Anyone see this in last night's Star? There are allegations of electoral fraud in the Central ward of Sheffield but nobody knows who's involved.

labour says 'it's not us'
tories say 'it's not us'
greens say 'it's not us'
lib dems say 'I was not made aware of the name of any candidate'

Hmm.

29 votes spread for the tories, 379, 380 and 408
300 vote spread for labour, 1055, 1065 and 1355
189 vote spread for the greens, 1016, 1058 and 1305
an amazing 686 spread for the lib dems, 590, 889 and 1276

Hmm again.

We will probably never get to the truth of all this but I for one suspect there was more fraud than has come to light.
I had some concerns during the count in my ward but did not go public in case I was accused of sour grapes.
I woul'd feel much better if we coul'd return to the old method,but this wont happen as it wont help the labour party.
We in my party have held the view that postal voting was only held in the north where we have good support in order to stop us gaining more seats.
Now you may feel this is paranoid but thats what we think.

If you have any real reason to believe that the government has brought in the postal ballot just so they can hide all the millions of votes for the BNP, then you should make an official complaint. Another possibility is that your supporters didn't have enough brainpower to fill in the voting form correctly.

I thought in some areas the number of people voting was higher with postal ballots than the old system, but I may be mistaken.

Originally posted by royjames
I had some concerns during the count in my ward but did not go public in case I was accused of sour grapes.

Just in case anybody takes this rant seriously the count was undertaken in full view of several hundred people with TV cameras and press photographers on the balcony.

The bnp had their monitors there just like real political parties and it's just unfortunate that none of them could count past 10. So yes, I can see how they could imagine fraud.

That repy is beneath contempt,.

Originally posted by max
Anyone see this in last night's Star? There are allegations of electoral fraud in the Central ward of Sheffield but nobody knows who's involved.

labour says 'it's not us'
tories say 'it's not us'
greens say 'it's not us'
lib dems say 'I was not made aware of the name of any candidate'

Hmm.

29 votes spread for the tories, 379, 380 and 408
300 vote spread for labour, 1055, 1065 and 1355
189 vote spread for the greens, 1016, 1058 and 1305
an amazing 686 spread for the lib dems, 590, 889 and 1276

Hmm again.


and



Just in case anybody takes this rant seriously the count was undertaken in full view of several hundred people with TV cameras and press photographers on the balcony.


so are you saying electoral fraud is not possible, or are you saying it is possible?

who is doing the alleging?

what is spread?

For those of you who seem to know all about what went off at the election count, I was there and here is my account of what I saw first hand, not second hand like most of you that enjoy giving facts that are incorrect.


Firstly, Each and every candidate from all parties were sent questionairs regarding the postal ballot.

Although there were cameras at Ponds Forge where the counting was carried out, The cameras were only on when the results were to be announced and not on all the time.

There was concern about the way that the counting was done due to the fact that the people counting had no idea of how to do the job.( no one had explained the procedure to the counters)
This confusion was brought about by the way in which the ballot papers had been designed and the number of seats that were open.
Ie, If some idiot voted con, lab, lib, on the paper what were they to do.......in some instances I found that these were put on the labour pile........luckily I did spot a few and had them rectify this.

There were a lot of incidents where as when the count was finished, bags of votes were found that had not even been opened.
On opening , the ballot papers were not verified before adding to the count

In my ward, after counting all the votes, we found over a hundred votes not counted.
This happened not once but 3 times before I left in disgust at the way the democratic process had been undermined.

Incidently....we counted 1024 votes for the BNP before leaving and returned a total vote for that ward of only 947 when the results were announced.........makes you think!

I do hope that everyone realises that the candidate with the most votes in any ward was voted in for 4 years and not the usual year term.

Max, as this is such a 'big issue', and as you were a candidate in the election, I think that you should stop shilly shallying about and tell us exactly what is being suggested went off.

To quote Olin Miller "To be absolutely certain about something, one must know everything or nothing about it."

If there was any fraud it would be a criminal offence and should be dealt with as such.

If anything occurred (a big if) it should be brought into the open, where it can be discussed, not rumoured upon.

To do anything else would be seen as nothing more than the other parties making sneaky political capital.

:thumbsup:

Originally posted by max
29 votes spread for the tories, 379, 380 and 408
300 vote spread for labour, 1055, 1065 and 1355
189 vote spread for the greens, 1016, 1058 and 1305
an amazing 686 spread for the lib dems, 590, 889 and 1276


If you are talking about vote transfers, what is so strange about that?

have the star said who the police are investigating?
i heard they are going door to door in broomhall
surely the party with the problem should act swiftly

Originally posted by max
labour says 'it's not us'
tories say 'it's not us'
greens say 'it's not us'
lib dems say 'I was not made aware of the name of any candidate'


and the BNP say 'what does f-r-a-u-d mean?'

I had some problms understanding a few words on this thread, this defintion helped me a lot:




http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?dict=CALD&key=30958&ph=on


Definition

fraud (FALSE)
noun [C]

someone or something that deceives people by claiming to be someone or something that they are not:

She was a psychic who was later revealed to be a fraud

He claimed to be a legitimate politician from the BNP but was later revealed to be a Nazi, expressing in a TV documentary wishes such as “All I want to do is shoot ***** ”

The public judged these men frauds.

Originally posted by DerekH


Ie, If some idiot voted con, lab, lib, on the paper



Perhaps that Idiot was so stupid that they weren't taking in by a neo nazi, just because he is wearing a suit. Perhaps they were so stupid as to do even the most basic bit of research into the reality of the BNP, maybe just looking at this site

http://www.stopthebnp.com/

Indeed maybe these idiots who voted in this way were the same idiots who make up 75% of the electorate, those people that would rather vote for any party other then the British Nazi Party. Hard as you find it given the circles you move in, but their are British people who do not want to beat a man half to death because of the colour of his skin, or blow up a place of worship just because it’s not Christian.

