A couple of weeks ago, in conjunction with a city break in Krakow, southern Poland, I went on a guided tour of the museum at the former concentration camp of Auschwitz and of the site of the nearby Birkenau camp.

By way of background, Auschwitz, or to give it its present-day Polish name, Oswiecim (approx pronounciation: oash-fyen-cheem) is a small railway/industrial town set in an area of pleasant wooded countryside. The main Auschwitz camp (Auschwitz I) was originally founded by the Austrians in 1916 as a residential camp for agricultural workers and it was subsequently used a barracks by the Polish army. At the beginning of the second world war this area of southern Poland became of interest to the Germans because of its industrial resources, including coal deposits. The IG Farben company selected Auschwitz as a location for some chemical factories, including a large rubber producing facility. Auschwitz was a significant railway junction and the amount of war-related industry round about expanded. The concentration camps were established as accommodation for the forced factory labour.

In entering the Auschwitz I museum area one passes under the famous ‘Arbeit macht frei’ archway. The brick buildings of the camp are well preserved and the area has an institutional feel a little akin to a Victorian mental hospital. The majority of the twenty or so blocks have exhibits and we toured some of the blocks. Most striking were the large displays of belongings of former inmates including hair (women’s hair was utilised in making uniforms etc), shoes and suitcases. The blocks have fairly large rooms. It was not possible to gain an impression of what living conditions would have been like for inmates although the guide told us that it would have been very crowded. A visit to some basement cells and an execution wall between two of the blocks gave a glimpse of the darkest side of camp life. We also went through the gas chamber at Auschwitz I which was reportedly first used for gassing some Soviet prisoners of war and sick prisoners. This is a smallish building and is actually a reconstruction (although for many years the Communist authorities passed it off as being original).

The Birkenau camp (Auschwitz II) lies on the outskirts of Oswiecim next to the village of Brzezinka. (There was a third main camp, Monowitz (Auschwitz III), located next to the IG Farben factory, though nothing remains of this now). Although there is physically less to see at Birkenau it is arguably the more interesting of the two remaining sites. Birkenau was the largest concentration camp in the Nazi system and is regarded as having played a key role in the genocide operation.

The buildings at the entrance to Birkenau, including the watch tower over the archway with the railway track running through, are still in existence. Birkenau is basically a vast field (about 425 acres in size). There were originally over 300 residential blocks for inmates: some brick built, but mostly of wood. About 70 of the blocks have survived. We had a tour of one of the blocks. This was certainly evocative of Schindler’s List type images. The living conditions were primitive: several people would have slept on each bunk. The sanitary provision was grossly inadequate and the guide told us that in winter when pipes were frozen the inmates would have gone without water for washing for several weeks.

The railway track runs down to the far end of the camp stopping a little before the ruins of crematoria numbers 2 and 3. Just beyond the crematoria in front of a copse of trees is a monument and place of commemoration for the victims of Auschwitz. Ironically, or perhaps fittingly, with the sun setting behind the trees and the area thrown into shade, this seemed a very tranquil place.

CONT:

In 1967 a plaque was erected at Birkenau informing visitors that 4 million people had been killed at the camp. In 1995 this plaque was removed and replaced by the current ones (in several languages) stating that around 1.5 million people (mostly Jews) had died there. Some new information concerning train journey records has led the museum authorities to favour a further revision and the official website currently refers to a figure of around 1 million. (A leading Holocaustian scholar, Jean-Claude Pressac, has suggested that the figure might be in the order of 700,000).

The downward revision has been partly prompted by the release of information from the Soviet Union after the fall of Communism in 1989. A set of German ‘Death Book’ records, seized by the Russians, was handed over to the International Red Cross (IRC). The records are not complete but by extrapolation the IRC has estimated that around 135,000 registered prisoners died at Auschwitz. These were only the registered prisoners, however. It is assumed that people who arrived at Auschwitz but were not registered were immediately executed: unless there is evidence that their stay at Auschwitz was in transit to somewhere else. A lot of research and debate revolves around trying to reconstruct what happened to various groups of people being transported around Europe.

Another line for enquiry for revisionists (sceptics) concerns the technicalities and logistics of how the gas chambers are said to have operated. There is discussion, for example, of the properties of Zyklon B gas: such as how long a period of ventilation would be necessary for it be safe for guards to re-enter a chamber in which the gas had been administered (this has implications for the assumed maximum daily throughput of victims), and whether Zyklon B’s explosive properties would have posed a danger given that the chambers were in fairly close proximity to the cremation furnaces.

The remains of the crematoria buildings near the memorial site (Krema II and III) are in a partially ruined state. (There was insufficient time on our visit to see the other two facilities at Birkenau, Krema IV and V, but I understand that they are in a similar state). Fencing prevents one from getting very close to the remains. The larger section of the buildings were changing areas and these are openly visible. Piles of rubble lie on top of the parts where the chambers and furnaces were located. It might be helpful if one of the Kremas was to be reconstructed (as has happened at the Auschwitz I camp) so that one could get a walk through view of things. My impression, however, was that the chambers were fairly small: perhaps not much more than a large room in a house. The gassing operation entailed, I understand, that after people had been killed their bodies would have been carried from the chambers in the basement to the furnaces at ground level. This does lead me towards the view that the facilities at Birkenau were not geared up for the very high volumes of activity which are sometimes spoken of, and that if one was purposely designing a mass execution facility one would design something rather different from the Birkenau Kremas.

