegal number plates. They blatenly flaunt the law with them so why is it allowed to carry on?

They rave about zero tolerance and how they are cracking down but by letting "small" things like this go, they are sending out completely the wrong message.

It could be enforced the same way all other traffic laws are enforced (or attempted to enforce). Things like speeding, lights out, balding tyres, red light jumping etc. It's not difficult, I dare say the process of looking for illegal non-standard numberplates could be automated much the same as speeding and red light jumping is on cameras.

How do you suggest that the idea be implemented anyone?

Police will either be unable to do any other duty, because they are having to constantly enforce minor traffic regulations, or alternatively the budget for policing will have to increase massively.

We need to have a new law where we have to carry insurance/MOT certificates (in some new small format - or even attached to the windscreen) and licences with us whenever we drive. The police should be stopping people all the time for any minor issue and checking the driver/car. If there is something wrong (or if they don't have the certificates) then issue a £100 ticket and move onto the next person. This should be so quick that they can do dozens each day. We also have to be careful not to fall into the trap of saying "they can't catch rapists if they are giving me a tciket for not having an MOT". It is completely different groups within the police that carry out these separate tasks. If the traffic police gave out more tickets they would have more revenue and they would also catch more people who were involved in other crimes along the way.

There aren't enough officers available to carry out a 'zero tolerance' policy on every law.

Nor is there the political will to implement that. If the public want that, they must lobby for far more officers to implement every law on the books.

We need to have a new law where we have to carry insurance/MOT certificates (in some new small format - or even attached to the windscreen) and licences with us whenever we drive. The police should be stopping people all the time for any minor issue and checking the driver/car. If there is something wrong (or if they don't have the certificates) then issue a £100 ticket and move onto the next person. This should be so quick that they can do dozens each day. We also have to be careful not to fall into the trap of saying "they can't catch rapists if they are giving me a tciket for not having an MOT". It is completely different groups within the police that carry out these separate tasks. If the traffic police gave out more tickets they would have more revenue and they would also catch more people who were involved in other crimes along the way.

Why? We now have ANPR and the database that serve it. What use would paper be?
They can already process far more than dozens a day with a couple of ANPR scanners and a few dedicated cars to stop the ones that are flagged.

Why? We now have ANPR and the database that serve it. What use would paper be?
They can already process far more than dozens a day with a couple of ANPR scanners and a few dedicated cars to stop the ones that are flagged.

Because, when they stop people using this high tech means, they still have to ask them to provide documentation and prove who they are. Sometimes they can do this later, or sometimes they get arrested and have to sort it out at the police station, but I think this is only if they have no insurance details. If the relevant details had to be with the car then there would be no excuses and no need to get them to produce them later, except to a court. They would get a ticket and would have to send their documentation with their fine where it could all be dealt with by a call centre.

Dealt with by a call centre - masses of money needed to staff and run a call centre, money which isn't there for policing now, and with a future of stand still budgets or budget cuts for the Police.

Implementing the law regarding non-standard number plates, need take no more time of an officer other than taking a photo of the vehicle and its plate while on the road.
(In fact, why should they not accept photographic evidence from the public?)

The rest of the work can easily be done with a computerised system and non-uniform staff.

Because, when they stop people using this high tech means, they still have to ask them to provide documentation and prove who they are. Sometimes they can do this later, or sometimes they get arrested and have to sort it out at the police station, but I think this is only if they have no insurance details. If the relevant details had to be with the car then there would be no excuses and no need to get them to produce them later, except to a court. They would get a ticket and would have to send their documentation with their fine where it could all be dealt with by a call centre.

If someone can't prove a) who they are and b) that they have insurance for the vehicle at the side of the road, then they are not allowed to drive away in the vehicle.

Since there is currently no law that forces people to carry identification (and I hope there never is) implementing your idea would be less useful than the current ANPR system.

We need to have a new law where we have to carry insurance/MOT certificates (in some new small format - or even attached to the windscreen)

we already have, when you have your vehicle mot'd ,as of last year, you now get a computer generated cert',not the old hand written type, the info is then passed direct to the dvla in swansea where and when your vehicle was tested, it also has a sticker you attach to the windscreen which on 1 side tells you when you have to retest your car and a green ( could even be blue can't rember coz mine fell off) symbol on the front shows any passing plod your car is tested from the outside.

your insurence info is now fed to a central database also.

the dvla already have your driver details ( assuming your driving legally) and your vehicle exsise details.

so when pc plod gets on your case, within 30sec's he already knows your name ,age, address ,details of who your vehicle is registered to, whether it's taxed, tested and insured or not. so it beats me that when he stop's you ,the first question he ask's is , " is this your car , sir ?" as if he didn't know :gag:

any way, i transgress, yes the teqhnology is already in place and in use, and it is estimated that by 2010 your tax disc as is now will have evolved into one which in itself will hold all the info mentioned above ,allegidly in some sort of bar code system . :heyhey:

Unless PC Plod can read minds then how does he know that it is your car?

