...why not bring back capital punishment?

Quicker, cheaper, and will free up space for new scrotes to get sent down.

Or hey, if we carbon freeze them like they did Han Solo in Empire Strikes Back, then we can store them side by side and stack them up in a warehouse somewhere...

That way, if they're proven innocent at any point in the future, we can thaw them out.

Discuss...

I would like to say bring back capital punishment, and also let prisoners live like animals. Put several in one little cell!!

We're not allowed to bring back capital punishment; it's no longer an option, even if the government of the day wanted to do it.

The answer to prison overcrowding is to not send so many people to jail.

Debate over.

ayethangee!!

The answer to prison overcrowding is to not send so many people to jail.

Debate over.

ayethangee!!The answer to prison overcrowding is to have more jails.

Debate over.

they send people to prison for failing to pay fines

if the "crime" they committed in the first place did not warrant sending them to prison why send them to prison for failing to pay.

Prison is supposed to rehabiltate it the prison service did do this. they dont by the way, the aim of the prison service is to keep prisoners locked up each day for twenty three hours a day with just one excercise.

the only prisons that do try are the private prisons The goverment run ones are completely useless and until something is done about it the prisons will be 95% full with repeat offenders.

the goverment run prisons are there to contain the inmates until the release date and 99% recieve no help with reoffending at all 75% of them dont even get a job to do in prison.

And the most important contary to what you read they actually condone and in some cases actively assist in the supply of drugs to prisoners just to keep the place easier to run.
At 8.30 at night in any long term prison in england the inmates are given copius quantities of prescription drugs for no other reason than to keep them
quite through the night and for no medical reason they are dished out willy nilly to anyone who asks for a dose.
IT is the way things are if you all knew what went of in prisons you would not belieive it.

the prisons will be 95% full with repeat offenders.

Fine - build more prisons and introduce "3 strikes and out".

Keep the scum away from me and mine.

they send people to prison for failing to pay fines

if the "crime" they committed in the first place did not warrant sending them to prison why send them to prison for failing to pay.



Er, what?

So anyone who is convicted of a non-custodial sentence can just say "********, I'm not paying the fine" and that's it, they're free as a bird? I don't think so, somehow.

the prisons will be 95% full with repeat offenders.

You mean like the streets are now? :huh:

they send people to prison for failing to pay fines

if the "crime" they committed in the first place did not warrant sending them to prison why send them to prison for failing to pay.

They are imprisoned for the crime of failing to pay the fine, not the original crime.

The trouble with the prisons is that persistant offenders don't mind being there and so they go back time and time again and so it's not got to stage where prisons are full of people who have been there before. If prison worked as a deterrant, theoretically there wouldn't be any repeat offenders and inmates would be learning how not to get themselves in there again.

I think that being in prison should be absolute hell and that a person who commits a crime which involves them losing their liberty means thay also lose some of their human rights with brief respites where it was explained why that has happened to them .

Er, what?

So anyone who is convicted of a non-custodial sentence can just say "********, I'm not paying the fine" and that's it, they're free as a bird? I don't think so, somehow.

NEVER SAID THAT but sending minor offenders to prison is not helping the situation is it another method should be sought to deal with this problem.

18000 people are in prison at any one time for failing to pay fines
council tax
television licence
parking fines
and so on


lets think of a different method and there is room for the real criminals

You mean like the streets are now? :huh:


we cant have it both ways can we

NEVER SAID THAT but sending minor offenders to prison is not helping the situation is it another method should be sought to deal with this problem.

18000 people are in prison at any one time for failing to pay fines
council tax
television licence
parking fines
and so on


lets think of a different method and there is room for the real criminalsWhere have you got that figure from? Looks like nonsense to me.

i have been involved within the prison system and i have to say it is a cushty number for prisoners. it may not be like home but for most young lads its a ball. they get fed, live with a lot of other like minded blokes and often think its just a laugh.
it is not a case of building more prisons or letting lesser criminals "off" .the whole system has to be looked at and changed!!!
prison as it is now is not a deterant for criminals as there are too many dogooders playing their human rights card.

Why not find the lousiest city or town in UK and turn into a Kirk Russell Escape from New York stylee prison. Anyone convicted is chucked over the wall and it all boils down to survival of the fittest and no one gets out either!!

