Urgh, they're starting to really get on my tits. They just make the left look like irritating petition touters with loudspeakers.

They don't represent the left, and they try and muscle in on just about every campaign and control it. I remember vividly a meeting of the 'Youth Against the War' group last year, in which a certain member of the SWP (who, in addition, was about 27, when the group was aimed at teenagers, and everyone else averaged about 17) tried to get us all to join the SWP, when the group was a non-party specific campaign...etc etc.

My Dad also told me that he stopped helping out with the CND campaign in the 80s because the SWP tried controlling that too.

Anyone else find them acutely irritating?

I find them irritating too, and I agree with you about them trying to jump on every bandwagon going. Some of them can become quite obnoxious if you don't sign their petitions or if you tell them you don't agree with them on everything! Also, as I think someone else asked on another thread on this forum... why are they called Socialist Workers? Do they get paid for standing on Fargate yelling at passers-by?

The SWP have been the extreme left wing 'Rent-a-mob' for 20 or 30 years.

Just look at the number of placards and posters you see at any demo that has the SWP's typography and font.

They're exhibiting classic 'entryist' politics; find a good cause, attach yourself to it and try and stir it up. The SWP no more want democratic change than I want to push sharpened pencils up my nose.

What always amazes me is the profile of your typical SWP member - student, academic, 'media' - not exactly workers....


Joe

i don't have a clue what your on about,
and frankly i dont care!!! :loopy: :confused: :loopy:

I don't think they have worked out just how counter-productive they can be. I went on a couple of the anti-war protest marches and there were always hordes of SWP members there handing out placards and banners with very prominant SWP symbols - it was very easy to look at the march and see it change from a genuine outpouring of popular sentiment that crossed class, age and race divides to 'just another SWP rent-a-mob' :(

Originally posted by Donz
i don't have a clue what your on about,
and frankly i dont care!!! :loopy: :confused: :loopy:

Well, as I said before, apathy kills.

Seriously though, how old are you? I'm only 17 and I care about politics and world affairs. You know why? Because behind your facade of pop culture (Yay Busted! Yay McFly! Wooh!) the world isn't such a fun and sparkly place. Pop culture is just a load of big companies trying to manipulate you and get money. And you're only proof that that works.

"I don't care". Have fun not caring. You evidently are completely oblivious to the critical state that the world is in at the moment. Go play with your Official Busted Merchandise.





Sheesh...

Originally posted by JoePritchard
TThey're exhibiting classic 'entryist' politics; find a good cause, attach yourself to it and try and stir it up. The SWP no more want democratic change than I want to push sharpened pencils up my nose.Joe
The SWP is completely opposed to entryism as a means of advancing their ideas as any former member of Militant will tell you. They do believe in participating in broad "progressive" coalitions and of course they will use this this as a means of recruitment and to engage in more than single issue debates. They believe all such campaigns raise class consciousness.

As Revolutionary Trotskysts they make no pretence of wanting democratic change though the ballot box, for them there is no Parliamentary Road to Socialism. (Aren't they right?)
Their persistent attempts to recruit and promote their cause may be irritating but I have never found them to be anything other than quite open and honest about their beliefs and politics.

Well, speaking as a fervent Marxist, I wouldn't belong to any party that would have me as a member.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Well, speaking as a fervent Marxist, I wouldn't belong to any party that would have me as a member.

That's you, me and Groucho then. :heyhey:

Nomme

I remember a few years ago when they privatised the Housing Benefit there was this protest outside the town hall.

And all that happened is the SWP and the anarchists spent the entire time arguing. Cries of "hang on aren't we hear to shout at the council" were ignored in favour of bickering amongst themselves.

Since then I can't think of either group without The Peoples Front of Judea (from Life of Brian) instantly springing to mind.

Know what I mean though? Splitters!

The problems of factionalism!
Were they real Anarcho Syndicalists or just some young gits with black jackets and spiky hair?

I was a member of the SWP for a number of years. Why did I leave? I left beause, although I agreed with 99% of their politics I didn't agree with many of their methods.

