After years of thinking that those who take drugs are the victims of crime, dealers and soceity my view has changed with personal experiences. I now find it hard to listen to the sob stories of those who have had an easy loving up bringing and support through their adult life who are addicted to drugs. I can understand how in certain circumstances addicts are victims but can we really feel sorry for those that aren't?

I was wondering what other peoples views and experiences are?

Smoking + drinking are drugs and used by large sections of Sheffielders. The only difference is that by some quirk those are the legal drugs.

Smoking + drinking are drugs and used by large sections of Sheffielders. The only difference is that by some quirk those are the legal drugs.

Which leads us towards legalisation of the majority of drugs, taxation, quality control, etc...

Which leads us towards legalisation of the majority of drugs, taxation, quality control, etc...
for example pharmaceuticals

Legalising drugs would certainly wipe out the vast majority of related crime. They'd be dirt-cheap from Boots, so addicts would not have to steal to fund their addiction; and criminal gangs would no longer be fighting turf wars over who got to supply which areas.

Conversely, it may lead to an upsurge in addicts; but such evidence as we have, shows that back in the '60s when heroin addicts could obtain their heroin legally, there were VASTLY less of them than there are now. Boots would not be advertising heroin and pressurising cannabis users into trying it; today's drug dealers tend to do exactly that, because profits are higher on heroin.

Legalising drugs would certainly wipe out the vast majority of related crime. They'd be dirt-cheap from Boots, so addicts would not have to steal to fund their addiction; and criminal gangs would no longer be fighting turf wars over who got to supply which areas.

Conversely, it may lead to an upsurge in addicts; but such evidence as we have, shows that back in the '60s when heroin addicts could obtain their heroin legally, there were VASTLY less of them than there are now. Boots would not be advertising heroin and pressurising cannabis users into trying it; today's drug dealers tend to do exactly that, because profits are higher on heroin.
i'd say profits are even higher with coke

i'd say profits are even higher with coke


Not addictive, though. A heroin user is going to come back to you whether he wants to take the drug or not; it's no longer his choice.

Not addictive, though. A heroin user is going to come back to you whether he wants to take the drug or not; it's no longer his choice.
youve obviously not heard of crack, also to be fair iv mates who smoked heroin and quit, some still take, whereas with coke they always go back and spend considerably more powder/rock

Crack isn't the same as coke though is it.

Would legalising drugs solve the problems of the friends and family of people that use them and become addicted because they would be cheaper and easier to get hold of or would it mean they get less help and support because there would be more of them.

Would legalising drugs solve the problems of the friends and family of people that use them and become addicted because they would be cheaper and easier to get hold of or would it mean they get less help and support because there would be more of them.

If all drugs were legalised, there could be a huge amount of funding available to provide help and treatment for addicts; from the massive sum currently being invested in the unwinnable war on drugs and from the sale and taxation of legal drugs. The fact that legal drugs were cheaper would mean addicts would bew much less likely to have to steal to fund their habit.

Would legalising drugs solve the problems of the friends and family of people that use them and become addicted because they would be cheaper and easier to get hold of or would it mean they get less help and support because there would be more of them.
It might solve some, through prevention of addiction to the harder class A's by todays youth.
Regarding the problems of family and friends, one being theiving from - it would probably reduce, but not stop.
Some problems are there already and just escalated by ones drug use.

Even if legalised (government would make a mint in taxing it) they'd still be that seedy element to it, they'd just move onto other things....ie sniffing uranium or somat :)

As for the dealers, I reckon any dealer caught with substances should be forced to take it (they always used the excuse that its for personal use anyway) so let them see and feel the errors of their ways.

Easy get tougher at the Customs. Sort out the police on the take and seize every asset off the real scum of society the people who dish the drugs out to street hoods, the ones who live on millionaire row and send their kids to private schools and have medical insurance etc.

Then and only then will you get drugs out of society.

You see to get rid of a bees nest you don't kill each bee individually you take out the Queen. And then you make sure there's nomore nests around and soon the bees just die out!

As for the dealers, I reckon any dealer caught with substances should be forced to take it (they always used the excuse that its for personal use anyway) so let them see and feel the errors of their ways.

That's one of the barmiest ideas I've heard in a long time....

http://www.legalisedrugs.co.uk/

The very ruthless pursuit of, and death sentences for drug dealers is my answer. They are after all killers in a round about, slow and painful way anyhow. They do not deserve to be treat as humans but as vermin.

People who buy cannabis and sell it onto several friends should be executed then.
A nice balanced solution, it's always pleasant to see such well thought out ideas.

The very ruthless pursuit of, and death sentences for drug dealers is my answer. They are after all killers in a round about, slow and painful way anyhow. They do not deserve to be treat as humans but as vermin.
Most people do not die of drugs nor do they become addicts. It is a huge trade and there is no way it will stop because it is highly profitable and totally un regulated. Dealers now promote their product because it makes so much profit and so they create the demand, selling a product that is physiologically or psychologically addictive and unregulated is the perfect product profit wise. Regulating it does not mean that it will create more junkies, it will remove the huge cash incentive of being a dealer and it will not be in anyones interest to create demand and so it would gradually reduce the number of users. Most of all it will reduce the criminal element surrounding the drugs trade.

[QUOTE=Darbees]Most people do not die of drugs ...QUOTE]


This is true. They usually die of heart failure:hihi:

People who buy cannabis and sell it onto several friends should be executed then.
A nice balanced solution, it's always pleasant to see such well thought out ideas.
I am pleased that my solution met with your approval. You obviously have the insight, as I do, to realise that drastic problems call for drastic solutions.
We cannot continue with our tolerant attitude indefinately. It has been proven not to work and so the problem simply deepens and expands. As I am sure you understand, from your reply, zero tolerance at some stage must be the answer....the only answer. How many people who buy cannabis and sell it on to a few friends would continue to do this after the executions commenced.....err about none! Yes the solution works, as you have the insight to understand......Im sure,

I am pleased that my solution met with your approval. You obviously have the insight, as I do, to realise that drastic problems call for drastic solutions.
We cannot continue with our tolerant attitude indefinately. It has been proven not to work and so the problem simply deepens and expands. As I am sure you understand, from your reply, zero tolerance at some stage must be the answer....the only answer.
but who is going to sell you a crack? you'd need one to think implementing the murder of drug dealers would solve the "drug" problem, this problem being the nature of drug trade = black market untaxed unregulated goods

In what way is cannabis use a problem. I mean a major problem, to be treated different from something like alcohol use.

Unless you also advocate death sentences for bar staff.

Been saying this for years - legalise the lot. Make every drug available at Boots to those who want them. Would halve the crime rate overnight and lessen usage (if it's not 'dangerous' or 'cool' then kids will not be as interested).

For those who die through its use, this is just natural selection in action.

If all drugs were legalised, there could be a huge amount of funding available to provide help and treatment for addicts; from the massive sum currently being invested in the unwinnable war on drugs and from the sale and taxation of legal drugs. The fact that legal drugs were cheaper would mean addicts would bew much less likely to have to steal to fund their habit.

Nothing personal 'Halibut': I've seen this assertion on loads of posts - Why do you think so?

Legal fags/tobacco aren't cheaper than 'bent' ones.

Nothing personal 'Halibut': I've seen this assertion on loads of posts - Why do you think so?

Legal fags/tobacco aren't cheaper than 'bent' ones.

The point being you don't hear of many people turning to burglary or mugging to fund their 20 Benson a day habit. I'm sure if they made a shot of heroin a fiver in Superdrug, someone else would be selling it round the pubs for £3. People would still not have to steal to fund their habit though.

The point being you don't hear of many people turning to burglary or mugging to fund their 20 Benson a day habit. I'm sure if they made a shot of heroin a fiver in Superdrug, someone else would be selling it round the pubs for £3. People would still not have to steal to fund their habit though.

I'm not disputing whether your overall thesis is correct: how would I know?
But this reasoning seems iffy.

You may not hear of burglary/mugging for fags but if your druggie smokes then they're being paid for by the burglary/mugging that you mention.

How much is heroin/crack cocaine?

Do you think the state can somehow be more efficient than the dealers? I just don't see how.They don't own the production system and the farmers will presumably sell to the highest bidder or those offering the greatest 'or else' threat.

As I understand the crack business: if it was 1p a go they'd work their way through a kings ransom easily enough as the only thing is:- get another hit.
It matters not at all how cheap it is in Boots: when their own resources run out, and they will, they'll be after yours & mine.

The argument seems to be: make the stuff so cheap that dole dwellers can fill their boots.(so they don't have to steal etc )

I simply can't see that legalisation, in itself, can achieve this.
It'll end up being subsidised or it would be the first time in history that a licensed product has undercut a smuggled competitor: as far as I am aware.