One should always keep an open mind about historical (and contemporary) events and be open to new information. I haven’t myself formed a definitive view on Auschwitz’s role in the Holocaust. I have a fairly firm impression that living conditions for prisoners, particularly at Birkenau (and in the later stages of the war), were inhumane and there was quite a bit of barbarity in the way the German captors behaved. The poor living conditions, with the risk of disease and malnutrition, arguably warrant the description of ‘death camp’. I have some scepticism, however, about the extent to which there was a systematic execution operation at Auschwitz/Birkenau. My working assumption is that there was some such activity but it was more piecemeal and involved significantly lower numbers of people than we have traditionally been led to believe.

That really is good news. Only 700,000 victims of the Holocaust in this one concentration camp. Must make all those neo-nazis feel justified in denying it ever happened.

I also have been to the camp,I thought myself that the numbers killed were on the high side,in fact I expect the number to continue to drop to around half a million.
And before anyone jumps on me I say it DID take place and it wasn't justified at all,as to the camp itself I found it to be a a camp of 2 halves,one was a labour camp and the other Birkenauw was primary a extermination camp,just a shame that camp 3 monolith is not viewable .

I have also been on that trip.
Overall my impression was that the Auswitz I camp seemed like it had aged greater than 60 years. The thousands of people who have visited seemed to give it an air of a century of history.

I was particularly disturbed by the stand up cells where prisoners were punished by being walled in and unable to sit down for a day or two.

I notice (in your comments about the gas) that you state that guards were entering the gas chambers to prepare for the next cycle of executions, whereas the guide stated that all this work was not done by guards but privilaged prisoners who were sworn to secrecy.

Have you read 'Auschwitz' by Laurence Rees? It's a brilliantly researched piece of work and includes interviews with the perpetrators and their victims.
Rees concludes, having spent a total of fifteen years work on the subject that the number of men women and children who died there was 1.1 million.
It's priced at £8.99 and published by BBC books.

I know that some people find the details of the actual amount of executions a topic worth debating, but I find it a little irrelevant.
The actual number can never be accurately stated due to the absense of records, but in my view, 100,000 deaths or 4 million deaths is a crime and a tragedy of equal importance.

And if there is such a place as hell, there will be a special reigion of it for the perpetrators of these crimes.

We have some photographs from 'Belsen' which wasn't one of the worst camps showing bodies several feet high which were issued to my Father in law during the final days of the war whilst he was in Belsen (His unit was one of the first in and some 2 weeks earlier than most other images released) serving with the 63rd anti tank Regiment RA those bodies certainly do exist in their piles of hundreds of souls. Believe what you want and have nightmares like he even does now about it, it happened. If you go to Eden camp there was a exhibition about Belsen in Hut29 a section of the holocaust and look at the photograph of Josef Kramer the camp kommandant under guard, the guard is my Father in law.

That really is good news. Only 700,000 victims of the Holocaust in this one concentration camp. Must make all those neo-nazis feel justified in denying it ever happened.


Those so-called concentration camps were built by the British and Americans after the war, with Jewish money, to provide evidence for their fake Holocaust and justify stealing the Palestinians' land to give to the Jews...


....yes, I have actually heard this argument. That's the whole point of a conspiracy theory; any actual, solid evidence that proves it false, merely tells the believers that you, and your fabricated evidence, is part of the conspiracy.

I visited Auschwitz and Birkenau, alone, in the summer of 1993.I'd first read about it in 'Scourge of the Swastika', in about 1954 and as a 12 year old such names as Auschwitz, Belsen and Buchenwald spelt out pictures of horror and evil.

It felt very strange, therefore, even 39 years later to be catching an everyday bus to Auschwitz! [about 2 or 3 hours from Cracow].It was a beautiful, very hot July day and it was difficult to imagine the horrors that once took place there. As someone has already said, many parts of Birkenau have a tranquil, almost rural air about them. In the women's camp, I remember, there were beautiful flowers growing wild and butterflies.

It was difficult to imagine it when it was cold, covered in grey mud, severely overcrowded, disease ridden and an atmosphere of terror for the prisoners when any day could be your last one on earth.

I think, generally, the picture we have of Auschwitz as a camp of death is pretty accurate. Usually, historians find that even fairly small groups of people cannot make up false stories if examined carefully.In the case of the Nazi death camps so many thousands of testimonies, by prisoners, by-standers and the Germans themselves have basically agreed that I'm sure the overall picture is a true one. Details might differ but that's all. In the chaos of war and the German debacle it would indeed be suspicious if the testimonies DID agree!

There are not only testimonies either but physical evidence still at Auschwitz, documents, photographs, railway timetables and the mystery of what happened to 8 million Jews who disappeared from Europe in a fairly short time ! That's apart from the millions of Poles, Russians and others who also went missing? Perhaps they're all living in Never-Never Land?

A few years later I visited Mauthausen in Austria, which, although it claimed less victims than Auschwitz, was, for the individual prisoner, the worst camp of the lot, in many respects. In fact, it was classified by the Nazis as a punishment camp within the concentration camp system !

Anyone visiting these places certainly gets an education in how we ought to value freedom of the individual.

We have some photographs from 'Belsen' which wasn't one of the worst camps showing bodies several feet high which were issued to my Father in law during the final days of the war whilst he was in Belsen (His unit was one of the first in and some 2 weeks earlier than most other images released) serving with the 63rd anti tank Regiment RA those bodies certainly do exist in their piles of hundreds of souls. Believe what you want and have nightmares like he even does now about it, it happened. If you go to Eden camp there was a exhibition about Belsen in Hut29 a section of the holocaust and look at the photograph of Josef Kramer the camp kommandant under guard, the guard is my Father in law.

I applaud your father, Livewire. It must have been harrowing for him to have come across this scene, and to have had to deal with the reality that was the death camps.

I'm sure you will get some cretin saying:-

"Ahh but the photos of the bodies etc were 'posed', it wasn't really like that!!!"

there are six million reasons why the holocaust deniers need a taste of the truth.