Contrary to what people might think, most of the SWP members I knew weren't students or layabout rent-a-mob types. They were teachers, social workers, housing workers, manual workers etc etc. Decent ordinary people really. At the time I was a single mum with a pre-school child and they expected me to just drop everything and go petitioning or selling papers at some steel works or factory. I just couldn't do it. They all had comfy homes, cars and a good standard of living and really knew nothing of the struggles of being unemployed, a single parent etc. Basically, I just got fed up of the constant hassles and pushiness.

I do think their hearts are in the right place but maybe their methods need to be a little less pushy and confrontational.

I am a great believer in direct action and If I feel strongly about something then I will get off my arse and do something about it. However, I don't feel the need to constantly badger people in the street about it. I have been on many demos etc and was very involved in the whole anti-war campaign, but as me, an individual, nothing else. I believe in fighting for the good cause but I don't jump on bandwagons.

Basicaly I think the SWP has some good ideas but need to tone down their methods a bit.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Well, speaking as a fervent Marxist, I wouldn't belong to any party that would have me as a member.

Yep, i'm that kind of Marxist too, and so are my brothers. :D

I think any extreme group tends to be didactic and that really puts people off them, and SWP is no different.

Originally posted by noseyrosie
You know why? Because behind your facade of pop culture (Yay Busted! Yay McFly! Wooh!) the world isn't such a fun and sparkly place.

YES IT IS!!! But there is room for politics too.

Originally posted by Snook
YES IT IS!!! But there is room for politics too.


The thing that made me say that is that over the last couple of weeks I have been pretty much cut off from mainstream life, and current affairs, etc. During this time the world's seemed damned sparkly. But in reality, when I got back here, the news is, once again, full of turmoil in Iraq, Tibet...you name it, there's turmoil there.

So. The answer?

Simple! We turn the world into a giant folk festival!

Originally posted by Saifa
I remember a few years ago when they privatised the Housing Benefit there was this protest outside the town hall.

And all that happened is the SWP and the anarchists spent the entire time arguing. Cries of "hang on aren't we hear to shout at the council" were ignored in favour of bickering amongst themselves.

Since then I can't think of either group without The Peoples Front of Judea (from Life of Brian) instantly springing to mind.

Know what I mean though? Splitters!

Hang on Saifa
wasn't that the Judean Peoples Front
and any way what have the Romans done for us!

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
The problems of factionalism!
Were they real Anarcho Syndicalists or just some young gits with black jackets and spiky hair?

Syndicalism is however only one "branch" of anarchism...

anyway, back OT,

The SWP irritate me immensely. No, I do not want to sign your petition. Yes I do give a damn about certain affairs, but handing over control to central state communists is not the way I see of solving the problem.

They do hang onto any cause and try to promote their party. Maybe their aim isnt to take over the campaign, but invariable all the non swoppies leave out of frustration

You would think they'd have better things to do on a Saturday than standing in Fargate spouting the same dreary old nonsense that virtually no one is slightly interested in. They seem to actually believe that most of the country is behind them in whatever cause they are championing at the time. Makes me smile when they put someone up as candidate in the elections....sometimes the votes go into double figures!

Originally posted by Squiggs

They do hang onto any cause and try to promote their party. Maybe their aim isnt to take over the campaign, but invariable all the non swoppies leave out of frustration

That's what I meant by entryism. In my Labour Party days I had dealings with SWP, Militant and Worker's Power and basically all adopted the same tactics of getting in to campaigns and then using various tactics to bore the pants off of the 'regular' members of the groups until folks left having got bored with hour upon hour of points of order, Marxist diatribe and general bulls**t.

In fact, more than once have I considered the possibility that they're all MI5 plants...:-)

Joe

Oh come on...

you forgot to mention Workers Hammer, Workers Voice, the RCP, the CPGB and Red Action

(I'm sure there's more but the names escape me for now)

Funnily enough I think that WP must have had the rights to our Labour Ward because we received few problems from the RCP, or CPGB.