I am pleased that my solution met with your approval. You obviously have the insight, as I do, to realise that drastic problems call for drastic solutions.
We cannot continue with our tolerant attitude indefinately. It has been proven not to work and so the problem simply deepens and expands. As I am sure you understand, from your reply, zero tolerance at some stage must be the answer....the only answer. How many people who buy cannabis and sell it on to a few friends would continue to do this after the executions commenced.....err about none! Yes the solution works, as you have the insight to understand......Im sure,
It would seem you are unaware that they have the death penalty for drugs offences in a fair few places, China and Indonesia for example where they still have an illegal drugs trade.

Maybe you should do a little research before coming up with your next plan.

Nothing personal 'Halibut': I've seen this assertion on loads of posts - Why do you think so?

Legal fags/tobacco aren't cheaper than 'bent' ones.
Drugs being illegal means that they have to be produced, trafficked and distributed covertly and the proceeds from the trade has to be laundered all this adds massive costs to the end price of the product.

‘Bent’ alcohol and tobacco don’t have these problems as such you really can’t compare the two.

Incidentally does anybody know how the price the NHS pays for medical grade opiates and cocaine compares to the street price?

It is pointless advocating the death penalty for anything here because it is simply never going to happen.

The drugs business can't be compared with cheap fags and tobacco because the people importing and selling them are not doing it for huge profit, they are not buying them on the black market, nor are they using intimidatory methods of collecting the money and there isn't a chain of levels of dealers who all require a cut of the profits. They sell to friends, colleagues etc for pocket money but they do not do anything to start young people using booze and fags in the first place because it's not worthwhile.

The drugs trade like all trades is dictated by supply and demand. Because of the huge profits, dealers create the demand by pushing drugs such as heroin onto people by giving it away in the first place. As this drug is physiologically addictive the user soon develops a craving and then the dealer is in business as the user can't do without it. If drugs were legalised it should be totally illegal to promote them through advertising to new users. If someone wanted to become drug user they could buy them in the same way from the chemist and there would be no need to find a dealer. Existing users would be able to buy legally from chemists and sinc they are the bread and butter of the trade there would no longer be any incentive to be a dealer. Many of the deaths from drugs are caused by them being "cut" with poisonous substances in order to make even more profit, if drugs were legalised they would be good quality and that would reduce deaths from dodgy quality stuff. There will always be some people who will want drugs and so they should be available, there would then be no reason for those people to harm anyone but themselves and we all have the right to do that.

Those who advocate keeping it illegal with draconian penalties cannot see beyond this as a purely moral issue that is bad, bad, bad. Yes, illegal dealers should be heavily penalised and they are but that is having no effect as each one who is locked up is replaced by someone else. We need to cut off the demand as much as the supply.

It would seem you are unaware that they have the death penalty for drugs offences in a fair few places, China and Indonesia for example where they still have an illegal drugs trade.

Maybe you should do a little research before coming up with your next plan.
I do realise that the death penalty is operating in other countries for drug dealers! The point that I am making is that once the legislation is in place we pursue these dealers with real vigour and bring them to justice. They are killing our children! We must make the pursuit an absolute priority. We do have the resources to do this.
At present we spend too many resources attacking the fall out symptoms of drug use...robbery, burglary, prostitution, muggings, shoplifting,gun crime, murder.....you name it so many offences are drug linked....but these are only the symptoms, the disease is that drugs are so freely available.
I suggest that you do a little research into the depth of drug related crime and post again when u understand the full nature and extent of the problem.
Many do gooders will never advocate the death penalty.....I know that...however the death penalty for drug dealers would lead to a net saving in lives and a huge reduction in crime. The only people to get killed would be worthless lowlife subhuman scumbags anyhow.Theyre just vermin!
To say that the death penalty will never happen.......well never say never.Nothing is impossible when the circumstances dictate. Look at the rise of the Third Reich.....who ever would have believed it...yet it happened. The problem is however that most people do not yet realise the seriousness of situation...when they do...they will wake up!

Give them all to me...

but who is going to sell you a crack? you'd need one to think implementing the murder of drug dealers would solve the "drug" problem, this problem being the nature of drug trade = black market untaxed unregulated goods
No drug dealers = no drugs! To execute drug dealers does not constitute murder......vermin control would be a better description!

I do realise that the death penalty is operating in other countries for drug dealers! The point that I am making is that once the legislation is in place we pursue these dealers with real vigour and bring them to justice. They are killing our children! We must make the pursuit an absolute priority.
Many do gooders will never advocate the death penalty.....I know that...however the death penalty for drug dealers would lead to a net saving in lives and a huge reduction in crime. The only people to get killed would be worthless lowlife subhuman scumbags anyhow.Theyre just vermin!

Your point here rests on a number of baseless assumptions, number one being that a capital sentence for dealers would stop people dealing. It wouldn't. The most likely candidates for the rope would be the many poor 'mules' who are driven by desperation, poverty and the promise of easy cash to bring stuff in through customs. If you're so convinced of the efficacy of capiutal punishment for drug dealing can you explain why it still occurs in countries that have it?
The disease is not that drugs are so easily available, it's that they're illegal - and thus supporting a huge black economy. Legalise and you remove the profit motive that drives all the crime. Oh, and another thing - '' the only people to get killed would be worthless lowlife subhuman scumbags anyhow''
Really? I think you'll find that of the drug users in this country, there are many more that are productive, useful responsible citizens than not, that the fraction who misuse to the point of being dangerous is relatively small and moreover, that depending on the way we define the word 'dealer' there would be an awful lot of very good people, some of whom you know and respect going to hang. (Except that we wouldn't, because it won't happen)
You're remark about the rise of the Third Reich was interesting; it's exactly that kind of reductionist thinking - ''all dealers are lowlife subhuman scumbags, let's kill them all'' - that feeds the rise of fascism.

I do realise that the death penalty is operating in other countries for drug dealers!
So you admit that you were lying when you said earlier ‘Yes the solution works’ as you are apparently aware that it hasn’t worked elsewhere.

The point that I am making is that once the legislation is in place we pursue these dealers with real vigour and bring them to justice. They are killing our children!
Nonsense people who sell the occasional eighth of weed to their mates are killing nobody’s children.

We must make the pursuit an absolute priority. We do have the resources to do this.
At present we spend too many resources attacking the fall out symptoms of drug use...robbery, burglary, prostitution, muggings, shoplifting,gun crime, murder.....you name it so many offences are drug linked....
Will you please provide some evidence that any of those are linked to cannabis use for example.

but these are only the symptoms, the disease is that drugs are so freely available.
I suggest that you do a little research into the depth of drug related crime and post again when u understand the full nature and extent of the problem.
Maybe I’m aware of the extent to which drug related crime is a problem but I happen not to think that executing people for selling a joint to their mates will do anything to improve our society.

Many do gooders will never advocate the death penalty.....I know that...however the death penalty for drug dealers would lead to a net saving in lives and a huge reduction in crime.
Why would it? Because you say so, on what grounds do you make this claim?

The only people to get killed would be worthless lowlife subhuman scumbags anyhow.Theyre just vermin!
So in your world the justice system is perfect and never miscarries and selling a mate a bit of weed at cost renders you ‘vermin’, you really aren’t one for shades of grey are you.

To say that the death penalty will never happen.......well never say never.Nothing is impossible when the circumstances dictate. Look at the rise of the Third Reich.....who ever would have believed it...yet it happened. The problem is however that most people do not yet realise the seriousness of situation...when they do...they will wake up!
Well that was relevant :rolleyes:

No drug dealers = no drugs! To execute drug dealers does not constitute murder......vermin control would be a better description!
As I already pointed out and as you have previously conceded they have the death penalty for drugs offences in numerous countries throughout the world all of which so far as I’m aware still have a drugs trade.

As such the evidence would suggest that your ridiculously simplistic and brutal policy clearly doesn’t work anywhere near as well as you would have us believe.

No drug dealers = no drugs! To execute drug dealers does not constitute murder......vermin control would be a better description!

Another spectacularly flawed piece of thinking; if people couldn't buy what they needed from dealers they'd grow it - or travel to parts of the world where it can be found. Hey presto, dealing again. I know doctors, nurses, teachers, engineers, consulatants - people from all walks of life who've used drugs of one kind or another and may have dealt. As Plekhanov points out, technically speaking if a person gets hold of an eighth for a mate they're a dealer.
It is astonishingly arrogant and ignorant to characterise thousands of people you've never met and know nothing about as 'vermin' because of choices they make about what they put into their bodies.

I am pleased that my solution met with your approval. You obviously have the insight, as I do, to realise that drastic problems call for drastic solutions.
We cannot continue with our tolerant attitude indefinately. It has been proven not to work and so the problem simply deepens and expands. As I am sure you understand, from your reply, zero tolerance at some stage must be the answer....the only answer. How many people who buy cannabis and sell it on to a few friends would continue to do this after the executions commenced.....err about none! Yes the solution works, as you have the insight to understand......Im sure,

Tolerant attitude, you're having a laugh or something right?