Angler 20 have you seen the video footage from this place and the first hand accounts?

Angler 20 have you seen the video footage from this place and the first hand accounts?
I'm aware of first hand accounts: I don't think I've posted anything which is necessarily in contradiction to those. I can't say I've come across video footage: only still photos.

I'm aware of first hand accounts: I don't think I've posted anything which is necessarily in contradiction to those. I can't say I've come across video footage: only still photos.Well i don't know about video footage of the gas chambers but at school they showed us video footage of prisoners arriving and heaps of bodies strewn in massive piles.I had to leave the class room it was too much for me.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/camp/view/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/camp/view/

For once, I'm speechless - my response after seeing that is that anything I might say would seem so trivial.

Maybe this is a good moment to mention that there is the Holocaust Centre only a smidge over 30 mins drive from Sheffield, if anyone cares to visit? http://www.holocaustcentre.net/

On weekdays, there are often Holocaust survivors on hand to answer questions. It's quite possible, though I speak from a position of scant knowledge and no authority, that, if anyone were interested in one specific camp, someone could be found with whom what ACTUALLY happened could be discussed.

Well i don't know about video footage of the gas chambers but at school they showed us video footage of prisoners arriving and heaps of bodies strewn in massive piles.I had to leave the class room it was too much for me.
On the coach journey from Krakow to Oswiecim (Auschwitz) we were shown a film which featured an interview with a Russian soldier who undertook some filming after that camp was liberated; the pictures we saw were mainly stills as I recall. In that film nothing as distressing as what you describe was shown. I would acknowledge, however, that in the final months of the war when German logistics and administration broke down the conditions for inmates in many camps would have become even worse.

I do take the view that the second world war needs to be viewed in the round and include, for example, the large scale civilian casualties caused by the British bombing of cities such as Dresden, the mass Russian casualties, the treatment of British soldiers in Japanese POW camps and the atom bomb attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The Nazis have now long gone but the world continues to be a bad place. For example, in the last three years over 600,000 people have lost their lives in Iraq as a result of the lies of the American and British governments.

I do take the view that the second world war needs to be viewed in the round and include, for example, the large scale civilian casualties caused by the British bombing of cities such as Dresden, the mass Russian casualties, the treatment of British soldiers in Japanese POW camps and the atom bomb attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.


There were many horrors of the Second World War, although the holocaust seems to get the most publicity and as a result some horrors do get overlooked. You mention a number of these other events but let's not forget the London/Coventry blitz or the horrendous Tokyo fire bombing.

I bow my head in shame. The shame being that I am part of the human race......the same human race that found it within themselves to inflict such attrocities on so many innocent people.
I feel totally gutted after watching the video clips......my heart is aching. Yet......what has been learnt? In my opinion......nothing!
Life is so cheap to those who choose to take it, in order to make gains for themselves.

.....This does lead me towards the view that the facilities at Birkenau were not geared up for the very high volumes of activity which are sometimes spoken of, and that if one was purposely designing a mass execution facility one would design something rather different from the Birkenau Kremas.

One should always keep an open mind about historical (and contemporary) events and be open to new information. I haven’t myself formed a definitive view on Auschwitz’s role in the Holocaust. I have a fairly firm impression that living conditions for prisoners, particularly at Birkenau (and in the later stages of the war), were inhumane and there was quite a bit of barbarity in the way the German captors behaved. The poor living conditions, with the risk of disease and malnutrition, arguably warrant the description of ‘death camp’. I have some scepticism, however, about the extent to which there was a systematic execution operation at Auschwitz/Birkenau. My working assumption is that there was some such activity but it was more piecemeal and involved significantly lower numbers of people than we have traditionally been led to believe.

Your keeping "an open mind" about historical information, and your alleged inability to form "a definitive view on Auschwitz's role in the Holocaust", and your admitted "scepticism....about the extent to which there was a systematic execution operation at Auschwitz/Birkenau" simply makes you a revisionist of the facts of Nazi extermination camps. You are in good
company with that other Holocaust deniar - David Irving, currently serving a term of imprisonment in Austria.

I visited Auschwitz and Birkenau, alone, in the summer of 1993.I'd first read about it in 'Scourge of the Swastika', in about 1954 and as a 12 year old such names as Auschwitz, Belsen and Buchenwald spelt out pictures of horror and evil....
I too, read that book Fareast and to this day I wish that I hadn't. The cruelty of the atrocities described therein were almost unimaginable.

My father was in The Royal artillery and was there in the very early days of concentration camp liberation, as evidently was Livewirex's father-in-law, in fact he was one of those detailed to write a report on the conditions. I showed him the book and asked if it were true. After reading it, his comment was... "Yes, the book is no exaggeration but it only tells part of the story, they'd never dare print what really went on." He wouldn't say any more and with hindsight, I'm glad that he didn't.

That people could behave so inhumanly towards others is virtually beyond belief and anyone who would deny such horrific events happened, or seek to minimise their significance, is showing gross disrespect for the men, women and children who died at the hands of these devils.

precisely, pseudonym et al.

I point you to my sig line

I knew an elderly lady ,who lived in Hatfield Doncaster ,who was Estonian,her husband rescued her ,during the war, when she was a young woman, and brought her to England .She was one of the people who were engaged in dictating and recording the court hearings ,when the criminals of Belsen were put on trial.

there are six million reasons why the holocaust deniers need a taste of the truth.
The 6 million figure has a life independent of empirical evidence. It first appeared in an article by Ben Hecht (a Jewish Hollywood script writer) in the February 1943 edition of Reader's Digest magazine. It thus pre-dates many of the purported events. The figure continues to be repeated today despite, for example, 3 million officially being lost from the Auschwitz death toll.

