Now i,m not sure if i should be saying what i,m about to say on here but if i don't i fear i might explode so i want to clear my chest and listen to any reply that may help me cope with it.
Smacking children is one topic on here and i know i would be breaking the law if i did that but very soon i don't know if i can hold my patients for much longer.
My son is 15 and he refuse to go to school.
Now i have had problems with him over one thing or another for 2 years though he's not a criminal in any shape or form but he is making my life hell and reading some of your points about smacking this has made me react.
on Christmas eve 2 years ago i had to rush home from a night shift because he attacked his mum kicking her in the face and punching her.
I have never lost it with my kids and have 5, but that night i did.
To have your kids laugh in your face and say you can't touch me or i will phone the police is giving them the oppertunity to drive you to your limit and they will get away with it.
Well that night he did'nt get away with it and sadly i freaked.
I could have punched right round the house that evening as this was one of many attcks on his mum and i just hit him the once and yes he phoned the police.
They did not arrest me because the officer did not want to see my two babys without a dad on xmas day but i was warned off despite my wifes lip 3 times the size it usually is.
His behaviour has deteriated ten fold and now i cannot get him to go to school.
I have tried to reason with him about how important it is to do his exams only to be told to shut up.
I have dragged him out of bed to get him to go to school morning after morning when all discusssions have broke down and then had to do it all over again to get him to leave the house.
He isn't easy to handle either as hes bigger than me and very strong and i,m completely exhausted at the end of it.
Even if i got him there he would walk through the front door then streight out of the back one.
He has been expelled from one and taken on by another and now i,m loosing my patients but i cannot use physical punishment for his behavour even when he threatens me with his face into mine eggin me on 'come on then try it'.
I have been liasing with Education welfare and now they are taking me to court because he won't attend school.
What do they expect me to do drag him by the hair or carry him over my shoulder, god nobody has tried to help him more than me and now i,m about to get a criminal record and then may loose my job as i work for the government.
I am physically drained and i cannot do anything about it and i,m ready to face prosecution for trying to be a good parent to a child that completely disrespects his parents.
I know this is not the place to wash my dirty laundry but the education system and the ' do not smack your kids brigade' are nothing more than a load of S***e and instead of addressing the real problem they take the easy road and prosicute his father for doing everything i could and failed.

That is a tough senario and I'm afraid I can't say I know what you're going through.

What would I do?
Thinking irrationally at the time, I would have probably beat the kid till he was black n blue for attacking his mum in thr first place! No I'm not saying that is the answer, and even if he phoned the police, it may (just may) have made him think twice about doin it again!

Thinking rationally I would have restrained him to the floor. Had his mum phoned the police and prosecuted the little s**t. After all, at 15 he is of the age of where he responsible. But this happened 2 years ago right? Making him 13... is he of prosecution age at 13? I don't know.
I have no doubt tht you love your son, despite is behaviour, but the possibility of care needs to be considered. Having his mum's saftey at risk (as well as your own) not to mention the criminal record aspect of things for you shouldn't even require a seconds thought. I would suggest counselling but if he isn;t going to school, then I doubt he would go there. Hypnotherapy is another possibility. Behavioural hypnotherapy is becoming bigger (especially in the states) and is proving to really help things.

Try offering him a holiday to somewhere he wants to go, in exchange for counselling and behavioural hypnotherapy.
Also see if there are groups of people for him to talk to and find out why he is behaving like he is. There maybe someone (not much older than him... 19 or so) who has been a behavioural problem in the past and grown out of it, who could offer some help to your son.

DO NOT just ignore the problem in hopes that it will go away on its own. Nip it in the bud now.

Jeez Cycleracer sounds like you have your hands full.
Again I can not know what it is like, but it sounds to me like whatever you do it will not change things in the short term, he may grow up and come to his senses one day.

You have a younger son? right? is there some jealousy?

I think he needs to forget the schooling and go straight into work, I know it will be hard to get a job, but once he is sixteen he may be able to get something which will give him some money and he will start to feel independant.

Good luck with it.

Sorry to hear about this Cycleracer. We discuss these things on the fora with a kind of detachment but then when it smacks you in the face it's very alarming.

My suggestion for what it's worth is to get your GP to recommend a child psychologist. There's probably a waiting list for this but the sooner you act the better. I saw a prog on TV where the parents were suffering in much the same way as yourselves and the medicos prescribed a regime similar to that recommended above but also including drugs. So, again, keep on at your GP until you get a suitable response. Failing that get your MP on board and get him to kick some a**. I think David Blunkett's your MP so he should carry some clout.