The solution is not zero tolerance (we've already proven that prohibition cannot succeed), it's legalisation and regulation.
Your solution is unimplementable, unreasonable and wouldn't be acceptable to anyone except extremist fringe groups.

No drug dealers = no drugs! To execute drug dealers does not constitute murder......vermin control would be a better description!

We've been jailing drug dealers for the last thirty years. The drug supply has continually increased. In some US states, they do indeed put drug dealers to death, and it has continually increased over there as well.


Taking drug dealers out of circulation does NOT eliminate the supply of drugs. Nothing does. If there's a demand, there WILL be a supply, no matter what you try to do to stop it.

So you admit that you were lying when you said earlier ‘Yes the solution works’ as you are apparently aware that it hasn’t worked elsewhere.


Nonsense people who sell the occasional eighth of weed to their mates are killing nobody’s children.


Will you please provide some evidence that any of those are linked to cannabis use for example.


Maybe I’m aware of the extent to which drug related crime is a problem but I happen not to think that executing people for selling a joint to their mates will do anything to improve our society.


Why would it? Because you say so, on what grounds do you make this claim?


So in your world the justice system is perfect and never miscarries and selling a mate a bit of weed at cost renders you ‘vermin’, you really aren’t one for shades of grey are you.


Well that was relevant :rolleyes:
It is the dealers...not the users that I would subject to vermin control. The solution would work if as I have stated previously we made this the absolute priority that it should be. Weed very often leads to the taking of harder drugs....the slippery slope. Yor right I am not one for shades of grey.Yor very much one for trivialising very serious problems and while ever this apathy continues the problems will deepen. The point about the Third Reich was an excellent point....whether you regard it as relevant or not.
The point is that when circumstances dictate dramatic solutions will always be found thus the death penalty could be reinstated at some stage when people finally wake up and realise the seriousness of the situation.
My final point is that the law is there for all to adhere to....drug dealing IS illegal on any scale. I see you would like to pick and choose which laws you would like to obey. I cant go around murdering people just because I dont happen to agree with the law that makes it illegal.

The very ruthless pursuit of, and death sentences for drug dealers is my answer. They are after all killers in a round about, slow and painful way anyhow. They do not deserve to be treat as humans but as vermin.

So every newsagent and pub landlord in the country deserves the death sentence?

I don't forsee anyone taking you up on your idea.

How much is heroin/crack cocaine?

Do you think the state can somehow be more efficient than the dealers? I just don't see how.They don't own the production system and the farmers will presumably sell to the highest bidder or those offering the greatest 'or else' threat.

The NHS pays £12.30 for one hundred doses of heroin. I don't think you can buy it on the street that cheaply. Another of your theories destroyed.


As I understand the crack business: if it was 1p a go they'd work their way through a kings ransom easily enough as the only thing is:- get another hit.
It matters not at all how cheap it is in Boots: when their own resources run out, and they will, they'll be after yours & mine.

And here goes another one. Being addicted does NOT mean that you need to take crack constantly, one hit after another, throughout your waking hours. Anyone who tried to do so would be dead within the hour, long before they got to trying to steal anything.


Maybe you should actually know something ABOUT the drug problem, before making yourself look utterly ridiculous trying to solve it.

Another spectacularly flawed piece of thinking; if people couldn't buy what they needed from dealers they'd grow it - or travel to parts of the world where it can be found. Hey presto, dealing again. I know doctors, nurses, teachers, engineers, consulatants - people from all walks of life who've used drugs of one kind or another and may have dealt. As Plekhanov points out, technically speaking if a person gets hold of an eighth for a mate they're a dealer.
It is astonishingly arrogant and ignorant to characterise thousands of people you've never met and know nothing about as 'vermin' because of choices they make about what they put into their bodies.
Drug dealing is illegal....whether you like the law or not.The reason that it is illegal is that drugs cause untold mysery and death....Full Stop.

So every newsagent and pub landlord in the country deserves the death sentence?

I don't forsee anyone taking you up on your idea.
Oh dear! I will choose not to reply. The puerility is repugnant!

Sometimes being in a minority merely indicates that all the idiots are on the same side!

It is the dealers...not the users that I would subject to vermin control. The solution would work if as I have stated previously we made this the absolute priority that it should be. Weed very often leads to the taking of harder drugs....the slippery slope. Yor right I am not one for shades of grey.Yor very much one for trivialising very serious problems and while ever this apathy continues the problems will deepen. The point about the Third Reich was an excellent point....whether you regard it as relevant or not.
The point is that when circumstances dictate dramatic solutions will always be found thus the death penalty could be reinstated at some stage when people finally wake up and realise the seriousness of the situation.
My final point is that the law is there for all to adhere to....drug dealing IS illegal on any scale. I see you would like to pick and choose which laws you would like to obey. I cant go around murdering people just because I dont happen to agree with the law that makes it illegal.

You've singularly failed to address any of the counter arguments. Repeating yourself ad nauseam isn't going to change anyones mind. How do you respond to, for example Heyeseys point that drug use and dealing continues unabated in the US states that practice capital punishment for dealers?

Drug dealing is illegal....whether you like the law or not.The reason that it is illegal is that drugs cause untold mysery and death....Full Stop.

Some people's use of drugs causes misery and death. For many more people drug use is a pleasure and an enhancer of life on a par with a good meal, making love,fine wine and a stroll in the country.

Oh dear! I will choose not to reply. The puerility is repugnant!


Yes, yours!

Ofcourse you won't reply, because you're unable to contruct a valid response. It's obvious that newsagents and pub landlords sell some of the most destructive drugs available, but ofcourse, with your blinkered and overly simplistic view of the world you simply cannot conceive the scope of the issue.

Oh dear! I will choose not to reply. The puerility is repugnant!

Does that mean that you can't find a good argument to explain why nicotine and alcohol are legal whilst canabis isn't?
Or did you just not understand that that was the point being made?

Drug dealing is illegal....whether you like the law or not.The reason that it is illegal is that drugs cause untold mysery and death....Full Stop.

Wrong. Drugs used to be legal, and they did not cause untold misery and death at that time.

Nicotine,on the other hand, is proven solidly to cause untold misery and death - tens of thousands of deaths every year - yet it remains legal. Ditto alcohol, despite the large number of deaths caused by it, directly or indirectly, every year.


That's three of your arguments completely obliterated by actual facts. Care to throw up any more for us?

Wrong. Drugs used to be legal, and they did not cause untold misery and death at that time.

Queen Victoria took Cannabis for her period pains.

Queen Victoria took Cannabis for her period pains.

That I didn't know, but it doesn't surprise me. I'm pretty sure cannabis was only criminalized in the early 20th century.

Wasn't it criminalised against the recommendations of the government committee set up to investigate what regulation was required. Or so I read recently.

The relentless pursuit and extermination of drug dealers would solve the problem if we threw huge resources behind it. At the moment greater resources are thrown behind mopping up the aftermath of drug abuse. It is time for radical thinking and radical solutions. Dont worry if you get scared I shall hold your hand!

You've singularly failed to address any of the counter arguments. Repeating yourself ad nauseam isn't going to change anyones mind. How do you respond to, for example Heyeseys point that drug use and dealing continues unabated in the US states that practice capital punishment for dealers?
I have addressed all your excuses for tolerance.

I have addressed all your excuses for tolerance.

Where? Can you please reiterate here in case I missed? Why should we criminalise the vast numbers of people for whom occasional or even regular drug use is a pleasurable recreation that has no negative impact on society?

Drug dealing is illegal....whether you like the law or not.The reason that it is illegal is that drugs cause untold mysery and death....Full Stop.

No it is not. Illegal Drug dealing is illegal, but there are many legal/licensed drugs that cause much more damage to society than illegal ones. Persistently ignoring this inconvenient "fact" doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I have addressed all your excuses for tolerance.

Only in your own mind perhaps, the rest of us are awaiting your logic on the matter.

I have addressed all your excuses for tolerance.
The US practices capital punishment for drug dealers (in some states only) ,but they do not make large enough funds available to pursue with vigour the dealers....plus their legal system is too slow. The other problem they have of course is that some states have the death penalty for dealers and neighbouring states do not. Thus importation is easier.....we are an island.
My whole arguament is that we should realise the seriousness of the situation very quickly, legislate and then throw the massive funds that we have available right now at pursuing dealers. Fast track them through court....then execute.
I am not saying legislate and then pussyfoot around. I am saying make this an ABSOLUTE priority. Such is the seriousness with which I regard this situation. Then sit back and watch the crime figures tumble.Someone mentioned the word fascism earlier.....no I am no fascist. But you cannot take it away from Hitler that he got things done....we should pursue drug dealers with his vigour and ruthlessness......they are murderers.....they poison our children. They kill our communities.

