I've just read an interesting comparison in another thread where a fellow forummer was relating a story about how a family photograph taken in a park in 80 bears no resemblance to now.
Also some one else recently mentioned that She abolished Sheffield!
I personally remember Sheffield as being a pioneering CITY ON THE MOVE to me it nosed dived with South Yorkshire in the early eighties, only now is it beginning to hold it's own again!
Did Thatcher slaughter the confidence and expectations of the innocents that were growing up within this city, it's future citizens and leaders, along with the industry around and in it!
Or was it just one of those things

I think I know the she you are on about and although quite young Im sure industry was well in decline before she came along. British Leyland, British Steel, British Coal ,check out some of the union leaders for a change. Instead of everyone harping on about Tory this and Tory that, as I said to an ex collier who worked at Dinnington who had the house reposessed and who lives in a big house with a lovely garden and never really worked in his life anyway. Dont even get me on the subject of those dedicated socialists the Kinnoks who seem to have got the whole familly working in Brussels.

Dragon

Originally posted by dragonsoup
Dont even get me on the subject of those dedicated socialists the Kinnoks who seem to have got the whole familly working in Brussels.

Dragon Not now Peter is taking over ;)

Yes, Kinnock was supposed to be weeding out corruption.

In fact he was more concerned with sacking those who exposed it.

Hey, i'm not saying that unions were innocent and they get less so with time but still!?

Maybe SHE did oversee the death of the socialist dream in the 80s and understandably there was depression (in every sense) to follow. Sad that this relative 'up' seems purely material, quite superficial - and built on even GREATER social inequalities than ever!!!!

I'll TRY not to sound melodramatic BUT....did you guys FORGET that the 'workers' LOST, hey I know poverty is harder to see these days through credit facades but....!?

She not only ruined Sheffield but the whole country and society as we knew it.

Originally posted by Lickszz
Yes, Kinnock was supposed to be weeding out corruption.

In fact he was more concerned with sacking those who exposed it.

He got rid of Millitant Tendancy from the Labour Party so he can't have been all that bad.

Originally posted by andyb
She not only ruined Sheffield but the whole country and society as we knew it.

That is exactly how I see it.

I will go out on the drink celebrating for days when that witch dies. She destroyed this country.

Originally posted by Whelk
That is exactly how I see it.

I will go out on the drink celebrating for days when that witch dies. She destroyed this country.

I'll join you in the pub when that day comes. :thumbsup:

Mojo, Whelk,

re that celebration...

Make sure, when that day comes, you get me a pint in, 'cos I definitely intend joining you, in raising a glass to thank the "old fella who carries a scythe and an hour-glass"... (for once, IMO, it'd be a job-well-done!)

;)

PT

I think on the whole she did a lot of good.

Why do people have such a longing for dirty old industries like steel making and coal mining. It is Sheffield's over relience on these that has made it such a working class city. We should aim to be much more middle class and be glad to see the back of the old ways.

Originally posted by andyb
She not only ruined Sheffield but the whole country and society as we knew it.
The only thing she ruined was the gravy train that a minority of people enjoyed at the expense of the rest of the country.

Have you noticed that “New Labour” hasn’t repealed the union reform legislation introduced by Thatcher?

Why is it that “New Labour” was elected in 1997 with a manifesto that didn’t contain the word “socialism”?

The discredited philosophy of socialism was killed by Thatcher and some people will never forgive her for that. They’ll never admit it but the politicians of today, by not reversing what she did, are confirming that she was right.

You’re 30 years out of date.

Big city, pit village mentality. No wonder Sheffield lags so far behind the rest of the country.

Thatcher did what she had to do at the time and did it well. You only need to look at the state of the economy when she took over in 1979 and compare it with the economy in 1990 when she resigned to see this. Her legacy has been the foundation on which our thriving economy is built on.

Originally posted by Taz78
Hey, i'm not saying that unions were innocent and they get less so with time but still!?

Maybe SHE did oversee the death of the socialist dream in the 80s and understandably there was depression (in every sense) to follow. Sad that this relative 'up' seems purely material, quite superficial - and built on even GREATER social inequalities than ever!!!!

I'll TRY not to sound melodramatic BUT....did you guys FORGET that the 'workers' LOST, hey I know poverty is harder to see these days through credit facades but....!?

I am a worker and I dont think I lost out in the 80s, far from it. As far as Im concerned it cleared out a lot of the lazy so and sos that only had to turn up to work to get paid and not even turn up most of the time! Before you lentil munchers start putting the boot in Ive lived right in the heart of the steelmaking area and most of the males in my familly worked in that industry and the women usually in cutlery firms.
I know a person who worked at Brown Baileys who knew how to shut down the rolling mills mid shift if they were fed up and wanted to go for a pint (was shocked how simple it was). That same person will blame M. Thatcher for closing down everything when he could do 100s of thousands of pounds worth of damage in a few seconds.
Get it into your head that the world doesnt owe you a living and you might make some progress.
As for the people who will have a party when Margaret Thatcher dies, you really are choking on your own vomit.