I quite often drive a car not registered to me, so the answer would be "no officer, it's my girlfriends".

so when pc plod gets on your case, within 30sec's he already knows your name ,age, address ,details of who your vehicle is registered to, whether it's taxed, tested and insured or not. so it beats me that when he stop's you ,the first question he ask's is , " is this your car , sir ?" as if he didn't know :gag:


The point is when he stops you he DOESNT know if that is thier car, he still doesnt know UNTIL the driver proves who they are. There is after all a small problem of people driving cars that arnt actually thiers :)

Unless PC Plod can read minds then how does he know that it is your car?

I quite often drive a car not registered to me, so the answer would be "no officer, it's my girlfriends".
ever heard of satire, irony ,humour even, why do you peolpe take everything to heart , surly your not that far up your own b/sides you don't know a little leg pull when you see one :suspect: :loopy: :suspect: :loopy: :gag:

All this is irrelevant to the original question regarding number plates.

There is no need to stop the vehicle, nor to identify the driver.

Record the facts with an acceptable photograph and prosecute the registered owner/keeper.

End of?

All this is irrelevant to the original question regarding number plates.

There is no need to stop the vehicle, nor to identify the driver.

Record the facts with an acceptable photograph and prosecute the registered owner/keeper.

End of?
If the number's legible there's no point, if it isn't then a photo can't be used to trace the keeper.

I don't think that we are talking about "legible".

"Non-standard" includes different fonts, spacing and judicious placing of dots.

ever heard of satire, irony ,humour even, why do you peolpe take everything to heart , surly your not that far up your own b/sides you don't know a little leg pull when you see one :suspect: :loopy: :suspect: :loopy: :gag:

I have heard of all those things, your previous post demonstrates none of them.

for pete's sake,
whats wrong with you people will the world stop turning tomorrow if i suddenly decide to personilze my car number plate, comon guys get a life.

don't any of you think the powers that be, have enough on trying to keep us safe from the threat of terrorism, or trying to keep our kids safe from what seems to be an ever increasing number of peado's & perv's, thay're also trying to curb the increasing number of illegal firearms and all the other drug and vice related problems prevelent in todays society.

so when it comes down to it is a personlised number really that bad, live 'n' let live ,i say
----------------------------------------------------------------------
had i been present at creation,i would have given some useful hints for the better ordering of the universe
alfonso, king of castile c:1221-84

If the number's legible there's no point, if it isn't then a photo can't be used to trace the keeper.

Quite often it will be readable if you're close, from a distance though it might appear to have different letters (due to the placing of dots as previously mentioned, or the extremely close spacing) and to an ANPR camera it probably will just be unreadable. That's why legislation was passed making it a requirement to have standard font and spacing.

I have heard of all those things, your previous post demonstrates none of them. my heads not up my b/hind either

for pete's sake,
whats wrong with you people will the world stop turning tomorrow if i suddenly decide to personilze my car number plate, comon guys get a life.

don't any of you think the powers that be, have enough on trying to keep us safe from the threat of terrorism, or trying to keep our kids safe from what seems to be an ever increasing number of peado's & perv's, thay're also trying to curb the increasing number of illegal firearms and all the other drug and vice related problems prevelent in todays society.

so when it comes down to it is a personlised number really that bad, live 'n' let live ,i say
----------------------------------------------------------------------
had i been present at creation,i would have given some useful hints for the better ordering of the universe
alfonso, king of castile c:1221-84

Like I said, personallising it makes it more likely that you will be able to avoid prosecution for other traffic offences, some of which are far more serious than the personalisation.

my heads not up my b/hind either

I'm glad that the operation was a complete success, i'm sure that makes you very happy.

Quite often it will be readable if you're close, from a distance though it might appear to have different letters (due to the placing of dots as previously mentioned, or the extremely close spacing) and to an ANPR camera it probably will just be unreadable. That's why legislation was passed making it a requirement to have standard font and spacing.
If a plate that can't be read by ANPR turns up on an ANPR check, stop and ticket. Otherwise just what is the point? Just persecution for a pure technical offence.

ANPR might also fail because of bad light, dirt, bright light, shadows etc...
So you can't stop and ticket everytime the computer fails to get a match.