Good luck mate.

I think legal help is needed and a group of workers need to do a report on your son.

He needs help and so does your family!!!.

It is perhaps a tad late and obviously not a nice thing to do, but diaries are suggested to keep an accurate track of events as they happen.
Mum should have pressed some kind of charges and physical damage should always be photographed if you memory kicks in to do get the camera out.

Write down what you have had to endure over the last two years or more if applicable and give it to your legal counsel. You are entitled to one hours FREE legal advice with any solicitor.
Citizens advice, what are social services doing? Is there a health Visitor around? GP's? Grab some help.

Can the school give you any backing on you having to drag your son to school. Someone in officladom who can say - "yes this man has tried to get his son to go to school and we haven't given him enough help, I have seen it"

We are with you and if there is anything we can help with give us a shout.

Are there no solicitors on forum who can advise???

Love
Moon

Cycleracer you really sound to be having a terrible time. I have all that adolescent stuff to come with my two daughters. I can remember what I was like as a teenager so I'm preparing for a bumpy ride.

Please please don't take this the wrong way but in this case smacking in earlier times clearly hasn't worked. This is where my dilemma comes in. I was smacked (by hand and strap) as a child and was given a humiliating crack every now and again at school for nothing any more serious than talking. I have smacked my own children but am always really upset afterwards. I honestly don't think that it works in the long term. However my theories don't help you.

I think that your son needs some sort of counselling asap before he takes his anger and agression onto the streets. I would definitely make my GP the first port of call. You don't say if his behaviour is having an impact on the behaviour of your other children. Has school not offered to put you in touch with an eduactional social worker?

you know, im a teenager, and i kind of was a bit like your son.....only because i was being bullied and i felt like there was no one i could talk to. im not saying your son is but if you leave him for a while and dont talk to him then si t down with him and just let him talk(if he wants-DONTforce him) that happened with me..... now im back on track with a great boyfriend and i have just enrolled on a college course. Thatrs what happened with me and its worked out fine.

good luck

itl be a long road but youll get there eventually

Sammie maybe you could be the kind of person to have a chat with his son. Even if via MSN or summat. If you had experience. Not to put pressure on or anything... only if you feel that you would be up to the task.

Just a thought. Tell me to butt out if you like!:D

Sorry to hear your story. I'm sure the other readers of the forum will back me up in saying it sounds like you've had a tough time and you have our good wishes for reaching an acceptable solution.

You should hope for the best but prepare for the worst.
If you haven't already done so, make notes going as far back as you can of his actions and yours - be honest. In particular note what help you have sought from officialdom (school, social services etc) and the responses. Get your wife to do the same but independently of you.

Have a think around possible causes - low self esteem as a result of poor academic achievements, sibling rivalry, bullying, confusion over gender/sexual orientation etc. If you can spot the underlying problem you're on a winner for addressing it.

Look for any positive behaviours and try to let it be known that you have spotted the good and respect him for it - but do be awfully careful it doesn't sound like you're patronising him.

There are seven people affected here. You don't say the ages of the other kids except that 2 were babies 2 years ago. You cannot let that one individual make life for the others intolerable - and what kind of role model is he giving for the youngsters?

Don't be a martyr, don't blame yourself, don't think "if only I'd done... years ago", don't think you're a bad parent, even if that's what the Education welfare people are telling you (if they are reacting that way they they're incompetent prats) that just makes it harder to deal with the here and now.

Do cooperate with the officials, do show them respect, do ask for their help and treat them as "the experts" even if they are a waste of space they will respond better if you are making them feel important.

You will need to be ready to be firm but fair. Level with him (if he'll listen). Questions like "how do you think it makes your mum feel when ... " and statements like "When you do ... I feel ..." (fill in the blanks).

Give him the air-space to say his piece. Don't argue it point by point, don't correct individual statements just hear him out respectfully only intervene to get him to explain what he's saying and to say more. You can then ask the same from him. He may try to argue your points - you have to have strong self control, and not let yourself get dragged into a shouting match, do that and you've lost the arguement. Don't dismiss what he says out of hand. It may be extreme and exaggerated but there may be a nugget of truth underneath that will give you an insight into the real problem. However wrong it seems just try taking it at face value.

No threats unless they are reasonable and you mean them and can and will carry them out. Don't back him into a corner, make sure he always has 2 choices the one he wants and you don't or the one you want and he doesn't . Spell out the consequences of the first (or, better, get him to project forward himself) and spice the second choice up to make it more attractive.