Dragon

Originally posted by slimsid2000
I think on the whole she did a lot of good.

Why do people have such a longing for dirty old industries like steel making and coal mining. It is Sheffield's over relience on these that has made it such a working class city. We should aim to be much more middle class and be glad to see the back of the old ways.


Maggie Thatcher wasn't middle class. Her daddy was a corner shop grocer...a working class bloke working for himself. She plainly despises the working class, perhaps for that very reason.

These days I think most people earning £35k a year and up convince themselves they are middle class, and for all I know they could be right. The old qualifications of good manners, education and cultural background don't seem to count any longer, it's just a matter of disposable income.

Originally posted by Greybeard
The old qualifications of good manners, education and cultural background don't seem to count any longer, it's just a matter of disposable income.

I disagree. Just look at footballers for a start. Middle class? Don't think so.

Maggie was certainly in the short term bad for Sheffield. I remember growing up and seeing the factories in the Lower Don Valley disappear gradually and the men on the estate becoming more numerous as unemployment grew.
However, what she did is made us all realise that we are responsible for our own fates. It has its down sides, but the British are much more self-sufficient (in resourcefullness, economic activity) than they ever were.

Sheffield now is far better, far cleaner, far more prosperous than it ever has been. And the reason for that lies in the reforms Thatcher started. They are maybe only just coming to fruition, but they have changed the country, and the city, for the better. And for those who have not profited, it isn't because they didn't have the choice...

I'm no Tory, but in hindsight I think she was a good thing. How about renaming Fargate "Thatcher Gate" in her honour?

I think on the whole she did a lot of good.

Why do people have such a longing for dirty old industries like steel making and coal mining. It is Sheffield's over relience on these that has made it such a working class city. We should aim to be much more middle class and be glad to see the back of the old ways.

Big city, pit village mentality. No wonder Sheffield lags so far behind the rest of the country.

Thatcher did what she had to do at the time and did it well. You only need to look at the state of the economy when she took over in 1979 and compare it with the economy in 1990 when she resigned to see this. Her legacy has been the foundation on which our thriving economy is built on.

Points of view so much more realisitic than the usual complaining, and regret of a life style that was to be fair killing.

'Oh yeah I love working down a mine or near a furniss'

Regeneration means better jobs... Better paid, and there are enough jobs for quite a few more !

Aleas jacta es

Hi Folks

So, some folks thing that by changing jobs, it can make us middle class?

If it could though, would I become a better person for turning from working class to middle class?

I would still be the same person!

Unfortunately, you have made the age old mistake of mixing class with status, the two although go hand in hand, the higher the social scale, the more money you more than likely have, it does not mean, that by earning more, you automatically jump class distinction!

Bernard Mathews, the Turkey Burger king , has one of the grandest period homes privately owed in the country, even the interior is in keeping with the period of the building, flash cars, well heeled, BUT HE IS STILL WORKING CLASS!

He works for a living, has a poor education, and is not that ofay wqith the English lauguage and gramma.

His status is high, in other words he is rich, but this does not instill Class in him!

Now, lets give an example of a King, extreme class status, but what if he was locked up in prison, he would have no status whatsoever, but still he would be a king, so his status remains intact!

Class comes from culture, intelligence, social background, you are born into class, but can also instill class into your children, by giving them an education, taking them to the Theatre, promoting academia, rather than a trade. If thats what you want!

On a personal note, its the dirty steel industry that made us a world leader in steel, in manufacturing, was it not invented here in Sheffield?

It was invented in 1912, at the research laboratory of Brown-Firth, Sheffield, England by Harry Brearley. He had been investigating ways to reduce corrosion in gun barrels, when it was noticed that a discarded sample was not rusting.

Benjamin Huntsman, who operated a foundry at Handsworth, four miles to the east of Sheffield, invented the crucible steel process. (See From blister steel to crucible steel.) Huntsman's invention made it possible to produce much harder, high-quality steel in large quantities. The crucible steel process helped to increase production in Sheffield from no more than 200 tons of steel a year under the old method to more than 20,000 tons, or 40% of total European steel production, a century later.

A Sheffield cutler, Thomas Boulsover, devised a means of fusing a thin layer of silver to copper to produce silver plate the famous 'Sheffield Plate' that looked like silver but was far cheaper, and was to take silver-plated cutlery into the dining rooms of almost every middle class family in the land.