ANPR might also fail because of bad light, dirt, bright light, shadows etc...
So you can't stop and ticket everytime the computer fails to get a match.
Standard font plate, no ticket. If you personalise, you run the risk. I'm merely arguing against the 'zero tolerance' bull - it's unnecessary and would seem likely to fail a cost benefit analysis..

Any sensible copper would use his discretion here in order to keep some goodwill between the public and the police. He can issue a defect form whereby the owner can get it changed and then get the form stamped by an MOT station and take it back to police station within a certain time to avoid prosecution.

This is better than zero tolerance on something that is so petty but like everything else we are being told it is to keep us safe. We are in the biggest danger from pedants and people who are riding round like some sort of vigilantes reporting the most minor traffic offences that don't affect them to the plod.

I don`t think "willman" is appreciating the essential point I`m making. We should not be able to pick and choose which laws we follow so if the police don`t prosecute people they should scrap the relevant law(s).
What`s the point in having a law then not enforcing it, that just promotes disrespect for the law.



theres is a law to stop drunk & disorderly conduct, there are numerous to stop drunken behaviour,loutish behaviour.
drink driving is illegal - so if everytime a driver leaves a pb car park he's breathalysed we'll stop everyone doing it.
cycling on the pavement is illegal.

your "essential" point is always aimed at drivers - why not use some of the other laws that are more suited to dangerous behaviour.

what about people who buy old cars with mot on them.
dont insure them, drive them without a licence -then dump them and start again before buying another "runner".
check last weeks Mail for details of the guy who killed the little girl.

if someone can afford "personalised" plates, P3 NIS for example -i can't imagine them being uninsured.

"customised" plates are supposed to be restricted by the people who make & sell them - perhaps they should be prosecuted for contravening trading standards or whatever it is that covers it.

theres is a law to stop drunk & disorderly conduct, there are numerous to stop drunken behaviour,loutish behaviour.
drink driving is illegal - so if everytime a driver leaves a pb car park he's breathalysed we'll stop everyone doing it.
cycling on the pavement is illegal.

your "essential" point is always aimed at drivers - why not use some of the other laws that are more suited to dangerous behaviour.

It is not just aimed at drivers, the number plate thing is just the most obvious example I can think of.
I suppose one point is consistent through most of my posts, it`s about fairness and consistency. As I said in the original post, if I fitted a non standard plate on my car and then got prosecuted, I`d be fuming as I saw all the others driving around quite blatantly. Where is the fairness and consistency in that ?
What is the point in having a law and then ignoring the vast majority of those who break it ?
Incidentally it should not cost anything (nett) to prosecute non standard number plates as the fines should pay for it.

It is not just aimed at drivers, the number plate thing is just the most obvious example I can think of.
I suppose one point is consistent through most of my posts, it`s about fairness and consistency. As I said in the original post, if I fitted a non standard plate on my car and then got prosecuted, I`d be fuming as I saw all the others driving around quite blatantly. Where is the fairness and consistency in that ?
What is the point in having a law and then ignoring the vast majority of those who break it ?
Incidentally it should not cost anything (nett) to prosecute non standard number plates as the fines should pay for it.


so if i got ****** up, smashed a shop window & got nicked. would i be entitled to feel aggrieved at all the other drunkards misbehaving who never get arrested.


(the chances of me getting drunk are about as slim as John Reid being the next PM)

It is not just aimed at drivers, the number plate thing is just the most obvious example I can think of.
I suppose one point is consistent through most of my posts, it`s about fairness and consistency.
Where is the fairness and consistency in that ?
What is the point in having a law and then ignoring the vast majority of those who break it ?
Just because one person gets prosecuted for something and another doesn't, doeasn't make it unfair. Theoretically you should both get prosecuted for it to be fair, not the other way round. People should live within the law and most people do, but enforcing everything to the letter is impossible and impractical. It is logical that the police will put more resources into serious crime as they do. Enforcing laws, such as this number plate one, absolutely would be the makings of a police state which is no good for anyone. Recouping the cost of it through fines is not acceptable, it is morally wrong to enforse justice as if it's a business in any scenario.

So, Darbees,
Is it OK for me to use a non-standard number plate?

I don`t think "willman" is appreciating the essential point I`m making. We should not be able to pick and choose which laws we follow so if the police don`t prosecute people they should scrap the relevant law(s).
What`s the point in having a law then not enforcing it, that just promotes disrespect for the law.

Agreed, there seems little point having laws that are never enforced. If the police don't regard them as serious enough to take action, then clearly it's not serious and no law is needed.

Once the national numberplate recognition system goes live (if it hasn't already), and number plates can't be read by the machine it may increase action on this matter.

If the plates can be read, then does it really matter that they're non-standard?