You could lay it on the line that if there is any more violence against anyone then he is old enough to be responsible for his actions and you will involve the Police - but that means you'll have to do it and there is a high probability that he will test your resolve. That's bloody difficult thing to do to your own child but think of it as a positive action to break his cycle of unacceptable behaviour in his best long-term interests, and think of the benefit to the other people involved.

Better if you can use incentives rather than threats "if you attend school and behave maturely for the next 5 days you get those trainers you want". You might be too close to the problem to be able to do this yourself, you may need help - from a respected relative maybe? Counselling can be a big help but I guess he'd be uncooperative - That's fine, the rest of the family could participate and agree how to haandle matters. Counselling won't give you any answers but will help tease the right answers out of you.

See if you can get him on some kind of activity holiday scheme - depending on your financial circumstances you may find a source of financial support. The best of those build self esteem and redirect excess energy and even anger in a creative, positive direction.

Men and women approach issues from different angles, get a female perspective too. Men tend to confront issues whereas women can often get a better result by a more subtle approach. As a lad he kind of knows what the male confrontational approach is like and he knows how to respond, a female approach might wrong-foot him.

There is no "right answer" you need to get lots of advice and pick out what bits sound best to you with the knowledge only you have of the lad and the circumstances. There is definitely one wrong answer and that is to do nothing and let the situation drift further out of control.

Anyway that's my take on the problem, I'm probably talking ****** but I hope you get something useful out of it if only the knowledge that people on the forum DO give a damn about each other.

I'd be willing to have a chat with him if need be...
Chloé

There is only one soution to your problem, and that is to fetch the police to your son when he gets violent and have him prosecuted.

He is at an age when he knows what he is doing is wrong and should be made to face his responsibilities.

As regards him refusing to go to school, report him first to the headmaster and also to the attendance officers and tell them he will not listen to reason and he is out of your control.

I saw an article in the Today Star about a young lady who didn't go to school but things turned out differently a year later when she went to collage to study nursing.

I didn't fully read it but it may be of some interest.

Thankyou for your replies i have read them with great interest and all of you have hit the right note on the problem i am having.
This reply will be lengthy so you will be forgiven to skip some out.
Today I returned home after my night shift and the Education officer turned up around 9.30 and i was out but returned when she was here.
My wife was again crying and the officer was upstairs trying to persuid my boy to get out of bed, something i tried to do at 7.30 but could'nt.
She got the abuse that we get for the first time and saw what he can be really like, and due to frustration issued me with a warning that i will recieve papers to be tried in Court and had the gaul to tell me that i may go to prison.
I composed myself and explained that i need help and this is not helping matters taking me to Court and the real issue is my sons attitude and anger.
I then tried to bring him out of bed through desperation and landed two massive blows to my stomach with his right foot.
yes i then retaliated and thumped him and hard.
That is the second time i have retaliated after countless attacks.
I'd lost it yet again and then my wife phoned the police.
That visitor got a glimpse into the real problem i have with him.
to cut other detail short she is arranging a police officer to escort him to school from tomorrow.
Now Someone mentioned to find the real problem into his behaviour and i have known some of it for a couple of weeks.
I have a genetic disorder called Hereditary multiple exostosis, Diaphysia Aclasia.
All my kids have the same and hopefully my younger two have missed out as its to early to tell.
Rather than me go into the disorder , its a bone disorder and its available to read at www.ox1.co.uk and look for the above named.
My eldest two have had numerous operations throughout the years and so has my middle son.
3 weeks ago he went in to have the biggest of them all to lenghten his leg and its going to take 2 years of surgery and now he has a fixator on which has to be ajusted 4 times a day.
He/we have been to see a Phyco today and he blames me for his condition and this has been expressed in his anger by name calling and he keeps saying its my fault he is like this.
I suppose it is but i did not go round blaming my mum when i went through the same.
The Doctor has said that he was getting bullied at school due to the state of his ankle and that might be a major factor.
I have also explained that i got bullied at school a great deal and the condition shows more on me than it does on him i also would'nt do P.E due to constant ridicule and sometimes violance towards me as i was always smaller than everyone else even the girls and i am ashamed to say they were no better.
If i could go back to then things would be oh so different.
I did not have the information on this condition then all i knew is i walked different from anyone else and had to put up with kids constantly attacking me for laughs and i did not know the reason.
I have explained everything about this condition to all my family and how to handle it and make good of themselves, something i have managed to do and do sport don't be affraid to wear shorts or learn to swim, all things i could not face until i was an adult.
I had the decency to explain my disorder to my girlfriend who went on to become my wife and we are still together 24 years later and happy but i guess my son as taken it hard and he certainly lets me know.
The good news to come out today is the orphapedic surgeon at the Childrens hospital has intervened and is going to contact the Education people and tell them he is not in the right frame of mind to return to school, so hopefully that should re route the Court appearance.
That does not solve the problem though because he is determined never to return to school and his exams are due in May, his mock exams now and he will leave with nothing.
The school has offered him mornings only and to organise transport to and fro so they have been helpfull but i do fear for his future and maybe the hate he has for me will not be the same for him when he has children and you never know maybe one day this dreadfull disease will one day be eradicated and end the misery that this can cause familys and end the ridicule and cruel comments we have all put up with by people who just don't understand the real problem.

