I came across this in the star.

Council 'delusional' on city's traffic problems
LIB Dems in Sheffield have condemned council chiefs as "delusional" after they suggested traffic here wasn't as bad as elsewhere.
The criticism came as the council prepares to endorse its new Plan for Transport in Sheffield, which sets out how council bosses aim to improve transport over the next five years.
A new leaflet explaining its policies says "compared to other cities of similar size congestion in Sheffield isn't so bad."
The main plan itself adds: "Contrary to popular belief, the actual level of congestion has remained pretty constant" from 1993 to 2004.
But Lib Dems today leapt on the statements saying they show the controlling Labour group is delusional with regard to Sheffield's congestion .
The opposition party says that, in hotspots such as Woodseats and Ecclesall Road, congestion has reached "appalling proportions" and is getting worse. The document includes the council's policies on many transport-related issues such as improving road safety, supporting economic regeneration and tackling congestion.
Coun David Baker, deputy leader of the Liberal Democrat Group, said: "These nonsensical statements within the council's transport plan show Labour bosses are way out of touch with public opinion.
"They are delusional if they believe congestion in Sheffield has remained constant since 1993 and 'isn't so bad'.
"Thousands of commuters in Sheffield will no doubt be baffled by the council's belief. In places such as Woodseats, Hillsborough, Ecclesall Road and Penistone Road congestion is at a crisis level and getting worse.
"The public have been seriously concerned that the council is not taking the matter seriously enough, and these statements seem to confirm their suspicions. Ichallenge Labour leaders to pay a visit to these congestion hotspots."
But Coun Terry Fox, Labour's cabinet member for transport and the environment, hit back saying: "I most certainly am not delusional. The people of Sheffield keep me in touch through the traffic alerts and Traffic Watch and through my postbag. We believe we are working in partnership with the people of Sheffield.
"If we are delusional they will soon put me right when we go out in consultation about our Plan For Transport.
"If everyone chooses to travel to work by car then the network will be full. But overall we believe we can back up our statements that it is not as bad as perceived. But we will take on people's comments.
"Lib Dems can make their conclusions, but we make ours in line with what the people of Sheffield tell us."
21 October 2006



So lets have a poll

I wouldn't say that there has been a huge change in traffic congestion in my route in to town since 1993 (Commonside / Barber Road / Crookes Valley etc) - I also go via School Road / Crookes quite a bit (after dropping my youngest at school) and the queues for Broomhill lights are generally no longer than they were in the mid 70's when my dad used to drop me there.

I think the routes suffering most are those that take a large amount of traffic from out of town commuters eg Penistone Road & Chesterfield Road - perhaps we should start charging them at the Sheffield boundary so they can contribute towards the upkeep of our roads.

In 1993 I used to work on Garden Street and would leave Woodhouse at 7.20 to go down the parkway. I reckon I hit Park Square roundabout about 7.35, encountering no queues at all. Is it still the same today?

"If we are delusional they will soon put me right when we go out in consultation about our Plan For Transport.

Why? When we do they don't listen. Woodseats, for instance. They just say "we know best."


"If everyone chooses to travel to work by car then the network will be full. But overall we believe we can back up our statements that it is not as bad as perceived. But we will take on people's comments.
"Lib Dems can make their conclusions, but we make ours in line with what the people of Sheffield tell us."
21 October 2006

This is rubbish. What people 'perceive' is what they experience, and " we believe we can back up our statments "....well, can you or can't you? This is not really what should be coming from the mouths of the people that are planning our transport policy. They are guessing!

And, yes of course it is much worse than 1993. There are more cars on the road!

Give me a tram to Woodseats, I will use it, as I did when living in Hillsborough.

But sitting on a bus trapped in a traffic jam is not my idea of a good journey.

Traffic congestion will only continue to get worse if Public transport carry’s on becoming less frequent & more expensive.

Also which Drug Crazy Nut designed Sheffield’s City Centre road system?
Can anybody remotely make sense of it?

Also which Drug Crazy Nut designed Sheffield’s City Centre road system?
Can anybody remotely make sense of it?

Easy. It's designed to deter motorists from entering the City Centre. You're supposed to park outside and use a bus.

Of course, what people actually do, is say sod:rolleyes: Sheffield, we'll go to Meadowhall instead.

Terry Fox should have been trying to get to Sheffield Rail Station about 6 pm tonight ... I'm not sure if that's still going to be the way to get there when it's all finished. If so, it's a nightmare!!

People were leaping out of cars in the pouring rain quarter of a mile from the actual station, panicking that they'd miss their trains I suppose. It was absolute chaos ... and the way back out is so poorly indicated that it's amazing anyone ever gets out alive :huh:

Also which Drug Crazy Nut designed Sheffield’s City Centre road system?
Can anybody remotely make sense of it?

It's as simple / complicated as every major city in the country. The only place of any size without substantial one way systems etc is Milton Keynes which was built from scratch in the 60's / 70's.

I moved to Sheffield in the 70's and used to drive to Halifax on a regular basis to visit relatives. I started work in R'ham in 1988 and finished working there in 2004. I then worked at Shepcote Lane and finished there earlier this year. I now work in Halifax and of the 3 three journeys the only one that has increased in journey time is the one to Halifax and that's because of the speed restrictions through the several villages on the way.

The congestion is bound to be worse, for a start there's a lot more cars on the road now than there was 13 years ago in '93..

In 1993, we had the tram being put in all over the place.....whats the excuse now?

Easy. It's designed to deter motorists from entering the City Centre. You're supposed to park outside and use a bus.

Of course, what people actually do, is say sod:rolleyes: Sheffield, we'll go to Meadowhall instead.

I personally don't really need to enter any of the inner City Centre area, but because of the stupid one-way systems I have to cut through town just to get from A-B. As for shopping, I don’t blame people for using Meadowhell to shop.

In 1993, we had the tram being put in all over the place.....whats the excuse now?

The Tram still probably doesn't help the traffic situation, especially given all the alterations to traffic routes made during the installation of the Tram, many of which are still in place to date.

I personally don't really need to enter any of the inner City Centre area, but because of the stupid one-way systems I have to cut through town just to get from A-B. As for shopping, I don’t blame people for using Meadowhell to shop.

I can get from where I live to almost anywhere in the city without going through the centre (which is where the majority, or certainly biggest concentration of the one way systems are).

Try passing through Chapeltown from Burncross Road, Station Road or Lounside in a morning from around 7.45 to 8.45. and then try getting home from Ecclesfield Road, Cowley Hill etc.etc, from around 4ish everyday, it's hell. I sometimes visit my daugther at Thorpe Hesley in the afternoon and end up staing until 6-45, otherwise I'm sat in traffic as far back as Cowley Manor. But then again who is ro blame for most of the snarl ups, the council keep allowing more housing, even though they closed schools in the area a few years ago, and there is only one bus to Burncross now and anyone wanting to get from High Green down Halifax Road, Hillsborough, can't do so any more, no wonder people still use their cars.

I found the following extract from a story that appeared in The Star in May 2001 when Cllr Moore was Leader of the Council under the Lib Dem administration:

'And while acknowledging Sheffield does suffer from congestion and an imperfect highway network, he rejects claims its problems are anything out of the ordinary.
“There’s a lot of mythology about traffic congestion. It isn’t true to say that it’s any worse here than it is in other cities,” says Coun Moore.
“When you compare Sheffield with other cities, most of them have a lot more motorway within their urban boundary, so that distorts the picture. All cities are congested.”
“We have to work in conjunction with the Government on the Centre of Excellence and integrated transport. We also have to consider the environment and look at traffic calming. We have to find a way to square the circle.”'

Interesting that when they were in control, the congestion was no worse than other Cities.

In 1993 I used to work on Garden Street and would leave Woodhouse at 7.20 to go down the parkway. I reckon I hit Park Square roundabout about 7.35, encountering no queues at all. Is it still the same today?

:hihi:


Why? When we do they don't listen. Woodseats, for instance. They just say "we know best."

And waste £2,000,000 in the process:(.


This is rubbish. What people 'perceive' is what they experience, and " we believe we can back up our statments "....well, can you or can't you? This is not really what should be coming from the mouths of the people that are planning our transport policy. They are guessing!

Vote for some other party:thumbsup:.

I usually spoil my ballot paper. I won't be doing so next election though:thumbsup:

Interesting that when they were in control, the congestion was no worse than other Cities.

<removed>!

Is Sheffield no longer a Labour council?


No it is a Labour Council and also anti car you should see the mess they have made of Chesterfield road in Woodseats

I found the following extract from a story that appeared in The Star in May 2001 when Cllr Moore was Leader of the Council under the Lib Dem administration:
Ah, Cllr. Lodge I presume. There's quite a posse of you on here now! :D

Could you please report the result of the poll in this thread back to Cllr. Fox? I'm sure it will make interesting reading for him...

[QUOTE=Umeeksk]Ah, Cllr. Lodge I presume. There's quite a posse of you on here now! :D

Shucks! Someone spotted my cunning alias that I've been using since March 2005.

Ah, Cllr. Lodge I presume. There's quite a posse of you on here now! :D

Could you please report the result of the poll in this thread back to Cllr. Fox? I'm sure it will make interesting reading for him...

Regular readers of SF are aware that bjlodge is a councillor - he's never made any secret of it Umeeksk. Likewise, jgharston and myself are also SF members, who happen to be councillors. I'm sure there are a similar number of bricklayers, nurses, chefs, etc., who are also members of SF. I don't understand what's your beef with councillors being SF members? Care to explain?

Maybe, Umeeksk, as you are a paid up member of the Lib-Dem Party, you could explain the contradictions in what Lib-Dem Cllr David Baker had to say about traffic congestion in 2001 and then in 2006? Doesn't it strike you as odd Umeeksk? At least draw this thread to his attention..... I'm sure he will find it interesting reading his own contradictory statements.

Hello Redrobbo - how hostile of you :D

I don't have a problem with councillors being SF members - can you point me to where I said I did? I think it's a great thing and long may it continue.

It was Cllr. Peter Moore who made the statement in 2001 - and that was that Sheffield's congestion problem was no worse than other cities (which was probably true at the time). He did however acknowledge that there was a problem, and suggested that the Lib Dems were working on solutions to it.

What Cllr. Terry Fox is trying to say is that congestion hasn't got any worse in Sheffield since 1993 - which is quite obviously nonsense. It smacks of trying to sweep the problem under the carpet! But what makes his whole statement truly laughable is that he admits that people think traffic congestion is a problem in Sheffield - but shouldn't he and the Labour council be concerned about what the people of Sheffield think, rather than trying to tell them what to think?

I thank Cllr. Lodge for his contribution, but I think it's just served to highlight the difference between the Lib Dems and Labour in Sheffield.

Transport is a big deal for the people of Sheffield, and rather than see the situation improve we've seen roads CLOSED, bus fares SKYROCKET, bus services CUT and our tram extension CANCELLED - and all on the watch of a Labour council and a Labour government. How can you possibly justify that?

Maybe, Umeeksk, as you are a paid up member of the Lib-Dem Party, you could explain the contradictions in what Lib-Dem Cllr David Baker had to say about traffic congestion in 2001 and then in 2006? Doesn't it strike you as odd Umeeksk? At least draw this thread to his attention..... I'm sure he will find it interesting reading his own contradictory statements.

Sorry Robbo but you have your facts wrong, it was councillor Moore's statement in 2001. Go back and read the quote if your still mixed up!

For me the point is that congestion is definetly worse than in 1993. Why can't the council see this? If any Labour councillors on here can explain why they believe this feel free! I am completely puzzeled why the guy in charge of transport would say this.

I suggest that those in charge at the Town Hall start it listen to the concerns of local people. If they can't even admit that congestion in Sheffield is getting worse then what chance have we got in trying to improve the situation.