When you were on the visit, did many people take photos?

....... February 1943 edition of Reader's Digest magazine.

http://www.gatago.com/soc/history/21600168.html


.......It thus pre-dates many of the purported events. ......

Hardly.
The camps started around 1933 and the pogroms started in 1938.

I bow my head in shame. The shame being that I am part of the human race......the same human race that found it within themselves to inflict such attrocities on so many innocent people.
I feel totally gutted after watching the video clips......my heart is aching. Yet......what has been learnt? In my opinion......nothing!
Life is so cheap to those who choose to take it, in order to make gains for themselves.

And still it goes on..............East Timor, Congo, Dafur, Rwanda, the former Yugoslavia..............how stupid can one race, the human race be? And now we have those who choose to blow themselves up in order to murder others? The philosophy of the ' I'm right you're dead' brigade can serve one purpose only............world annihilation ............coming to a cinema near you, sooner than you think.

The 6 million figure has a life independent of empirical evidence. It first appeared in an article by Ben Hecht (a Jewish Hollywood script writer) in the February 1943 edition of Reader's Digest magazine. It thus pre-dates many of the purported events. The figure continues to be repeated today despite, for example, 3 million officially being lost from the Auschwitz death toll.

You stand corrected angle20........

Hardly.
The camps started around 1933 and the pogroms started in 1938.

What's going to be your next instalment in the revision of the nazi extermination camps I wonder? Incidently, I note that you keep referring to Auschwich as a "concentration camp". If you follow the following link provided by cgksheff (see below), you will see it is clearly listed as a "Death Camp". But I'm fairly convinced from your posts to date, that the truth won't stop you trying to revise what the world really knows happened at the Auschwitz Death Camp - which was mass extermination.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/camp/view/

I don't just count the jewish people who died, within that 6m deaths, there were more than that, the disabled, the dissenter, the homosexual, the communist, the slavs, they all suffered, also, under the Nazis.
that's why I was moved to write THIS:-

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=275491&postcount=18

last year, on the 60th anniversary of the camp's liberation.

You stand corrected angle20........



What's going to be your next instalment in the revision of the nazi extermination camps I wonder? Incidently, I note that you keep referring to Auschwich as a "concentration camp". If you follow the following link provided by cgksheff (see below), you will see it is clearly listed as a "Death Camp". But I'm fairly convinced from your posts to date, that the truth won't stop you trying to revise what the world really knows happened at the Auschwitz Death Camp - which was mass extermination.

No, angle20 is not wrong on this count, Auschwitz contained three camps, I, II & III. I was a concentration camp and HQ, II aka Birkenau was an extermination camp and III was a labour camp.

I don't just count the jewish people who died, within that 6m deaths, there were more than that, the disabled, the dissenter, the homosexual, the communist, the slavs, they all suffered, also, under the Nazis.
that's why I was moved to write THIS:-

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=275491&postcount=18

last year, on the 60th anniversary of the camp's liberation.

A very moving tribute PT.

[QUOTE=Plain Talker]I don't just count the jewish people who died, within that 6m deaths, there were more than that, the disabled, the dissenter, the homosexual, the communist, the slavs, they all suffered, also, under the Nazis.
QUOTE]

Those extras are not 'within' the 6 million, PT. The 6 million referred specifically to jewish victims. The total tally including the other murdered groups is almost double that. :|

When you were on the visit, did many people take photos?
There were some. By an oversight I was camera-less; a number of views are available on the web, however.

The camps started around 1933 and the pogroms started in 1938.
I was referring to the gas chamber operations: the four Kremas at Birkenau did not become fully operational until the summer of 1943.

you will see it is clearly listed as a "Death Camp".
I used the phrase 'death camp' towards the end of my piece above. But what, following the implication of your post, would have been the purpose of having 300 accommodation blocks at Birkenau?

The Auschwitz-Birkenau camp 'empire' was a bit more complicated than some previous posters have made it out to be.

Camp 1 [The 'Mother Camp !]was, indeed, largely a concentration camp but gassings did take place there on a small scale, mainly on Russian prisoners-of-war and this was to see how effective Zyklon B gas was.

The much larger camp at Birkenau began as a concentration camp and then from 1942 was both a concentration camp and an extermination camp. The gassings ended in Nov. 1944.Massive numbers of prisoners were sent out in terrible conditions to work, side by side with the extermination process.To ensure a little more 'discretion' the Germans extended the railway line from the main gate right up to the area where the four gas chambers and crematoria were situated.

The peak time for exterminations was the summer of 1944 when most of the Hungarian Jews were gassed, about 400,000.Just after getting off the trains the prisoners would be 'examined' by a doctor and separated into those who could work and those destined immediately for death.The gas chambers and crematoria were also used for those who died or who could no longer work, from the concentration camps of Auschwitz 1,2 and 3.

Auschwitz 3 , or Monowitz, never had gas chambers and was purely a concentration camp, mainly to provide labour for the huge I.G. Farben company . Auschwitz 1 and 2 were only about a mile apart but camp 3 was about 3 or 4 miles away on the other side of Auschwitz town and no longer exists at all.

There's quite an interesting Sheffield connection with all this. Years ago there was a book by a man named Charles Coward called, 'The Password is Courage'. It was made into a film. Coward had been the senior officer at a British prisoner-of-war camp, situated bang next to Camp 3.One of the ordinary soldiers under his command was Alex Keenan, a well-known Sheffield character, now, sadly, passed away.The film people had to come to Sheffield to get Alex's permission to portray him in the film.In the book he was called 'Tich' Keenan.The British p.o.w.'s were witnesses, on the spot, to a great many atrocities in and around Camp 3 and helped as many of the concentration camp prisoners as they could.