If the number's legible there's no point, if it isn't then a photo can't be used to trace the keeper.

The standardisation of number plates is due to the numberplate recognition system rolling out nationally, those new gantries over the motorways.

So it may not be *machine* readable, but in 99% of the cases a person will be able to deduce the number.

Agreed, there seems little point having laws that are never enforced. If the police don't regard them as serious enough to take action, then clearly it's not serious and no law is needed.

Once the national numberplate recognition system goes live (if it hasn't already), and number plates can't be read by the machine it may increase action on this matter.

If the plates can be read, then does it really matter that they're non-standard?

If the plates can be read and the law makes it clear that only readability is the standard then it goes without saying that the relevant motorist should not be prosecuted.
At the moment that is not the case so the law should be applied consistently to everyone. As a rule I have big problems with inconsistency in the application of the law (or any set of rules come to that) as I feel it generates insidious disrespect and ill feeling generally.

For those who are interested the figures for prosecutions in Sth Yorks (1 Apr 05 to 1 Mar 06 ie 11 months) are:
Plate not fitted correctly 579
No plate 249
Plate obscured/unreadable 382

For those who are interested the figures for prosecutions in Sth Yorks (1 Apr 05 to 1 Mar 06 ie 11 months) are:
Plate not fitted correctly 579
No plate 249
Plate obscured/unreadable 382Didn't realise it was so bad, no wonder society is breaking down. :rolleyes:

So, Darbees,
Is it OK for me to use a non-standard number plate?It's illegal so you might get prosecuted.

If the plates can be read and the law makes it clear that only readability is the standard then it goes without saying that the relevant motorist should not be prosecuted.
At the moment that is not the case so the law should be applied consistently to everyone. As a rule I have big problems with inconsistency in the application of the law (or any set of rules come to that) as I feel it generates insidious disrespect and ill feeling generally.

For those who are interested the figures for prosecutions in Sth Yorks (1 Apr 05 to 1 Mar 06 ie 11 months) are:
Plate not fitted correctly 579
No plate 249
Plate obscured/unreadable 382

The law was changed several years ago to make it illegal to have a non standard font or non standard spacing, no matter the readability or not.

It's illegal so you might get prosecuted.

You stated that the law should not be enforced.

That is why I asked you if you think it OK to use non-standard plates, because that is what you are inferring.

The standardisation of number plates is due to the numberplate recognition system rolling out nationally, those new gantries over the motorways.

So it may not be *machine* readable, but in 99% of the cases a person will be able to deduce the number.
ANPR's a lot better than you give it credit for. Wave the plate at a machine - if the machine can't read it, and it's not the standard font, then go after the owner, otherwise why bother, pointless enforcement of petty-fogging restrictions.

You stated that the law should not be enforced.

That is why I asked you if you think it OK to use non-standard plates, because that is what you are inferring.I did not say that at all, I said that it's impractical to enforce petty laws absolutely, i.e. prosecute every single person. Justin Smith sadly has a problem about drivers and driving and has started about 5 threads in the last month or so all on a similar vein. If anyone disagrees with his views on the laws and rules he implies they are some kind of anti social, inconsiderate maniac. Meantime he's ambling around as a perfect example being annoyed by other peoples behaviour and thinking it's not fair that some might break the law with impunity when he doesn't. Disagreeing does not mean that we are breaking any of these rules, it means we don't agree with SOME of them and think they are unneccessary.

I am interested in driving and vehicles and I like to think I know what I'm talking about despite the efforts of others to disprove that, I do not however purport to be perfect by any stretch of the imagination. It is irritating that people with no real interest in it continually criticise others who do have that particular interest, their cars are too flashy, too fast, too expensive, too big, too dangerous, too much polllution, drivers are retards, cretins etc who blaze around the highways and byways leaving havoc in their wake. The problem on the roads is bad drivers who don't know or care what they are doing it's not an issue of the law really, if every law was enforced to the letter with huge penalties, the incompetants would still be having accidents. Driving purely with in the law is not necessarily safe in itself.

As I've said before I have licenses to drive virtually every class of vehicle, I've done it for over 32 years, I've driven over a million miles without hitting anything and my record shows that I am a safe driver. I don't expect other people to be interested in it if they don't want to be but by the same token I don't criticise others for their interests when I don't know much about it.

I did not say that at all, I said that it's impractical to enforce petty laws absolutely, i.e. prosecute every single person. Justin Smith sadly has a problem about drivers and driving and has started about 5 threads in the last month or so all on a similar vein. If anyone disagrees with his views on the laws and rules he implies they are some kind of anti social, inconsiderate maniac. Meantime he's ambling around as a perfect example being annoyed by other peoples behaviour and thinking it's not fair that some might break the law with impunity when he doesn't. Disagreeing does not mean that we are breaking any of these rules, it means we don't agree with SOME of them and think they are unneccessary.