I have every sympathy for you. Sometimes it feels like you are banging your head against a brick wall and you just cannot do anything right, but most of the time you feel you are not in control of your life. As the mother of an extremely volatile and strong 12 year old girl I am in a similar situation. She has been this way since around 16 months old having been the most pleasant baby you could wish for. She has been permanently excluded from 2 schools mainly because of the violence and aggression. Three weeks ago she assaulted me for the 4th time. She was arrested spent 14 hours (overnight) in a police cell and charged with assault and affray. She was bailed from court and had 3 weeks to think about it. I cannot believe the difference in her. She is putting a lot of effort into trying to change. Now there is co-operation and control. It seems like we may have finally broke the cycle and be able to move on and have a better relationship. At the same time we are getting a lot of input from several agencies including Family Support who have been extremely helpful (I can give you their number if you pm me as they may be able to help you). There is every chance that you will resolve your differences even if it means doing some things that you think you ought not to do, and that your son will come to terms with his problems. Good luck and I hope things improve for you soon.

Always here mate if you need a shoulder to scream at. I may only be able to wave a wand and look wierd but sometimes it helps :D

Glad to see you are finally getting through to someone.

Moon Maiden

Originally posted by The Cycleracer
Yes i then retaliated and thumped him and hard.
That is the second time i have retaliated after countless attacks.
I was going to say "while everyone understands your frustration" and realised that generalisation to be simplistic. To really understand how someone feels you have to have been in a similar situation.
So ... while I acknowledge that you were under extreme provocation, responding to violence with violence never resolves issues, usually makes the problem worse and puts you in the wrong. You have shown a lot of strength of character overcoming the problem of the illness yourself and making a success of your life, you need to show a bit more and contain your urge to retaliate.Now Someone mentioned to find the real problem into his behaviour and i have known some of it for a couple of weeks ... a genetic disorder ...OK that puts the whole thing in a different light. Far more important to focus on the approaches that look to re-establishing his self confidence and keep the harsher options in reserve. You should be getting support from "the authorities" and it sounds as if you are starting to get some. Keep pushing and with the right help there's a good chance of a good outcome. It would be so much harder if he was basically just "a bad 'un".
And genetics can work in your favour. I'm always one step ahead of my lad because we are so similar, he tries the same tricks as I tried at the same age - but I'm expecting them, he thinks I'm psychic! You developed coping strategies, you need to help him discover the same strategies - probably best not to tell him because at 15 he's a rebellious youth and at that age parents know nothing.
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years. (Mark Twain?)
he blames me for his condition and this has been expressed in his anger by name calling and he keeps saying its my fault he is like this.
We are all born with a different genetic mix, if we aborted all but the perfect specimens the population of UK would be in single figures - and how would I ever get to find where the others were? (joke). Life is about focusing on our positive aspects and making the best of them while accepting our limitations and developing strategies to cope with them.

Originally posted by mslotus
At the same time we are getting a lot of input from several agencies including Family Support who have been extremely helpful (I can give you their number if you pm me as they may be able to help you.
Hello MsLotus, I am sorry to hear you have been through similar things to Cycleracer and am happy that you are finding help and maybe breaking the cycle of things.
I was just thinking (re: the above quote) that if people read this site, without posting because they are too worried about reaction or are not up to it yet... that publically posting the telephone numbers of any help agencies you know would be a great benefit to everyone.

I'm sure the agencies wouldn't mind having their number broadcasted like this, as it's all word of mouth.

Just my 2penneth!

hi i dont really know what to say to you but.. as you know i was bullied at school..i have mild dispraxia (i think thats how you spell it!) and it basically means that i am clumsyand when it comes to written work, i know what i need to write down on paper, but i dont know how to write it so it makes sense and sounds o.k. (thats the simplest way i can think of describing it)When i started school, i diddnt this would be a problem for me but when i tried to explain to people why i struggled with the written side of things, they misunderstood and assumed i was thick! this progressed to all sorts of bullying (non-violent) and threats and all sorts. (the teachers were great about my dispraxia and helped me out a lot) it got to the point where i was scared to go to school but i felt i couldnt talk to my parents so i told them i was sick, to get a few days off school.