If you really want to help bring about the race war the BNP leadership are so keen to enact i suggest you put your efforts into finding out why your party blew so much money on a European election campaign after which you didn’t win a single seat, after which you didn’t win a single seat*. Then start looking for a British bank that will accept your dirty money rather then coming on hear moaning about the fact that people in Sheffield hate the BNP so much and didn’t want to be represented by a Nazi.




* sorry for the repetition but can you blame me for wanting to say it twice, after which you didn’t win a single seat, even three times and it still sounds good, after which you didn’t win a single seat, after which you didn’t win a single seat I’ll stop now. After which you didn’t win a single seat

Yes, The Greens won more seats in Sheffield than the BNP which has got to be good.

and more MEP's across the whole country, also very good.

How did a thread about electoral fraud turn into a debate about the BNP? :confused:

does anybody know anything?????????
can't believe its splashed all over the front page and nobody has a clue why
is it labour or lib dems or greens or whoever.... looks like max was hinting its the lib dems, any lib dems out there to quash that?

Originally posted by DerekH
I do hope that everyone realises that the candidate with the most votes in any ward was voted in for 4 years and not the usual year term.
You mean, the candidates that came second and third were voted in for three-year and two-year terms instead of the usual *four-year* term.

Originally posted by Skatiechik
How did a thread about electoral fraud turn into a debate about the BNP? :confused:

I think it was when they tired to blame election fraud for them not getting any wins in Sheffield rather then the fact that so many people hate their Fascist guts.

Originally posted by cornfed_pig
You mean, the candidates that came second and third were voted in for three-year and two-year terms instead of the usual *four-year* term.

Yes, thats right.

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
I think it was when they tired to blame election fraud for them not getting any wins in Sheffield rather then the fact that so many people hate their Fascist guts.

Well done. Ironic that the BNP would complain about election fraud, when election fraud, and intimidation, and violence, were all methods the Nazi's used to take power in Germany.

Facism and Nazism are the biggest lies in the world; they promise nationalism, greatness, unity and less bureaucracy, but they only lead to war, macho aggression, regression and powerlessness. Keep Britain Free.

Does anyone have any concrete information regarding alleged election fraud in t he council elections. Or is it just an allegation of an allegation that there might be a rumour somewhere that someone's dog had sniffed out some election fraud?

Well respected organ that The Star is (our cat loves it, as an absorbent underlay) I have not aspired to read it.

Anyone care to fill us in, rather than simply push-polling a rumour like the one below?

Incidentally - How would you (the forum) react, if I told you that all Labour Councillors were utterly unscrupulous with their expenses and were lining their pockets with planning bribes?

I agree with Phan. If there is something going on, then a little more information should be posted, rather than supposition that may well just be a summertime political joust.

the police are making enquries according to city solicitor quoted in the star
all political party leaders have been briefed that police are investigating
max's first contribution noted denial of their party's involvement by all parties except lib dems
so evidence suggests not a political stunt..............
my guess is that someone knows more and star knows more, but just need to be able to know they can say it without predujicing the case

Originally posted by Skatiechik
How did a thread about electoral fraud turn into a debate about the BNP? :confused:

Because rule one of this forum states:

No matter how innocent the initial post, it should ALWAYS turn into a BNP / race thread, or deteriorate into personal insults.

Originally posted by alchresearch
Because rule one of this forum states:

No matter how innocent the initial post, it should ALWAYS turn into a BNP / race thread, or deteriorate into personal insults.
Rule 0 - we try and stay on topic, ignoring those who would digress into subjects deserving of their own entire threads (or even fora come to think of it)

<cracks knuckes>

So are we not going to speculate at all? Is this going to be a case of rounding up stray postal ballots and filling them in or something?

Perhaps the whole election should be annulled and run again with ballot papers and polling stations and ballot boxes. I voted by text last time, as an experiment, and I wasn't entirely happy with the act itself, nor was I satisfied that my vote had been cast.

For something as fundamental as voting, I would say that the tangible nature of paper ballots, and the public siting of polling stations is vital to both electoral rigour , and the perception of electoral rigour which is possibly even more important.

The sort of easily verifiable system that our incumbent regime seems to think may be redundant.

I thought the postal voting forms were quite complicated. It was certainly more hassle for me to fill in the confusing postal vote form than popping into my local polling centre on my way home from work.

If I had trouble then how must it have been for the elderly or those who find forms difficult.

I wonder how many spoiled ballots there were because of this?

Originally posted by tom_common
Well done. Ironic that the BNP would complain about election fraud, when election fraud, and intimidation, and violence, were all methods the Nazi's used to take power in Germany.

Facism and Nazism are the biggest lies in the world; they promise nationalism, greatness, unity and less bureaucracy, but they only lead to war, macho aggression, regression and powerlessness. Keep Britain Free.

Actually I was not trying to turn this into a BNP thing nor was I complaining or have done to anyone.

As the thread is about electoral fraud I just stated what I saw!..
Is this then to be turned into a slinging match because you did not read my thread properly?

I stated that I was there as a candidate for the BNP.......I wasnt in anyway trying to say I was cheated although I did state the numbers that were counted and the actual result.

I personally dont give a damn about whether the democratic right of all in the UK citizens are undermined because at the end of the day! THe only people that will suffer are the ones that live here...and I, Personally have had enough of the rantings of the idiots and know it all's that seem to come out of the woodwork in here.

On finishing I would like o state that I nor any BNP members in Sheffield have bothered to lodge any complaints about the whole affair of postal ballot..........