I am interested in driving and vehicles and I like to think I know what I'm talking about despite the efforts of others to disprove that, I do not however purport to be perfect by any stretch of the imagination. It is irritating that people with no real interest in it continually criticise others who do have that particular interest, their cars are too flashy, too fast, too expensive, too big, too dangerous, too much polllution, drivers are retards, cretins etc who blaze around the highways and byways leaving havoc in their wake. The problem on the roads is bad drivers who don't know or care what they are doing it's not an issue of the law really, if every law was enforced to the letter with huge penalties, the incompetants would still be having accidents. Driving purely with in the law is not necessarily safe in itself.

As I've said before I have licenses to drive virtually every class of vehicle, I've done it for over 32 years, I've driven over a million miles without hitting anything and my record shows that I am a safe driver. I don't expect other people to be interested in it if they don't want to be but by the same token I don't criticise others for their interests when I don't know much about it.

I do not have a problem with drivers (as in all drivers) but I do have a problem with arrogant selfish motorists who feel the rules are for everyone else and not themselves.
I would have thought that is a reasonable position to adopt and at a loss to understand how anyone could be offended by it.
My comments are not personally directed at you as I have no experience of your driving. However if, in the unlikely event that, you were driving that silver Passat I mentioned earlier (about 6 years ago near Swann Mortons) then I my attitude would not be quite so positive !!!
Incidentally this is not just driving it is about the consistent application of the law and the possible effects that this has on disrespect for the law.

problem with arrogant selfish motorists who feel the rules are for everyone else and not themselves. Arrogant and selfish in motoring is in fact quite subjective and we aren't ever going to agree on that point. I'm not offended in the slightest by your comments so that's not a problemI

I've never driven a silver Passat so whatever happened there which has clearly had a bad effect on you wasn't me but whatever it was it would be that individuals responsibility only.

Incidentally this is not just driving it is about the consistent application of the law and the possible effects that this has on disrespect for the law.Laws have to be respected because of the sanctions if you disobey but I do not feel that we should agree with them no matter what and some motoring laws in particular do not serve the public interest. Unfortunately you judge people by their ability to observe the law only and not by their ability to drive.

It is possible I might drive you sometime because if I sell my business as I may do in near future I might get jobs as bus driver and taxi driver for fun just to see what it's like. Don't worry about it though you'll be in safe hands because I don't want to hurt myself or get prosecuted. :thumbsup:

For those who are interested the figures for prosecutions in Sth Yorks (1 Apr 05 to 1 Mar 06 ie 11 months) are:
Plate not fitted correctly 579
No plate 249
Plate obscured/unreadable 382

So, the Police are really earning their money now, in the last year (2009) only 154 motorists were charged with and obscured/unreadable number plate.
Keep going at this rate and there`ll be no prosecutions at all in a few years. But, to be fair, catching motorists with illegal number plates is pretty difficult, I mean it`s not as if they`re on display for everyone to see. The police would need huge resources, let`s face it spectacles are bleedin` expensive these days, they should go to Specsavers.

I reckon that the main driver (pun alert) should be whether or not the number plate can be read by the ANPR system. If it can, then I don't see much of a problem, as it is clearly legible, regardless of whether it complies with the letter of the law.

Some changes, eg altering the spacings to simulate words doesn't particularly stop a number being read, in fact it may be more memorable and more likely to be remembered by any witnesses to an incident.

...and all instigated by a Government appointed and approved office,the DVLA who sell and auction said plates for inflated prices at a huge profit knowing that they closely resemble names or other tags and stand every chance of being pimped to mean something.

What do you mean by none standard? as long as the lettering is within legal requirements, and white for front, yellow for back.... it doesnt matter about the rest of the plate..

What do you mean by none standard? as long as the lettering is within legal requirements, and white for front, yellow for back.... it doesnt matter about the rest of the plate..

I have to admit there don`t seem to be as many non-standard number plates around these days, or is it just that I`m getting less observant as I get older....
Having said that, a Mondeo went past us on the M1 the other day with smaller digits than normal and its number was not readable at a distance that a car with a legal plate (alongside it in an adjacent lane) could be read.
Coincidentally a (nearly new) Mini went past shortly after that with silver on black number plates, I thought they were only legal on early 1970s cars.

The point is that if we have laws they should be enforced. If the Police aren`t going to enforce a particular law it should scrapped because non-enforcement of the law just breeds contempt for the law in general.