Where have you got that figure from? Looks like nonsense to me.

its the complete facts 18000 out of 60 million is a small percentage and the figure should not matter they should not be in prison in the first place prison is a place for criminals not people who failed to pay fines for trivial offences

we cant have it both ways can we
We could if prison was a big enough detterent.

We could if prison was a big enough detterent.

exactlY..........

We could if prison was a big enough detterent.

Problem with that thinking is that it's already been done. Prison was hell back in victorian times and before. Remember the good old days when people had their hands cut off for stealing bread etc? There was still no shortage of criminals then.

Using fear as a deterrent doesn't work - if it did why are there still so many murders in America when the criminals know they will be for the chair?

Fear didn't work in the past, and it doesn't work now.

its the complete facts 18000 out of 60 million is a small percentage and the figure should not matter they should not be in prison in the first place prison is a place for criminals not people who failed to pay fines for trivial offencesYou said that 18000 were in for not paying fines. parking etc not the overall figure. Read your own post and maybe change your name on here. I would dispute that anyone is in prison for parking fines.

Using fear as a deterrent doesn't work -

Well using Sky TV and snooker tables dos'nt either.

Well using Sky TV and snooker tables dos'nt either.

When I did suggest prison should be a holiday camp?
I'm sure there's more options than HELL/HOLIDAY CAMP.

Using fear as a deterrent doesn't work - if it did why are there still so many murders in America when the criminals know they will be for the chair?

Fear didn't work in the past, and it doesn't work now.It wouldn't deter everyone but I think that it would deter a lot of the cowardly thick young scrotes who commit continuous crimes such as burglary and mugging. I have been in courts and the majority of people I've seen sent down are short sentences for nasty little crimes. Those people would probably respond better to short sharp shock treatment.

I'm sure there's more options than HELL/HOLIDAY CAMP.
Go one Then.



<<<<<<< Vike listens intently.

You said that 18000 were in for not paying fines. parking etc not the overall figure. Read your own post and maybe change your name on here. I would dispute that anyone is in prison for parking fines.

If you persistenly refuse to pay a fine albeit for any reason and the magistrates believe you have the means to pay the you will be committed to prison ie for failing to conform to a court order I doubt myself wether they are many in for failing to pay a parking fine but it is an option and I have no doubt there are some. and just remember I may not always be right but I am never wrong

Go one Then.



<<<<<<< Vike listens intently.

Arf! Walked into that :D

Not pretending to know all the answers, but to me, it seems that to take a criminal and throw them into a regime where they are treated like animals for 5 years and them chuck them back on the streets isn't going to solve anything.

Surely the time behind bars could be spent constructivley? Ie not sky and pool tables, but preparing soemone to become a constructive member of society. Skills, trade etc, value of good work.

I think people should be punished, and should be removed from society if they break it's rules - but I think it's wrong to assume that a stint in "hell" will make them functioning members of society once said stint is over.

I think people should be punished,
Course they should.
I think all the easy answers have been looked for over the years.

It wouldn't deter everyone but I think that it would deter a lot of the cowardly thick young scrotes who commit continuous crimes such as burglary and mugging. I have been in courts and the majority of people I've seen sent down are short sentences for nasty little crimes. Those people would probably respond better to short sharp shock treatment.

Yeah, I see your point - but I think it doesn't work to just treat someone like a sub-human for a while and expect them to return to the streets a better person.
Unless you're talking about something the boot camp idea in America? Don't know much about it, but to me it seems more productive than locking up young teenagers with career criminals.

Course they should.
I think all the easy answers have been looked for over the years.

Come on! What about the rest of my post? Agree or disagree?

Arf! Walked into that :D


Surely the time behind bars could be spent constructivley? Ie not sky and pool tables, but preparing soemone to become a constructive member of society. Skills, trade etc, value of good work.

I think people should be punished, and should be removed from society if they break it's rules - but I think it's wrong to assume that a stint in "hell" will make them functioning members of society once said stint is over.The people should have hell as punishment, not all criminals need rehabilitation, some just need punishment. If someone is in there for a few months now they don't have time to learn a skill and it's not obligatory anyway. After their spell in hell and having reflected upon the consequences of their crime they should be released on condition that they have some form of rehabilitation depending on their situation and the nature of the crime but step out of line and they back in hell again.

The people should have hell as punishment, not all criminals need rehabilitation, some just need punishment. If someone is in there for a few months now they don't have time to learn a skill and it's not obligatory anyway. After their spell in hell and having reflected upon the consequences of their crime they should be released on condition that they have some form of rehabilitation depending on their situation and the nature of the crime but step out of line and they back in hell again.