Unless all these people [and I mean in general, not just the British p.o.w.'s]lied and somehow managed to make all their lies hang together and this includes German witnesses too, it would seem that about 1 million people were gassed at Auschwitz and many, many thousands were beaten or starved to death or died of disease, amid scenes of great brutality.Also of course there were at least 3 other big extermination camps at Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec but that's another horror story.

Camp 1 [The 'Mother Camp !]was, indeed, largely a concentration camp but gassings did take place there on a small scale, mainly on Russian prisoners-of-war and this was to see how effective Zyklon B gas was.

The much larger camp at Birkenau began as a concentration camp and then from 1942 was both a concentration camp and an extermination camp. The gassings ended in Nov. 1944.Massive numbers of prisoners were sent out in terrible conditions to work, side by side with the extermination process.To ensure a little more 'discretion' the Germans extended the railway line from the main gate right up to the area where the four gas chambers and crematoria were situated.

The peak time for exterminations was the summer of 1944 when most of the Hungarian Jews were gassed, about 400,000.Just after getting off the trains the prisoners would be 'examined' by a doctor and separated into those who could work and those destined immediately for death.The gas chambers and crematoria were also used for those who died or who could no longer work, from the concentration camps of Auschwitz 1,2 and 3.

Auschwitz 3 , or Monowitz, never had gas chambers and was purely a concentration camp, mainly to provide labour for the huge I.G. Farben company . Auschwitz 1 and 2 were only about a mile apart but camp 3 was about 3 or 4 miles away on the other side of Auschwitz town and no longer exists at all.

A useful overview, Fareast. You draw attention, however, to something which revisionists regard as logistically problematic. Based on calculations by Carlo Mattogno it is estimated that the maximum capacity of the Birkenau crematoria for the period in which the Hungarian Jews arrived in the summer of 1944 would have been around 65,000 bodies. On this basis, that part of your description cannot be quite accurate.

A useful overview, Fareast. You draw attention, however, to something which revisionists regard as logistically problematic. Based on calculations by Carlo Mattogno it is estimated that the maximum capacity of the Birkenau crematoria for the period in which the Hungarian Jews arrived in the summer of 1944 would have been around 65,000 bodies. On this basis, that part of your description cannot be quite accurate.

Well that'd perhaps be on account of Mattogno ( go and look him up) being a revisionist scholar ( holocaust denier ) with a rather dubious grasp of
academic conventions (i.e. proper research based on evidence rather than supposition)..........

Having been to the camp on 2 ocassions I was always baffled at the size of the ovens,very narrow indeed,I think the figure of 100,000 is more in line with reality.
Of course now I will get the left acuse me of being a nazi after all anyone who disputes the allied version is a nazi,right.
Those who have actualy been to the camp know far better than those who havent been there in my book.

A useful overview, Fareast. You draw attention, however, to something which revisionists regard as logistically problematic. Based on calculations by Carlo Mattogno it is estimated that the maximum capacity of the Birkenau crematoria for the period in which the Hungarian Jews arrived in the summer of 1944 would have been around 65,000 bodies. On this basis, that part of your description cannot be quite accurate.

Aahh, so now you are relying on Carlo Mattogno, the Italian Holocaust revisionist.

It may only be a matter of time though before angle20 relies on our own discredited British Holocaust denier, David Irving, to support his contention that the Nazis exterminated fewer Jews than 6 million.

angle20 so far appears to have got the number of those exterminated down to 700,000 and now 65,000. Isn't 65,000 deaths "logistically problematic" angle20? Still some way to go, surely?

I suppose the question is really whether Nazi Germany intended to liquidate millions of European Jews or not. I think, beyond a reasonable doubt, that they did.

One can argue about how successful they were. One may be able to revise downwards estimates of their efficiency in completely exterminating/purging a racio-religious group from europe.

That would detract slightly from the scale of the horror, but it would not detract from the crime.

I suppose the question is really whether Nazi Germany intended to liquidate millions of European Jews or not. I think, beyond a reasonable doubt, that they did.


But doesn't the Madagascar Plan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan) say otherwise though Phan?

The Madagascar Plan was a suggested policy of the Third Reich government of Nazi Germany to forcibly relocate the entire Jewish population of Europe to the French island colony of Madagascar, off the coast of Africa.

The only reason it wasn't executed was because Hitler failed to invade Britain and so couldn't utilise the Navy for "transportation".

I must admit that I don't know much at all about the problems of disposing of bodies ; never done it at all, nor been an undertaker.However, this might throw some light on the matter.

There were 4 gas chambers and [I think], 3 crematoria in Birkenau. The big gas chambers could hold up to 2,000 people, considering that they were naked, standing up and many were children. I'm not sure how many ovens each crematorium had and, sure enough, there were reports by the ' SonderKommando' [the squad of prisoners who did the dirty work] that there were 'bottlenecks'------ the crematoria couldn't keep pace with the gas chambers.

However, an ingenious answer was found to the problem! A huge pit was dug behind a small copse, at the top end of the camp, and the 'overflow' bodies were burnt there.Regularly, ashes were taken to the nearby River Vistula and dumped and to a pond inside Birkenau which is still there. Bones were crushed and used as fertiliser.I would have thought, or I understood, that the human body could be reduced to almost nothing so I don't think disposal would be a problem, per se.

It does seem remarkable that so many people could be killed in a comparitavely small area, over a period of 4 or 5 years but the people who arrived at the camp were hungry, weak, terrified and confused. They were very easily controlled by vicious dogs and men with machine guns. The main 'problem' statistically seems to be ---how did they manage to burn so many bodies? Well, maybe the pit I described above goes some way to explaining that.