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
Perhaps that Idiot was so stupid that they weren't taking in by a neo nazi, just because he is wearing a suit. Perhaps they were so stupid as to do even the most basic bit of research into the reality of the BNP, maybe just looking at this site

http://www.stopthebnp.com/

Indeed maybe these idiots who voted in this way were the same idiots who make up 75% of the electorate, those people that would rather vote for any party other then the British Nazi Party. Hard as you find it given the circles you move in, but their are British people who do not want to beat a man half to death because of the colour of his skin, or blow up a place of worship just because it’s not Christian.

If you really want to help bring about the race war the BNP leadership are so keen to enact i suggest you put your efforts into finding out why your party blew so much money on a European election campaign after which you didn’t win a single seat, after which you didn’t win a single seat*. Then start looking for a British bank that will accept your dirty money rather then coming on hear moaning about the fact that people in Sheffield hate the BNP so much and didn’t want to be represented by a Nazi.




* sorry for the repetition but can you blame me for wanting to say it twice, after which you didn’t win a single seat, even three times and it still sounds good, after which you didn’t win a single seat, after which you didn’t win a single seat I’ll stop now. After which you didn’t win a single seat


is there any difference with the redwatch and the stop the bnp sites ?

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
Perhaps that Idiot was so stupid that they weren't taking in by a neo nazi, just because he is wearing a suit. Perhaps they were so stupid as to do even the most basic bit of research into the reality of the BNP, maybe just looking at this site

http://www.stopthebnp.com/

Indeed maybe these idiots who voted in this way were the same idiots who make up 75% of the electorate, those people that would rather vote for any party other then the British Nazi Party. Hard as you find it given the circles you move in, but their are British people who do not want to beat a man half to death because of the colour of his skin, or blow up a place of worship just because it’s not Christian.

If you really want to help bring about the race war the BNP leadership are so keen to enact i suggest you put your efforts into finding out why your party blew so much money on a European election campaign after which you didn’t win a single seat, after which you didn’t win a single seat*. Then start looking for a British bank that will accept your dirty money rather then coming on hear moaning about the fact that people in Sheffield hate the BNP so much and didn’t want to be represented by a Nazi.




* sorry for the repetition but can you blame me for wanting to say it twice, after which you didn’t win a single seat, even three times and it still sounds good, after which you didn’t win a single seat, after which you didn’t win a single seat I’ll stop now. After which you didn’t win a single seat

Again you show what a total idiot you are by not examining what it is I said....
For a person to vote on the ballot paper for all 3 candidates no matter who they were created problems.....it also showed that the ones who did this also didnt know who they wanted to vote for................My thread had nothing to do with whether I won a seat or anything....The problem here seems to be that you brand people that you don't know and also ..you are the Fascist here!!!

Originally posted by royjames
Now you may feel this is paranoid but thats what we think.

Nah - just delusions of political importance...

DerekH, as a candidate you should be aware that each voter was entitled to 3 votes in the local election. It is their democratic right to vote for as many or few of each party as they wish so long as their votes did not exceed three. (Smacks of a bit of the holy hand grenade of Antioch sketch, but I digress)

There were monitors from each party ensuring that the counters did not make mistakes.

As the ballot papers were unfolded they were put into piles as follows:

Those with all three votes for the same party went into a pile of similar ballot papers the rest kept seperate.

The piles of party papers were then taken away and counted, again in full view of the monitors. The votes on the others were then tabulated, by hand, onto a large spreadsheet with each candidate receiving a mark for each vote they received. Again, in full view of the monitors.

I don't know which bit you couldn't understand DerekH but drop me a pm and I'll send you the instructions which were sent to all candidates.

As to the allegations of fraud, it has been alleged that one candidate from a particular party went round collecting votes telling the voters that he was a colleague of a much respected candidate of another party and that he would see that their ballot papers were correctly sent in. He is also alleged to have told them not to bother with the other 2 votes to which they were entitled as these would be sorted too.

As I say, these are allegations and, as yet, have not been substantiated.

MaX........I did understand everything that was going off...the bit about people voting for 3 seperate parties on the one ballot paper were the ones I have mentioned.........Apart from all that! All I was contributing to the thread was my experience of what I saw....Nothing more , Nothing less.

Sorry I bothered..

OK, just in case there are any misunderstandings, I'm a member of the labour party and stood as a candidate in one of the safe lib dem wards. I have heard the allegations and have tried to put them into some sort of context.

I posted this thread in that capacity and not as a mod.

If anyone has any serious complaints then I'll retract this thread.

Originally posted by max
OK, just in case there are any misunderstandings, I'm a member of the labour party and stood as a candidate in one of the safe lib dem wards. I have heard the allegations and have tried to put them into some sort of context.

I posted this thread in that capacity and not as a mod.

If anyone has any serious complaints then I'll retract this thread.

There have been a lot of allegations etc' however! untill there is an investigation and facts that we can see for sure what was going off we will never know.

I was sat with Marjorie Barker at the count as we both have the same concerns about our area........I am not convinced that postal balloting is in the best interests of everyone and in all honesty I don't know why they bothered to try it out when there were 3 seats per ward up for grabs.

The old fashioned way of voting is a lot more secure than postal and if it has worked for so many years without allegations of fraud.....why change it?

There have been a lot of allegations not only in sheffield but other regions that were forced into the postal ballot....

Personally I have found the democratic process here to be 3rd world and a total farce.......
If I want to vote by going to a polling station and marking my nomination...I should be allowed to do so in a democratic vote.....We were not given that option and it was forced upon the people to do something that not only were they not used to but was very confusing.
A lot of votes were lost or deemed void because a lot of people couldnt understand how to complete the forms or did not have witnesses sign their declarations.