Ok, a few different ways of looking at it - but yes, punishment and rehab should play an equal part. Without education or any way for people to fit back into society then the situation isn't going to improve, you're going to get re-offenders.

And yes, some people can't be rehabilitated.

prisoners should not be allowed social time with other prisoners.
prison is a school of crime!!
as 86% of prisoners will reoffend then obviously the prison system as it is now is failing!

Come on! What about the rest of my post? Agree or disagree?
I disagree then.
Punishment should mean punishment.

If my lad steps out of line, I dont take him to the KFC and buy him a new playstation.

I disagree then.
Punishment should mean punishment.

If my lad steps out of line, I dont take him to the KFC and buy him a new playstation.

Will you quit with this "pool table, kfc, playstation" lark! Where have I ever said that they should be rewarded??

I don't think prison should be a holiday camp, I don't think it should be a palce to have fun and socialise, I don't think people should be having a laugh or wahtever other fun you think I want prisioners to have!

They should be working very hard, physically and mentally, they should be made to understand what they have done, they should be prepared as eligible members of society so as to decrease the chances of reoffending.

Ok, a few different ways of looking at it - but yes, punishment and rehab should play an equal part. Without education or any way for people to fit back into society then the situation isn't going to improve, you're going to get re-offenders.

And yes, some people can't be rehabilitated.Some can't be rehabilitated and they may well be habitual offenders and so they need very harsh treatment but there are some people there who don't need rehabilitating because they are unlikely to offend again and they are probably those who have committed a crime which requires some intelligence such as fraud. They need such a nasty punishment that they don't want to repeat it. Someone such as Jeffrey Archer is unlikely to risk going back to prison t*** tho he is.

Will you quit with this "pool table, kfc, playstation" lark!


Gymnasium, Sauna, Topless barmaids. :hihi:

Gymnasium, Sauna, Topless barmaids. :hihi:

In all seriousness, a mock beach with imported Barbados sand and a hard stint of tequila drinking should sort them out. :)

In all seriousness, a mock beach with imported Barbados sand and a hard stint of tequila drinking should sort them out. :)
If that happened, I'd smash me own windows. :hihi:

Couldn’t give a stuff what conditions are like inside. If it’s bad, tough. Your actions got you there.

If there aren’t enough jails, build more. OK a few more pence on the tax bill, but with more crims locked away, a few pence off the car and house insurance. Potentially safer streets….

One concession I would make. Let ‘em have Burberry check uniforms.

Here's one extra prisoner.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1236734,00.html

The answer to prison overcrowding is to not send so many people to jail.

Debate over.

ayethangee!!Oh the sadness of the limited mind. I doubt you could define 'debate'.

Perhaps we should just let the persistent criminals, the repeat offenders, the antisocial underclasses of society who cause misery for innocents and the vulnerable, loose to cause havoc as and when they choose.

We already have pitifully short jail terms in this country for serious offences. We let scum back out onto the streets all the time.

What we need is more jail space. Not more jails necessarily, or larger ones, but room for more criminals in them.

Let them crowd into tiny cells, let them suffer with 3-high bunks and a bucket in the corner. Jail should be unpleasant, to the extent that they really don’t want to go back again.

Above all our courts should never, ever, be swayed away from custodial sentences because there’s insufficient room in the jails. That’s a crime in itself.

Oh the sadness of the limited mind. I doubt you could define 'debate'.

Perhaps we should just let the persistent criminals, the repeat offenders, the antisocial underclasses of society who cause misery for innocents and the vulnerable, loose to cause havoc as and when they choose.

We already have pitifully short jail terms in this country for serious offences. We let scum back out onto the streets all the time.

What we need is more jail space. Not more jails necessarily, or larger ones, but room for more criminals in them.

Let them crowd into tiny cells, let them suffer with 3-high bunks and a bucket in the corner. Jail should be unpleasant, to the extent that they really don’t want to go back again.

Above all our courts should never, ever, be swayed away from custodial sentences because there’s insufficient room in the jails. That’s a crime in itself.
You were born in the wrong century really Bartfarst. Mind you even Dickens would have had a job on rendering your character even remotely sympathetically.