The Nazis did have a plan at one stage of deporting the Jews of Europe to Madagascar [!] but after that was abandoned, they did finally decide, after the Wansee Conference in 1942, to enact the ' Final Solution '.So, in that sense, the Nazis did decide the fate of the Jews, albeit, later than a lot of people imagine.

I suppose as someone has said, the details, are in a way, not what is important. However, when we think about the number of trains involved in the Holocaust, the size and number of the camps, the numbers of German personnel involved,the over-production of Zyklon B gas by a well-known German company, the neutral eye-witnesses, the accounts [which tally] of thousands of survivors,the films, the photographs and the disappearance of millions of Jews, Poles, Russians, Hungarians......et al.......what else can it add up to but mass murder? What else could the Germans have been planning ? A mass tea party?

.... bodies were burnt there........

Photo (Could be upsetting) here (http://www.johndclare.net/images/Auschwitz%20photos/Auschwitz_burningpit.JPG).

But doesn't the Madagascar Plan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan) say otherwise though Phan?

Not really. Mass execution doesn't happen by accident. I think the intention is plain to see.

cgksheff
Thanks for photograph, re-the 'pit'. I was going to mention the photograph, but forgot. I believe it was taken by a prisoner who was a skilled worker and had some limited access to parts of the camp.

The Polish Underground, operating in the camp, fixed him up with a camera and he took that picture from the roof of a nearby hut.

God knows what would have happened to him if the Nazis had discovered him with it ! There were some very brave people in Auschwitz, who still kept up their spirits, despite the dreadful and dangerous conditions all around them.

Of course now I will get the left acuse me of being a nazi after all anyone who disputes the allied version is a nazi,right.

Good grief royjames! How could anyone really believe that about you?

Photo (Could be upsetting) here (http://www.johndclare.net/images/Auschwitz%20photos/Auschwitz_burningpit.JPG).

CGK, that photo did nothing compared to the emotions that went through me when I watched the four short films you posted a link to....

Here (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/camp/view/)

Once again I found myself speechless.

Having been to the camp on 2 ocassions I was always baffled at the size of the ovens,very narrow indeed
Yes, Roy, as I remarked in the OP I didn't get the impression that the facilities were geared up for very high volumes of activity.

angle20 so far appears to have got the number of those exterminated down to 700,000 and now 65,000.
A distortion of the argument, redrobbo. The 65,000 figure refers to a two month period (in this case from May-July 1944).

It is worth remembering that the post-communist Polish authorities have been engaged in revising the numbers in order to produce a more historically accurate account. Only old communists seek to defend the traditional account in its entirety.

I suppose the question is really whether Nazi Germany intended to liquidate millions of European Jews or not. I think, beyond a reasonable doubt, that they did.

One can argue about how successful they were. One may be able to revise downwards estimates of their efficiency in completely exterminating/purging a racio-religious group from europe.

That would detract slightly from the scale of the horror, but it would not detract from the crime.

I think Phan has summarised it rather well here. Do angle20 et al acknowledge that the Holocaust was an attempt to exterminate the whole of European Jewry and do they acknowledge the magnitude of evil in such an attempt?

Why is the 6 million figure so important?

Is it because for permission to return to the promised land and to rid the Jews of sin God demanded a holocaust offering of 6 million?

In 1919 it was claimed that a 6 million holocaust was taking place in the Ukraine two years after the state of Israel was guaranteed.

???

There were 4 gas chambers and [I think], 3 crematoria in Birkenau. The big gas chambers could hold up to 2,000 people.

There were 4 crematoria and I think 6 gas chambers (nos II and III each having two). I disagree radically with regard to the capacity: I would say that each chamber could have held a maximum of 50 people (though as I mention in the OP one's impression is obscured by the piles of rubble and a reconstruction would be helpful).

However, an ingenious answer was found to the problem! A huge pit was dug behind a small copse, at the top end of the camp, and the 'overflow' bodies were burnt there.Regularly, ashes were taken to the nearby River Vistula and dumped and to a pond inside Birkenau which is still there. Bones were crushed and used as fertiliser.I would have thought, or I understood, that the human body could be reduced to almost nothing so I don't think disposal would be a problem, per se.

I'd heard of ashes being dumped in the pond but I haven't come across the idea of bodies being burnt in a pit. Given that it takes about half an hour to cremate a body in the very high temperatures of a furnace I'm not sure that this would have been a very practical way of disposing of any great number of corpses. Given the supposed efficiency of the Germans it would seem to be quite an amateurish way of proceeding.

I suppose as someone has said, the details, are in a way, not what is important
That's a revealing comment. There was mass murder, I'd agree, but I'd also like there to be historical accuracy.

There was mass murder, I'd agree, but I'd also like there to be historical accuracy.

If it's historical accuracy you're after there's a wealth of material by respected academics and some from those who survived. Odd that you suggest you like accuracy but have quoted Mattogno, whose own writings have shown to be full of innacuracy and misrepresentation. Have you read 'Auschwitz' by Laurence Rees? I can recommend it.

Do you accept that this was a systematic attempt to exterminate European Jewry, rather than a little bit of unfortunate mass murder?

I find it hard to believe that people are squabbling about the numbers here, as though if it were 100 people who died, it would make it any less abhorrent than if there were 1,000,000.

I find it hard to believe that people are squabbling about the numbers here, as though if it were 100 people who died, it would make it any less abhorrent than if there were 1,000,000.

hear hear, medusa,

:clap: well said

What makes the number of people who died at Auschwitz difficult to ascertain is principally the chaotic nature of the system.[Despite popular belief,the Nazis were generally very inefficient in every respect, except the conduct of warfare between 1939-42. The civil administration was over-complicated, it over-lapped and each ministry lived in its own little world, largely. This is largely due to the 'Fuehrer System', when Hitler gave out ambiguous orders and they were interpreted in various ways by political rivals.]