Whether you are labour, lib dems or anyone else is immaterial to the fact that the postal ballot is open to fraud and manipulation.

Your Thread is a good subject that warrants replies regarding the issue at hand and not the replies that I have seen that are not only defamatory but also slanderouse from the left wing of the labour party.

I am only too willing to give my views as a citizen of Sheffield but to have to read the drivel that is posted by these people that tend to turn everything into a slinging match of abuse......I will not tollerate.


By the way......Good luck in the parlimentary elections next year

Originally posted by DerekH
Your Thread is a good subject that warrants replies regarding the issue at hand and not the replies that I have seen that are not only defamatory but also slanderouse from the left wing of the labour party.

Thanks for that. However, I'm concerned as to who you think is posting on here from the left wing of the labour party. I think I'm the only one who has held his hand up to being in the party and I'm far from left wing.

Back on topic.

As to postal voting being any more prone to fraud I have yet to see any convincing arguments that persuade me that it is any more so than the 'traditional' method.

Originally posted by max
Thanks for that. However, I'm concerned as to who you think is posting on here from the left wing of the labour party. I think I'm the only one who has held his hand up to being in the party and I'm far from left wing.

Back on topic.

As to postal voting being any more prone to fraud I have yet to see any convincing arguments that persuade me that it is any more so than the 'traditional' method.
Ok Max ...I may be wrong but the Socialists that are in the forum are indirectly or directly funded by the Labour party...

I will not go any further than that...but you are possibly the same as me where all I want is to see something happen that gets promised in an election.

I joined the BNP not as a racist but as a realist with my own ideals.

I saw that every year I was promised services etc and better police presence only to find that nothing actually changed after the elections.
I am an honest person who if I make a promise I will bend over backwards to deliver .

If I cant deliver then I will not promise.

The postal vote was forced on us...we did not want it!
With the old system The boxes were sent direct, locked, to the count where they were opened and sorted.

There were stories in the papers regarding some candidates going around and taking postal ballots from people.....Hell! to prove this I will get my dog registered on the voters roll and if it is a postal vote!!!!! who will know?

Thinking about it my dog can get a credit card issued as well

I think the allegation of electoral fraud is a very useful tool for Nick Griffin as he fends of questions and leadership challenges over the issue of why so much money was wasted on elections the BNP failed to enjoy any success in.

Their were certainly lots of problems with postal voting, my mum managed to spoil both her and my dad’s papers, but the idea that this is all a state plot resulting in ‘third world democracy’ is rubbish.

I think criticising the BNP in this thread is entirely justified being that it is the BNP desperately whipping up scare stories about an electoral fraud conspiracy in a desperate attempt to avoid the reality of just how unpopular their polices of hate really are. Also i think the people most cheated in this election where the voters who voted for the BNP believing them to be legitimate politicians only to have the BBC reveal the truth a few months later.

But if anyone feels i have abused the thread topic i am happy for my comments to be edited or removed.

Also Max please can apply for some this funding from the Labour party, oh no wait my mistake just another pointless BNP conspiracy theory.

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
I think the allegation of electoral fraud is a very useful tool for Nick Griffin as he fends of questions and leadership challenges over the issue of why so much money was wasted on elections the BNP failed to enjoy any success in.

Their were certainly lots of problems with postal voting, my mum managed to spoil both her and my dad’s papers, but the idea that this is all a state plot resulting in ‘third world democracy’ is rubbish.

I think criticising the BNP in this thread is entirely justified being that it is the BNP desperately whipping up scare stories about an electoral fraud conspiracy in a desperate attempt to avoid the reality of just how unpopular their polices of hate really are. Also i think the people most cheated in this election where the voters who voted for the BNP believing them to be legitimate politicians only to have the BBC reveal the truth a few months later.

But if anyone feels i have abused the thread topic i am happy for my comments to be edited or removed.

Also Max please can apply for some this funding from the Labour party, oh no wait my mistake just another pointless BNP conspiracy theory.
Why is it that everything that you have posted so far revolves around the BNP? this thread relates to the postal elections.
Is it that your brain is set on one subject or that the only conversation you have is against a party that you do not know..( think you know).....I for the life of me cannot comprehend your literature as part of this thread!......is it because you are just blinkered or are not educated enough to see that the subject here is the election fraud?
I state my case. And I appologise to max for this section.

Like I said earlier, it all ends up as BNP / name calling.

Why can't people stick to the matter in hand? I want to be able to read about the subject of the title, not waste my time sifting through irrellevant posts where people need to take a dig at a person's political beliefs, or get down to name calling or, if they have nothing beneficial to add, start to tear apart the poster's grammar and punctuation.

Would be interesting to know what percentage of my posts have to do with the BNP, next time I'm very very bored i might go through them all and work it. I’ll PM you with the result so your next post about me can be as accurate as possible.

I’m surprised i wasn’t the first to mention the BNP is this thread. I’m obviously not the only one on here who associates electoral Fraud with the policy of the BNP tricking people into thinking their a legitimate party. I’ve already stated why i believe their is a good link with the BNP regarding this topic, you haven’t argued against that just insulted my intelligence.

Could you give me some details of this funding i might be eligible for from the Labour party, I could really do with some extra cash.

Originally posted by alchresearch
Like I said earlier, it all ends up as BNP / name calling.

Why can't people stick to the matter in hand? I want to be able to read about the subject of the title, not waste my time sifting through irrellevant posts where people need to take a dig at a person's political beliefs, or get down to name calling or, if they have nothing beneficial to add, start to tear apart the poster's grammar and punctuation.

I agree with you 100%.....Something has to be done in the forum that is constructive in the way that users comment in discussions.
I am fed up with all the name calling.....One thing that I have always been told .....Don't talk politics or religion....there is no right or wrong answers.......