It is the dealers...not the users that I would subject to vermin control. The solution would work if as I have stated previously we made this the absolute priority that it should be. Weed very often leads to the taking of harder drugs....the slippery slope.
I don’t believe this ‘slippery slope’ exists what evidence do you have that it exists.

Yor right I am not one for shades of grey.Yor very much one for trivialising very serious problems and while ever this apathy continues the problems will deepen.
What rubbish I haven’t trivialised the problems that drug abusive poses to our society, I just think you have no idea how to solve these problems.

The point about the Third Reich was an excellent point....whether you regard it as relevant or not.
The point is that when circumstances dictate dramatic solutions will always be found thus the death penalty could be reinstated at some stage when people finally wake up and realise the seriousness of the situation.
Please do explain what exactly it is that you think the Nazi’s were a solution to and also how the problems caused by illegal narcotics in the UK are in any way analogous to the exceptional geopolitical situation which aid the Nazi’s rise to power.

My final point is that the law is there for all to adhere to....drug dealing IS illegal on any scale. I see you would like to pick and choose which laws you would like to obey.
Where do you see that I ‘would like to pick and choose which laws you would like to obey’? I don’t recall writing any such thing.

I cant go around murdering people just because I dont happen to agree with the law that makes it illegal.
What a absurd strawman, will you please respond to what I actually write rather that your own bizarre fantasies of what you’d like to respond to.

Drug dealing is illegal....whether you like the law or not.The reason that it is illegal is that drugs cause untold mysery and death....Full Stop.
So how many people were killed by cannabis last year and how many by tobacco & alcohol?

Oh dear! I will choose not to reply. The puerility is repugnant!
Are you really not aware that alcohol and tobacco are both addictive drugs which kill far more people each year than cannabis and ecstasy combined?

The relentless pursuit and extermination of drug dealers would solve the problem if we threw huge resources behind it. At the moment greater resources are thrown behind mopping up the aftermath of drug abuse. It is time for radical thinking and radical solutions. Dont worry if you get scared I shall hold your hand!

The only thing scarey is your thoughts on the matter. With rhetoric like yours we'll be back to death camps in no time at all. Hey, Hitler was a good guy 'cos he got rid of all these "undesirable jews that were messing up the place". How simplistic and totally wrong could you possibly be?

As for resources being thrown at the problem, what do you think governments have been doing for the last 40 years! The US has been fighting the "War on Drugs" nearly the entirety of my lifetime, all that's happened is that drugs are cheaper and more easily available than ever before.

The methods you advocate are basically prohibition, and we all know how that turned out. It increased criminality a thousandfold, and changed the perception of the law for millions (those who liked to drink in moderation).

The reality is that you will never stop people doing what they want to do. Contrary to popular belief, no one takes drugs to feel like crap!

Some people's use of drugs causes misery and death. For many more people drug use is a pleasure and an enhancer of life on a par with a good meal, making love,fine wine and a stroll in the country.
I disagree totally....yor using drugs as a means of escape from something.....try changing what it is that yor escaping from......I am surprised however that there are so many users of illegal substances on here.

The US practices capital punishment for drug dealers (in some states only) ,but they do not make large enough funds available to pursue with vigour the dealers....plus their legal system is too slow. The other problem they have of course is that some states have the death penalty for dealers and neighbouring states do not. Thus importation is easier.....we are an island.
My whole arguament is that we should realise the seriousness of the situation very quickly, legislate and then throw the massive funds that we have available right now at pursuing dealers. Fast track them through court....then execute.
I am not saying legislate and then pussyfoot around. I am saying make this an ABSOLUTE priority. Such is the seriousness with which I regard this situation. Then sit back and watch the crime figures tumble.Someone mentioned the word fascism earlier.....no I am no fascist. But you cannot take it away from Hitler that he got things done....we should pursue drug dealers with his vigour and ruthlessness......they are murderers.....they poison our children. They kill our communities.
But you still fail to address the fact that many thousands of people use illegal drugs in a non - harmful fashion. You also offer no argument to the view that to decriminalize would offset a great deal of the problems associated with the drugs trade.
Try this one for size; a family man, engaged in a socially productive job and a good parent likes to smoke a joint or three in his spare time.
Single woman, employed, enjoys an occasional night out with some banging tunes and an E.
PhD student, going to be scientist doing vital research into something terribly useful, ocasionally does some magic mushrooms.
Writer, journalist, looks after elderly parents, owns own home. Smokes a pipe of opium every friday night.
All of whom acquire a little of what they enjoy to share with their friends.
Why should these people be criminals? Why should they die?

The only thing scarey is your thoughts on the matter. With rhetoric like yours we'll be back to death camps in no time at all. Hey, Hitler was a good guy 'cos he got rid of all these "undesirable jews that were messing up the place". How simplistic and totally wrong could you possibly be?

As for resources being thrown at the problem, what do you think governments have been doing for the last 40 years! The US has been fighting the "War on Drugs" nearly the entirety of my lifetime, all that's happened is that drugs are cheaper and more easily available than ever before.

The methods you advocate are basically prohibition, and we all know how that turned out. It increased criminality a thousandfold, and changed the perception of the law for millions (those who liked to drink in moderation).

The reality is that you will never stop people doing what they want to do. Contrary to popular belief, no one takes drugs to feel like crap!
I fully expected my point about Hitler to be totally misrepresented and misinterpreted. My only reason for using his example was that if we are ruthlless enough to tackle major problems, we shall succeed. history has proved this.

But you still fail to address the fact that many thousands of people use illegal drugs in a non - harmful fashion. You also offer no argument to the view that to decriminalize would offset a great deal of the problems associated with the drugs trade.
Try this one for size; a family man, engaged in a socially productive job and a good parent likes to smoke a joint or three in his spare time.
Single woman, employed, enjoys an occasional night out with some banging tunes and an E.
PhD student, going to be scientist doing vital research into something terribly useful, ocasionally does some magic mushrooms.
Writer, journalist, looks after elderly parents, owns own home. Smokes a pipe of opium every friday night.
All of whom acquire a little of what they enjoy to share with their friends.
Why should these people be criminals? Why should they die?
As I have said before....and repeated I am not advocating the death penalty for users....just dealers.....take away the dealers and the useage dries up.It seems to me that you regard illegal drug useage by certain sections of the community to be O.K. It is not....it is illegal.it encourages useage by less responsible people....you become the devils advocate!

I disagree totally....yor using drugs as a means of escape from something.....try changing what it is that yor escaping from......I am surprised however that there are so many users of illegal substances on here.

a) I never said that I took drugs
b) Yes some people do take drugs as a means of escapism, some as an enhancement to the pleasure of a full and happy life - what's so negative about either position.
c) Your surprise at the number of people on SF who've used drugs is no surprise to me at all. It reinforces the view that you've already presented that you're speaking from an ill-informed and misguided position of moral outrage on a subject you have very little knowledge of.
It is highly likely that several people you know, like and admire are know or have in the past used drugs of various kinds.
Maybe you ought to speak to some of them?

I disagree totally....yor using drugs as a means of escape from something.....try changing what it is that yor escaping from......

And how is this different to anyone who goes to a bar and drowns their sorrows, or to forget the stresses of the day?


I am surprised however that there are so many users of illegal substances on here.

A purile and childish response, the sort of thing people tend to post when their arguement is so flawed it simply cannot stand up to scrutiny.

It's clear you're unable to respond to any posts with a cohesive argument, and also clear as to why none of your ideas can or ever will be put into practice. They're so short sighted, blinkered, wrong and vastly over simplified you're effectively talking nonsense.

I disagree totally....yor using drugs as a means of escape from something.....try changing what it is that yor escaping from......I am surprised however that there are so many users of illegal substances on here.

You're making assumptions that make you look stupid. Apart from alcohol and caffeine I don't use any drugs.

You seem to have some sort of perception problem surrounding the issue, and a rather hazy grasp of how the world actually operates and people behave.

Stop ignoring the question and explain why alcohol, nicotine, caffeine and other legal drugs are actually different to ones that have been classified?

As I have said before....and repeated I am not advocating the death penalty for users....just dealers.....take away the dealers and the useage dries up.

All of the people I've mentioned, if they procure something for someone else are dealers in the eyes of the law.
Are you getting cold feet? Only want to kill the big scary ones that have 'drug dealing scum' tattooed on their scary foreheads? Your repeated assertion that if we take away the dealers the supply dries up is utter nonsense
Have you ever heard of Prohibition in the USA? I challenge you to go and read up about it and then come back and say that removing supply stops demand. It's an utterly absurd notion and demonstrably false.

I fully expected my point about Hitler to be totally misrepresented and misinterpreted. My only reason for using his example was that if we are ruthlless enough to tackle major problems, we shall succeed. history has proved this.

I haven't seen any previous post by you regarding Hitler, I merely mentioned it because:-

A, You sound like a fascist dictator.
B, Your logic could easily be used to excuse his actions, or indeed, be a catalyst for them to happen again!