Not bad for people with a worthless pit village mentality, who was of working class background and probably longed for regeneration of the Don valley? LOL

Are not Surgical needles made of Stainless steel, or surgical wire made of stainless steel, or hip replacements, the list is endless!

This only covers a small area relating to the steel industry!

I agree that some of the companies may have been run badly, bad mis-mangement, but this happens in the modern day equivalents too!

Was it not the UK that invented the Hovercraft, the jet engine, the microchip!

Funny old thing, that microchip, that hovercraft, the jet engine, never got the real support they derserved from the goverment.

Take one of these, the microchip, had patents been inforced for these and money put behind such a wonderful invention, we may own a global company that could have been British owed, generating massive Revenues for this country, Think of Microsoft or Apple, thewy would have all been paying a royalty!

These are just a small handful of ideas that have gone abroad, our country to reluctant to back its people, a nation of inventors, visionaries, hard workers, who came from all social backgrounds!

We are losing our nation to cheap imports, why, not because of cheap Labour, but reluctance of our goverment to give massive research and development incentives to innovative companies. Like massive tax relief on new equipment etc. The Labour goverment has just introduced some of these much needed sources of savings for such companies, which I applaud them for, and hope the next new goverment in power follows through.

Capitalism cannot work the way it is at the moment, we have become a nation of Service industries, Fast food chains, Gyms, furniture stores, DIY stores, phoneline call services, it is Innovation that fuels new growth in an economy, not service industries, whos paying for all these goods, the people are, we are fueling these industries, with Loans for goods that we simply cannot afford on borrowed money, the more we borrow, the wealthier the country appears, oh, lets inflate the property market too, its a serious matter if a stockholder falsely advertises that stock is going to go up, in order to create invenstment in a company, but its fine for the Estate agents, the building societies to carry on lying on TV and create a false picture of the housing market, to fuel their profits. Oh, who pays for it again, we do!
Take your blinkers off folks, for it is quite easy to see what is coming our way, a massive recession!

The borrowing will level out soon, the country will have a saturation of goods we do not want, or possibly can afford, and what jobs will we be in,

I would rather travel back in time and be a dirty Steel worker in its heyday, than a Mcdonalds boy now, thats for sure!

People forget, unemployment was at one of its highest peaks when Thatcher was in power!

Its ashame, people dont look at the amount of money as a proportion spent on weapons, although I know we need an Army, its an obscene amount that goes on the military every year, ignore the calls of cutbacks, its the investment figures you want to know, compared to the amount spent in other public areas.

To those out there wanting class, educate yourselves, Develop your own culture, learn how to hold a conversation, but above all else, be happy!

The only people I have met wanting class, is people with a low opinion of themselves, on the other hand, people who are proud of themselves, no matter what level of accomplishment they have achieved, don't seem to care too much!

Only innovation can create wealth in a capitalist society, new ideas create new commercial markets, need new production plants, etc! It supports people in all areas of skills, engineers, accountants, bankers, semi skilled, etc.

If our industry totally goes, will be relying on other countries, because the skills that only some of us have left, will die with our countries anti-productivity.

We are buying steel from India and Pakistan at the moment!

We need our production plants subsidizing, especially where reserch & development is needed in order to increase productivity!

I recently went a company in Sheffield, that was operating quite successfully and turning a massive amonut of profit over every month, sold to a Japanese company(No idea why), alot of the work is done by Robots(And there is staff involved), our goverment could aquire such profitable companies, and keep the profits in this country!

I am wanting to set up producing in this country shortly myself, manufacturing a product, but still in two minds to desert the sinking ship and try my luck abroad, yet I know I have a definate winner.

The problem is, will I be able to find any of these folk that have a pit village like mentality, or of working class persona to fill the positions?

Some of the cleverest people I have have met have strangely come from these backgrounds, I wonder if Scarlets prose above bears any weight on the REAL world?



I am not going to make a distinction on the different bills Thatcher introduced into this country, and say catorgorically they was all wrong, or they was all right, but will say some of them were right, some were wrong, but she will always have blood on her hands, its the way it was handled, not the result she got, A bolt fired through the centre of the skull of the miners, could have been a little more humane, like phasing out the pits slowly, so people could find alternatives to support their families. What would you do if you knew suddenly your job was not only going to go, but masses of other will be joining you, saturating the job market, making it impossible to find another job, your poor children not having Christmas presents, tears in their eyes, asking why Daddy?

I was only 16 at the time, but remember it well.

I wonder if Mcdonalds, Wickes, B&Q closed down, people would fight with such vigour and passion to keep their jobs and show their want to support their families.