I found the following extract from a story that appeared in The Star in May 2001 when Cllr Moore was Leader of the Council under the Lib Dem administration:

'And while acknowledging Sheffield does suffer from congestion and an imperfect highway network, he rejects claims its problems are anything out of the ordinary.
“There’s a lot of mythology about traffic congestion. It isn’t true to say that it’s any worse here than it is in other cities,” says Coun Moore.
“When you compare Sheffield with other cities, most of them have a lot more motorway within their urban boundary, so that distorts the picture. All cities are congested.”
“We have to work in conjunction with the Government on the Centre of Excellence and integrated transport. We also have to consider the environment and look at traffic calming. We have to find a way to square the circle.”'

Interesting that when they were in control, the congestion was no worse than other Cities.

That was half a decade ago!! Things change.

Look at the stats and i think you will find that bus patronage has plummeted and car ownership has rocketed since 2001 in Sheffield. Also we have had dozens of new road 'improvements' (see Woodseats) which have created more bottlenecks throughout the city.

I guess this poll shows a strong yes so far

Perhaps we are all wrong but Cllr Terry Fox is right :hihi:

are you kidding? Since I started driving in 94 its got much worse. only time its now a pleasure is at night early morning!

ban 4x4's. school busses for school run (restricting kids from catchment area's going to the correct schools). all under 20's to drive Smart Cars as their primary vehicle. VOTE Al FOR PRIME MINISTER! :D

are you kidding? Since I started driving in 94 its got much worse. only time its now a pleasure is at night early morning!

ban 4x4's. school busses for school run (restricting kids from catchment area's going to the correct schools). all under 20's to drive Smart Cars as their primary vehicle. VOTE Al FOR PRIME MINISTER! :D
I've got a Smart - life would be so much easier if everyone drove them - you can get two to a parking bay for a start... ;)

Also you can get an LPG version (and soon, electric) - Smarts are definitely the future. :D

It'll be worse now..I have to take my car to work instead of my bike,as some scum stole it form my drive.!!

So for the time being 1 extra car will be on the road.!!

jt

""""The main plan itself adds: "Contrary to popular belief, the actual level of congestion has remained pretty constant" from 1993 to 2004."""""

If you read between the spin what they dont tell you is that the traffic was measured at 3am in the morning.

Its the usual council ****** spin because they have no ideas and no balls.

If you read between the spin what they dont tell you is that the traffic was measured at 3am in the morning.



Can you post a link to where you got this please.

I think many people have forgotten how bad it was. The traffic seems to flow slowly but steadily now, unless there's an accident, when it gridlocks, like last winter's 2-hour freeze and choke.
I worked at the Town Hall in the early '90s and it used to be like that everyday (not to mention never being able to open our office windows onto the street because of the fumes before they diverted most of the traffic). I remember regularly being able to read the whole Star (inc. ads) plus a couple of chapters of a novel on the bus in the jams between the centre and Brook Hill. Once I caught a taxi outside the City Hall about 5pm - must have been early in 1990 because I was pregnant - only to get out in disgust half an hour and just 100 yards later! Had to walk all the way home home past the traffic jams, feeling nauseous.

I found the following extract from a story that appeared in The Star in May 2001 when Cllr Moore was Leader of the Council under the Lib Dem administration:

'And while acknowledging Sheffield does suffer from congestion and an imperfect highway network, he rejects claims its problems are anything out of the ordinary.
“There’s a lot of mythology about traffic congestion. It isn’t true to say that it’s any worse here than it is in other cities,” says Coun Moore.
“When you compare Sheffield with other cities, most of them have a lot more motorway within their urban boundary, so that distorts the picture. All cities are congested.”
“We have to work in conjunction with the Government on the Centre of Excellence and integrated transport. We also have to consider the environment and look at traffic calming. We have to find a way to square the circle.”'

Interesting that when they were in control, the congestion was no worse than other Cities.

You should send this to Private Eye. It's a great example of councillor hypocrisy.

You should send this to Private Eye. It's a great example of councillor hypocrisy.
No it's not - and there are many posts on this thread pointing out why!

Saying (in 2001) that Sheffield's congestion problem is similar to other cities - and then saying (FIVE years later) that Sheffield's congestion problem has got worse - is perfectly consistent, and what's more perfectly true!

Both in and out of power, Lib Dems have consistently said that there is a congestion problem in Sheffield, and that it needs solving. Labour are barely acknowledging that it exists.

Private Eye wouldn't give you the time of day I'm afraid!

It's as simple / complicated as every major city in the country. The only place of any size without substantial one way systems etc is Milton Keynes which was built from scratch in the 60's / 70's.

It's the most inefficient and complicated system i've ever driven around.
And i'm native to sheffield.

Birmingham is head an shoulders above sheffield, but it has the (now hated by planning departments) inner city dual carriageway.

I've no idea why they've gone out of fashion because they bloody well work.

I started driving in 1996, and have lived in the city since 2001. In the last 5 years the traffic situation has deteriated alarmingly. My Dad has driven around the city for a good 30 years and agrees with me that the situation gets steadily worse.

The most annoying thing is though, that the situation gets steadily worse aided and abetted by the city council and the planning department who seem hell bent on making driving around the city tortorous.
Apparently the way to solve the congestion is to make the congestion worse to encourage people to get out of their cars. Absolute Genius.
Just be sure to point all this out next time elections come up. I'll be voting for the most car friendly party, it matters more to me than any other policy they could possibly have.

Traffic congestion will only continue to get worse if Public transport carry’s on becoming less frequent & more expensive.

Also which Drug Crazy Nut designed Sheffield’s City Centre road system?
Can anybody remotely make sense of it?

Spot on King Rat. Public transport is way to expensive, and unreliable in certain places. I still feel sorry for the people that live on Margate drive, that bus route has always been ****e and unreliable.
The one way system has caused more traffic congestion and the road works are not meeting deadlines for completion. West bar looks like a bomb has just dropped with the amount of fences and incomplete roads and dead ends. There is simply no excuse for the bad planning. Another cock up by the infamous Sheffield council

One thing the council can't be blamed for is the bus service, it's run by private companies.

One thing the council can't be blamed for is the bus service, it's run by private companies.

But the labour Gov't can.... since 1997 and still the same mess ,if not worse, than the Tories created. Nice one new labour

One thing the council can't be blamed for is the bus service, it's run by private companies.
That's true - but it is worth pointing out that bus deregulation has been a complete failure (as the Commons Transport Committee said today (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6086668.stm)).

It's quite fashionable to have a go at First or Stagecoach (I do it a lot myself privately ;)) but it's worth remembering that they are private companies with a duty to their shareholders to make a profit - which they do very well as it happens. Far from being dysfunctional, they are actually very good at what they do.

The problem is, the market they operate in is highly dysfunctional. There's a significant problem with marginal or unprofitable bus routes - keeping these routes is highly desirable for society, but the bus operators are under extremely limited obligations to keep and improve them.

More critically, buses have to compete with a rival with an unfair advantage: the private motor car.

Cars don't pay for the carbon emissions they produce, or the road space they take up - both arguably public resources. Instead they pay a flat fee that amounts to a fraction of that true value.

Our road system is essentially a free-for-all where the biggest, most inefficient cars are at the top of the food chain. Buses are reduced to second-class citizens - by and large they are used only by those who can't use or can't afford a car.

Most maddeningly of all, our council seems to be pursuing a policy of controlling demand by restricting supply - downgrading roads, closing "rat runs", restricting junctions - all of which have as much impact on buses as they do on cars. :rolleyes:

So what's the solution? Bus re-regulation (London), congestion charging (London), differential pricing dependent on emissions levels (London) - does anyone see a pattern emerging here? :D

It's just a shame we've had nine years of a Labour government without anything being done about it, when London provides a perfect model for progress on public transportation - and their MPs must use it every day. :rolleyes:

Birmingham is head an shoulders above sheffield, but it has the (now hated by planning departments) inner city dual carriageway.

I've no idea why they've gone out of fashion because they bloody well work.



Perhaps because whilst they might help people living out of town to reach city centres they tend to be hell for the people who have to live close to them and have their communities ripped apart by them.

For instance I'm sure a dual carriageway through Woodseats would speed up traffic for Dronfield commuters - it would also destroy the centre of Woodeats and lead to a great loss of amenity for the locals.

The council is quite correct as usual and the moon is made of blue cheese.

The council is quite correct as usual and the moon is made of blue cheese.

Very helpful.

At least most people who've contributed to this thread have tried to post some rational explanations or solutions..........but you always get one or two who just make facile statements.

So how would Whatif wewin do to help solve transport problems in Sheffield?

I thought we were talking about city centre congestion.

I thought we were talking about city centre congestion.

I think the OP was regarding traffic congestion in Sheffield as a whole rather than just the city centre.

Perhaps because whilst they might help people living out of town to reach city centres they tend to be hell for the people who have to live close to them and have their communities ripped apart by them.

For instance I'm sure a dual carriageway through Woodseats would speed up traffic for Dronfield commuters - it would also destroy the centre of Woodeats and lead to a great loss of amenity for the locals.


Have you been to Woodseats of late? That is what they new road scheme has done for the locals, but also slowed traffic to a snails pace on a main route into and out of the City . By the way the council tell us that things are better there now??

Meadowhead, Woodseats, used to be a dual carriage way. It isn't now. And it's a disaster as far as congestion is concerned.

Vehicles going up the hill can't pass slow moving lorries and vehicles coming down the hill can't turn left into Abbey Lane without adding to the length of traffic.

Oh, but we have a buss lane and 'gate' that some bus drivers just look at, see which light is on green and go through that one.

A new leaflet explaining its policies says "compared to other cities of similar size congestion in Sheffield isn't so bad."
The main plan itself adds: "Contrary to popular belief, the actual level of congestion has remained pretty constant" from 1993 to 2004.

In all fairness I don't think Sheffield's congestion is as bad as other cities - taking a walk around Manchester or Bristol city centre at 5pm should show anyone that.

It also depends entirely on how congestion is measured; whether it is in total minutes delay, % of journeys delayed or whatever - it's that great saying of 98% of statistics are made up on the spot.

I don't think Sheffield is particularly anti-car - I think rather it's more pro-pedestrian in trying to make the city centre a pleasant environment to walk around, and I say good on 'em!

Very helpful.

At least most people who've contributed to this thread have tried to post some rational explanations or solutions..........but you always get one or two who just make facile statements.

So how would Whatif wewin do to help solve transport problems in Sheffield?

Sorry I was not intending to be facile.

A couple of Ideas to help to ease congestion, trouble is I know no one would implement them.
1. Council/s should take responsibility for the city/s transport. Housing rates
should be slightly raised for those on incomes above £47000.
this could help to subsidise tram and bus services.
2. Extend the tram service.
3. Conductors should be on all buses, this could help to keep drivers and
passengers more secure/ safe, and allow safer pulling away from stops
making cyclists safer.
4. The Council using local and national sponsors could run Radio/ TV spots
on buses/trams with prizes for users who can prove that they have used
the bus instead of their car, i.e. prizes could be annual travel tickets.
5. Similar spot prizes for sensible cyclist (not the loonies who race across where oaps are walking) prizes such as to do with cycles or accessories.

Sheffield has very few fly-overs why?
6. Purpose built flyovers even small one like the ones in Liverpool city
centre which won awards for innovation would help alleviate the some
of the traffic flow.
7. Councils should make real use of best practise, get the best ideas that
work in similar circumstances and utilise them; this should include
employing the best contractors who can build with quality within the
specified time scale. It is false economy and a waste of tax payers
money to employ the cheapest or easiest to find.

You do understand that legally the council can do nothing to alter the way the bus service is operated?

You do understand that legally the council can do nothing to alter the way the bus service is operated?

Yes.
That is part of the reasoning behind why I said It will not happen.

Sheffield has very few fly-overs why?
6. Purpose built flyovers even small one like the ones in Liverpool city
centre which won awards for innovation would help alleviate the some
of the traffic flow.
7. Councils should make real use of best practise, get the best ideas that
work in similar circumstances and utilise them; this should include
employing the best contractors who can build with quality within the
specified time scale. It is false economy and a waste of tax payers
money to employ the cheapest or easiest to find.