Not heard of Worker's Hammer - this was in the early 1980s to early 1990s, so perhaps the timeing is out!

A real political alphabet soup, though!

Joe

noseyrosie - woo and yaay for a giant folk festival!!!
Stop listening to teh media it is full of all the bad **** going on, you know its going on , you don't need it rammed down your throat everyday.

I was in an SWP paper some years back, i went on a demo against some nazi's who were demoing against some croation gypsies who, shock horror, were being allowed to stay in a grotty b and b in Dover.
Anyway somehow the SWP managed to angle a photo of me making me look like I was about to hit a policeman - I wasn't very happy as I am not violent and didn't do it and it just shows how ALL the media will twist things.

Originally posted by Squiggs
Syndicalism is however only one "branch" of anarchism... syndicalism isn't anarchism at all - it's syndicalism! but anyway...

I wqas a member of the SWP for 12 years, leaving after getting too annoyed at their opportunist tail-ending of any campaign going, and various examples of completely naff politics. They aren't the worst of the far-left in Britain, just the most succesful, and the most obvious.

Despite there many many many annoying qualities, they have done some good stuff too. The original Anti-nazi League played a massive role in the defeat of the National Front, the Stop the War Coalition organised some quite large demos (even if ultimately they didnt go far enough to stop the war), plenty of good basic trades union work.

One thing i can never really understand, is people complaing about them (or any other group) giving out placards with their name on them. If you dont like it, dont take one! Or rip the SWP off the top (quite a popular thing to do), whats the big deal?

As to their success in elections, leading member Michael Lavalette is a councillor in Preston (won his seat for the Socialist Alliance) and the Respect coalition they helped to create won a seat in Tower Hamlets a couple of weeks ago.

oh, and Squiigs, you forget (draws in deep breath) the Revolutonairy Democratic Group, the Revolutionary Communist Group, the International Bolshevik Tendency, the CPGB (M-L), the CPB (Morning Star), the AWL, ISG, Workers Vanguard, the WRP, Marxist Party, New Communist Party, Red Party (winners of the worst name for any lefty group) and..sod it, I'll leave it there I think!

We in the BNP have a name for them it's socialist wAN**** PARTY note the self censorship here.
To me they are vermin,but like I have always said everyone is entitled to their right of free speech.

Originally posted by royjames
We in the BNP have a name for them it's socialist wAN**** PARTY note the self censorship here.
To me they are vermin,but like I have always said everyone is entitled to their right of free speech.

Any one spot the irony coming from a sewer dweller?

Now now Max I never knew you lived down their lol

Originally posted by royjames
Now now Max I never knew you lived down their lol

That, sir, is a slur on my reputation. I have never lived down anyone's lol. :loopy:

The SWP is full of layabouts who have not done a days work in their life.Its time this lot where sorted out.National service is what they need.

Originally posted by royjames
We in the BNP have a name for them it's socialist wAN**** PARTY note the self censorship here.
To me they are vermin,but like I have always said everyone is entitled to their right of free speech.
cor thats clever! bet no one else has ever thought of that. I imagine you don't like them cos they occasionally point out some unpleasant facts about your shabby little outfit. or is it because they aim to unite working-class people as a class, across race, colour and creed, seeing us all as equals and capable of running society without the bosses you love?

btw matt, its actually quite wrong that they are all workshy layabouts, most of them have quite nice professional jobs (teachers, social workers etc)

Yeah...I mean that's the amusing thing above all else. However much the SWP irritate me (one ginger haired buffoon in particular), I'd much rather them than the BNP!

The BNP make the SWP look normal and rational in political terms! Hehe...

Originally posted by noseyrosie
...However much the SWP irritate me (one ginger haired buffoon in particular), ... mmm, wonder who you mean....hehehe :)

Originally posted by commie pig
mmm, wonder who you mean....hehehe :)

Well, I'M not in the SWP....so it can't be me you're having a dig at :lol: ...do you know who I'm taling about?!