Of course the chaos caused by the war didn't help matters either. In his book, written [I think], in 1946, the ex-commandant of the camp, Rudolf Hoess, claimed that 3,000,000 people were exterminated at Auschwitz ! Was this down to professional pride or to please his captors ? Who knows ?

Various ex-S.S personnel have given evidence over the years and none of them deny that mass murder took place, only conflicts about the exact numbers.Evidence has been gathered from the German Railway authorities about the number of trains routed to Auschwitz and the number of people crammed into cattle trucks in dreadful conditions.There is evidence , for example that thousands of old people and children were sent to Auschwitz. What happened to them ? There is no evidence that there was a large camp for children or the over-60's.Perhaps the Nazis sent them all to Baden-Baden for the water cure ?

The tattoo numbers given to most of the prisoners don't help a great deal as some were never given a tattoo, others were transferred to other camps quite quickly and many newcomers were given the numbers of those already dead.

As I've said, taking the whole of the evidence into account, and not simply documentary evidence, I would hazard a guess that about 1,000,000 died at the three Auschwitz camps, in total, over a period of 5 years.Not all these were gassed. Some just died of exhaustion, others were beaten to death, others killed for 'sport', many died from diseases and the rest gassed.No matter which method they died by, to me , it was still down to the Germans, either through gross negligence or intentional murder.

I find it hard to believe that people are squabbling about the numbers here, as though if it were 100 people who died, it would make it any less abhorrent than if there were 1,000,000.

However abhorrent the death of 100 people is, there is a vast difference between that and genocide.

If it's historical accuracy you're after there's a wealth of material by respected academics and some from those who survived. Odd that you suggest you like accuracy but have quoted Mattogno, whose own writings have shown to be full of innacuracy and misrepresentation. Have you read 'Auschwitz' by Laurence Rees? I can recommend it.

Do you accept that this was a systematic attempt to exterminate European Jewry, rather than a little bit of unfortunate mass murder?

All revisionist historians are of course "discredited" in the eyes of the opposing camp, whatever their academic credentials. :rolleyes:

I haven't read the Rees book (it accompanied a TV series I believe). I have had a quick look at the reviews of it on Amazon. One or two comment that it ranges more broadly than the subject of Auschwitz itself. That raises a general issue. Holocaustians tend not to be comfortable about being pinned down on numbers, dates and places. They prefer a more broad brush look at the topic with 'flexibility' on numbers and places (with some emotive detail, which may be accurate, but not necessarily typical, being added in).

This thread is primarily about Auschwitz. I haven't looked at the 'final solution' issue in any detail. With regard to Auschwitz's possible role in that, however, my understanding is that only the group of Hungarian Jews who arrived in the summer of 1944 - which we discuss above - is cited an example of such a policy being implemented.

This thread is primarily about Auschwitz. I haven't looked at the 'final solution' issue in any detail. With regard to Auschwitz's possible role in that, however, my understanding is that only the group of Hungarian Jews who arrived in the summer of 1944 - which we discuss above - is cited an example of such a policy being implemented.


As I suggested earlier angle20, you've now managed to get the number of exterminantions down to 65,000.

I've not noticed a single post of yours that has decried the inhumanity of man towards man at Auschwitz angle20. Your posts seem to be fixated with revising the death camp numbers ever downwards. What number of Jewish and other deaths will satisfy you I wonder?

As I suggested earlier angle20, you've now managed to get the number of exterminantions down to 65,000.

I've not noticed a single post of yours that has decried the inhumanity of man towards man at Auschwitz angle20. Your posts seem to be fixated with revising the death camp numbers ever downwards. What number of Jewish and other deaths will satisfy you I wonder?
This is a quite improper comment, redrobbo.

I refer you back to my original two posts in which I gave my considered views. In those posts I also made the factual observation that the official museum currently supports a figure of around 1 million deaths (whilst noting that a leading Holocaustian writer has suggested a slightly lower figure).

As I've said before the 65,000 figure does not relate to the overall death total. That figure has been calculated as being the maximum capacity of the Kremas in a two month period. The fact that the number of prisoner arrivals would not have been even over time does have logistical implications. It is possible that some of the group of Hungarian Jews who arrived in the summer of 1944 stayed at Auschwitz only temporarily prior to being transferred elsewhere. However, that, as with many other aspects of the Holocaust, is still the subject of historical detective work.

This is a quite improper comment, redrobbo.

I refer you back to my original two posts in which I gave my considered views. In those posts I also made the factual observation that the official museum currently supports a figure of around 1 million deaths (whilst noting that a leading Holocaustian writer has suggested a slightly lower figure).

As I've said before the 65,000 figure does not relate to the overall death total. That figure has been calculated as being the maximum capacity of the Kremas in a two month period. The fact that the number of prisoner arrivals would not have been even over time does have logistical implications. It is possible that some of the group of Hungarian Jews who arrived in the summer of 1944 stayed at Auschwitz only temporarily prior to being transferred elsewhere. However, that, as with many of other aspects of the Holocaust, is still the subject of historical detective work.

Why are you so reluctant to accept the official museum figures? Why, for that matter, are you so uniquely qualified to dispute the figures? Why do you rely on a discredited Holocaust denier for support?