Fly-overs - you're about 30 years behind in your thinking! They went out of fashion many years ago. Fly overs and underpasses cause severance, they aren't very nice places to be on foot and are rather a blot on the landscape. There were plans for more of them in Sheffield years ago, I remamber seeing some when I worked at the County Council in the 70's / 80's. Basically Sheffield didn't have the levels of traffic to justify such things. These days it's the common wisdom that you can't build your way out of traffic problems, so you need to employ demand management.

Sheffield Council do use best practise, however, much of it is about public transport improvements and making conditions better for sustainable transport modes, so car drivers don't usually like it!

Re contractors, there is always a quality element in any tendering process, it's not just the cheapest quote that wins.

Quote {posted by Planner 1.

Fly-over’s - you're about 30 years behind in your thinking! They went out of fashion many years ago. Fly over’s and underpasses cause severance, they aren't very nice places to be on foot and are rather a blot on the landscape.

The type of city centre fly over that is innovative, as I alluded to in my original group of ideas, is ‘innovative’ because it won awards, for the fact that it is quite attractive far from being a 'blot'. There is no place for foot travellers and it does the job it was designed for.
The severance is won over by beauty in design. Motor ways by their nature cause; and need severance to separate pedestrians, mainly, from fast moving vehicles.
Motorways are over 30 years old, but the best designed ones still work.
Over two thousand years ago the Romans built many beautiful and practical buildings, roads, viaducts and spa baths some people have resurrected the original designs in some towns around the world, even in Britain.
A good design is something that planners should not allow to 'go out of fashion'
Best practice should not be about what car drivers like or dislike but what is best for a particular city given the specific needs.
Common wisdom ...you are joking I realise that Sheffield is a hemmed -in City as soon as a location becomes available some one builds on it, the latest 'fashion' being student accommodation. This does not give great scope even to the most innovative of city planners.
This demand management was shown to be useless 30 years ago, probably earlier but no one would admit it.
Demand management is better known as crisis management; if a need comes along get a quick fix. It does not work!
Real vision is what is called for, I realise it is probably too late for Sheffield we cannot build wide avenues now, our fore fathers should have.
Some towns that are similar in some respects and have better traffic management are the models we should study to implement the best ideas.
When I referred to quality in contractors I meant full system quality: i.e. design, workforce reliability, product reliability, with time constraints and insurances against problems and delayed work whatever the reason.
I know the Council does not have full sway with the transport system but my point was that it should.
Tony Blair is trying to get more powers evolved to Councils; more power to Mayors like Ken Livingston has for London. Should this happen Sheffield, and other Cities, could regain responsibility for their own congestion solutions ...what buses, taxis cars can enter the centre or not. Should this happen I really do hope that out Mayor gets the support of innovative competent planners.

Common wisdom - no I'm not joking.

The Council's planners are well up to date with current practise, and do apply it. They work in a very regulated environment with a lot of constraints.

Anyone who thinks we need motorways sything through the city is living in the past. No-one is building big new roads in city centres and that certainly isn't seen as the way forward. The government provides the money and that isn't what they are about.

You do understand that legally the council can do nothing to alter the way the bus service is operated?


Well they invest in new bus lanes and bus coridors etc why not try and be a little tougher with the bus companies when making investments like this.

Also what about 9 years of a Labour Gov't great to see that a Labour Council working with a Labour Gov't seem to be moving so fast on this issue

Well they invest in new bus lanes and bus coridors etc why not try and be a little tougher with the bus companies when making investments like this.

Also what about 9 years of a Labour Gov't great to see that a Labour Council working with a Labour Gov't seem to be moving so fast on this issue

You can't blame the Council, they are pretty much powerless, they can't be any "tougher" with bus operators because they're not allowed to be. The Council, in common with most other Councils / PTE's in the country desparately want to have tighter controls over buses and have been telling the Government about it for a long time.

It's the Government which needs to act and they don't seem to be in any great hurry, although they do now seem to be saying the right things about moving towards a more regulated environment.

Common wisdom - no I'm not joking.

The Council's planners are well up to date with current practise, and do apply it. They work in a very regulated environment with a lot of constraints.

Anyone who thinks we need motorways sything through the city is living in the past. No-one is building big new roads in city centres and that certainly isn't seen as the way forward. The government provides the money and that isn't what they are about.

You are putting your own spin on what I said.
I never suggested running motorways through cities.
You are not reading my post properly.
I suggested innovative fly -overs, Sheffield does have one iconic fly-over that is used to represent Sheffield, it takes the tram over Park roundabout.

Some towns that are similar in some respects and have better traffic management are the models we should study to implement the best ideas.


I'd be interested in some examples - especially from similar sized cities. Most I've been to recently (Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Cardiff) appear to have the same if not worse congestion problems as Sheffield.

Just as an aside - I drove through Hereford yesterday (Sunday afternoon about 4 pm, not the busiest of times I'd think) - it's just a bit bigger than Worksop (only somewhat posher). It took me longer to travel the three miles max from one side of the "city" to the other than it did to travel from Chesterfied back to our house later in the same journey.

You do understand that legally the council can do nothing to alter the way the bus service is operated?


So what has the Gov't done??? When I get leaflets through my door at election time I am told by the Labour candidate " A Labour council working with a Labour Gov't" will solve all.


Why after 9 years do we still have a crappy bus service??

Fly-overs - you're about 30 years behind in your thinking! They went out of fashion many years ago.

The planning of our towns and cities should not be the subject of fashions.


Fly overs and underpasses cause severance, they aren't very nice places to be on foot and are rather a blot on the landscape.

I never had any problems with the "Hole In The Road", or the pedestrian "under-passes" that were in the city centre (before the crappy tram).


so you need to employ demand management.

Bullyboy tactics:(.


it's not just the cheapest quote that wins.

Nor is it the best quote that wins:(

You can't blame the Council, they are pretty much powerless, they can't be any "tougher" with bus operators because they're not allowed to be. The Council, in common with most other Councils / PTE's in the country desparately want to have tighter controls over buses and have been telling the Government about it for a long time.

It's the Government which needs to act and they don't seem to be in any great hurry, although they do now seem to be saying the right things about moving towards a more regulated environment.

As the councils have no control over the bus services, where is the money coming from for the bus lanes? Surely it's not from our council tax?

As the councils have no control over the bus services, where is the money coming from for the bus lanes? Surely it's not from our council tax?

The Council controls the highway, so it can put in bus lanes and other measures to assist buses. The money usually comes from the Government via the Local Transport Plan. Sheffield usually gets around £6m a year for highway / transport schemes.

The Council can't influence the actual bus services, because they are provided by the operators on a commercial basis. The Council threfore has to work in partnership with the operators to exert what influence it can, through schemes like Quality Bus Corridors (S10 and Sheaf Valley) and Quality Partnership Schemes (North Sheffield Better Buses).

The Government has recently indicated that it is looking at allowing PTE's and Councils to franchise bus services like they do successfully in London. This gives them more control over all aspects of a bus service, like frequency, fares, quality of vehicles, driver training etc. In Sheffield it would be South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive which would be responsible for any franchising arrangement. There's nothing conrete on this just yet, but local authorities and PTE's across the country are keen to see it happen.

The Government has recently indicated that it is looking at allowing PTE's and Councils to franchise bus services like they do successfully in London. This gives them more control over all aspects of a bus service, like frequency, fares, quality of vehicles, driver training etc. In Sheffield it would be South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive which would be responsible for any franchising arrangement. There's nothing conrete on this just yet, but local authorities and PTE's across the country are keen to see it happen.
Which is an unaccountable quango over which Sheffield City Council have no control - but that's for another thread I suppose... :D

Err, I hope that you were using irony there.

Sheffield City Council, along with Rotherham, Barnsley and Doncaster Council's effectively run the SYPTE.

Well Isaidthat the poll looks pretty conclusive, most people who have voted on here believe that congestion is worse than in 1993.

Well Isaidthat the poll looks pretty conclusive, most people who have voted on here believe that congestion is worse than in 1993.


it does look like they do still 7 more days to vote I wonder what Cllr Fox will say then??????

In 1993, we had the tram being put in all over the place.....whats the excuse now?



You have got the railway station work and the inner relief road near shalesmoor not to mention the traffic lights that seem to be breeding in the town centre. In 1993 the whole of arundel gate was open for traffic and it certainly moved traffic much quicker. It only takes a bus to brake down in the town centre in the rush hour and who city centre comes to a standstill, thanks to the muppets in the council

Err, I hope that you were using irony there.

Sheffield City Council, along with Rotherham, Barnsley and Doncaster Council's effectively run the SYPTE.
No irony intended Tony - I know how SYPTE is run (accountable to the Passenger Transport Authority, which is made up of elected councillors appointed by the four constituent councils).

The point I was making though is that it's not an organ of any one elected body, and hence Sheffield doesn't have full control of Sheffield's transport.

It means that local parties in Sheffield can't run on a platform of changing the way the SYPTA or SYPTE are run - because even if they win control the other councils can effectively overrule them.

Of course, with Labour in charge of all four councils they are free to stitch it up any which way they like - you might as well have the Department for Transport running the show. :rolleyes:

Do you see the point I'm making?

It only takes a bus to brake down in the town centre in the rush hour and who city centre comes to a standstill, thanks to the muppets in the council

Since when is a bus breaking down the Council's fault??? I think you will find that if a bus broke down in the middle of the rush hour at a major junction on the ring road in any large town or city in the UK the result would be pretty much the same.

The bus isn't the councils' fault. The fact that every other road is restricted leaving only a few roads for all the other vehicles is... And when one of those few roads is blocked there are no alternatives so everything stops.

The bus isn't the councils' fault. The fact that every other road is restricted leaving only a few roads for all the other vehicles is... And when one of those few roads is blocked there are no alternatives so everything stops.


Maybe if we had a council that didn't stop right or left turns everywhere or stoppped stupid one way syestems or even putting down 24 hour bus lanes when we don't have 24 hour buses that might help!!

Maybe if we had a council that didn't stop right or left turns everywhere or stoppped stupid one way syestems or even putting down 24 hour bus lanes when we don't have 24 hour buses that might help!!

You are so right.
And why are thes buses breaking down so regular?
Is it because they are too old, not serviced enough, profit margins won't allow enough time for the qualified mechanics to do their work properly.

The councils we are told don't have the power to do much ! If the council can take over areas for parking offences with heavy handed fines, why can they not sanction bus companies for causing congestion due to running a fleet of busses with too many breakdowns?
In city centre buses should be towed away within 10 mins of a breakdown, not repaired on the spot causing congestion. ( except if it can be quick)
The council could enforce this using the traffic wardens/operators and the radios they already have.

Maybe if we had a council that didn't stop right or left turns everywhere or stoppped stupid one way syestems or even putting down 24 hour bus lanes when we don't have 24 hour buses that might help!!

One way systems and banning turns HELPS capacity. Things would be much worse if that wasn't done. Check out any other large city, they do exactly the same stuff.

You are so right.
And why are thes buses breaking down so regular?
Is it because they are too old, not serviced enough, profit margins won't allow enough time for the qualified mechanics to do their work properly.

The councils we are told don't have the power to do much ! If the council can take over areas for parking offences with heavy handed fines, why can they not sanction bus companies for causing congestion due to running a fleet of busses with too many breakdowns?
In city centre buses should be towed away within 10 mins of a breakdown, not repaired on the spot causing congestion. ( except if it can be quick)
The council could enforce this using the traffic wardens/operators and the radios they already have.

By what powers do you suppose that the Council would sanction the bus companies?? If their buses pass the relevant tests they are allowed on the road, same as your car, nothing the Council can do about that!!!!!

It's all very well saying this stuff about how quickly broken down vehicles should be towed away until you start to think about the practicallities.

Where is the breakdown vehicle coming from? How will it get to the breakdown through the rush hour traffic. What if the nominated breakdown contractor is already out on a call (that's what happened last time a broken down bus gridlocked the city). None of the local bus companies have their own recovery vehicles anymore and there aren't that many of the large specialised ones around that can tow a large bus. The bus operators employ contractors and do have agreed response times, but, what happens if the recovery vehicles are already towing someone else??

One way systems and banning turns HELPS capacity. Things would be much worse if that wasn't done. Check out any other large city, they do exactly the same stuff.