For gods sake get it out into the open you know you will feel all the better for it.
Seriously the SWP are NOT the answer to the working class,we are the only option for them.
Besides when has a marxist regime ever done anything good for the people,and dont say castro because cuba is in a right mess.

Originally posted by mattsmith
The SWP is full of layabouts who have not done a days work in their life.Its time this lot where sorted out.National service is what they need.

hanging is too good for them/

I take it Phan you have had a bad experience of those people ?

Originally posted by royjames

Seriously the SWP are NOT the answer to the working class,we are the only option for them.

Come on roy, don't be shy. Just add in what you missed out ... if they're white.

lol sorry Max I can't oblige you there, now if you want to get in to the race debate then you need to re open the BNP thread.
After all this is not about us is it ,it's about the good old leftie SWP.
I think it was a shame our thread got closed although I can understand Geoff closing it,I mean to be called a muppet I will never sleep sound again lol
But seriously I was looking forward to this new debating idea that is a shame it looks to have been ended.
But maybe you know something I dont on this one?
Just out of interest Max do you think you might stand again for election,only I have been giving it some thought of late,what with the general election on the horizon or is this classified.

Originally posted by royjames

After all this is not about us is it ,it's about the good old leftie SWP.


You are the one who brought ther BNP into it Roy

You wasted a perfectly good reply there by not actually answering the question poised to you.

As for the SWP, they do seem to recruit mainly from the college/uni students and try and take over any agenda without thought to its original protestors. I suppose that is the same with any political party though.

Wilf

Originally posted by royjames
lol sorry Max I can't oblige you there, now if you want to get in to the race debate then you need to re open the BNP thread.

Sorry roy, but I found you electioneering (albeit a bit early) so I just thought I'd add what always seems to be missing from your posts. Yes, let's keep it focused on the swp for whom I have little time, except they did help deliver leaflets rebutting your pathetic claims wherever your nasty little election addresses were found.

So, as a political voice I don't have much truck with the swp but they are useful when it comes to discrediting your little leaflets.

Originally posted by max
Sorry roy, but I found you electioneering (albeit a bit early) so I just thought I'd add what always seems to be missing from your posts. Yes, let's keep it focused on the swp for whom I have little time, except they did help deliver leaflets rebutting your pathetic claims wherever your nasty little election addresses were found.

So, as a political voice I don't have much truck with the swp but they are useful when it comes to discrediting your little leaflets.

My sentiments exactly :lol:

Well I hope they have a lot of activists because next time we will have loads more candidates and activists,shoul'd keep them busy lol.
When you look at the votes we got they did not do such a good job did they?
I seriously dont think they will be able to match us next time when it comes to hitting the streets,they may need to recruit some of their friends in the a f l.
Still this ain't about us so let us keep on track eh.

Originally posted by commie pig
The original Anti-nazi League played a massive role in the defeat of the National Front

You're talking the '70's right?..-Then they kicked the anti-fascists out of the party when it suited them to and that anti-fascism wasn't a membership drive campaign. Said anti-fascists then went on to set up their own organisation effective in prohibiting the NF/BM/BNP et al from organising. Meanwhile the SWP party faithful stood by their tactic of waving lollipops at the "nahrtzees" in the delusion that the lollipop was some kind of magic wand that would make the nasty people disappear

But well done in seeing the light and leaving them to it.

Originally posted by noseyrosie
Yeah...I mean that's the amusing thing above all else. However much the SWP irritate me (one ginger haired buffoon in particular), I'd much rather them than the BNP!

The BNP make the SWP look normal and rational in political terms! Hehe...
I don't know if I would. I don't see what state communism has to offer except to the state itself - at the cost of the people.

And royjames, that terminology for the SWP is probably the only thing you and I will ever agree on.

Originally posted by royjames
Well I hope they have a lot of activists because next time we will have loads more candidates and activists,shoul'd keep them busy lol.
When you look at the votes we got they did not do such a good job did they?