There's something sinister about the whole coincept of 'zero tolerance.' A population like sheep, completely in complianve with everything they are told to do. A lot of laws are stupid, and a lot of stupid laws become defunct because of a mass failure to comply with them. Personally, I'd rather endure a certain level of crime than live in a society where lawmakers are afforded the status of gods and everyione does what they are told.

How do you suggest that the idea be implemented anyone?

Police will either be unable to do any other duty, because they are having to constantly enforce minor traffic regulations, or alternatively the budget for policing will have to increase massively.


Add it to MOT requirements?

Any failure and the new plates manufactured by licensed outlets used by the MOT'ing centre. Any licensed outlet bending the rules will have said licence removed and liable to prosecution.

It shouldn't be too difficult to use cameras and a computerised image analysis programme that sends fines out automatically.

The main reason you can't have no tolerance policing is because the police are not trained lawyers, their knowledge of the laws they are supposed to be upholding is sometimes incredibly vague.

There's something sinister about the whole coincept of 'zero tolerance.' A population like sheep, completely in complianve with everything they are told to do. A lot of laws are stupid, and a lot of stupid laws become defunct because of a mass failure to comply with them. Personally, I'd rather endure a certain level of crime than live in a society where lawmakers are afforded the status of gods and everyione does what they are told.

That sounds like a bit of an arrogant thing to say to me.
Laws are passed by the democratically elected parliament of this country.
They are there to ensure that the majority of the population have a better life.
Where would it all end if people were allowed to pick and choose which laws they wanted to obey ?
The fact is that peoples` ideas of what constitutes a law which is not worth obeying depends on how they are affected by those who break it.
A classic example is the outcry over using CCTV to catch people whose dogs crap in the park.
A sledge hammer to crack a nut some say.
Interestingly that is not said by those whose clothes get covered in dog s**t if they happen to fall on it, or sit in it, or play football on the park and get covered in it.

I have to admit there don`t seem to be as many non-standard number plates around these days, or is it just that I`m getting less observant as I get older....
Having said that, a Mondeo went past us on the M1 the other day with smaller digits than normal and its number was not readable at a distance that a car with a legal plate (alongside it in an adjacent lane) could be read.
Coincidentally a (nearly new) Mini went past shortly after that with silver on black number plates, I thought they were only legal on early 1970s cars.

The point is that if we have laws they should be enforced. If the Police aren`t going to enforce a particular law it should scrapped because non-enforcement of the law just breeds contempt for the law in general.

they might not have been as visible as the car next to it, but if they were within legal regulations then maybe it was ok (I dunno, I didn't see tbh)

as for the old black and silver ones, if the car is a classic car and came with them originally, you can keep them on the car..

The regulations now don't allow for different sized letters, or different fonts. They are very specific about what is correct.

A nearly new mini is clearly not a classic car :puzzled:

That sounds like a bit of an arrogant thing to say to me.


No need for that really.What you have said sounds self righteous.


Laws are passed by the democratically elected parliament of this country.
They are there to ensure that the majority of the population have a better life.
Where would it all end if people were allowed to pick and choose which laws they wanted to obey ?
The fact is that peoples` ideas of what constitutes a law which is not worth obeying depends on how they are affected by those who break it.
A classic example is the outcry over using CCTV to catch people whose dogs crap in the park.
A sledge hammer to crack a nut some say.
Interestingly that is not said by those whose clothes get covered in dog s**t if they happen to fall on it, or sit in it, or play football on the park and get covered in it.

The fact is people do pick and choose which laws they want to obey to some extent. I'll bet even a lot of the people who come on with a holier than thou attitude like yours sometimes park on double yellows, or some similar misdemeanour from time to time. I don't know why you have to compare me with some other person who was objecting to CCTV. That wasn't me. That was a different person making a different point, and you have no idea whether I agree with them or not. Geddit!

What I did say, was that there is something sinister about zero tolerance. I did not say that everyone should pick and choose the laws they want to obey. i didn't say that if you are a psychopath, it is OK to ignore the laws about murder. The point was that there has to be some flexibility. If laws are widely unpopular and unworkable people should ignore them and they should not be enforced, which is by and large what happens.

I don't want to walk in dog poo either, end am quite happy for people who don't clear up their mess to be prosecuted. On the other hand. Fifty years ago, it was illegal to have a homosexual relationship. Was it 'arrogant' of gays to igmore that petty minded law based in prejudice and ignorance?

Add it to MOT requirements?

Any failure and the new plates manufactured by licensed outlets used by the MOT'ing centre. Any licensed outlet bending the rules will have said licence removed and liable to prosecution.