Get Real I can see why you are a planner. Realy you all sit in the town hall and tell us what you want us to beleive. Don't you understand that we experince the fruits of your labours. The no turns cause us to have worse traffic

Get Real I can see why you are a planner. Realy you all sit in the town hall and tell us what you want us to beleive. Don't you understand that we experince the fruits of your labours. The no turns cause us to have worse traffic

Get real yourself. Don't you understand that you are experiencing the fruits of your own unsustainable behaviour? Too many vehicles on the road = more delays. Is that simple enough for you?

Most of the one-way systems and banned turns etc are ways of keeping traffic moving and trying to maximise the capacity of the network. It's fairly simple if you think about it. If vehicles are waiting to turn but can't because of traffic coming the other way, they queue and hold up the ahead traffic movement. On busy, saturated networks, the only way you can sustain all movements at junctions is to have huge wide multi lane junctions with separate lanes for all movements. However, once you include pedestrian crossings, the cycle times on the traffic signals becomes very long and the thing starts to become inefficient. The less traffic movements you have to include, the more efficient the thing runs.

Go to any decent sized town or city and you will see the same traffic management measures employed. It's what has to be done to keep traffic moving. Contrary to popular belief, the people at the Council DO know what they're doing and they try very hard to keep traffic moving.

"Contrary to popular belief, the people at the Council DO know what they're doing and they try very hard to keep traffic moving."

Why do traffic light controlled junctions work better when the traffic lights are off?

"Contrary to popular belief, the people at the Council DO know what they're doing and they try very hard to keep traffic moving."

Why do traffic light controlled junctions work better when the traffic lights are off?

They work OK if people drive appropriately (ie slowly) and take due care. Trouble is, most of the time they don't. The signals manage conflicts. How many times do you see collisions if the signals go off? Very often. I can think of some junctions which are extremely dangerous when the signals are off. Don't forget pedestrians (particularly the elderly, infirm, disabled) how do they get across large junctions without any assistance??

Some experiments have been done on the Continent with taking out all signals, roadmarkings and signing at junctions and the reports say it seems to work. However, I haven't seen anyone rushing to try it out in this country. Maybe the attitude of British drivers is different to our Continental cousins??

Maybe if we had a council that didn't stop right or left turns everywhere or stoppped stupid one way syestems or even putting down 24 hour bus lanes when we don't have 24 hour buses that might help!!

Kindly explain how having bus lanes when buses aren't running (say between midnight and six in the morning) adds to congestion - is there heavy traffic at 3am?

Why do traffic light controlled junctions work better when the traffic lights are off?

I don't think they do - the lights were out at the junction of Glossop Road and Upper Hanover Street this morning - coming down Glossop Road I gave way to a 52 bus turning right towards Brook Hill Roundabout - working on the theory one person in a car should give priority to 20 odd people on a bus - did anybody crossing Glossop Road on the dual carraigeway give way to me?

No.

Did I have to edge out until I more or less forced someone to stop?

Yes.

I don't think they do - the lights were out at the junction of Glossop Road and Upper Hanover Street this morning - coming down Glossop Road I gave way to a 52 bus turning right towards Brook Hill Roundabout - working on the theory one person in a car should give priority to 20 odd people on a bus - did anybody crossing Glossop Road on the dual carraigeway give way to me?

No.

Did I have to edge out until I more or less forced someone to stop?

Yes.

This is one of the junctions I was talking about that are very dangerous when the lights are out.You can almost guarantee collisions here if the lights go off.

it does look like they do still 7 more days to vote I wonder what Cllr Fox will say then??????

I'd guess he might say that he has hard evidence to back up what he's saying. You just have opinions.

This is one of the junctions I was talking about that are very dangerous when the lights are out.You can almost guarantee collisions here if the lights go off.

Judging by the broken headlight / tailight glass on the road I'd agree - similar last week at the junction of Barber Road / Crookesmoor Road.

I'd guess he might say that he has hard evidence to back up what he's saying. You just have opinions.


Well...well....well look at this post this says it all about those in the Town Hall....we know best you the tax payers just have opinions. This has to be the most revealing post in years on the Forum. Of course, we who have just mere opinions don't experince the roads traffic and inconvenience that this all brings.


Thanks Planner 1 you have final exposed the true way senior council officers and the Labour party run this city. WE KNOW BEST... YOU THE TAX PAYERS AND VOTERs KEEP YOUR OPINIONS TO YOURSELF.

By what powers do you suppose that the Council would sanction the bus companies?? If their buses pass the relevant tests they are allowed on the road, same as your car, nothing the Council can do about that!!!!!

It's all very well saying this stuff about how quickly broken down vehicles should be towed away until you start to think about the practicallities.

Where is the breakdown vehicle coming from? How will it get to the breakdown through the rush hour traffic. What if the nominated breakdown contractor is already out on a call (that's what happened last time a broken down bus gridlocked the city). None of the local bus companies have their own recovery vehicles anymore and there aren't that many of the large specialised ones around that can tow a large bus. The bus operators employ contractors and do have agreed response times, but, what happens if the recovery vehicles are already towing someone else??

I realise that city planners have restrictions and limited power, but you seem to be so negative.
Part of my original suggestions was for councils/planning to get more power, like Ken.
With the increased power comes increased responsibilities. Then councils could impose sanctions. Simple matters like fines against companies with poor track records of breakdowns, insisting on breakdown vehicles.
The council could have a couple of their own stratiegically city centre sited breakdown trucks to use within 10 mins and charge at an appropriately high sanctioning rate.

I'd guess he might say that he has hard evidence to back up what he's saying. You just have opinions.

We all have a chance to vote as well, something that councillors and people working for them should keep in mind when telling us about our opinions.

OF COURSE IT HAS INCREASED!
Cars are now more affordable now, with increased wages and the fact that now to most poeple a car is an essentail part of their lives.
In 1993 there was a car for evey house hold now there maybe 3 cars to every household.

example: on my road 1993 no parking problems everyone parked on their drives no 2006 my household has 3 cars the house next door has 4 cars, house further up has 3 cars etc etc

There are certainly more cars than in 1993 - there is certainly more localised traffic (eg school runs) and more cars parked at the kerbside which tends to cause localised congestion - again especially due to school runs.

Regarding congestion during the daily "rush hour" going in to and coming out of town, I don't think there is any material difference on the routes I use (Commonside/ Barber Road/ Crookes Valley etc or Crookes / Glossop Road). I wouldn't think there has been a massive increase in number of people employed in the city centre since 1993 (although fewer people perhaps using public transport?), in fact the bulk of new employment since then would appear to be in the East End.

There would appear to be fewer instances of total gridlock now compared to the early 90's.

I don't think Sheffield has greater problems than any other major urban area in the country.

We do have the best local forum in the country where we can discuss these issues!

Some experiments have been done on the Continent with taking out all signals, roadmarkings and signing at junctions and the reports say it seems to work. However, I haven't seen anyone rushing to try it out in this country. Maybe the attitude of British drivers is different to our Continental cousins??
I refuse to believe that there is anything in the "attitude of drivers" that would stop something that works on the Continent from working here. What a barmy sentiment - it's just like the scaremongers who were saying that liberalised drinking laws couldn't work in the UK because British drinkers were somehow "different". :rolleyes:

Give people the power and responsibility to make decisions - they behave like people.

Try to corral people into doing what you want - they behave like cattle.

Your choice.

I realise that city planners have restrictions and limited power, but you seem to be so negative.
Part of my original suggestions was for councils/planning to get more power, like Ken.
With the increased power comes increased responsibilities. Then councils could impose sanctions. Simple matters like fines against companies with poor track records of breakdowns, insisting on breakdown vehicles.
The council could have a couple of their own stratiegically city centre sited breakdown trucks to use within 10 mins and charge at an appropriately high sanctioning rate.

No not negative, realistic.

Just where do you think the Council are going to get these "powers" from? A "simple" matter of fining companies with poor breakdown records??? Who is going to give the Council these powers?

Have you any idea how much it costs to purchase and operate the type of recovery vehicle needed to move large vehicles like buses and trucks?? Do you seriously think that the Council is going to spend that amount of money just to have them sitting around on the off chance that something is going to break down?

There's also the issue that the broken down vehicle's owners may have their own arrangements for recovery. Just how is the Council going to compell them to have the Council vehicle to move them (and charge them for it)?

The Council have already thought through this kind of thing and are doing everything they reasonably can. The reason that the measures you talk about aren't in place is because they aren't simple at all.

Well...well....well look at this post this says it all about those in the Town Hall....we know best you the tax payers just have opinions. This has to be the most revealing post in years on the Forum. Of course, we who have just mere opinions don't experince the roads traffic and inconvenience that this all brings.


Thanks Planner 1 you have final exposed the true way senior council officers and the Labour party run this city. WE KNOW BEST... YOU THE TAX PAYERS AND VOTERs KEEP YOUR OPINIONS TO YOURSELF.

That's right, they run the city on FACTS, not supposition!

We all have a chance to vote as well, something that councillors and people working for them should keep in mind when telling us about our opinions.

Firstly I don't work for the Council anymore, so don't take anything I say as representing the Council's view.

No one is denying you the right to have an opinion. However, the Council (or the Councillors) don't make statements like the one about congestion without having the facts to back up what they are saying.

Give people the power and responsibility to make decisions - they behave like people.




Take away the traffic lights at the junction of Crookes / Broomhill and traffic from Crookes would never get a chance as the junction would be permanently blocked by Fulwood Road / Whitham Road traffic - well they manage it about every third turn of the lights during rush hour so I'm presuming that if you took the lights away they'd play an even worse game of "follow my leader" across the junction.

Traffic congestion has increasd in every town since Maggies lot privatised the buses. Charge motorists for city centre driving, take the transport back into council hands, use the money from charging to make public transport free.
I know that there will be motorists who think that as there are fewer cars on the road then they will take theirs but at £5 a time they may think twice.
Less traffic more buses faster journey.
As you can tell I do not have a degree in traffic mangement, just common sense.

I dont know if traffic has increased, but by blocking, re routing, and narrowing roads it has put more cars and to the same bit of road at the same time. By staggering work start and end times to be more flexible, the rush HOUR now is at least 2 hours.

If Sheffield had a reliable public transport system I would use the busses and leave the car at home gladly, but the busses i have used in the last few months have had wanna be racers with a tendancy to jump on the breaks at the last minute driving them, Yes I know not ALL bus drivers are not the same and apologies in advance to anyone who who feels insulted by that.

Maybe we should do some mystrey shopping on the bus service and send it to the relevant companies, people power might work

That's right, they run the city on FACTS, not supposition!

There are lies, damn lies and Council facts in this city. This council tells us what we should beleive, most of us know otherwise!! Read the tracks on here rather than tell us what its like

Firstly I don't work for the Council anymore, so don't take anything I say as representing the Council's view.

No one is denying you the right to have an opinion. However, the Council (or the Councillors) don't make statements like the one about congestion without having the facts to back up what they are saying.


You may not work for the council anymore but my god you share the same culture as they do.

Also Facts facts and more facts so the Labour party in Sheffield don't use spin !!!!! GET REAL.

There are lies, damn lies and Council facts in this city. This council tells us what we should beleive, most of us know otherwise!! Read the tracks on here rather than tell us what its like

Oh come on.........there are loads of threads on the forum where peoples perceptions and the facts are well at odds with each other.

I have very rarely, if it all, known the council tell us what we should believe (councillors may be a different matter) - and do for instance you dispute the information posted on the council website regarding eg the budget / council tax levels - or are these more council lies?

What would be interesting is if we had some solid facts on the number of instances of "gridlock" over the last 15 years or so.

There are lies, damn lies and Council facts in this city. This council tells us what we should beleive, most of us know otherwise!! Read the tracks on here rather than tell us what its like

The Council cannot rely on supposition and heresay when considering it's policies and plans, it has to have hard facts. That's why they spend a lot of time gathering information, like journey times, traffic speeds and volumes. Hence they can make pronouncements like the one on congestion with a good degree of confidence in what they are saying. They know the FACTS.