As for history, "history has proved this" to be false, and sheer folly! Last time I checked, Hitler lost the war!

I fully expected my point about Hitler to be totally misrepresented and misinterpreted. My only reason for using his example was that if we are ruthlless enough to tackle major problems, we shall succeed. history has proved this.

Actually didn't he prove that if you are ruthless enough to engage in a campaign of mass genocide that the world will mobilise to stop you and you'll blow your own brains out in a concrete bunker a few years later?

Yes, yours!

Ofcourse you won't reply, because you're unable to contruct a valid response. It's obvious that newsagents and pub landlords sell some of the most destructive drugs available, but ofcourse, with your blinkered and overly simplistic view of the world you simply cannot conceive the scope of the issue.
Oh dear.....the puerility astounds me....I bet your blonde.

The point is that when circumstances dictate dramatic solutions will always be found
My final point is that the law is there for all to adhere to....drug dealing IS illegal on any scale. I see you would like to pick and choose which laws you would like to obey. I cant go around murdering people just because I dont happen to agree with the law that makes it illegal. Yes and the dramatic solution is to legalise them.

No one can pick and choose which law to obey but we can pick and choose which ones we think ought to be changed. At present it is illegal to execute people in this country, I take it you would like to pick that law even though there is no evidence to show that execution is a deterrant, still plenty of murders in US.

You are using hysterical language to put your points forward such as calling people vermin, you need to cool down and think about it objectively.

Oh dear.....the puerility astounds me....I bet your blonde.

Then you bet wrong, blonde (in your archaic mind) would indicate I didn't understand the arguement, yet that clearly refers to you. So to use your own logic (again), you are the blonde one since it's clear from your responses that you are simply incapable of grasping the wider issues of the debate.

It's no real surpsie that you cannot answer even the most basic questions about the policies you advocate.

So, I'll make it easy for you. "Is alcohol a drug?"

Oh dear.....the puerility astounds me....I bet your blonde.

Never mind the childish insinuations Superlative, how about addressing the serious issues at play here? Try reponding to the pints I raised in post no. 71 re prohibition and the lunacy of the 'remove supply and demand will cease' argument.

a) I never said that I took drugs
b) Yes some people do take drugs as a means of escapism, some as an enhancement to the pleasure of a full and happy life - what's so negative about either position.
c) Your surprise at the number of people on SF who've used drugs is no surprise to me at all. It reinforces the view that you've already presented that you're speaking from an ill-informed and misguided position of moral outrage on a subject you have very little knowledge of.
It is highly likely that several people you know, like and admire are know or have in the past used drugs of various kinds.
Maybe you ought to speak to some of them?
All that you are doing here is reinforcing my argument as to the vast scale of the problem, which only serves to harden my views. It is this blind acceptance that worsens the problems....I dont think that you even believe that there is a problem......are you high?

Part of the problem is actually the current legislation and hence the black market drug dealing that takes place.

Do you actually feel capable of answering any of the points raised, or will you just stick to avoiding them and insulting people?

Yes and the dramatic solution is to legalise them.

No one can pick and choose which law to obey but we can pick and choose which ones we think ought to be changed. At present it is illegal to execute people in this country, I take it you would like to pick that law even though there is no evidence to show that execution is a deterrant, still plenty of murders in US.

You are using hysterical language to put your points forward such as calling people vermin, you need to cool down and think about it objectively.
I am as ever very cool. I am not using hysterical language. As for the death penalty not being a deterrent....how many people have you heard of who have been executed for murder have done it again?
Drug dealers are vermin.....there I said it again.....do you like them?

All that you are doing here is reinforcing my argument as to the vast scale of the problem, which only serves to harden my views. It is this blind acceptance that worsens the problems....I dont think that you even believe that there is a problem......are you high?

No, I'm not high (and I'll try and resist the temptation to ask you if you're stupid). I do acknowledge that some people become addicted to drugs, that drugs have a very negative impact on some peoples lives and sometimes lead directly or indirectly to death.
The difference between us is that i have an ability to distinguish between that fact ( a fairly universally regarded truth ) and another which I have seen at first hand - that for many many people drugs are not a destroyer of lives, but an enhancer of them.
Do you accept the premise that drugs per se are not neccesarily evil, but that the way in which they are used or misused can have potentially damaging effects?

All that you are doing here is reinforcing my argument as to the vast scale of the problem, which only serves to harden my views. It is this blind acceptance that worsens the problems....I dont think that you even believe that there is a problem......are you high?Do you actually know anything about the drugs issue other than you have heard it's bad and causes misery to a lot of people but you don't seem to know how or why that is. Have you come into contact with anyone who has been or is on drugs? You need to do a bit of research and approach it with an open mind.

As some one else has said earlier, it is a proven FACT that prohibition does not work. It didn't work with alcohol in America and it isn't working with drugs now.

Part of the problem is actually the current legislation and hence the black market drug dealing that takes place.

Do you actually feel capable of answering any of the points raised, or will you just stick to avoiding them and insulting people?
I have insulted noone. i can answer all points but not all at once...some points I am having to answer several times because people are not reading all the content....I dont intend to keep repeating myself. My intelligence is insulted!

No, I'm not high (and I'll try and resist the temptation to ask you if you're stupid). I do acknowledge that some people become addicted to drugs, that drugs have a very negative impact on some peoples lives and sometimes lead directly or indirectly to death.
The difference between us is that i have an ability to distinguish between that fact ( a fairly universally regarded truth ) and another which I have seen at first hand - that for many many people drugs are not a destroyer of lives, but an enhancer of them.
Do you accept the premise that drugs per se are not neccesarily evil, but that the way in which they are used or misused can have potentially damaging effects?
Yes I accept that some people can use illegal drugs in a sensible way.....but this merely creates a bigger market and in that market people will go shopping and use the drugs irresponsibility. Better to have a situation in these circumstances where there is no market at all. The drugs are illegal for a reason!

Do you actually know anything about the drugs issue other than you have heard it's bad and causes misery to a lot of people but you don't seem to know how or why that is. Have you come into contact with anyone who has been or is on drugs? You need to do a bit of research and approach it with an open mind.

As some one else has said earlier, it is a proven FACT that prohibition does not work. It didn't work with alcohol in America and it isn't working with drugs now.
I do not agree....prohibition will work if we put sufficient funding into it....make it a priority.

Actually didn't he prove that if you are ruthless enough to engage in a campaign of mass genocide that the world will mobilise to stop you and you'll blow your own brains out in a concrete bunker a few years later?
Hitler achieved many of his aims before this. He put Germany back on the map.

Yes I accept that some people can use illegal drugs in a sensible way.....but this merely creates a bigger market and in that market people will go shopping and use the drugs irresponsibility. Better to have a situation in these circumstances where there is no market at all. The drugs are illegal for a reason!

And if you took the trouble you'll see that the reasons why drugs are illegal are often entirely unrelated to the potential harm they cause. Did you know for example that pharmacologically pure heroin, used properly is an extremely safe grug and can be used long term with very few adverse affects?

I do not agree....prohibition will work if we put sufficient funding into it....make it a priority.
You realy seem determined to ignore the truth don't you?
Go and read something about prohibition. A ten minute search on the net will probably do. You do yourself no favours by arguing from a postion of ignorance - it makes you look silly.

All that you are doing here is reinforcing my argument as to the vast scale of the problem, which only serves to harden my views. It is this blind acceptance that worsens the problems....I dont think that you even believe that there is a problem......are you high?

Calm down and be civil, please.

It's quite possible to make a point without sugegsting other people are intoxicated.

If you can't debate the issue civilly, then please don't bother.

I do not agree....prohibition will work if we put sufficient funding into it....make it a priority.It's a FACT that it didn't work in America, you can't just say no it isn't. Why didn't prohibition work with alcohol in America then? How much is "sufficient funds" and what are they going to spend it on? If it were legalised they wouldn't need to put any funds in and there would a huge reduction in crime which would free up funds to be spent on useful things like health and education.

Do you actually know anything about the drugs issue other than you have heard it's bad and causes misery to a lot of people but you don't seem to know how or why that is. Have you come into contact with anyone who has been or is on drugs? You need to do a bit of research and approach it with an open mind.

As some one else has said earlier, it is a proven FACT that prohibition does not work. It didn't work with alcohol in America and it isn't working with drugs now.
I have first hand knowledge of the problem.

I have first hand knowledge of the problem.Go on then.

I have first hand knowledge of the problem.

Perhaps you would care to share that with us, we might be able to offer you some constructive help.

I have insulted noone. i can answer all points but not all at once...some points I am having to answer several times because people are not reading all the content....I dont intend to keep repeating myself. My intelligence is insulted!

You don't think that asking if people are high or blonde are insulting, or that calling any point you can't answer purile isn't a mature way of debating?