Can't believe I'm supporting them....but...

You numbskull, tons of them don't believe in Socialism within the current political system.

And anyway, as this thread has proved, most left wingers wouldn't touch the SWP with a narrow boat pole anyway - they're hardly representative of the left wing, unlike your party, which seems to accumulate ALL of the Nazi racists in one conglomeration. Well done for that!

Originally posted by royjames
I seriously dont think they will be able to match us next time when it comes to hitting the streets,they may need to recruit some of their friends in the a f l.
Still this ain't about us so let us keep on track eh.

Sure isn't. So stop.

Now nosyrosy let's not start name calling or I may report you and we dont need to do that now do we?
Why is it we can't have a debate without the need to name call or shoul'd I say our opponents need to name call.

I can see the mods shutting this down any day...my view is the SWP are a waste of space and actually distract and discourage people from the left wing - you could say they are almost perfect bnp candidates...in a roundabout way.

God forbid

Numbskull isn't a bad name....it's endearing

Goodness knows why Roy brought the BNP into this discussion. As I see it, the two organisations could not be more different. When you realise that the world is a big bright place that offers you opportunity, you grow out of SWP. When you realise that the world is bigger and brighter than you, and offers others opportunity, you hide behind the BNP. Diametrically opposed, yet so similar.

Originally posted by BrainThrust
As for the SWP, they do seem to recruit mainly from the college/uni students...
Originally posted by Squiggs
Then they kicked the anti-fascists out of the party when it suited them to and that anti-fascism wasn't a membership drive campaign.
bot these are verytrue. IN the late seventies/early eighties the SWp developed what they called 'downturn theory' - the idea that unlike in the sixites and early seventies, the working-class was in retreat, and was set for a long period of defeats (which did turn out to be true). Therefore they closed down all their campaigning groups of the time (ANL, rank & file trade union groups) and turned to holding the party together, with a particular emphasis on theory. That led them to expelling those who wanted to carry on with things like anti-fascist activities, and to recruiting lots of (well, comparatively) students who like the arguing about stuff (and being radical).

By doing that they lost a lot of their earlier 'blue collar' support and the membership turned into one that mainly works in professional type industries (teachers social workers voluntary sector jobs). Although that was quite succesful for them (they probably did have over ten thousand members in the early nineties), it also led them to adopting a very patronising version of socialism and view of most of the working-class. Hence they've actually become rather liberal these days. (Oh, and very SHOUTY, especially ones with ginger curly hair!)

Well, it was that and the whole concept of 'vanguardism'.

In vague defense of them tho, they were the only party that was out actively supporting the bus strikers. Some Labour members did, as did some smaller left groups, anarchists and other individuals, but only one party.

Originally posted by commie pig


In vague defense of them tho, they were the only party that was out actively supporting the bus strikers. Some Labour members did, as did some smaller left groups, anarchists and other individuals, but only one party.

...only because they still think that the revolution will start with the TUC calling a general strike :loopy:

Originally posted by Squiggs
...only because they still think that the revolution will start with the TUC calling a general strike :loopy:
no, no, no, it will happen when the TUC refuse their demand for a general strike.

Originally posted by royjames
For gods sake get it out into the open you know you will feel all the better for it.
Seriously the SWP are NOT the answer to the working class,we are the only option for them.
Besides when has a marxist regime ever done anything good for the people,and dont say castro because cuba is in a right mess.

So the facists created a more caring sharing friendly environment did they?

Oh hang on, nooo... they were the ones that deported everyone that wasn't 'like them' and were responsible for +20 million deaths.

Silly me :loopy:

(agree about the maxists though :P)

Yup, the Fascists in the various forms - Hitler, Mussolini, Franco - caused a lot of deaths. I'm assuming teh 20 millions there includes the war dead and the dead from Mussolini's and Franco's relatively small camps as well as the 6 million who died in the Nazi camps?

And the Soviets did their fair share. And as the Soviet Union was the world's major state run by Marxist Ideologues for 70 years, I guess we can mention their statistics here.