All that you and many others like you are relying on is supposition, anecdotes and a less than full grasp of the bigger picture. Your experiences are valid and the Council will be interested in your view, but please, please credit the Council with some intelligence.

The Council cannot rely on supposition and heresay when considering it's policies and plans, it has to have hard facts. That's why they spend a lot of time gathering information, like journey times, traffic speeds and volumes. Hence they can make pronouncements like the one on congestion with a good degree of confidence in what they are saying. They know the FACTS.

All that you and many others like you are relying on is supposition, anecdotes and a less than full grasp of the bigger picture. Your experiences are valid and the Council will be interested in your view, but please, please credit the Council with some intelligence.


What a patronising attitude.

And to think, I got banned a few months ago for not showing you respect:rolleyes:.

The mind boggles. God help Manchester, is all I can say:(.

What a patronising attitude.

And to think, I got banned a few months ago for not showing you respect:rolleyes:.

The mind boggles. God help Manchester, is all I can say:(.

What's patronising about pointing out that the Council get's it's facts right before making statements, but many of the people who are quick to criticise them do not!

Originally Posted by Planner1 {No not negative, realistic.

'Just where do you think the Council are going to get these "powers" from? A "simple" matter of fining companies with poor breakdown records??? Who is going to give the Council these powers'?

Whatif wewin...
I mentioned earlier were the powers come from.

Quote originally by Whatif wewin {I know the Council does not have full sway with the transport system but my point was that it should.
Tony Blair is trying to get more powers evolved to Councils; more power to Mayors like Ken Livingston has for London. Should this happen Sheffield, and other Cities, could regain responsibility for their own congestion solutions ...what buses, taxis cars can enter the centre or not. Should this happen I really do hope that out Mayor gets the support of innovative competent planners.

What's patronising about pointing out that the Council get's it's facts right before making statements, but many of the people who are quick to criticise them do not!


Facts...we hear that so many times from council officers and councillors to many times your facts just don' stack up. Like you try to tell us Woodseats is better after the farce of a road scheme you have put in.

Your attitude on here just examplifies what is wrong in the Town Hall at the moment.

Facts...we hear that so many times from council officers and councillors to many times your facts just don' stack up. Like you try to tell us Woodseats is better after the farce of a road scheme you have put in.

Your attitude on here just examplifies what is wrong in the Town Hall at the moment.

Exactly the point I'm making. It's YOUR facts that don't stack up, but when the true facts are presented to you, you refuse to believe them! You just want to criticise the Council and you don't let a few inconvenient facts get in the way.

Journey times along the Chesterfield Road corridor are shorter than before the scheme went in. That is a FACT. The Council have loads of data to back that statement up. They have number plate recognition cameras which track every single car through that corridor and record journey times. How can you argue against that!!!! Many people THINK it is worse because the queue is now in a different place to where it used to be. It's just in a different place, it isn't worse. There are many other positives on that scheme, there is now more parking available in the centre and parking turnover is markedly better. I'm informed that many of the traders are delighted with the scheme. The pedestrian environment is better, safety is better, there are more crossings. Buses are delighted with the improvements. Where are the negatives?????? Where is it worse?????

Exactly the point I'm making. It's YOUR facts that don't stack up, but when the true facts are presented to you, you refuse to believe them! You just want to criticise the Council and you don't let a few inconvenient facts get in the way.

Journey times along the Chesterfield Road corridor are shorter than before the scheme went in. That is a FACT. The Council have loads of data to back that statement up. They have number plate recognition cameras which track every single car through that corridor and record journey times. How can you argue against that!!!! Many people THINK it is worse because the queue is now in a different place to where it used to be. It's just in a different place, it isn't worse. There are many other positives on that scheme, there is now more parking available in the centre and parking turnover is markedly better. I'm informed that many of the traders are delighted with the scheme. The pedestrian environment is better, safety is better, there are more crossings. Buses are delighted with the improvements. Where are the negatives?????? Where is it worse?????

Gosh you really do live in a different world to the rest of us. When was the last time you drove through Woodseats????

So come on then Mr Facts share them with us lets see how faster things are moving share these facts with us on here.

I used to get through some 8 minutes faster than now....so I assume I just dream I am going through slower and of couse my expereince on a regular basis are not FACTS just some tax payer whinging about his opinions

so I assume I just dream I am going through slower and of couse m expereince on a regular basis are not FACTS just some tax payer whinging about his opinions

Exactly:thumbsup: (if you believe SCC):(.

What's patronising about pointing out that the Council get's it's facts right before making statements, but many of the people who are quick to criticise them do not!

You also said we (ie the voters) have "less than full grasp of the bigger picture".
That's patronising.:mad:.

I disagree - it was worse in 1993. Sheffield doesnt have a traffic problem. It is thosae who live in the affluent areas and those in the city centre that are the ones that get caught in traffic jams.

I disagree - it was worse in 1993. Sheffield doesnt have a traffic problem. It is thosae who live in the affluent areas and those in the city centre that are the ones that get caught in traffic jams.
If you remove the affluent areas and the city centre what do class as "Sheffield" then?

I disagree - it was worse in 1993. Sheffield doesnt have a traffic problem. It is thosae who live in the affluent areas and those in the city centre that are the ones that get caught in traffic jams.

9:30 (Monday, 6 Nov, 2006).

Penitone Road (from Neepsend Lane) right through and up Netherthorpe Road was crawling (5-10 mph).

Never used to be like that (even when PR was a single carriageway).


Traffic has, I'm afraid, got worse since '93 (and will continue to do so as the council seem to be of the opinion that none of us should have a car, so they're continually looking for ways to cause as much inconvenience as possible for car users - in the (vane) hope that people will use the buses):(.

You also said we (ie the voters) have "less than full grasp of the bigger picture".
That's patronising.:mad:.

No, I said that the person I was responding to and others like them often criticise without having a full grasp of the bigger picture. In my experience, people are prone to heaping unjustified criticism on the Council without asking questions first.

I'm a voter too don't forget.

I haven't read the whole of this thread so I'm not sure if this has been pointed out already.

But who chose to compare 2006 with 1993?

1993 was the height of the tram building effort with road closures all over the city, it was chaos on a regular basis.

Surely a fair comparison would be to compare 2006 with 1995, after the tram was completed, or even better with 1992 prior to most of the work starting.

After all, the construction of the tram was meant to reduce congestion wasn't it?

No, I said that the person I was responding to and others like them often criticise without having a full grasp of the bigger picture.

That's not the way your post reads (to me, at least). However, it is still a very patronising comment to make.


In my experience, people are prone to heaping unjustified criticism on the Council without asking questions first.

And in my experience, the council ride roughshod over any protests we make re their decisions.


I'm a voter too don't forget.

We all (mostly) are, though this has no bearing on the subject in hand:confused:

9:30 (Monday, 6 Nov, 2006).

Penitone Road (from Neepsend Lane) right through and up Netherthorpe Road was crawling (5-10 mph).

Never used to be like that (even when PR was a single carriageway).


Traffic has, I'm afraid, got worse since '93 (and will continue to do so as the council seem to be of the opinion that none of us should have a car, so they're continually looking for ways to cause as much inconvenience as possible for car users - in the (vane) hope that people will use the buses):(.

To add to this
from Penistone Rd (at 0750 6th Nov) Burton Rd and Mowbray Street queueing to the junction with corporation street, shalesmoor closed in both directions.
Nursery Street queueing from spitalfields to Ladys Bridge.
My 'normal' journey of 25 mins took 40 mins. Nearly all of that extra 15 mins was spent travelling 1 mile across the city.

Everyone who writes in here slagging off the Council.

Right. What do you do for a living? Do you feel you do the best you can within the boundaries you work within?

If you were doing the best job possible, in a very difficult industry, would you sit back and take all this? No, you'd defend yourself, giving clear reasoning for things. That's exactly what Planner 1 has done in the past.

Yet you lot simply refuse to listen to his answers, simply because you don't like them. The Woodseats scheme. Even if traffic flows HAD increased (and apparently they have not), why can't you understand that there is a balance to all this? Pedestrian crossings have gone in, parking opportunities are better, safety is better. And this has been achieved without disrupting flows to traffic. The Council can't just rip out houses and shops to achieve all this AND improve flows. It just doesn't happen. There's a narrow road with limited space. They have done a good job to achieve what they have.

It's always someone else's fault for traffic being bad. It's NEVER your fault for continually driving to work is it?

Planner1 has admitted in the past that car traffic is at the bottom of the list of priorities set by the council.
Given that the majority of voting adults are car drivers I can see why the decisions stemming from these priorities raise some concerns and ire amongst the electorate.

Planner1 has admitted in the past that car traffic is at the bottom of the list of priorities set by the council.
Given that the majority of voting adults are car drivers I can see why the decisions stemming from these priorities raise some concerns and ire amongst the electorate.
Sorry, my post wasn't aimed at you particularly!

I just think that it's unfair for people on here to constantly slag off some people who are working very hard within a very constrained working environment.

You're right, it isn't hard to see why people get annoyed. But many of these people are not prepared to give up anything, for example taking a bus one day a week - most simply want to be able to do exactly what they want, when they want. And as it's been explained many times, the network simply can't cope. Hence the Council's transport policy.

But remember, it is the Council who make policy decisions, not officers, so i think it's only fair that people treat the officers with more respect, who are carrying out the wishes of the Council.

Rather than doing it's best to help the network cope though (the sensible approach you'd think) the council actively work to reduce the capacity and increase congestion as if in some bizarre council logic this will then reduce congestion by forcing people out of their cars.

A child of 3 could see the flaw in the circular logic employed, but there are no 3 year old councillors unfortunately.

Gosh you really do live in a different world to the rest of us. When was the last time you drove through Woodseats????

So come on then Mr Facts share them with us lets see how faster things are moving share these facts with us on here.

I used to get through some 8 minutes faster than now....so I assume I just dream I am going through slower and of couse my expereince on a regular basis are not FACTS just some tax payer whinging about his opinions

Here are some statistics demonstrating the scale of the improvements in journey times, as provided to the Area Panel meeting on September 13th:

Average Journey Times, 08.00-09.30, Meadowhead to London Rd / Broadfield Road junction:
Nov-98 0:13:34
Nov-00 0:14:51
Nov-02 0:22:21
Nov-04 0:15:08
Nov-05 0:16:05
Mar-06 0:15:22
May-06 0:14:55
Jun-06 0:14:31
Sep-06 0:10:04

Average Journey times 08.00-09.30, Meadowhead to Chesterfield Rd / Scarsdale Rd junction:

Nov-98 0:05:45
Nov-00 0:05:46
Nov-02 0:04:52
Nov-04 0:08:47
Nov-05 0:08:38
Jun-06 0.08:45
Sep-06 0:06:17

The September 06 figures are when the new arrangements were fully working and the Heeley tidal flow system was back in full operation.

But remember, it is the Council who make policy decisions, not officers, so i think it's only fair that people treat the officers with more respect, who are carrying out the wishes of the Council.

Thank you for your support Emigre, it's threads like this that puts most officers off making any effort into discussing issues that concern the members of this forum, because a small minority of "arm chair experts" who probably have a unrewarding job overwhelm the thread with complete rubbish.

The Sheffield Forum does not represent the electorate and to be perfectly honest gets less and less respect from the officers and elected members day by day, purely because a small minority have taken it upon themselves to speak as the unelected voice of Sheffield - If you wish to make a difference, either;

a, Take the effort to write a letter in, which have always been replied too, regardless of the nonsense spouted on here by the minority and very often leads to real results and solutions being implemented on the highways, or
b, Attend public meetings and express your views with respect, which, always gets a resonable, considered and honest reply and very often leads to real results and solutions being implemented on the highways, or
c, Become an elected member and represent the people using your democratic rights which very often leads to real results and solutions being implemented on the highways, or
d, Continue to bleat on about stuff on here, getting higher blood pressure and leading eventually to an early grave !

I for one, find many of the threads of great entertainment and just continue to undertake my role as I've always done, responding to real letters, telephone calls and (now) e-mails, which come from people with concerns that we can mostly resolve.