My opinion on electoral fraud and postal voting.

It is an issue being invented and exaggerated by the BNP in an attempt to disguise their abysmal electoral results and further discredit the Labour party.

We should stick to ballot voting to ensure a secret ballot or give people the option.

Agreed on all counts.!

Originally posted by DerekH
The old fashioned way of voting is a lot more secure than postal and if it has worked for so many years without allegations of fraud.....why change it?


But why do you say the old fashioned way of voting has worked for so many years? Not very many people were voting in the old fashioned way, so in my opinion it makes sense to try newer ways if it might get more people to vote... even though if a lot more people voted then one of two of the extreme parties which most people would find repulsive would receive a lot smaller proportion of the vote!;)

I think it would be a good idea to have postal ballot but provide the option of voting in "the old fashioned" way as well for people who prefer that.

I think it is important for everyone to vote for the party they think the best (or the least bad.. as political parties are all made up of people who are imperfect like the rest of us), or they shouldn't complain if one of the extreme fascist parties get more seats.

Originally posted by Patchy
But why do you say the old fashioned way of voting has worked for so many years? Not very many people were voting in the old fashioned way, so in my opinion it makes sense to try newer ways if it might get more people to vote... even though if a lot more people voted then one of two of the extreme parties which most people would find repulsive would receive a lot smaller proportion of the vote!;)

I think it would be a good idea to have postal ballot but provide the option of voting in "the old fashioned" way as well for people who prefer that.

I think it is important for everyone to vote for the party they think the best (or the least bad.. as political parties are all made up of people who are imperfect like the rest of us), or they shouldn't complain if one of the extreme fascist parties get more seats.

In actual fact......THe minor parties did recieve more votes due to the postal ballot
This is evident with the unexpected popularity with UKIP.

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
Would be interesting to know what percentage of my posts have to do with the BNP, next time I'm very very bored i might go through them all and work it. I’ll PM you with the result so your next post about me can be as accurate as possible.

I’m surprised i wasn’t the first to mention the BNP is this thread. I’m obviously not the only one on here who associates electoral Fraud with the policy of the BNP tricking people into thinking their a legitimate party. I’ve already stated why i believe their is a good link with the BNP regarding this topic, you haven’t argued against that just insulted my intelligence.

Could you give me some details of this funding i might be eligible for from the Labour party, I could really do with some extra cash.

Ok Disco_Cat.......All your posts in this thread have mentioned the BNP........Your one statement regarding the BBC documentary is not worth a comment as If you judge everyone as being the same that belongs to a party or organisation then you are a little narrow minded.
The BBC also had a documentary about the police force where 3 police men were filmed saying and doing exactly the same things that were shown in the BNP documentary.
Does this then mean that I could make a statement that ALL the police are fascist, racist thugs?
My answer to the above comment is NO!
As for the BNP being associated with electoral fraud I think that you should read the facts that will come out in the near future as to who is associated with it!
The BNP IS! a legitimate party.....How can you make a statement that we are tricking people into thinking that we are legitimate when we legally are?

Why dont you join the Anti nazi league? They have funding from the unions and the Labour Party.

Quote:My opinion on electoral fraud and postal voting.

It is an issue being invented and exaggerated by the BNP in an attempt to disguise their abysmal electoral results and further discredit the Labour party..........[quote}


We have not invented nor exaggerated the accusations of fraud! The facts of the matter are that...we do not have the full story as to what happened which has brought about the investigation that is now underway.

As far as abysmal results...Ha Ha ha! The Votes cast were 3 times more tham in the previouse election.

Originally posted by DerekH
In actual fact......THe minor parties did recieve more votes due to the postal ballot
This is evident with the unexpected popularity with UKIP.

Ahhh well, that disproves Royjames's conspiracy theory that the government went to all the trouble of setting up the postal ballot system just to rob the BNP of votes then!:thumbsup:

Relevant article in the Times today....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1232953,00.html

Looks like the postal workers should be paid danger money at election time :D

Originally posted by Patchy
Ahhh well, that disproves Royjames's conspiracy theory that the government went to all the trouble of setting up the postal ballot system just to rob the BNP of votes then!:thumbsup:

I could say that a lot of parties are claiming the same thing.



I still say that Postal voting is open to manipulation more than the ballot box.

Originally posted by Greybeard
Relevant article in the Times today....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1232953,00.html

Looks like the postal workers should be paid danger money at election time :D

What a great artical from the Times, Makes you think about who is involved with all the allegations......
I doubt Labour will be making any accusations of postal vote rigging after reading it!

Just goes to show what a party and its candidates will do to hold onto power

Derek, can we please be clear here?

As a losing candidate for the Woodhouse Ward are you saying that you think there is evidence of fraud at the last election?

That's a pretty serious allegation.

Originally posted by DerekH
What a great artical from the Times, Makes you think about who is involved with all the allegations......
I doubt Labour will be making any accusations of postal vote rigging after reading it!

Just goes to show what a party and its candidates will do to hold onto power


Don't get carried away Derek...the Times is a Murdoch paper.

There's a more sober report in todays Guardian...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardianpolitics/story/0,,1292007,00.html

...note the phrase "largely unsubstantiated allegations of fraud".

Some people will go to any lengths to dicredit others, even if it means throwing money away on spurious allegations to the High Court.

Originally posted by Greybeard
Don't get carried away Derek...the Times is a Murdoch paper.

There's a more sober report in todays Guardian...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardianpolitics/story/0,,1292007,00.html

...note the phrase "largely unsubstantiated allegations of fraud".

Some people will go to any lengths to dicredit others, even if it means throwing money away on spurious allegations to the High Court.


Thanks for that one.....Each paper has its own stories making it very hard to believe what is going off around us.