In the 4 years since my post which you quoted the main changes have been in where and how you can get a number plate I think. It's much more difficult to actually buy a non standard plate these days (I suspect). And with less of them around maybe the traffic police find that they do have time to stop the cars and issue them quick fixed penalties (something else they couldn't do in 2006).

Edit - I'm not sure about zero tolerance being sinister. I like the zero tolerance we have for murder and rape, I think it's entirely appropriate.
For less serious 'crimes' then the police already have flexibility with how they choose to deal with things. The main reason this regulation exists is to ensure that drivers can't anonymously commit further crimes by virtue of having an unreadable number plate.

No need for that really.What you have said sounds self righteous.



The fact is people do pick and choose which laws they want to obey to some extent. I'll bet even a lot of the people who come on with a holier than thou attitude like yours sometimes park on double yellows, or some similar misdemeanour from time to time. I don't know why you have to compare me with some other person who was objecting to CCTV. That wasn't me. That was a different person making a different point, and you have no idea whether I agree with them or not. Geddit!

What I did say, was that there is something sinister about zero tolerance. I did not say that everyone should pick and choose the laws they want to obey. i didn't say that if you are a psychopath, it is OK to ignore the laws about murder. The point was that there has to be some flexibility. If laws are widely unpopular and unworkable people should ignore them and they should not be enforced, which is by and large what happens.

I don't want to walk in dog poo either, end am quite happy for people who don't clear up their mess to be prosecuted. On the other hand. Fifty years ago, it was illegal to have a homosexual relationship. Was it 'arrogant' of gays to igmore that petty minded law based in prejudice and ignorance?

No, if laws are unpopular (with the majority of people) they should get them changed in parliament.
Who gives anyone the right to decide what laws to obey ?
Nobody should have that right, nobody at all.
Personally I`m shocked by how some people can justify (to themselves) breaking some laws, like fly tipping for instance. I sometimes wonder if they started off breaking the "less important laws" and thought hold on, I got away with that, I`ll try something else now.

The thing about dog mess was just an example, I wasn`t accusing anyone of doing it. I can remember walking through the park when there was all the controvosy about the use of CCTV to catch people doing that, and some of the PC brigade were throwing their arms up in horror. I wondered if they`d say the same thing if they had to clean there kids football kit covered in dog crap. Answer, probably not.....

No, if laws are unpopular (with the majority of people) they should get them changed in parliament.
Who gives anyone the right to decide what laws to obey ?
Nobody should have that right, nobody at all.
..

So you think that if having a homosexual relationship was still illegal - like it was not so long ago - then gays should comply with letting other people tell them what their serxuality should be and what they can do with their own bodies?

What you seem to forget is that a lot of the rights and freedoms from tyranny which you take for granted were not handed over voluntarily but were won by people who were prepared to break the law and they often paid a heavy price for doing what was right.

Finally, I can only say that if you truly believe that our laws and 'democracy' are an accurate and even handed reflection of the wants and needs of all sections of society, then that is very naive. You only have to look at what happened in the Iraq war, and the recent mass fraud commited by MPs which resulted in almost zero prosecutions to see that the law is not always for the benefit of the general populace.

In the 4 years since my post which you quoted the main changes have been in where and how you can get a number plate I think. It's much more difficult to actually buy a non standard plate these days (I suspect).

Sadly not. The likes of Ebay make it dead easy to buy "show plates".

Look at the "options" you can have from this trader:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CAR-BIKE-NUMBER-PLATES-SHOWPLATES-SHOW-PLATES-DESIGN-/260633255656?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3caef3dee8

So you think that if having a homosexual relationship was still illegal - like it was not so long ago - then gays should comply with letting other people tell them what their serxuality should be and what they can do with their own bodies?

What you seem to forget is that a lot of the rights and freedoms from tyranny which you take for granted were not handed over voluntarily but were won by people who were prepared to break the law and they often paid a heavy price for doing what was right.

Finally, I can only say that if you truly believe that our laws and 'democracy' are an accurate and even handed reflection of the wants and needs of all sections of society, then that is very naive. You only have to look at what happened in the Iraq war, and the recent mass fraud commited by MPs which resulted in almost zero prosecutions to see that the law is not always for the benefit of the general populace.

It's a good point.
I'm not sure that a claim that a requirement to have standard lettering on a car number plate can be considered worthy of civil disobedience though. It's not an onerous requirement, it exists for a valid reason and as such it should be enforced.

It's a good point.
I'm not sure that a claim that a requirement to have standard lettering on a car number plate can be considered worthy of civil disobedience though. It's not an onerous requirement, it exists for a valid reason and as such it should be enforced.