We're not allowed to bring back capital punishment; it's no longer an option, even if the government of the day wanted to do it.
so if i was a vigliante murder working on behalf of the people of this country, it would be safe to say i wouldnt face capital punishment. But would i still get my £47?

You were born in the wrong century really Bartfarst. Mind you even Dickens would have had a job on rendering your character even remotely sympathetically.
For once Halibut I will try to understand the world from your perspective - I suspect I will find this very difficult, but I'm in a buoyant, philosophical and reflective mood having just had a really good result in nitrous injecting a engine that gave really good results, so I'll listen with an open mind.

Please answer me two questions:

How do you propose we protect the victims of crime from re-offending criminals?

Do you believe that the criminals should have rights equal to their victims?

The first one. By treating our criminals in such a fashion that we minimise the risk of reoffending - and in some cases that might mean locking them up indefinitely.

The second one. No, criminals should in certain circumstances lose their right to liberty until it can be proven that they are able to behave resonsibly. I belive however that we should treat prisoners humanely and with respect, that they should have access to services which have been shown to reduce the risk of re-offending - education, literacy, realistic prospects for employnment, treatment for mental illness and drug addiction, good relationships with family etc.

Treating people like animals tends to make them behave like animals.

The first one. By treating our criminals in such a fashion that we minimise the risk of reoffending - and in some cases that might mean locking them up indefinitely.
The second one. No, criminals should in certain circumstances lose their right to liberty until it can be proven that they are able to behave resonsibly. I belive however that we should treat prisoners humanely and with respect, that they should have access to services which have been shown to reduce the risk of re-offending - education, literacy, realistic prospects for employnment, treatment for mental illness and drug addiction, good relationships with family etc.
Treating people like animals tends to make them behave like animals.
Mmmm - I don't wholly disagree with what you say, but there's a difference between providing conditions that may reduce re-offending and just letting them loose.
Given the choice between overcrowding and no sentence at all, the answer has to be overcrowding.

I would take issue with them being deserving of respect though - they are not. They are criminals, and deserve no respect until they earn it through acceptable behaviour and a positive contribution to society.

Human rights annoys me !!! :mad:
Why should Criminals have human rights...
Why can't Law abiding people make the decisions ...
Far too many people re-offend for my liking :mad:

Capital Punishment is the way forward for convicted / prooved guilty Murderers , Peado's and other horrific offences ...:D

All back down to the great 'do gooders' I hope there happy !!!!!! :rant:

We rely on foreign hospitals to shorten our waiting lists, and foreign workers to fill the skills gap.

Why not pay another country, say China or Singapore, to house our crims for the full term of their sentence?

I think it would be far cheaper and a more effective deterrant personally.

I haven't read the whole thread but I tend to agree with much of what Bartfest has to say, my opinion is that prison has to be a place young people do not want to return to. I haven't been to prison myself but I do know people who have and they say that apart from the loss of liberty it isn't too bad. Not too bad ! it should be hell on earth, short sharp shock, somewhere they never ever want to go back to again. If a 19 year old has a few months of hard work and misery he might change his ways and become a valued member of society.
OK shoot me down now
Dave..

I haven't read the whole thread but I tend to agree with much of what Bartfest has to say, my opinion is that prison has to be a place young people do not want to return to. I haven't been to prison myself but I do know people who have and they say that apart from the loss of liberty it isn't too bad. Not too bad ! it should be hell on earth, short sharp shock, somewhere they never ever want to go back to again. If a 19 year old has a few months of hard work and misery he might change his ways and become a valued member of society.
OK shoot me down now
Dave..
Good on yer mate.

And nice post from Don - I doubt our young scrotes would enjoy time in a Chinese prison.

Yeah, I see your point - but I think it doesn't work to just treat someone like a sub-human for a while and expect them to return to the streets a better person.
Unless you're talking about something the boot camp idea in America? Don't know much about it, but to me it seems more productive than locking up young teenagers with career criminals.
If they were treated as sub human for part of their sentences that should be a deterrant, having served that as the punishment we should then work on rehabilitating them and keep the two things separate. It's clear that allowing them their human rights isn't working as around two thirds of the prison population are re-offenders who clearly haven't been deterred by their previous experience in there. We've just got to be mean with them.

If they were treated as sub human for part of their sentences that should be a deterrant, having served that as the punishment we should then work on rehabilitating them and keep the two things separate. It's clear that allowing them their human rights isn't working as around two thirds of the prison population are re-offenders who clearly haven't been deterred by their previous experience in there. We've just got to be mean with them.