I read the electoral commission findings this morning and although I don't accuse any one party or person or alledged fraud, there must be something that has happened to cause the investigations and accusations that are flying around
OR! could this just be something to take our minds off more pressing issues?.

Either way...it looks like we will be able to choose where and how we want to vote in future

Originally posted by Tony
Derek, can we please be clear here?

As a losing candidate for the Woodhouse Ward are you saying that you think there is evidence of fraud at the last election?

That's a pretty serious allegation.

Tony! I have only stated what I saw at the count!....I have made no direct allegations of fraud or any other statement relating to the subject.
As far as your question asks.."THINK there is evidence?"
I don't realy know! and I don't realy care.
If there was then good luck to them.

Thinking that there is a fraud is a long way from making a statement that there was fraud as in the newspaper reports.
I can think what I like..but I can't say what I like!

As a losing candidate as you so put it!
I did not bother in the least about losing in fact it was a cert that I was not going to get in.
The whole point of standing is just that....To stand, give an alternative and hope for the best result that one can get.
At least I have the guts and the conviction to stand up and be counted.....not sit back and leave everything and moan about it afterwards.


I left the count before my results were announced....mainly because I did not realy care about winning or losing and enjoyed a nice pint at the Bluewaters pub at Victoria Quay.( Better than politics....)

Originally posted by DerekH

I left the count before my results were announced....mainly because I did not realy care about winning or losing and enjoyed a nice pint at the Bluewaters pub at Victoria Quay.( Better than politics....)

Will you be using this statement in your next election address?

Originally posted by max
Will you be using this statement in your next election address?

Hey what a good idea!....I'm a real person!

An honest polititian........Nah!!!! they would call me a liar!

I would be branded as stupid thinking that I would get a seat in sheffield at the moment...........I do have seriouse concerns for my area and so should we all!
It's what we do with those concerns that count!.

Here's one pledge that I will make!
If! I ever get a seat in Sheffield, I will donate 50% of my earnings from being a councillor to the Jessops Hospital then ask all other councillors to do the same.

Need I say more?

Is a councillors salary so high that you can live on just 10% of it?

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
Is a councillors salary so high that you can live on just 10% of it?
Since when does giving 50% leave one with 10%????

Go back to school and get your maths gcse's.

THis statement just goes to show what a shocking state our education system is in...

and what a state your knowledge of the BNP is I'm afraid:


All BNP candidates for elected positions such as MSPs, MEPs and MPs sign a contract that 40% of the annual salary will go back to the party directly to help the growth of the party


http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/2004_aug/news_aug12.htm


Did you know they are also racist?

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
and what a state your knowledge of the BNP is I'm afraid:


All BNP candidates for elected positions such as MSPs, MEPs and MPs sign a contract that 40% of the annual salary will go back to the party directly to help the growth of the party


http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/2004_aug/news_aug12.htm


Did you know they are also racist?

That is true...however I am not standing for any of the positions you have mentioned......

It does not apply to councillors.
But thanks for the quote...

Greybeard's link to the Times article produced this right at the bottom:
Police investigations into alleged electoral discrepancies.have been launched in Greater Manchester, Cheshire, Lancashire, West Yorkshire and Derbyshire.

Supporters of all parties were involved in the misuse of postal ballots, according to High Court documents calling for the election results to be declared invalid.

Well I think you should double check this.

It does state: for elected positions

and the specific positons are only used as examples (such as)
not a definite list.

Also since the BNP have no MP’s or MEP’s (and to the best of my knowledge no MSP’s) it would seem pointless to make this claim unless it applied to all elected positions including councillors.

I’d hate for you to be accused of fraud by making election promises you could not keep.

Right ,first of all this is about election fraud and NOT about the BNP.
As for wheather their has indeed been fraud we will have to wait and see.
I have to take issue with derek on one point and that is we all in the party who stood for election take the result very seriously,I personally was very dissapointed to not have won even though I came behind labour and stuffed the rest.
And may I say I think at least we had the guts to stand unlike some on here who simply pontificate and do nothing.

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
Well I think you should double check this.

It does state: for elected positions

and the specific positons are only used as examples (such as)
not a definite list.

Also since the BNP have no MP’s or MEP’s (and to the best of my knowledge no MSP’s) it would seem pointless to make this claim unless it applied to all elected positions including councillors.[quote]

I’d hate for you to be accused of fraud by making election promises you could not keep.


why I should answer your question as at present is noteable!
Your comments are noted...pity that you cannot comprehend what anyone says to you...are you getting disability support?

There seems to be no reason that I should answer your questions on the grounds that you do not have the facts nor the brain power to comprehend the thread that you are in.

I do not wish to insult you but in all honesty...you do not know what you are talking about!
AS far as the statement I made....I will keep it..!!!!..50% of my earnings from the council will go to jessops and the childrens hospital as i know that Jessops has closed and is now at the Hallamshire West wing.



No fraud there!

Let momma take care of the changing of the nappy

Originally posted by royjames
Right ,first of all this is about election fraud and NOT about the BNP.
As for weather their has indeed been fraud we will have to wait and see.
I have to take issue with derek on one point and that is we all in the party who stood for election take the result very seriously,I personally was very disappointed to not have won even though I came behind labour and stuffed the rest.
And may I say I think at least we had the guts to stand unlike some on here who simply pontificate and do nothing.

Well for once I (partly) agree with Roy. I have lots of respect for those that stand for office, even if I don't agree with their politics.

However, I reserve the right to continue to brand the BNP as a racist party that takes advantage of insecurity, just like the Nazi's in the 1930's. They play on fear, and attract the worst kind of thugs and Nazi's to the ranks.