Indeed not, but what started this diversion was the assertion that 'zero tolerance' of all infractions is a good approach to law enforcement. I will not be advocating a general strike on the number plate issue.

So you think that if having a homosexual relationship was still illegal - like it was not so long ago - then gays should comply with letting other people tell them what their serxuality should be and what they can do with their own bodies?

What you seem to forget is that a lot of the rights and freedoms from tyranny which you take for granted were not handed over voluntarily but were won by people who were prepared to break the law and they often paid a heavy price for doing what was right.

Finally, I can only say that if you truly believe that our laws and 'democracy' are an accurate and even handed reflection of the wants and needs of all sections of society, then that is very naive. You only have to look at what happened in the Iraq war, and the recent mass fraud commited by MPs which resulted in almost zero prosecutions to see that the law is not always for the benefit of the general populace.

We live in a democracy, action should be taken through parliament.
Parliament reflects, or is supposed to reflect (maybe we need proportional representation so that it actually does....) the will of the people, as a whole.
If you want to change a law you should do it through parliament, that`s democracy.

I suppose what I meant by arrogant, in my earlier comment, was that it`s arrogant for people to say that a particular law is unimportant just because the breaching of it may not affect them.
The dog s**t was one example.
As for loud exhausts, if someone lives well away from areas where loud exhausts are heard, or they have double glazing (and it isn`t too warm to need your windows open....) then they may pontificate that laws about loud exhausts are unimportant or an infringement on peoples` liberties, or some other load of b******s. But it`s arrogant because the problems don`t actually affect them and they`re effectively ignoring other members of society.
Furthermore, when Clegg and the other trendy PC types go on about invasions of peoples` freedoms (like CCTV etc), most of them don`t live in areas of high crime/anti social behaviour. So yes, that`s arrogant as well.

Indeed not, but what started this diversion was the assertion that 'zero tolerance' of all infractions is a good approach to law enforcement. I will not be advocating a general strike on the number plate issue.

In that case I agree with you. In some cases it is appropriate, in others it isn't.

I kind of agree with Donkey on this one. There are lots of laws I don't agree with, yet I stand no chance of getting them changed.

Number plates by law have to be obtained from licenced manufacturers who have to put the postcode of their business on each plate. If someone is stopped for having a plate with incorrect fonts or spacing the plate will have been obtained illegally as well. I suspect that the offences committed by someone running an illegal plate would add up to the point where fines made policing cost effective. It takes no more time than stopping motorists for using mobile phones or for not wearing a seat belt. but could prove far more cost effective, particularly as the folk whose ego requires a doctored plate usually also requires illegally blacked out windows to avert the stares of an admiring public.

Personally I think we should adopt the Swedish system, whereby only the state can make plates, and like bank notes, contain a number of anti fraud systems.

I have to admit there don`t seem to be as many non-standard number plates around these days, or is it just that I`m getting less observant as I get older....
Having said that, a Mondeo went past us on the M1 the other day with smaller digits than normal and its number was not readable at a distance that a car with a legal plate (alongside it in an adjacent lane) could be read.
Coincidentally a (nearly new) Mini went past shortly after that with silver on black number plates, I thought they were only legal on early 1970s cars.

The point is that if we have laws they should be enforced. If the Police aren`t going to enforce a particular law it should scrapped because non-enforcement of the law just breeds contempt for the law in general.

I don't think it need be as black and white (or black and yellow) as you paint. The purpose of the regulations is to make sure that the numbers are legible. In order to achieve this, the regulations need to be conservative. Any such regulation will be a fairly blunt instrument. Just because a number plate does not meet the letter of the regulations does not mean that it is not legible. I've no problem with the police pulling a car with an illegal plate, but neither am I particularly concerned if they do not bother because they think their time can be spent doing something more productive - provided, of course, that it is legible.

Number plates by law have to be obtained from licenced manufacturers who have to put the postcode of their business on each plate. If someone is stopped for having a plate with incorrect fonts or spacing the plate will have been obtained illegally as well. I suspect that the offences committed by someone running an illegal plate would add up to the point where fines made policing cost effective. It takes no more time than stopping motorists for using mobile phones or for not wearing a seat belt. but could prove far more cost effective, particularly as the folk whose ego requires a doctored plate usually also requires illegally blacked out windows to avert the stares of an admiring public.

Don`t get me going on that one.
I saw a woman pulling out from the traffic lights right across all three lanes of traffic waiting at our red light brazenly chatting away on her phone.
She was obviously totally unconcerned that she might get seen and prosecuted.
I say throw the key away, after having thrown the book at her.
Just make sure you don`t get it wrong, by throwing the key at her having just thrown the book away.......