Best wishes to the vast majority of the members

Haydn

Thank you for your support Emigre, it's threads like this that puts most officers off making any effort into discussing issues that concern the members of this forum, because a small minority of "arm chair experts" who probably have a unrewarding job overwhelm the thread with complete rubbish.

The Sheffield Forum does not represent the electorate and to be perfectly honest gets less and less respect from the officers and elected members day by day, purely because a small minority have taken it upon themselves to speak as the unelected voice of Sheffield - If you wish to make a difference, either;

a, Take the effort to write a letter in, which have always been replied too, regardless of the nonsense spouted on here by the minority and very often leads to real results and solutions being implemented on the highways, or
b, Attend public meetings and express your views with respect, which, always gets a resonable, considered and honest reply and very often leads to real results and solutions being implemented on the highways, or
c, Become an elected member and represent the people using your democratic rights which very often leads to real results and solutions being implemented on the highways, or
d, Continue to bleat on about stuff on here, getting higher blood pressure and leading eventually to an early grave !

I for one, find many of the threads of great entertainment and just continue to undertake my role as I've always done, responding to real letters, telephone calls and (now) e-mails, which come from people with concerns that we can mostly resolve.

Best wishes to the vast majority of the members

Haydn

What a disgusting attitude! And we wonder why transport is in such a mess if these are the sort of people the council employ. :rant:

Not only do you insult people for having a different opinion than the so called experts, but you claim that your views are held by members and other officers at the council which i seriously doubt.

Mod note:

OK, let's just calm down a bit here.

From here on in we expect members to show a bit more respect to each other and that that includes those of you who just seem to want to abuse the Council and its Officers.

If you can't contribute to this thread in a calm and thoughtful manner then please find another thread.

You've opted for option d) then, moaning on the forum about the forum.

Choose people at random on the street, they'll say the same thing about congestion in sheffield, there's nothing atypical about the views expressed on the forum.
You are right that's the forum isn't truly representative. It's probably biased towards sheffielders with higher than average disposable income (hence we all have computers), good levels of education and at least a vague interest in matters that affect the city.

Thank you for your support Emigre, it's threads like this that puts most officers off making any effort into discussing issues that concern the members of this forum, because a small minority of "arm chair experts" who probably have a unrewarding job overwhelm the thread with complete rubbish.

The Sheffield Forum does not represent the electorate and to be perfectly honest gets less and less respect from the officers and elected members day by day, purely because a small minority have taken it upon themselves to speak as the unelected voice of Sheffield - If you wish to make a difference, either;

a, Take the effort to write a letter in, which have always been replied too, regardless of the nonsense spouted on here by the minority and very often leads to real results and solutions being implemented on the highways, or
b, Attend public meetings and express your views with respect, which, always gets a resonable, considered and honest reply and very often leads to real results and solutions being implemented on the highways, or
c, Become an elected member and represent the people using your democratic rights which very often leads to real results and solutions being implemented on the highways, or
d, Continue to bleat on about stuff on here, getting higher blood pressure and leading eventually to an early grave !

I for one, find many of the threads of great entertainment and just continue to undertake my role as I've always done, responding to real letters, telephone calls and (now) e-mails, which come from people with concerns that we can mostly resolve.

Best wishes to the vast majority of the members

Haydn

One thing the council can't be blamed for is the bus service, it's run by private companies.
Hear hear!

And the ridiculous fares/ tolerance of anti-social behaviour on the buses drives people back into cars.

One has to consider that vehicle ownership is greater than in 93 and the one-way system defies all logic :hihi:

What a disgusting attitude! And we wonder why transport is in such a mess if these are the sort of people the council employ. :rant:

Not only do you insult people for having a different opinion than the so called experts, but you claim that your views are held by members and other officers at the council which i seriously doubt.

Thank you for your considered reply, firstly, you claim that transport is in a mess, well to a degree I think you are correct, however, you have to look at why transport is in a mess, consider bus de-regulation in 1986, that has seen passenger numbers drop, due to poorer services and higher fares, thus making people chose the alternative, i.e. the car... I'm sure my former colleague Planner1 could provide some exact figures on this fall...

Next, consider Norman Tebbits "inspired" speach in the 1980's to all the (then) recently unemployed steel, coal, ship building, manufacturing workers - if you can't get a job, then get on your bike and find one, yeah brilliant, so millions of workers did, thus initially putting more "bikes" on the road, got work in other industry miles away, then been able to afford a car, then a second car...

Next, the media fuel hype that the world is a more dangerous place to live, which led to parents insisting on taking their children of all ages to school, then driving them around after school, to friends, shopping and other leisure activities - Hmmm... I'm only 35, but I and the vast majority of other kids walked to school, caught the bus and ran around playing after school, unlike now...

The cost of buying a car has dropped significantly, in 1980, a top of the range Ford Escort would have cost you about £4000 new, today a similar sized and specced Ford Fiesta is available for about £8000, just twice the price, yet salaries have grown by a much greater factor, perhaps 4 or 5 fold ? maybe someone could give me some accurate figures on this one...

So, through our success as a country, we end up with more cars on the road, but wait, theres more, didn't we pay more tax in the 1970's 1980's ????

Yes, transport in general is in a worse state than in 1993, however, most of that is due to the sucess and prosperity the nation has enjoyed for the last 30 years.

Whats the answer I hear you cry ? Well, Sheffield has been at the forefront of the modern day transport revolution, a great mind demanded the trams back in 1975, it took a further 20 years to get funding and legal approval, which considering some highway schemes elsewhere in the country take 30+ years, is quite amazing. Sheffield also insisted on keeping a county wide Passenger Transport Executive, Sheffield has built BILLIONS of pounds worth of infrastructure over the last 20 years, I'll supply a list if required, most of it funded via European, Central Government and Developers, not the Council Tac Payer, this is testiment to the hard working Officers and Elected Members of the Council, some who lay awake at night worrying how to get the best scheme for the money.

The root cause and the solutions rest with the motoring public, they are the people causing the congestion, yet still chose not to car share, not to use the bus, not to make their child walk, not to walk 500yds to the shop, cycle a mile to work, they chose not to work flexible hours (where possible), or indeed, use the tram or train... Yet, the same people who complain about the congestion, also do not want to pay anymore council tax, income tax or other taxes to pay for the solutions they want....

Lastly, it's not in my nature to insult people for having other views, I have the upmost respect for freedom of speech and spend many hours a week listening to other peoples views and explaining why things are as they are... but at the end of the day, the biggest problem with democracy is that you don't always get want you want...

and.... are you really sure that some officers and some elected members don't also share my view ?

Time to go to work now...

Haydn

And at the same time the council uses the logic that increasing congestion will force people out of cars. So rather than attempt to alleviate the problem and improve flow for cars, they instead introduce bus gates and bus lanes, pointless one way systems, and as many restrictions as they can possibly think of on the car. So the declining numbers of bus passengers get a better service, the deregulated industry makes a slightly bigger profit and the majority of the people on the road suffer.

I know that single policy parties rarely win even a single seat in an election, but I suspect that a pro car party could have a huge impact on the next general election if such a party existed.

For the record, I use flexible working hours, I car share and I walk when I'm going somewhere close by. I can't use the tram/train or bus to get to work due to the appaling service and journey times. I'm doing my bit and I'm still p*ss*d off with the increasingly frustrating traffic situation in the city.

And at the same time the council uses the logic that increasing congestion will force people out of cars. So rather than attempt to alleviate the problem and improve flow for cars, they instead introduce bus gates and bus lanes, pointless one way systems, and as many restrictions as they can possibly think of on the car. So the declining numbers of bus passengers get a better service, the deregulated industry makes a slightly bigger profit and the majority of the people on the road suffer.

Spot on. This is the reason why the vast majority of people in Sheffield believe transport planning council officers like Haydn1971 are doing a rubbish job. The council refuse to live in the real world.

Yes, poor buses and increased car ownership has lead to increased congestion (although the councillor for transport believes that congestion has stayed the same since 1993 - of course it has :loopy: ) but the councils interference has made the situation worse, not better.

Look at Woodseats as a prime example. It is undoubtably worse, yet the council still insist they have done a good job because buses can get into town 30 seconds sooner (never mind that it takes 5mins longer by car).

Never forget that council officers are paid for by the people of Sheffield. We deserve a good level of service that caters for our needs. This simply isnt happening at the moment. Forgive me if i don't sing the praises of the "hard working council officers and elected members of the council".

And at the same time the council uses the logic that increasing congestion will force people out of cars. So rather than attempt to alleviate the problem and improve flow for cars, they instead introduce bus gates and bus lanes, pointless one way systems, and as many restrictions as they can possibly think of on the car. So the declining numbers of bus passengers get a better service, the deregulated industry makes a slightly bigger profit and the majority of the people on the road suffer.

I know that single policy parties rarely win even a single seat in an election, but I suspect that a pro car party could have a huge impact on the next general election if such a party existed.

For the record, I use flexible working hours, I car share and I walk when I'm going somewhere close by. I can't use the tram/train or bus to get to work due to the appaling service and journey times. I'm doing my bit and I'm still p*ss*d off with the increasingly frustrating traffic situation in the city.

It is the widely accepted logic in transport circles that trying to build your way out of congestion is self defeating as the more capacity you build into the highway network, the more trips you generate, thus filling the extra capacity very quickly. For that reason, the emphasis nowadays is very much on making the best use of the existing highway network and getting best value out of any capacity improvements you do manage to introduce (examples of this might be putting an extra lane on the motorway but designating it a high occupancy vehicle lane or widening a road to introduce a bus lane. In this way you lock in the benefits for more sustainable modes of transport.)

The Council actually does do a lot to help traffic flow as efficiently as possible. They have an extensive urban traffic control system and there is a a lot of investment in technology for better route management. You'll have noticed new variable message signs going up on the Parkway, this is part of a wider initiative to provide better information to transport users via the South Yorkshire Intelligent Transport System (SYITS). SYITS will give information via a number of methods (variable message signs, real time passenger information displays, sms text, web etc) guidance to car parks, advise on delays and give live, accurate information on expected journey times across all modes. Better information should help people plan journeys better and aviod problems.

Part of the difficulty Councils have is that by and large they are responding to Government requirements, which are often contradictory ie improve congestion, improve conditions for public transport, improve safety, improve accessibility. Often these aren't mutually compatible and finding the right balance is difficult.

Spot on. This is the reason why the vast majority of people in Sheffield believe transport planning council officers like Haydn1971 are doing a rubbish job. The council refuse to live in the real world.

Yes, poor buses and increased car ownership has lead to increased congestion (although the councillor for transport believes that congestion has stayed the same since 1993 - of course it has :loopy: ) but the councils interference has made the situation worse, not better.

Look at Woodseats as a prime example. It is undoubtably worse, yet the council still insist they have done a good job because buses can get into town 30 seconds sooner (never mind that it takes 5mins longer by car).

Never forget that council officers are paid for by the people of Sheffield. We deserve a good level of service that caters for our needs. This simply isnt happening at the moment. Forgive me if i don't sing the praises of the "hard working council officers and elected members of the council".

Haydn1971 isn't a transport planning officer, he works in the traffic management group doing design work.

The Council have to live in the real world which includes responding to Central Government policies and requirements, which have to be satisfied, because THEY provide the funds!

Woodseats is a prime example of how traffic flows can be IMPROVED. See my post on the previous page of this thread for figures on how journey times for ALL traffic has shortened since the scheme went in.

No-one on this thread has asked the vital questions. What measure of congestion is being discussed when making the claim about congestion not increasing? How do you define congestion?

It is the widely accepted logic in transport circles that trying to build your way out of congestion is self defeating as the more capacity you build into the highway network, the more trips you generate .
And by precisely what mechanism does this piece of prime nonsense operate? The need to travel is not predicated upon the available capacity in the transport network in any way that I can see.

It is the widely accepted logic in transport circles that trying to build your way out of congestion is self defeating as the more capacity you build into the highway network, the more trips you generate, thus filling the extra capacity very quickly. For that reason, the emphasis nowadays is very much on making the best use of the existing highway network and getting best value out of any capacity improvements you do manage to introduce (examples of this might be putting an extra lane on the motorway but designating it a high occupancy vehicle lane or widening a road to introduce a bus lane. In this way you lock in the benefits for more sustainable modes of transport.)
Have you ever considered that your basic premise might be wrong....