Good God, who would have thought that New Labour were funding all these left wing socialists.
Postal voting has always been open to abuse.
I worked in elderly care for many years where postal voting has been the norm for many many years. I know of one person who had dementia who voted communist instead of Tory and insisted that they wanted to vote communist, i know this because I ticked the box for them.
A libDem candidate or whatever they were called at the time was jailed for going in to an eldery unit at Stocksbridge and taking all the ballot papers and voting for themselves. This was a few years ago and i think they got 18 months.
As somebody who interested in this area I would like to see a return to the ballot box but the box's to be put in places where people go, like supermarkets.
And can I just add, so there are no misunderstandings wherever I see the BNP standing I will do my best and fight against them.

Originally posted by DerekH


There seems to be no reason that I should answer your questions on the grounds that you do not have the facts nor the brain power to comprehend the thread that you are in.





I was hoping you could clarify why the BNP would make a statement boasting about how well funded the were because all theirs MP’s and MEP’s donate 40% of their income, when (thankfully) they have no MP’s or MEP’s.

(i've still not checked on MSP's i was hoping you could help me on this one, but again just insults)

I still think it’s reasonable to conclude therefore that “for elected position” applies to elected councillors as well. But since you used your reply to insult me again instead of clarifying the situation I’m jut kept speculating.

If your reply to this further request for information is just insults please don’t bother as if anything it isn’t helping you in your bid to be seen as a respectful candidate. I’ve never read such comments written by a Labour, Conservative Lib Dem or Green candidate but then they don’t come from a party led by a man with convictions for inciting racial hatred (and soon no doubt, religious)

I’m sorry to keep mentioning the BNP but when you use this thread to promote your next election campaign I think it’s fair that people challenge you.

To the other candidates on this thread I can assure you I am not criticising or degraded your achievements in even standing and with the obvious exception of the BNP I do respect all candidates standing.

It’s just such a shame that this party of thugs in suits is poisoning our local democracy.

Originally posted by DerekH
..pity that you cannot comprehend what anyone says to you...are you getting disability support?


If anyone had any doubts about the bnp being the natural successors to the nazis this line should dispel them. Linking intelligence and disability was one of the justifications for sending so many disabled people to the gas chambers. The bnp haven't changed since they were the national front and with attitudes like this they never will.

There's your electoral fraud - the bnp no longer supporting nazi policies.

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
I was hoping you could clarify why the BNP would make a statement boasting about how well funded the were because all theirs MP’s and MEP’s donate 40% of their income, when (thankfully) they have no MP’s or MEP’s.

(i've still not checked on MSP's i was hoping you could help me on this one, but again just insults)

I still think it’s reasonable to conclude therefore that “for elected position” applies to elected councillors as well. But since you used your reply to insult me again instead of clarifying the situation I’m jut kept speculating.

If your reply to this further request for information is just insults please don’t bother as if anything it isn’t helping you in your bid to be seen as a respectful candidate. I’ve never read such comments written by a Labour, Conservative Lib Dem or Green candidate but then they don’t come from a party led by a man with convictions for inciting racial hatred (and soon no doubt, religious)

I’m sorry to keep mentioning the BNP but when you use this thread to promote your next election campaign I think it’s fair that people challenge you.

To the other candidates on this thread I can assure you I am not criticising or degraded your achievements in even standing and with the obvious exception of the BNP I do respect all candidates standing.

It’s just such a shame that this party of thugs in suits is poisoning our local democracy.

After reading your posts again I did not see any request for the information...you made statements and the questions that you did ask were based on facts that you had misread.
Your most recent statement


why the BNP would make a statement boasting about how well funded the were because all theirs MP’s and MEP’s donate 40% of their income,

Please show me where you got this statement from as to my knowledge...no one has made this comment!


As far as insults and slagging........From your first post and subsequent posts all you have done is slag the BNP!

This thread is about the election fraud investigation that is ongoing NOT THE BNP!

You have also stated that the fraud was invented by the BNP which is not true.
Your statements to date have been derogotive and slanderouse with facts that have no foundation....

Originally posted by max
If anyone had any doubts about the bnp being the natural successors to the nazis this line should dispel them. Linking intelligence and disability was one of the justifications for sending so many disabled people to the gas chambers. The bnp haven't changed since they were the national front and with attitudes like this they never will.

There's your electoral fraud - the bnp no longer supporting nazi policies.

......this was your thread....how has it turned into a slinging match about the BNP?

Your last comment is an allegation! Please see that you can back up your claim 100% and in doing so please be personal about it.
I would like nothing more than to see you in court for a defamation suit.

You dont see me slagging off other parties or their candidates....Is this the only way that labour and other parties work by discrediting and doing political assasinations to get their own way.

What makes your party so squeeky clean?
Your party has lied and made promises that they have not kept. increased taxes whilst stating that they will not.
Taken our country to war for no real reason.

(If you want to say the war was justified to depose a dictator...why is it that we are not doing the same in Africa , Mugabe etc)


I can go on.......but I dont think the post would handle the number of characters.

So the BNP were against the Iraq war?

Originally posted by carcrash
So the BNP were against the Iraq war?

Yes I can comfortably say that as the war was waged with false information and no real justification.....we were against it

Originally posted by DerekH
50% of my earnings from the council will go to jessops and the childrens hospital as i know that Jessops has closed and is now at the Hallamshire West.
So, are you looking forward to trying to live on four grand a year?

Originally posted by cornfed_pig
So, are you looking forward to trying to live on four grand a year?
Who says I need to live off 4 grand a year........

Being a councillor does not mean that I have to give up my business

Originally posted by DerekH
Who says I need to live off 4 grand a year........