Fair enough if you don't, but I don't expect anyone here will put up with it for very long.

Still waiting for an answer on the difference between legal and illegal drugs, apart from the obvious that a politician got involved.

It's a FACT that it didn't work in America, you can't just say no it isn't. Why didn't prohibition work with alcohol in America then? How much is "sufficient funds" and what are they going to spend it on? If it were legalised they wouldn't need to put any funds in and there would a huge reduction in crime which would free up funds to be spent on useful things like health and education.
Sufficient funds is considerably less than the vast amounts of cash that we are presently spending om mopping up the vast problems caused by drugs....Hang the dealers high.......and if nobody is strong enough to loosen the trapdoor.....I am available!

Hitler achieved many of his aims before this. He put Germany back on the map.
Germany was already on the map before Hitler came along, by the time Hitler was through with it Germany was bombed back into the stone age, split in two and subject to foreign domination, so he wasn't really much of a success.

Drug dealers are vermin.....there I said it again.....do you like them?

It depends what drug they're selling!

If it's nice beer then yes ofcourse I do.

If it's not then I am not so fussed.

Go on then.
I knew two people personally who died of heroine abuse. I knew many others whose lives were completely ruined by drugs.....they never became useful citizens......fortunately I had the strength to rise above the situation that I found myself in and move away from the area where drug abuse was the norm.

Sufficient funds is considerably less than the vast amounts of cash that we are presently spending om mopping up the vast problems caused by drugs....Hang the dealers high.......and if nobody is strong enough to loosen the trapdoor.....I am available!
We're all terribly impressed by your desire to kill people :rolleyes: now will you please actually address the points made against your arguments and produce some evidence to back up your many unsupported assertions.

Sufficient funds is considerably less than the vast amounts of cash that we are presently spending om mopping up the vast problems caused by drugs....Hang the dealers high.......and if nobody is strong enough to loosen the trapdoor.....I am available!

And again, the "vast problems caused by drugs" are (in the vast majority) caused by the sale of alcohol.

Ignoring inconvenient questions to support your point of view simply means your point of view is flawed.

I knew two people personally who died of heroine abuse. I knew many others whose lives were completely ruined by drugs.....they never became useful citizens......fortunately I had the strength to rise above the situation that I found myself in and move away from the area where drug abuse was the norm.

Sad that that's the case, Superlative, but I'm afraid it doesn't change the spurious nature of your reasoning. If we had a society where heroin use was legal I believe there's a much higher likelihood your acquaintances would still be alive. There'd be much more funding available for treatment programmes for one thing - and if your friends died consequent to infection, overdose or 'cut' gear a good chance they'd still be here too.

Germany was already on the map before Hitler came along, by the time Hitler was through with it Germany was bombed back into the stone age, split in two and subject to foreign domination, so he wasn't really much of a success.
Germany was on its knees before the war.....the allies helped rebuild it afterwards having realised that the war was caused by the reparations after the First World War....They realised that reparations were a mistake and simply fuelled extremism. Thus a few years after the second world war Germany was in a far better situation than it was before the war....thus in a way they won.

Germany was on its knees before the war.....the allies helped rebuild it afterwards having realised that the war was caused by the reparations after the First World War....They realised that reparations were a mistake and simply fuelled extremism. Thus a few years after the second world war Germany was in a far better situation than it was before the war....thus in a way they won.
I think you're posting this in the wrong thread.........

I cannot answer all the points being raised.....I cant read and type that quickly. So refer to my previous answers.

I think you're posting this in the wrong thread.........
I was asked a question....OK

A Conservative is a person who believes that nothing should ever be done for the first time......just a thought!

I cannot answer all the points being raised.....I cant read and type that quickly. So refer to my previous answers.

Oh dear. Well, I'm off out for an hour or four, I'll look in when I get back. Do you think you could come up some kind of reasoned argument by then? Hope so, but I'm not holding my breath.

Sad that that's the case, Superlative, but I'm afraid it doesn't change the spurious nature of your reasoning. If we had a society where heroin use was legal I believe there's a much higher likelihood your acquaintances would still be alive. There'd be much more funding available for treatment programmes for one thing - and if your friends died consequent to infection, overdose or 'cut' gear a good chance they'd still be here too.
Who said they were my friends?

I knew two people personally who died of heroine abuse. I knew many others whose lives were completely ruined by drugs.....they never became useful citizens......fortunately I had the strength to rise above the situation that I found myself in and move away from the area where drug abuse was the norm.I'm sorry that's happened to them but instead of thinking about it objectively you are just talking retribution and that is a quick fix solution (ironically) that doesn't work. I know people who have been and are involved in drugs, a heroin user I know who is from what I would class a decent background was given free samples in a club and became addicted and then had to pay a fortune for it when he was desperate for more. The money was demanded with menaces, if he couldn't pay he was given more drugs to sell in order to reduce his debt. He is now in prison with his life in tatters. If it had been legalised there would have been no incentive for the dealer to start him on it in the first place and had he decided to buy some from the chemist they could have discouraged him.

I have no experience but apparently heroin is fantastic when you take it at first, maybe someone can confirm that. It's the perfect product for an illegal industry. Imagine if you had a product that you give to someone as a sample and their body wouldn't function properly unless they had more and you didn't pay tax on the profits and circumvented all the laws of society. That is the basis of the drugs trade, legitimise it with all other trades and it won't be attractive to criminals any more.

A Conservative is a person who believes that nothing should ever be done for the first time......just a thought!

And you were the one asking me if I was high......

Oh dear. Well, I'm off out for an hour or four, I'll look in when I get back. Do you think you could come up some kind of reasoned argument by then? Hope so, but I'm not holding my breath.
Maybe you should!

I'm sorry that's happened to them but instead of thinking about it objectively you are just talking retribution and that is a quick fix solution (ironically) that doesn't work. I know people who have been and are involved in drugs, a heroin user I know who is from what I would class a decent background was given free samples in a club and became addicted and then had to pay a fortune for it when he was desperate for more. The money was demanded with menaces, if he couldn't pay he was given more drugs to sell in order to reduce his debt. He is now in prison with his life in tatters. If it had been legalised there would have been no incentive for the dealer to start him on it in the first place and had he decided to buy some from the chemist they could have discouraged him.

I have no experience but apparently heroin is fantastic when you take it at first, maybe someone can confirm that. It's the perfect product for an illegal industry. Imagine if you had a product that you give to someone as a sample and their body wouldn't function properly unless they had more and you didn't pay tax on the profits and circumvented all the laws of society. That is the basis of the drugs trade, legitimise it with all other trades and it won't be attractive to criminals any more.
Or cut the supply!

Or cut the supply!You ain't paying attention, that's back to the prohibition argument again. I'm getting a bit dizzy going round and round like this I need to step off the roundabout too.

My whole arguament is that we should realise the seriousness of the situation very quickly, legislate and then throw the massive funds that we have available right now at pursuing dealers. Fast track them through court....then execute.


I see that we execute regardless fo the verdict... nice.

The vast majority of problems with drugs can be derived directly from their criminality. This provides the cash and incentive to commit more crime aswell as the incentive to provide the stepping stones to harder, more addictive drugs. It's a vicious circle. While illegal drugs exist, we will never be free of any of the major problems accociated with their taking because their illegality and the vast profits because they're illegal is what drives their sale. Not to mention that people like taking drugs, the massive number of pubs and off licenses are testament to this FACT!

So, the "serious problems" we now face are as a direct result of the fact that most drugs are illegal. Many nations, including the UK, have tried (to one extent or another) the way you're suggesting for at least the last couple of generations, it's been a spectacular and costly failure.

I for one would like to see some logic and common sense, while two of the most destructive drugs are feely and legally available, our current laws are a nonsense. No wonder people decide to ignore them.

It's time for a change (and some truth) on the subject. No one believes the tired old propoganda you talk anymore, and rightly so.

I see that we execute regardless fo the verdict... nice.

The vast majority of problems with drugs can be derived directly from their criminality. This provides the cash and incentive to commit more crime aswell as the incentive to provide the stepping stones to harder, more addictive drugs. It's a vicious circle. While illegal drugs exist, we will never be free of any of the major problems accociated with their taking because their illegality and the vast profits because they're illegal is what drives their sale. Not to mention that people like taking drugs, the massive number of pubs and off licenses are testament to this FACT!

So, the "serious problems" we now face are as a direct result of the fact that most drugs are illegal. Many nations, including the UK, have tried (to one extent or another) the way you're suggesting for at least the last couple of generations, it's been a spectacular and costly failure.

I for one would like to see some logic and common sense, while two of the most destructive drugs are feely and legally available, our current laws are a nonsense. No wonder people decide to ignore them.

It's time for a change (and some truth) on the subject. No one believes the tired old propoganda you talk anymore, and rightly so.
Your entitled to your ill conceived opinion....of course. Give the dealers a fair trial .....then hang them.....the final solution.