Part of the difficulty Councils have is that by and large they are responding to Government requirements, which are often contradictory ie improve congestion, improve conditions for public transport, improve safety, improve accessibility. [/B]Often these aren't mutually compatible and finding the right balance is difficult.
...and motivated by political ideology?

It is the widely accepted logic in transport circles that trying to build your way out of congestion is self defeating as the more capacity you build into the highway network, the more trips you generate, thus filling the extra capacity very quickly.

Increased capacity does not "generate" further trips. What happens is, there is a suppressed demand for travel between A and B and so a new road from A to B gets used. To blame the road is missing the point, surely a better question would be, why are people trying to get from A to B?

It's often also argued, for example, if after a road is widened after a few years there are just as many jams, then it was a mistake to widen that road as the situation down the line is "the same". Except it isn't the same; there might be the same level of congestion, but many more people are managing to make their journey.

I'll accept that it's a difficult job you've got to do.
But having councillors making self evidently false statements about levels of congestion is not a good means for communicating with the public.

And by precisely what mechanism does this piece of prime nonsense operate? The need to travel is not predicated upon the available capacity in the transport network in any way that I can see.

It's pretty much accepted logic within the industry / Government / academia worldwide.

The DESIRE to travel depends in some part on the percieved ease by which you can travel. Therefore if there is a big, empty, high capacity road available to where you might want to go, you are more likely to make the trip and do it more often. Allied with the increase in car ownership is the tendancy for cars to be used more. Average mileage covered is tending to increase over time, there are Government figures for this.

I'll accept that it's a difficult job you've got to do.
But having councillors making self evidently false statements about levels of congestion is not a good means for communicating with the public.

I don't believe that Councillors would knowingly make false statements. As I've said, you need to consider what measure of congestion is being used.

Lies, damn lies and statistics. Manipulating the figures (ie using some obscure definition of congestion) to allow you to make a statement that rings false with the electorate is typical labour spin and most people have long since learnt to see through it.

It's pretty much accepted logic within the industry / Government / academia worldwide.

The DESIRE to travel depends in some part on the percieved ease by which you can travel. Therefore if there is a big, empty, high capacity road available to where you might want to go, you are more likely to make the trip and do it more often. Allied with the increase in car ownership is the tendancy for cars to be used more. Average mileage covered is tending to increase over time, there are Government figures for this.
Most congestion that I see is caused by the NEED to get to work, desire largely doesn't enter into it. If I desire to go somewhere then I travel in the early hours of the morning when no other bgr is up. If that is an example of
accepted logic within the industry / Government / academia worldwide. then it's little wonder transport is in such a mess.

There is some aspect of desire involved.
Congestion is always worse during school term, quite significantly worse.
This can only be attributed to the effects of the school run, which is generally a journey of choice, not one of necessity.
Maybe if all schools had 1 mile parking exclusion zones (except for residents) around them then the school run could be eliminated.

Sheffield also insisted on keeping a county wide Passenger Transport Executive
Why is this a good thing? Why should we in Sheffield have a say in how transport is run in Rotherham, Barnsley or Doncaster? For that matter why should they have a say in ours?

I fail to see the supposed benefits of this "bigger is better" approach. Local accountability should come first.

More use of intelligent signals and systems would do a lot to help.

Here are just a few for example:

- There should be no bus lanes that are "At Any Time", they should be timed, even if it has to be 7.30-7.30

- Many currently blocked off turns and roads should be retractable bollards that can be lowered out of hours, and importantly in a chaos-causing gridlock event, allowing traffic to route around the problem.

- More intelligent traffic lights that don't just switch back and forth on a timer.

- Pelican crossings that actually sense when there is someone waiting, as often people cross before the green man shows.

- Pelican crossings that actually sense when there is someone waiting, as often people cross before the green man shows.
Puffin crossings are supposed to do this, but in my experience just don't work properly for either drivers or pedestrians.

There is some aspect of desire involved.
Congestion is always worse during school term, quite significantly worse.
This can only be attributed to the effects of the school run, which is generally a journey of choice, not one of necessity.
Maybe if all schools had 1 mile parking exclusion zones (except for residents) around them then the school run could be eliminated.

IMHO it's the residents who live in a mile radius of the school who still insist on running the kids to school by car that cause the most congestion. Plus, at this end of town the massive increase in parked cars during university term time - perhaps students should be actively encouraged not to bring cars to Sheffield.

In fact many of the rat runs / short cuts that people used to use would no longer be of much use for the sheer volume of parked cars - many roads are only wide enough to take one car if parked up at both sides.

Lies, damn lies and statistics. Manipulating the figures (ie using some obscure definition of congestion) to allow you to make a statement that rings false with the electorate is typical labour spin and most people have long since learnt to see through it.

So what is your definition of congestion?

There is some aspect of desire involved.
Congestion is always worse during school term, quite significantly worse.
This can only be attributed to the effects of the school run, which is generally a journey of choice, not one of necessity.
Maybe if all schools had 1 mile parking exclusion zones (except for residents) around them then the school run could be eliminated.

Quite a few schools have a 10 minute walk zone. They ask parents to walk the last 10 minutes of any journey. Just how many do so is a matter for conjecture.

Why is this a good thing? Why should we in Sheffield have a say in how transport is run in Rotherham, Barnsley or Doncaster? For that matter why should they have a say in ours?

I fail to see the supposed benefits of this "bigger is better" approach. Local accountability should come first.

Government funding for transport projects is awarded on a County-wide basis to South Yorkshire via the South Yorkshire LTP partnership. They then split it to the District Councils on a head of population basis.

South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive is a separate body which oversees public transport in the County. It isn't run by Sheffield, it is independent.

Sheffield doesn't have a say in how things are run in the other districts. However, all districts have to spend the money according to the Local Transport Plan objectives (in order to meet the Central Government targets and indicators)

Spot on. This is the reason why the vast majority of people in Sheffield believe transport planning council officers like Haydn1971 are doing a rubbish job. The council refuse to live in the real world.

The real world dictates that there is only such much money available to provide facilities that people want, as I've said above, if we paid more in, we could have more out. Out of interest, have you done a poll, how do you know that the "vast majority" think this ??? I have my opinions on other jobs, perhaps your opinion on council officers reflects just a small minority, perhaps you could tell the forum what you do for a job, so that I can be rude to you !

Yes, poor buses and increased car ownership has lead to increased congestion (although the councillor for transport believes that congestion has stayed the same since 1993 - of course it has :loopy: ) but the councils interference has made the situation worse, not better.

Again, we could go blue in the face, but I guess you just don't want to hear it, and how the blazes can you call building a entire tram network, dualling, Penistone Road, Brightside Lane, Greenland Road, the new IRR, numerous other schemes and investments since 1993 as "council interference" do you drive around with your eyes closed ???? Spend Billions of pounds on new roads and say nothing, close a minor road in Abbeydale and suddenly we turn into the antichrist !

Look at Woodseats as a prime example. It is undoubtably worse, yet the council still insist they have done a good job because buses can get into town 30 seconds sooner (never mind that it takes 5mins longer by car).

Woodseats wasn't just about journey times, it's also been about improving access to the shops, making it easier to cross the road and generally providing a better high street environment. Your perspective is purely from a car driver point of view, there are more factors to consider.

Never forget that council officers are paid for by the people of Sheffield. We deserve a good level of service that caters for our needs. This simply isnt happening at the moment. Forgive me if i don't sing the praises of the "hard working council officers and elected members of the council".

As a resident of Sheffield, I think I'm getting good value from our council, indeed, and I'm not the only one, didn't Sheffield get a maximum 4 star rating for performance in 2005 ? I think the "hard working council officers and elected members of the council" need a pat on the back for that !

Forumer, I look forward to your enlightened comments !

IMHO it's the residents who live in a mile radius of the school who still insist on running the kids to school by car that cause the most congestion. Plus, at this end of town the massive increase in parked cars during university term time - perhaps students should be actively encouraged not to bring cars to Sheffield.

The school travel plans actively encourage parents to walk, cycle, use the bus. Whilst it is accepted that some parents have to travel greater distances, or perhaps have several children to drop at different schools in a tight time frame, many parents still insist on driving little jimmy to school, because they believe their child is at risk, yet by going in the car, they are only adding to that risk... As seen on other threads, a series of controlled parking zones are being introduced to encourage people to use other means of transport, be it car share, bus, walk cycle etc... the car might be the only option for some, so whilst solving the parking nightmare for residents, a problem is created for people with no alternative, you can't please all the people all the time sadly....

and how the blazes can you call building a entire tram network, dualling, Penistone Road

The tram was contested by many residents & businesses throughout Sheffield when the scheme was first mooted.

Penistone Road never used to flood.

It does since the widening:(.

a series of controlled parking zones are being introduced to encourage people to use other means of transport

Surely you mean:

"a series of controlled parking zones are being introduced to bully people to use other means of transport"

Government funding for transport projects is awarded on a County-wide basis to South Yorkshire via the South Yorkshire LTP partnership. They then split it to the District Councils on a head of population basis.

South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive is a separate body which oversees public transport in the County. It isn't run by Sheffield, it is independent.

Sheffield doesn't have a say in how things are run in the other districts. However, all districts have to spend the money according to the Local Transport Plan objectives (in order to meet the Central Government targets and indicators)
That's all very nice-sounding - "independent", "local", done in "partnership" - most laudable. Here's my problem, though. Where exactly in this charming little bureaucracy do the people of Sheffield get a say?

What if we disagree with Central Government? What if we want to change the targets?

I for one would quite like some real political accountability for transport at a local level. As far as I see it, the only real political accountability for transport in Sheffield rests with The Rt. Hon. Alistair Darling MP, Secretary of State for Transport, based in London and Edinburgh (both of which are building nice new light rail systems, incidentally :rolleyes:)

No, I said that the person I was responding to and others like them often criticise without having a full grasp of the bigger picture. In my experience, people are prone to heaping unjustified criticism on the Council without asking questions first.

I'm a voter too don't forget.


Thanks for your "I know best" attitude. Please don't tell me I don't know the bigger picture. What you mean is that my reality is not the same as YOUR facts.

I know what its like and have a grasp of the bigger picture. Your attitude on this subject really does examplify what is wrong with the councils travel department.

You know best we don't know anything. It really is patronising to usto say the least.

Here are some statistics demonstrating the scale of the improvements in journey times, as provided to the Area Panel meeting on September 13th:

Average Journey Times, 08.00-09.30, Meadowhead to London Rd / Broadfield Road junction:
Nov-98 0:13:34
Nov-00 0:14:51
Nov-02 0:22:21
Nov-04 0:15:08
Nov-05 0:16:05
Mar-06 0:15:22
May-06 0:14:55
Jun-06 0:14:31
Sep-06 0:10:04



.

Average Journey times 08.00-09.30, Meadowhead to Chesterfield Rd / Scarsdale Rd junction:

Nov-98 0:05:45
Nov-00 0:05:46
Nov-02 0:04:52
Nov-04 0:08:47
Nov-05 0:08:38
Jun-06 0.08:45
Sep-06 0:06:17

The September 06 figures are when the new arrangements were fully working and the Heeley tidal flow system was back in full operation.

Yes and what did the people who live there and drive everyday say and do at the meeting!!

They just laughed at you and told you that they were expericing worse delays. Why won't you listen

traffic is really bad.

Thanks for your "I know best" attitude. Please don't tell me I don't know the bigger picture. What you mean is that my reality is not the same as YOUR facts.

I know what its like and have a grasp of the bigger picture. Your attitude on this subject really does examplify what is wrong with the councils travel department.

You know best we don't know anything. It really is patronising to usto say the least.

I can just picture you sitting down in front of your GP saying, right I've got this condition, your going to do this test, send me to see the specialist consultant, prescribe me xyz drug and refer me on a £2000 per day treatment... What do you think your doctor would say ? I suspect it would start and end in "F"

Yet, day after day, transport planners, traffic engineers, town planners etc who spend several years at collage and university, graduate, then spend several years becoming chartered, have to suffer accusations like this !