Being a councillor does not mean that I have to give up my business
Ah, so you're looking forward to dedicating sufficient time to your business to enable you to eat and keep a roof over your head that you won't be able to commit sufficient time to being a councillor.

Or do you believe that elected politics should be restricted to the wealthy?

Originally posted by cornfed_pig
Ah, so you're looking forward to dedicating sufficient time to your business to enable you to eat and keep a roof over your head that you won't be able to commit sufficient time to being a councillor.

Or do you believe that elected politics should be restricted to the wealthy?

Numerous councillors are in full time employment always have been just like MP's. I kave known scores of Councillors over the years and don't know one who gave up their job when they became a councillor. Infact the reverse is often true ie Councillors do lots of networking and when they cease to come off the council they slither into a nice little job.

Originally posted by cornfed_pig
Ah, so you're looking forward to dedicating sufficient time to your business to enable you to eat and keep a roof over your head that you won't be able to commit sufficient time to being a councillor.

Or do you believe that elected politics should be restricted to the wealthy?

A lot of councillors hold down a job and commit sufficient time to the issues and meetings that have to be attended.

As elected councillors may only be in office for one term it would be irresponsible for them to give up their jobs just for the period of their time in office.

I would agree that it does make things a little harder to sort things out but attendance to council meetings are held twice a week if my memory serves me correct and the renumeration reflects that.

I don't believe that the wealthy should be the only ones that should be in politics...........it is the working man that should be able to have a voice as in most cases, it is the working man who pays for the decisions that are made regarding his future.

I hope that this has answered your questions...However......this thread is about the election fraud allegations and I have gone off the subject myself with many other posts and I am calling it a day putting posts in here untill the subject returns to what it was intended

Well to bring it back on topic, can one of you with suspicions clearly say what they are?

All I have heard so far is some allegations about 'vote stealing' and a rant about what pile voting papers were put in.

It's as clear as mud to me at the moment.

Originally posted by Tony
Well to bring it back on topic, can one of you with suspicions clearly say what they are?

All I have heard so far is some allegations about 'vote stealing' and a rant about what pile voting papers were put in.

It's as clear as mud to me at the moment.

Tony, I dont think that anyone on here has to date made any allegations regarding the fraud that is under investigation and as yet no party or individual has come forward to give any information.

I cannot understand why it is that the newspapers have made the statements without giving any info about who has made the allegations.

So do you think this will turn out to be politicians making cheap political shots?

After all, the hardest thing is to disprove a lie!

Originally posted by Tony
So do you think this will turn out to be politicians making cheap political shots?

After all, the hardest thing is to disprove a lie!

As per usual........All you ever get to hear these days is who can discredit the other parties better.

A pity that politicians all tell the voters what the other parties have done wrong and not what they have done.
If they did, I would think that people would start to trust those that admit to failure instead of blaming the other party/s and making allegations that make a mockery out of the whole process.

Originally posted by DerekH
Tony, I dont think that anyone on here has to date made any allegations regarding the fraud that is under investigation ...

There you go again derek, not reading the thread thoroughly. Have a look here and you'll see what the allegations are about:

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?postid=159581#post159581

Aha! I missed it too Max - apologies. The allegation is specifically about an individual though, not a party.

Originally posted by DerekH

Please show me where you got this statement from as to my knowledge...no one has made this comment!


I provided a link to the article on the BNP website which was slagging off the SNP’s for having funding problems and boasting about how the BNP will not face the same problems. If the Link is broken it is easy to find the article on the homepage (See the BNP slag’s of over parties to, if you hate is so much why not quit?)

Originally posted by DerekH
As far as insults and slagging........From your first post and subsequent posts all you have done is slag the BNP!


Correct me if I’m wrong but at no point have I personally abused or attacked you.
Certainly not insulting your intelligence or accusing you of suffering a disability, something I find incredibly offensive.

I do not know you and I will not make assumptions about you, I am more then ready to accept the fact that you are not racist. Many BNP councillors and members are not in any way racist.

The vanguard of the BNP is however undeniably racist, with strong Neo Nazi links. The fact that you deny this worries me. Spend some time on Stormfront and read the opinions of the core BNP membership to see just the kind of people attracted to the BNP.
Surely you must be aware of the politics and opinions of John Tyndal the BNP’s founder

As I have said my problem is not with you, as I do not know you, it is with the BNP. I f you really care about your community and want to change things then why not stand as an independent instead of relying upon the support of the many many racists at the heart of the BNP.

You may despise racism but by standing on a BNP platform you are promoting Fascism and Racism of the most dangerous kind


Originally posted by DerekH
This thread is about the election fraud investigation that is ongoing NOT THE BNP!

I agree, maybe you should stop trying to promote your next election campaign with pledges to charity.

Speculation only but....... looking at the elction results for Central ward here (http://www.sheffield.gov.uk/facts--figures/election-results/election-results-2004/central) it would seem that the successful lib dem councillor was streets ahead of his lib dem colleagues in terms of the number of votes gained. Page 50 of the Electoral Commission Report says that a candidate (referred to as he) received many more votes than his fellow party candidates. All the other parties seem to be in the same region of votes cast for each of their candidates.

Originally posted by Mo
Speculation only but....... looking at the elction results for Central ward here (http://www.sheffield.gov.uk/facts--figures/election-results/election-results-2004/central) it would seem that the successful lib dem councillor was streets ahead of his lib dem colleagues in terms of the number of votes gained. Page 50 of the Electoral Commission Report says that a candidate (referred to as he) received many more votes than his fellow party candidates. All the other parties seem to be in the same region of votes cast for each of their candidates.

Thanks Mo for that link. We're now back to the content of the first post which started this thread.

Moderator - pruned off everything since 2am on Sunday night as it had deviated well clear of the topic

Normal service will now (hopefully) be resumed