You ain't paying attention, that's back to the prohibition argument again. I'm getting a bit dizzy going round and round like this I need to step off the roundabout too.
That is my argument....it will work.

That is my argument....it will work.I have alr................. oh never mind.

That is my argument....it will work.

Why do you insist on saying it will work, when it's already been tried in many countries, and didn't work, and still doesn't work?

Why do you insist on saying it will work, when it's already been tried in many countries, and didn't work, and still doesn't work?
It will work if it is made the number one priority and the funding is available. Its OK saying legalise it so that we control it. But what if murders became out of control.....do we legalise that next.

Crack isn't the same as coke though is it.

its made from the same stuff just other ingredients added, baking soder, (hence the cracking sound it makes and its name crack)

That is my argument....it will work.

No it won't.

It will work if it is made the number one priority and the funding is available.


Why do you insist on saying that? It's BEEN done, and it DOESN'T work. There's almost a century of proof that it doesn't work. Go read about some of it.

I'm sorry that's happened to them but instead of thinking about it objectively you are just talking retribution and that is a quick fix solution (ironically) that doesn't work. I know people who have been and are involved in drugs, a heroin user I know who is from what I would class a decent background was given free samples in a club and became addicted and then had to pay a fortune for it when he was desperate for more. The money was demanded with menaces, if he couldn't pay he was given more drugs to sell in order to reduce his debt. He is now in prison with his life in tatters. If it had been legalised there would have been no incentive for the dealer to start him on it in the first place and had he decided to buy some from the chemist they could have discouraged him.

I have no experience but apparently heroin is fantastic when you take it at first, maybe someone can confirm that. It's the perfect product for an illegal industry. Imagine if you had a product that you give to someone as a sample and their body wouldn't function properly unless they had more and you didn't pay tax on the profits and circumvented all the laws of society. That is the basis of the drugs trade, legitimise it with all other trades and it won't be attractive to criminals any more.

Excellent post.

The 'war on drugs' so clearly hasn't worked - and heavy penalties don't seem to have discouraged drug dealing anywhere in the world. The potential profits from drug-dealing are just too enormous for deterrents to work.

As you so rightly say, Darbees, "legitimise it with all other trades and it won't be attractive to criminals any more". The cirminal element is interested in supplying drugs because there's such a huge profit in it - so take away that profit. Make illegal drugs legal, and make them (reasonably) easily available through prescription or for sale at a reasonable cost through chemists or some other designated outlet, and cut the dealers (and criminality) right out of the equation.

That would put an end to drug-related burglaries and muggings and the like; would ensure addicts received 'clean' drugs and didn't put their lives at risk through unintentional overdoses, dirty needles and the like; and use some of the money saved from the 'war on drugs' to provide rehabilitation centres and programmes for addicts who want to be helped to come off the drugs. It would free up space in the prisons too, as an aside - not to mention police time.

Makes sense to me - I just wish our politicians had the cahones to carry such a sensible programme through.

StarSparkle

The NHS pays £12.30 for one hundred doses of heroin. I don't think you can buy it on the street that cheaply. Another of your theories destroyed.




And here goes another one. Being addicted does NOT mean that you need to take crack constantly, one hit after another, throughout your waking hours. Anyone who tried to do so would be dead within the hour, long before they got to trying to steal anything.


Maybe you should actually know something ABOUT the drug problem, before making yourself look utterly ridiculous trying to solve it.

Thanks for the pricing information.
That I 'look utterly ridiculous' is undoubtedly a fair comment but, as far as I can see I haven't tried to 'solve' anything.
I asked a question regarding an assertion which is repeatedly made without much explanation as to why it should be. I did so in reference to the present and past smuggling of the 2 legal drugs tobacco and alcohol, and the relative prices of the sanctioned/unsanctioned versions.

The question was eloquently addressed by posts 29 and 30 and your own price data- which is astonishingly cheap.
(At that price wouldn't it constitute an actual competitor to alcohol as a recreational drug of choice.)

It's not clear from what I wrote but I favour legalisation- but with some misgivings about the sincerity with which the state would implement such a policy.

Also, it's no more likely than the execution suggestions unless there is a mass public campaign for legalisation, imo, as the fall-out of legally drugged up car accidents and similar, however statistically insignificant, makes the subject too 'hot' for politicians to advocate off their own back.

[/B]

Thanks for the pricing information.
That I 'look utterly ridiculous' is undoubtedly a fair comment but, as far as I can see I haven't tried to 'solve' anything.


Sorry, the remainder of the post was aimed at the idiot who keeps promoting the death penalty for dealers, not at you.

OK.....It seems that most peoples solution to our vast and ever growing drug problems is to legalise hard and other drugs. What you seem to overlook is that people involved in the drug supply train are criminals. They only choose drugs as their vehicle to wealth because it is lucrative and an easy option.
If you legalise the drugs that they supply they will not go away. They may be outpriced and not be able to ply their trade anymore....but they will not go away. So what will they do?........they will look for another source of illegal income. What will they choose next....gun running? Bank robbery...its anyones guess. Extermination is the only answer. If a drug dealer is caught and executed.......he will never do it again.
Crime has rocketed in England since we gave up the death penalty!

[/B]


Also, it's no more likely than the execution suggestions unless there is a mass public campaign for legalisation, imo, as the fall-out of legally drugged up car accidents and similar, however statistically insignificant, makes the subject too 'hot' for politicians to advocate off their own back.The legalising of drugs wouldn't be to make it into just another commercial product subject to the whims of fashion such as fast food or even alcohol.

Alcohol, though it is a drug, is an intrinsic part of society and there is legislation to cover it's sale, the same with tobacco. People are free to use as much as they want and face the consequences but there is no criminal element promoting it's use. The banning of smoking in public places and the banning of advertising is an attempt to reduce tobacco consumption and thereby improve the nations help but it is not a ban on tobacco use and anyone can use it if they wish.

Drugs are not an intrinsic part of society in the same way and so they need legalising so that users can then be discouraged rather than banned from using them altogether because that pushes the trade underground. This is how tobacco use is being reduced.

Drug driving should be made as unacceptable as drink driving and the police should be able to check for that. I don't know how that is measured in the body and how much it affects driving so I'm not sure whether or not to advocate zero tolerance on that at the moment.

I think we should reintroduce the death penalty but only for trolling morons who argue like a broken record and hide behind an impenetrable wall of ignorance.

dealer is caught and executed.......he will never do it again.
Crime has rocketed in England since we gave up the death penalty!

Now you're just plain wrong.

There was no change in the rate of increase of crime when the death penalty was abolished. All the available data points at the death penalty having no deterrant effect whatsoever.

The original question was about the people who take them rather than the people who deal them. The point was that however much dealers are wrong and are breaking the law do they cause the biggest problems or is it the people that take them, because at the end of the day if people didn't buy drugs then dealer wouldn't supply them.

I can't be the only person thats seen the destruction caused by addicts and is fed up with the excuses given about why they do it and why they think its ok to destroy everyone else around them at the same time.

If you legalise the drugs that they supply they will not go away. They may be outpriced and not be able to ply their trade anymore....but they will not go away. So what will they do?........they will look for another source of illegal income. What will they choose next....gun running? Bank robbery...its anyones guess. Extermination is the only answer. If a drug dealer is caught and executed.......he will never do it again.
Crime has rocketed in England since we gave up the death penalty!To stop drugs using your method you would have to catch and execute all these people at once with no one else taking their place even though there would still be a demand for their products. So long as there is demand there will be someone to supply it, that's what makes the world go round.

I am pleased to say that I AGREE with you, that these criminals may well go into another form of criminal activity maybe people trafficking for example but that does not have as big a destructive effect on the whole community. We need to do something to stop all crimes being an attractive proposition. That is a very tall order which will never be solved as there will always be a criminal element in any free society and a society that isn't free will be governed by criminals.

Please don't reply by saying I'm condoning people trafficking instead btw.

Now you're just plain wrong.

There was no change in the rate of increase of crime when the death penalty was abolished. All the available data points at the death penalty having no deterrant effect whatsoever.
Murder has risen very very very dramatically since the abolition of the death penalty. In my youth when a news story broke about murder in the county let alone our local area there was total disbelief. Shootings and murder in our city is now commonplace.....three shootings in one week a few weeks ago I recall. I am plain right. Bring back hanging!

Sorry, the remainder of the post was aimed at the idiot who keeps promoting the death penalty for dealers, not at you.
No need to get abusive just because your losing the arguament....oh dear ...poor loser. Drug dealers ARE murderers.....believe it.

Murder has risen very very very dramatically since the abolition of the death penalty. In my youth when a news story broke about murder in the county let alone our local area there was total disbelief. Shootings and murder in our city is now commonplace.....three shootings in one week a few weeks ago I recall. I am plain right. Bring back hanging!