YES OF COURSE WE KNOW BEST, IT'S OUR JOB !!!!

P.S. There is no "Travel Department" in the City Council, see, you don't have a full grasp of the situation ;¬)

Your priorities are screwed up, you may know best how to achieve the city councils aims, the problem is that the aim isn't to alleviate congestion and to improve the experience of commuting through the city.

What if we disagree with Central Government? What if we want to change the targets?

Perhaps you should stand for election ??? Then your head would be on the chopping block !

Surely you mean:

"a series of controlled parking zones are being introduced to bully people to use other means of transport"

I used the word "Encourage" and meant it... Bullying is something undertaken by a small minority of forum members when they disagree with an opinion :thumbsup:

And by the city council planning department.
Fines and restrictions are not encouragement, there are penalties for disobeying them. They are not a carrot, they're a great big stick.
There is no carrot because the planning department has no means of providing one.
And this is why such policies are doomed to be a) a public relations failure, b) a failure.

Yes and what did the people who live there and drive everyday say and do at the meeting!!

They just laughed at you and told you that they were expericing worse delays. Why won't you listen

The proof that you are wrong is there in black and white. Those are accurate figures, they aren't made up!

What evidence would you expect the Council to take, heresay or hard fact? They know very well that the average person is not too good at judging things like the length of delays, vehicle speeds etc. That's why they get it checked accurately. Why would they believe people saying there were longer delays when the very accurate journey time monitoring equipment is saying the opposite?

I can just picture you sitting down in front of your GP saying, right I've got this condition, your going to do this test, send me to see the specialist consultant, prescribe me xyz drug and refer me on a £2000 per day treatment... What do you think your doctor would say ? I suspect it would start and end in "F"

Yet, day after day, transport planners, traffic engineers, town planners etc who spend several years at collage and university, graduate, then spend several years becoming chartered, have to suffer accusations like this !

YES OF COURSE WE KNOW BEST, IT'S OUR JOB !!!!

You tell us that traffic congestion has stayed the same since 1993. But only 5% of people on this poll agree with you.

Clearly you think you know best, but obviously you don't on the opinion of the vast majority. If you actually start to listen to the people who pay your wages then perhaps you might not get so many complaints.

P.S. There is no "Travel Department" in the City Council, see, you don't have a full grasp of the situation ;¬)

These sort of comments only confirm what many of us believe, that the councils traffic management department (or whatever its called) are too inward looking and not willing to listen.

As a resident of Sheffield, I think I'm getting good value from our council, indeed, and I'm not the only one, didn't Sheffield get a maximum 4 star rating for performance in 2005 ? I think the "hard working council officers and elected members of the council" need a pat on the back for that !

Forumer, I look forward to your enlightened comments !

The 4 star rating was handed out by the Government, not local people.

Obviously you think that your doing a good job. But i beg to differ, as do many others.

Your priorities are screwed up, you may know best how to achieve the city councils aims, the problem is that the aim isn't to alleviate congestion and to improve the experience of commuting through the city.

Probably, as has been pointed out earlier, because the council have to attempt to satisfy numerous demands.

Take the case of Woodseats - the council are under conflicting pressures from;
a) commuters (many from Dronfield who don't pay Sheffield council tax) who want to drive through the area as fast as they can.
b) Local residents who want to be able to use local amenities without everything being sacrificed to commuters eg. they want to be able to cross roads safely. And probably don't want "rat runs" down the side streets where they live.
c) Local shopkeepers who take most of their money from local residents.
d) The significant minority of non-car users who rely on public transport.
e) The geography - the centre of Woodeats has always been a bottleneck - Chesterfield Road is considerably wider both top and bottom side of Woodseats centre.

(Apologies to any other group I've missed)

Same applies to most other areas - I'm sure we could speed up times from Wakley into the city by making South Road / Commonside / Barber Road etc a dual carriageway - but I don't think it would be very popular with local residents and business.

I can just picture you sitting down in front of your GP saying, right I've got this condition, your going to do this test, send me to see the specialist consultant, prescribe me xyz drug and refer me on a £2000 per day treatment... What do you think your doctor would say ? I suspect it would start and end in "F"

Yet, day after day, transport planners, traffic engineers, town planners etc who spend several years at collage and university, graduate, then spend several years becoming chartered, have to suffer accusations like this !

YES OF COURSE WE KNOW BEST, IT'S OUR JOB !!!!

P.S. There is no "Travel Department" in the City Council, see, you don't have a full grasp of the situation ;¬)


You will find that Drs work in partnership with patients and actually ask them what the problems are and listen to them and then make a diagnosis. If the course of treatment dosen't work you go back and talk to your GP and then they change the treatment so it works. Ie they listen and understand your personal experiences are valid.

Sheffield traffic planners tell us what we want, carry it out, and when we say it isn't working tell us we are wrong and they are the experts and stop whinging.

If your GP did that you would change Drs. Well you can't do that with Traffic Planners , but boy you can with your political masters. If this is the culture that is in the Town hall at the moment I think its time for a change. You need to be reminded that you are a public servant not a public dictator!!

Your arrogance is breathaking and to be honest shows you have forgotten your are public servants.

They ask parents to walk the last 10 minutes of any journey. Just how many do so is a matter for conjecture.

Which results in people parking on streets just outside the "10 minute boundry" (ie. move the problem to another area).

Oh wonderful:rolleyes:


What do you think your doctor would say ? I suspect it would start and end in "F"

I wouldn't expect an attitude like the one you portray in your example above, especially from a "professional".


Yet, day after day, transport planners, traffic engineers, town planners etc who spend several years at collage and university, graduate, then spend several years becoming chartered, have to suffer accusations like this !

Yet, day after day, we have to suffer because of the actions of a few individuals who think that they know best (based on a few accedemic qualifications - when everyone know pieces of paper mean nothing in reality/practice. BTW It's "college" not "collage. See.... All the education in the world, and you still make mistakes:D.


YES OF COURSE WE KNOW BEST, IT'S OUR JOB !!!!

Astounding arrogance there. Way to go:rolleyes:


P.S. There is no "Travel Department" in the City Council, see, you don't have a full grasp of the situation ;¬)

Some of us do know this (and other facts regarding LAs - Google is a useful tool for finding information/research).

I can just picture you sitting down in front of your GP saying, right I've got this condition, your going to do this test, send me to see the specialist consultant, prescribe me xyz drug and refer me on a £2000 per day treatment...
Does your GP say, "sit down son, I'll tell you where it hurts"? :P

You tell us that traffic congestion has stayed the same since 1993. But only 5% of people on this poll agree with you.

If you would care to read my early reply to you, then you would have noticed that I was "to a degree" in agreement with you, I went further to explain why much of the congestion is out of the City Council's hands... But as I've said again, earlier in this thread, you do not seem to want to debate the issue, you just wish to vent your steam at someone, well tough, it's not going to be me !

Clearly you think you know best, but obviously you don't on the opinion of the vast majority. If you actually start to listen to the people who pay your wages then perhaps you might not get so many complaints.

The roll of any professional in public service is to take a judgement on what is best for the general public - Using the NHS as example, is it right to give life saving treatment to 10 people at £100'000 each or provide a jab to prevent flu to 200,000 people for £5 a shot... (I'm unaware of the cost of a flu jab, but it's just an example....

Similarly, is it right for a council to spend £10M per year resurfacing roads to make them more comfortable or should they spend that same amount in accident reduction schemes. I hear what you are saying, I also wish I could have Billions of pounds to sort of congestion, but it simply isn't affordable when you consider widening a road (say for example Ecclesall Road from Hunters Bar to City) to a dual carriageway might involve knocking down, 100 shops, 3 garages, 200 flats and a 300 houses - Just do the math... perhaps Billions !

And even after dualling the road, the queue simply moves to the next congestion spot down the road, thus starting the cycle all over again. Local and National Government employ professionals like myself and planner1 to make the assessments of what is viable, what is affordable and what direction we need to take. We then make recommendations and the elected members vote on what to do, which sometimes is as we advise and sometimes not...

My wages are paid via the Local Transport Plan which is money sourced from Central Government, which is appraised year after year for performance based upon Department for Transport guidelines, meaning that if I don't undertake schemes that the DfT want me to do, next year, the City Council gets less money, so therefore I do listen to the people that pay may wages to ensure that you the public od Sheffield get as much money as possible from the Central Government purse at the expense of other Council's that don't listen and lose funding.

These sort of comments only confirm what many of us believe, that the councils traffic management department (or whatever its called) are too inward looking and not willing to listen.

I and many of my colleagues have worked for other Local Authorities, Central Government, Government Agencies, and importantly in the Private Sector. I myself have been involved in the design of two major Motorway schemes (M6Toll and A1(M) past Ferrybridge), designed Trunk Road Infrastructure through to keep clear road markings, I've set up traffic and travel CCTV operations rooms, built bus stations and trailblazed new technologies... If you care to listen, myself and others will take the time to explain, if you want to rant, then you will not get to learn about innovations and how outward looking we are and how we listen and react to what we hear

As I've said before, the problem with democracy is, that you don't always get what you want.

Regards

Haydn

You will find that Drs work in partnership with patients and actually ask them what the problems are and listen to them and then make a diagnosis. If the course of treatment dosen't work you go back and talk to your GP and then they change the treatment so it works. Ie they listen and understand your personal experiences are valid.

You will find that every single scheme undertaken by any Highway Authority goes through public consultation - Plans nearly always change after public consultation, sometimes for the worse, sometimes for the better. You will also find that many schemes are a reaction to public unrest about safety, requests to change waiting restrictions, or perhaps to lobby for a bypass...

Sheffield traffic planners tell us what we want, carry it out, and when we say it isn't working tell us we are wrong and they are the experts and stop whinging.

I've said earlier in the thread, we in Sheffield have seen Billions of pounds worth of infrastructure built in the city... Some schemes will please you all, some will please most, some will please non-motorised users, some will please bus users, some will really annoy some user, but really please others... I cannot provide 100% of my schemes that will please 100% of you... I'd be a lair to say I could.

If your GP did that you would change Drs. Well you can't do that with Traffic Planners , but boy you can with your political masters. If this is the culture that is in the Town hall at the moment I think its time for a change. You need to be reminded that you are a public servant not a public dictator!!

You will find that our Political Masters have their wings clipped by central policy advice granted from the DfT, which in turn is developed over decades and that governments left and right can come and go, but the real power is dictated by the financial world, who always end up providing funding for policy change - Politics is more than just Labour, Liberal or Conservative, it's about who will fund the political framework that a party hangs it's hat on... typically Labour promotes big government (i.e PFI, DBFO, Land Lease, Partnerships), Conservative promotes little government (i.e privatisation) - each requires funding and each is totally dependant on the banks playing ball with the policy shift.

Your arrogance is breathaking and to be honest shows you have forgotten your are public servants.

I'm often confused for being arrogant, however I'm just big, loud, don't take no bull, live my job with a passion, but known to my friends and family as a big softy... don't let first impressions tarnish your view of me !

Yet, day after day, we have to suffer because of the actions of a few individuals who think that they know best (based on a few accedemic qualifications - when everyone know pieces of paper mean nothing in reality/practice. BTW It's "college" not "collage. See.... All the education in the world, and you still make mistakes:D.

I never said I was any good at spelling or grammar... and yes, many pieces of paper do not make a professional... a proven track record makes a professional

Astounding arrogance there. Way to go:rolleyes:

I don't really care if you do find it arrogant, I stand by my right to protect myself against comments challenging my skills and abilities

Some of us do know this (and other facts regarding LAs - Google is a useful tool for finding information/research).

Google is also known for providing links to bits of information, that lead the lay person into a false asumption of knowledge. I often have to reply to letters from the public where they have printed some snippet from the internet, claiming that something is incorrect on a scheme and that it needs changing - I then have to carefully point out that although, they do have part of the story, the snippet they refer to also has to be read in conjunction with several other snippets and that they actually contridict that snippet they found that favoured their case...

Mod note:

Perhaps this is now a good place to close this thread.