Yeah, what you're saying does make sense. It's the complete lack of rehab that is being suggested on this thread that I don't agree with. People won't change by being treated like animals, they will become worse.

And yes, it is clear that current methods aren't working! I saw something mentioned on another thread about military training for certain criminals. I don't see this as a bad idea, especially if coupled with training in skills that will hlep them get a job when they leave.

I agree with sentiments on this thread from both Bartfast and Halibut.

The main problem here is one of empathy, at either a theoretical or practical level. How many of us here know what it must be like to be so lawless as to simply not care about the punishment at the other end. The fact is there are a hardcore of inmates out there who are beyond reprieve - the early socialisation process has seen to this. Of course, there are those who will argue that this attitude is only fostered because prison is a "soft touch" but the fact is unless you go down the Bangkok Hilton road, prison time can only get so 'hard'. And for certain institutionalised offenders, no amount of overcrowding or deprivation is going to stop them offending the second they get out.

As a footnote, I would love to hear some genuine examples of HOW people can be 'reformed'. Simply saying "education, training, understanding" etc is a bit disenginious. Its like arguing that everyone would come off the dole if only they were offered a job.

Should prison even be an option for persistent re-offenders, or would lethal injection for them be in the better interests of society?

Prison crowding was the original topic but the thread seems to have drifted towards what should prison be like? What evidence is there that a harsher prison regime reduces repeat offending anyway?

The answer is very simple. Don't send so many people to jail and when you do don't make it for so long.

Replace custodial sentences ,or parts of them, for less serious offences and replace them with community based sentences. Get people to work off their fines rather than send them to jail. What good are people doing festering in jail? That's not going to change their behaviour is it?

Prison shoud be reserved for violent or repeat serious offenders only.

If the goverment actually stuck to their promises then we'd not have this debate, this problem or the bill for housing convicted criminals in police cells.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20010520/ai_n14397502

Once again, Labour have lied to the country and after trying every half ars*d tactic such as HDC, Intermittant custody etc etc they find themselves batting a sticky wicket where they are having to 'find' extra space for prisoners. Bear in mind that they actually closed HMP The Weare in 2005 meaning that the estate lost 400 spaces. Continual inaction in the pursuit of building more jails, namely Garforth, mean that there is not even light at the end of the tunnel.

Seeing as their plans are dated as far back as 2001 then I see no reason other than gross incompetance, neglect of office and pure damnable stupidity for this unacceptable situation. I'm sure we'll now be able to wait for the current home secretary to start the hand wringing and the usual 'short comings of predecessors' speech.

I will stand on record as making a prediction here and now: I predict a rise in convicted criminals getting open conditions and HDC in the next 12 months. I also predict a rise in abscondment from open conditions and at least one or two serious incidents commited by individuals released under HDC.

God damn the gaggle of liars and charlatans that the dimwitted British public elected :rant:

As a footnote, I would love to hear some genuine examples of HOW people can be 'reformed'. Simply saying "they need education" etc is a bit disenginious. Its like saying everybody would come off the dole if you offered them a job.These people need to be given training in skills, community service etc where they realise that they can gain some pleasure, satisfaction and pride from helping others and doing a worthwhile job with an end result. I don't think a lot of them have ever experienced that.

These people need to be given training in skills, community service etc where they realise that they can gain some pleasure, satisfaction and pride from helping others and doing a worthwhile job with an end result. I don't think a lot of them have ever experienced that.

Whilst in jail?

And to all prisoners, or just the ones at the 'petty' end of the food chain?

Whilst in jail?

And to all prisoners, or just the ones at the 'petty' end of the food chain?This thread is about prisoners not offenders overall. After making an assessment some should be in jail or under the authority of the jail if doing community work and maybe living in the prison when not working, others should be under the authority of the probation service after serving the punishment part of their sentence. Obviously it would be different for different types of offenders but those at the bottom of the food chain as you call them need to be taught that there can be a more rewarding life than behaving as they do and taught how to do it by introducing them to that experience. It won't work for everyone of course but there isn't an answer for everything in this situation.

Bring back the stocks and introduce chain gangs. Not more prison places.

Then the public could see the offenders, and the offenders could see that public sees them, while at the same time repaying their debt to society by performing a service the government appears not to want to pay anyone else to do.

I'll get my coat.