You are not right. You clearly have no understanding of how to perform a critical analysis of the data available, and to be honest I doubt you've looked at the data, preferring instead to rely on the media's interpretation of events.

You are not right. You clearly have no understanding of how to perform a critical analysis of the data available, and to be honest I doubt you've looked at the data, preferring instead to rely on the media's interpretation of events.
I am right . Violent crime is spiralling forever upwards. Murder is very violent.

Murder is very violent.Yep, can't disagree with that.

Superlative, I'm back and alas I cannot see any sign of you having assembled any kind of cogent argument at all. Looking through what you've posted while I was away the only halfway sensible point you've managed to introduce is that if we legalise the drugs trade then those currently profiting from it will need to look elsewhere for income. This is probably true and was a consequence of the repeal of prohibition in the US. I believe it's the case that many of those involved in illicit alcohol production became legitimate businessman in the alcohol related industry.
As an argument against legalising all drugs it's a poor one. Even if the Mr Bigs had to look elsewhere for their profit it'll still account for a huge reduction in crime. Who needs to rob old ladies for a fix if you can be prescribed your drug of choice (or addiction) or purchase it at very reasonable prices from Boots?
Your assertion that murder has risen dramatically since we abolished the death penalty is utterly incorrect. Take a look at the states where deathg penalty still stands. Notice anything? Yep, plenty of murder, gun crime and drug dealing. Don't believe me? Take your head out of the sand and actually do it. Look up the figures. It's not difficult, unless you're being wilfully ignorant.

Murder has risen very very very dramatically since the abolition of the death penalty. In my youth when a news story broke about murder in the county let alone our local area there was total disbelief. Shootings and murder in our city is now commonplace.....three shootings in one week a few weeks ago I recall. I am plain right. Bring back hanging!
Oct 30 2006.
www.timesonline.co.uk
Headline.........Street Crime and mugging on the increae.......there you go.

Now prove that it wouldn't have happened if the death penalty hadn't be abolished.

You've a long way to go to understand causality by the look of it.

I think we should reintroduce the death penalty but only for trolling morons who argue like a broken record and hide behind an impenetrable wall of ignorance.
Youll get yourself hung! Just joking pleb hanov.

Now prove that it wouldn't have happened if the death penalty hadn't be abolished.

You've a long way to go to understand causality by the look of it.
Now yor proved wrong you just move the goal posts.....oh dear!

No need to get abusive just because your losing the arguament....oh dear ...poor loser. Drug dealers ARE murderers.....believe it.

I don't dispute that, and that's not the argument. Your argument is that implementing the death penalty for drug dealers would reduce the drug problem. The fact is, in many countries they HAVE implemented the death penalty, and it does NOT reduce the drug problem.


Hard to see why that makes you think I'm losing the argument.

I am right . Violent crime is spiralling forever upwards. Murder is very violent.

You didn't claim that *violent* crime was spiralling upwards; you said that *crime*, in toto, was increasing. Don't change your claims after the event and then pretend you've proved them right.

Streetcrime and mugging incidents in England and Wales are heading towards the 100,000 a year mark after a rise of EIGHT PERCENT last year according to OFFICIAL figures published today.
The only bit I dont believe is the 8%.....more like 15-20%....now that police actively try to stop you recording the incident.....to massage the figures.
I wonder how much was drug related?

Streetcrime and mugging incidents in England and Wales are heading towards the 100,000 a year mark after a rise of EIGHT PERCENT last year according to OFFICIAL figures published today.
The only bit I dont believe is the 8%.....more like 15-20%....now that police actively try to stop you recording the incident.....to massage the figures.
I wonder how much was drug related?

Then why do you not support the legalised supply of cheap drugs, which would reduce the amount of drug-related street crime to as near zero as makes no difference.

You didn't claim that *violent* crime was spiralling upwards; you said that *crime*, in toto, was increasing. Don't change your claims after the event and then pretend you've proved them right.
OK.....so there I made a very slight omission. A small error but were talking violent crime. To err is human, to forgive is divine.....but there arent many saints around!

Youll get yourself hung! Just joking pleb hanov.

You will earn yourself a ban, Superlative. I'm not joking and I've reported your puerile wordplay on Plekhanov's sig. One of the brilliant things about this forum is that people can and do disagree profoundly and remain civil; Heyesey and I, for example have had strong disagreements in the past as have StarSparkle and myself. We're adult enough on the whole not to indulge in such petty name calling and if you want to continue as a member of this Forum and retain any kind of dignity i suggest you do likewise.

Crime has rocketed in England since we gave up the death penalty!

I didn't move the goal posts or prove myself wrong.
You're trying to claim causality here, as if the two things are related.

They aren't, and so you are unable to prove it.

Then why do you not support the legalised supply of cheap drugs, which would reduce the amount of drug-related street crime to as near zero as makes no difference.
I support capital punishment for drug suppliers. It would have the same effect except we wouldnt have loads of drugheads all driving around not knowing what they were doing. Its time to get radicalised.....the final solution is the only answer.

OK.....so there I made a very slight omission. A small error but were talking violent crime. To err is human, to forgive is divine.....but there arent many saints around!


No, indeed. But there's a lot of hypocrites; you slammed into Cyclone for doing what you claimed was exactly this - changing the claim after posting it, to try and make himself look right.

And yet you expect us to ignore the fact that you did so.

You will earn yourself a ban, Superlative. I'm not joking and I've reported your puerile wordplay on Plekhanov's sig. One of the brilliant things about this forum is that people can and do disagree profoundly and remain civil; Heyesey and I, for example have had strong disagreements in the past as have StarSparkle and myself. We're adult enough on the whole not to indulge in such petty name calling and if you want to continue as a member of this Forum and retain any kind of dignity i suggest you do likewise.
Hey I have been called all sorts of names on here today.....just because I have a point of view different to yours. Bigotry is not a virtue.

No, indeed. But there's a lot of hypocrites; you slammed into Cyclone for doing what you claimed was exactly this - changing the claim after posting it, to try and make himself look right.

And yet you expect us to ignore the fact that you did so.
So are you saying he changed the goal posts. Hey we were talking about corporal punishment on here....obviously that is relating to violent crime.

Superlative, lets try and look at this another way shall we? Person A enjoys smoking weed. He grows some for his own use. He supplies some to his friend B. Neither are doing any harm to anyone (possibly excepting themselves) - why do feel this behaviour merits hanging?

I support capital punishment for drug suppliers. It would have the same effect .


As has been, tiresomely, already pointed out to you at least ten times in this thread:


It DOESN'T have the same effect. I can prove this by pointing you to any number of countries where the death penalty is in place for drug suppliers, and the drug problem is no less - and in most cases, is more - than the problem we have.


Simply repeating yourself over and over again will not alter the facts, and the facts prove you wrong.

So are you saying he changed the goal posts.


No, YOU are saying he changed the goal posts; just as YOU are saying that it's something that should be forgiven. So why did you attack him on it?

You will earn yourself a ban, Superlative. I'm not joking and I've reported your puerile wordplay on Plekhanov's sig. One of the brilliant things about this forum is that people can and do disagree profoundly and remain civil; Heyesey and I, for example have had strong disagreements in the past as have StarSparkle and myself. We're adult enough on the whole not to indulge in such petty name calling and if you want to continue as a member of this Forum and retain any kind of dignity i suggest you do likewise.
Ok I just reported an earlier insult that he made to me......guess you must have overlooked that one.

It doesn't matter, the goal posts are still where they started and superlatives assertions are still incorrect.

No, YOU are saying he changed the goal posts; just as YOU are saying that it's something that should be forgiven. So why did you attack him on it?
The word attack is totally incorrect.....I merely pointed out that having lost one argument......where i proved him wrong.....he swiftly jumped to an entirely different argument!

It doesn't matter, the goal posts are still where they started and superlatives assertions are still incorrect.
No.....theyre correct!

As has been, tiresomely, already pointed out to you at least ten times in this thread:


It DOESN'T have the same effect. I can prove this by pointing you to any number of countries where the death penalty is in place for drug suppliers, and the drug problem is no less - and in most cases, is more - than the problem we have.


Simply repeating yourself over and over again will not alter the facts, and the facts prove you wrong.
Yes it would. It is the vigour of the pursuit that makes the difference. We dont live in other countries.

The word attack is totally incorrect.....I merely pointed out that having lost one argument......where i proved him wrong.....he swiftly jumped to an entirely different argument!
If you continue to argue the toss about who said what, when, the thread'll get closed anyway. How about providing some evidence to support your assertion that prohibition has a proven track record in the war on drugs?
Or are you simply unable to do so because their isn't any?

Mod. Note

From drugs to the death penalty via personal abuse...

Can we PLEASE drag this back on track, please, and ALL lay off the name calling?

Thanks.

[mod note]Thread closed pending a post whinge-a-thon cleaning