Nope, it just would not have the same Love
behind it, Ive just got that feeling~

Probably because most of them are single and don't have families, can't afford a family.

Them folks from them pits .. . . . .. ..

I admire their mentality, its make them human ;-)

Regards

Mark. .

Sorry Howy, but (IMO) you're wrong.

All those things you extol the virtue of are things of the past. Silver Plate? So what? It doesn't put food on the table, build new homes, repair the road, etc, etc.

It has it's place in history of course, but it's the FUTURE we need to think about. The past can give us context, but it should not make us myopic.

Do we aspire to cholrea and ricketts too? Steam engines were great at the time, but do you want one in your workplace or car? Of course not.

If people want to be thought of as middle class, then so what? If it makes them aspirational that surely is a good thing?

I went on all the marches, you know 'Maggie Maggie Maggie out out out' , attended the rallies bought the mug etc etc. I hated the woman and all she stood for but looking back I wonder if she was so wrong.

I know men in the mining industry who took huge redundancy payments and set up their own businesses and they have never looked back. They are thriving, which wouldn't have happened had but for Maggie Thatcher. They may have been the lucky ones but for them it was beneficial.

As far as communities went the news wasn't so good. Villages literally crumbled the day that their pit was closed.

Though lets not forget and here I am talking to all of you soft centred Labourites............Mr Blair hold MT in very high esteem and makes no secret of the fact that he admires her.

Who knows if she hadn't been a job snatcher in the 80's he probably would have done a similar job in the 90's.

Originally posted by t020
I disagree. Just look at footballers for a start. Middle class? Don't think so.

Oh please don't encourage the class thing again. This has been done to death on other threads ans always ands up like asylum or bnp threads just going round and round in circles. :nono:

I think that Mrs T's main problem was her 'theres no such thing as society' mentality, which will in the long term do FAR more damage to the UK than shutting down heavy industry. Still I have to admit at least some grudging respect for the woman - I have more respect for an honest b*stard than a slimy, coniving, two faced weasel!

Originally posted by Tony
Sorry Howy, but (IMO) you're wrong.

All those things you extol the virtue of are things of the past. Silver Plate? So what? It doesn't put food on the table, build new homes, repair the road, etc, etc.

I don't think that's the point Howy's trying to make, all he's saying is that by somebody being innovative, (it doesn't matter when) not only can it possibly make a single person or group wealthy, it can also create an industry, where of course, lots of people are employed. So wouldn't it be a good idea for a government to back these kind of ideas, whether it be tories, labour or whatever.

With regard to the thread, I despise MT and I always will. In some ways, some of the things that happened when she was in power were inevitable, and I'll not "blame" her for that. But some people suffered and MT and her government did little to help those, that through no fault of their own, found themselves unemployed. Some people benefitted through large redundancy packages, but these were mainly middle aged people and people due to retire. Young people had the hardest time, because if they were in a job and then layed off, there wouldn't be much redundancy for them due to not being in the job that long, and for people already unemployed, (I was one of them in the early eighties!) finding work was a nightmare.

The problem I have with some people, is this "Pit Village Mentality" accusation. This is just pure snobbery and arrogance. And this is one of the main reasons, for me, for disliking MT. Her attitude to working class people was and is terrible, and reaked of snobbery and arrogance. Yuuuuuuuuuuuukkkkkkk!!!!!!!! :mad:

Originally posted by mojoworking
I'll join you in the pub when that day comes. :thumbsup:

I think the best thing all round would be a huge street party. I don't think we've got long to wait before that beautiful day arrives when Mrs T finally departs ...

There's a huge difference between natural social/economic evolution and smashing an entire industry and destroying the lives of thousands of families at a stroke.

Thatcher did the latter partly because she was in thrall to the American economic gurus who were whispering sweet nothings in her ear at the time and partly to crush the unions once and for all and therefore teach the working class a lesson.

Even her own colleagues in the Tory party thought she'd gone too far with her industrial reform policies.

Sheffield may have recovered and be thriving now, but the same results could have been achieved more slowly and with more compassion without destroying entire communities along the way. A more compassionate leader would have realised that.

That's why so many people still hate Thatcher and all she stood for to this day. When she finally pops her clogs there'll be a line of people the length of the Moor queuing up to p*ss on her grave. I'll be proud to be one of them.

Originally posted by mojoworking
When she finally pops her clogs there'll be a line of people the length of the Moor queuing up to p*ss on her grave. I'll be proud to be one of them.

That's all you CAN do isn't it? :loopy:

t020 hit the nail on the head with the pit village comment.... :D

Originally posted by InvalidUser
That's all you CAN do isn't it? :loopy:


Too cryptic, I'm afraid. Your point (if indeed you had one) is lost ;)