(i never told anyone this before by the way!)

im not saying this is happening with your son, but the fact he may be seen as "different" at school (like me) may, as youve said have a effect on him.DONT BEAT YOPURSELF UP ABOUT IT.
therer are proberbly lots of things going through his mind right now and these can all be very confusing.

itsd iobvious for us all to see that you are doing the best you can and you cant do anymore than that.

if your son-or you or your wife or anyone for that matter wants to talk to me, id be willing to listen and do what i canm to help!

smile and the whole world will smile with you!!! :)

sammie

just a thought.... Has your son got a girlfriend? or a really close mate? you could try talking to them and seeing what they think and see if theuy can get him to see things from a different perspective?

You have to watch your own temper. Under NO circumstances is it permissible for you to hit your own son. Trust me, if you start off by throwing a few punces it won't be long before something far more serious occurs.

Originally posted by waxy chuff
You have to watch your own temper. Under NO circumstances is it permissible for you to hit your own son. Trust me, if you start off by throwing a few punces it won't be long before something far more serious occurs.
I don't think public judging is what's needed right now. Solutions rather than 'You shouldn't do this or that'!!!

No advice.
Just saying my thoughts are with you, and I hope it all starts to work out better.

DaBouncer, no judgement was intended or implied. I simply said that it's not in any way constructive or permissible to fall into the trap that his son is laying for him.

As someone who has stepped over the line on a couple of occasions, I know exactly what path it sets you on.

I don't offer advice as I don't know what he SHOULD do - but I know what he shouldn't. Being told that we need "solutions" rather than "public judging" by a man whose sole piece of advice was "get him to talk to someone" is undeniably a bit rich.

Cycleracer, you may well have to ask your son to leave when he turns sixteen. Drastic, but domestic violence (no matter the perpetrator or victim) is never justified.

I'm sorry Waxy Chuff if you feel my comments were 'a bit rich', but a public display of saying what someone shouldn't be doing isn't exactly helping matters.

By 'getting him' to talk to someone I feel is a step in the right direction. Cycleracer I believe is aware that his reaction wasn't the way to go, but telling him what to not to do (whether it was from a desire to help or not) wont serve to help matters.

I was merely saying public critisism of anothers actions is hardly offering good advice or help! Did I resort to an attack on your advice by calling it a bit rich? No!

If you would like to continue this conversation/debate/arguement might I suggest via PM or MSN be more suitable eh?

Hi Debouncer, did you enjoy your hols, not to much Greek beer eh.

Waxy chuff did make one very good point about asking him to leave at sixteen.
That will be done without a shadow of a doubt, He would be out now if i had my way but i am still responsible for him, so he stays until then.

Waxy you are right in theory that retaliation makes it worse but i am facing continueous violence and i have hit him twice in years.
Once when he gave his mum a kicking and Wednesday when he booted me hard to the stomach while the education officer was present.
Had that been a man on the street I would have hit out a lot harder but it took one hit to realise that i hit harder than he does and he better not try me and he did,nt.

At 15 he is a big strong lad almost adult and when he lashes out it comes from his boots with tremendas power and it hurts.
He does not poo poo around.

No son should ever hit his Mum, hitting Dad is one thing but Mum never . You can have many fathers in your child hood but you only ever have one Mother.

How many people in there teens have lashed out at there fathers thinking there tougher than he is, that is what they do but they draw the line at hitting there mums.

We are now trying to organise somewhere he can go for a short while a kind of recoup were hopefully he will come back a better person.

He has 5 months to alter or he will be living away from us and that is for certain.

i hope it all goes well for both you and your family

Final word
Thankyou for all your points of view.
Putting this in public domain took some guts and i think i did the right thing and to be honest the people on this forum have been very supportive and now i have got it off my chest i feel a lot better.
I have a rocky road ahead and now its time to deal with it and try to make a successfull outcome.
This has been a depressing thread to say the least and now i am going to close it so we can all cheer up and get on with posting our very usefull and happy topics.
Your points of view have been most helpfull, some very close to the real thing and some I entirely disagree with but all have been very helpfull.
Thankyou for all your PMs and i will be in touch personally.
Once again thanks for all your support and we will chat soon.

Regards

Paul ( The Cycleracer. )