In her book 'Gulag', Anne Applebaum estimates about 28 millions passed through the Soviet camp systems between the 1930s and 1953. This includes people in the forced labour camps, administrative exiles, any catageory of people who had their collar felt by the NKVD. Of these a conservative estimate of teh dead is about 2 million. However, this doesn't include people who died as a result of the camps - like people left to starve because the breadwinner was arrested and deported or because as 'relatives of enemies of the state' people couldn't get rations. Other figures as high as 10 or 20 miliions have been cited, but not really backed up.

There's also the fracturing of society that happens when you uproot millions and move them 4 thousand miles to build a village in the tundra....

The destruction of the intelligentsia and potential 'ruling classes' of countries like Poland.....

And the joys of Soviet psychiatry......

Nope, the Fascists couldn't teach the Marxists anything about sweeping up people they didn't agree with.

Marxism, Fascism....blind faith in anyone else's -isms is likely to get you killed.

Joe

Originally posted by Tony

(agree about the maxists though :P)

Hurrah, my own followers. :clap: Where and when do they meet?

I have to say it YAY FOR JOE!!!!!!!

Let yourself be blinded by ideology (and it doesnt matter which particular ideology - the victims of Hitler and Stalin were just as dead as each other) and you, and the world, are in trouble...

in another vague defence of the SWP ..... one of the reasons I joined (and many othgers did too) was because of their complete and utter rejection of Stalinism, and their vocal opposition to it. The theory of 'state capitalism' explained pretty clearly how Stalin had executed a reversal of many of the principals of both Marx and even Lenin to create a society that was not only not working in the interests of the working-class, but was doing precisely the opposite, and creating a new ruling-class on the backs of those workers. It was a complete reversal of the idea's of marxism - which are based upon a strong and politically active class, not one subserviant to 'the party'.

btw Joe - its reckoned around 13 million dies in the concentration camps - 5-6 million jews, along with 6-8 million commnists, socialists, trades unionists, lesbians gays, disabled, jehovahs, 'criminals', the mentally ill, etc etc.

Originally posted by max
Hurrah, my own followers. :clap: Where and when do they meet?
Oooo ! A Freudian slip? :P

Originally posted by commie pig

btw Joe - its reckoned around 13 million dies in the concentration camps - 5-6 million jews, along with 6-8 million commnists, socialists, trades unionists, lesbians gays, disabled, jehovahs, 'criminals', the mentally ill, etc etc.

Thanks - my mind is sort of fuller of Gulag at the moment than the similar stuff about the Nazis. No excuse for me not checking my facts!

Joe

Woul'd I be right in saying that the SWP poll quite well in Scotland,think I read somewhere they got more votes than we did

...that would be the SNP wouldn't it?

amd
Originally posted by JoePritchard


Marxism, Fascism....blind faith in anyone else's -isms is likely to get you killed.

Joe
blind faith is always an idiocy...but marxism is too broad a term. My politics have never even come close to those of the SWP or the other well-known "marxist" parties, yet "capital" is still a text worth reading.

The difference I think is in the interpretation of Marx's ideas - not that I consider him to be 100% correct - and of course the fact that capitalism is adept at evolving to it's current climate. Dogmatic following of an old text is erroneous because of the strict refusal to adapt to modern circumstances. But bearing that in mind, some ideas can still be adapted and applied.

No Squiggs I meant the SWP the left seem to do quite well in scotland .

sorry, alcohol induced error, I meant the SSP.

who the SWP have joined with to combine the trot votes.

Originally posted by Tony
Oooo ! A Freudian slip? :P
And I thought we were still talking about groucho

Originally posted by Squiggs
sorry, alcohol induced error, I meant the SSP.

who the SWP have joined with to combine the trot votes.
not that trottish the SSP these days, despite being set up by ex-members of the Militant. Norway & Hugo Chavez are there great heroes currently!

I suppose we're quite lucky that we live in a moderate democacy, where neither extreme has managed to get much of a foothold.