Why are you so reluctant to accept the official museum figures? Why, for that matter, are you so uniquely qualified to dispute the figures? Why do you rely on a discredited Holocaust denier for support?
I don't think a reading of my original post supports the suggestion that I am necessarily disputing the official figures. I would add, though, that the diplomatic sensitivity of the whole subject is likely to make the Polish authorities err on the conservative [in this context, higher] side in the figures they produce. I do, however, respect the action which the Polish authorities have taken to rectify the worst of the misinformation from the Soviet era.

Although Jean-Claude Pressac originated as a revisionist he is, I understand, no longer regarded as a member of that camp. Consequently, he is possibly the most middle-of-the-road of the independent experts.

Anyone who questions the figures is regarded as a nazi sympathiser no matter if you show another perspective you are branded.
Credit for this state of affairs to the Jewish lobby who at every opportunity do their utmost to pillory those who look into the events in a little closer detail,and who form their own judgments which might differ from theirs.
And as for those who simply go along with the accepted figure of 6 million well they are the ones who need to look outside the box and question what they are told,after all as the saying goes,tell a lie for long enough and it becomes the norm.
And finaly those who meekly attack anyone who dares to question the total figures without ever having even been to the camp are not worth the effort of a reply.

Anyone who questions the figures is regarded as a nazi sympathiser no matter if you show another perspective you are branded.
Credit for this state of affairs to the Jewish lobby who at every opportunity do their utmost to pillory those who look into the events in a little closer detail,and who form their own judgments which might differ from theirs.
And as for those who simply go along with the accepted figure of 6 million well they are the ones who need to look outside the box and question what they are told,after all as the saying goes,tell a lie for long enough and it becomes the norm.
And finaly those who meekly attack anyone who dares to question the total figures without ever having even been to the camp are not worth the effort of a reply.

I am not a Jew, so I can't stand accused of pillorying anyone on behalf of a "Jewish lobby".

I have never been to Poland, so have never visited Auschwitz. That doesn't disqualify me from having an opinion on the subject though royjames. By your strange, weird logic, how can you possibly question Jewish motives when you've probably never visited Israel, let alone a synagogue?

I am not "meekly" attacking angle20 by the way. I am vigorously attacking him!

I have myself never stated a figure for those exterminated in the death camps. What I am vigorously challenging is the rationale for angle20 to continuously revise the figures downwards, his reliance on discredited Holocaust deniers to back his claims, and an absence in his posts which acknowledges the degree of human suffering that occurred in Auschwitz.

But then again royjames, you too seem to question the figure of 6 million people who were deliberately exterminated in the death camps. As an earlier poster pointed out, it's not the actual figure that matters, but the sheer inhumanity of the nazis towards fellow human beings.

It suits the purposes of the Holocaust deniers to revise the deaths downwards, or even to perpetuate the myth that the Holocaust never actually happened. You summed it yourself royjames, when you stated "tell a lie for long enough and it becomes the norm."

So, I for one will always challenge the Holocaust deniers, lest we forget. And should the magnitude of this crime against humanity be downplayed by people like angle20 or others, we possibly allow the nazi sympathisers - who still exist in our midst - to gain credence. And that, royjames, would never do. Don't you agree?

ive not read any of the thread, passed the 1st page and dont want to get into any arguments over anything thats been posted, but i checked out the 1st link with video, and although i know this happened, cannot believe in my own mind that people could treat another human being like this. It astounds me how recent this was.

ash-sickened but maybe glad i seen so i dont forget.

.......

But then again royjames, you too seem to question the figure of 6 million people who were deliberately exterminated in the death camps. ........

Just to avoid the risk of you being shot down in flames, redrobbo, the figures of around 6 million are the numbers assumed to have died as a result of the entire 'Holocaust'.
Camps, Death Camps and 'Deliberate Extermination' were only a part of this.

It suits the purposes of the Holocaust deniers to revise the deaths downwards, or even to perpetuate the myth that the Holocaust never actually happened. You summed it yourself royjames, when you stated "tell a lie for long enough and it becomes the norm."
So, I for one will always challenge the Holocaust deniers, lest we forget. And should the magnitude of this crime against humanity be downplayed by people like angle20 or others, we possibly allow the nazi sympathisers - who still exist in our midst - to gain credence. And that, royjames, would never do. Don't you agree?

Well, do you or do you not agree royjames? angle20 has apparently refused to answer this question - ''Do you accept that this was a systematic attempt to exterminate European Jewry, rather than a little bit of unfortunate mass murder?''
Are you able to answer it royjames? Or would that be stretching your beliefs a little too far?

Just to avoid the risk of you being shot down in flames, redrobbo, the figures of around 6 million are the numbers assumed to have died as a result of the entire 'Holocaust'.
Camps, Death Camps and 'Deliberate Extermination' were only a part of this.

Thanks cgksheff. The figure of 6 million was mentioned without qualification by this poster....


And as for those who simply go along with the accepted figure of 6 million.....

Whereas I have studiously avoided getting into the numbers debate.....


I have myself never stated a figure for those exterminated in the death camps.

Whereas I have studiously avoided getting into the numbers debate.....



"..angle20 so far appears to have got the number of those exterminated down to 700,000..."

"As I suggested earlier angle20, you've now managed to get the number of exterminantions down to 65,000..."

"...What number of Jewish and other deaths will satisfy you I wonder?..."

"...Why are you so reluctant to accept the official museum figures? Why, for that matter, are you so uniquely qualified to dispute the figures?..."

"...the rationale for angle20 to continuously revise the figures downwards.."

"...you too seem to question the figure of 6 million people who were deliberately exterminated in the death camps..."


Maybe you weren't studious enough?

I have myself never stated a figure for those exterminated in the death camps. What I am vigorously challenging is the rationale for angle20 to continuously revise the figures downwards, his reliance on discredited Holocaust deniers to back his claims, and an absence in his posts which acknowledges the degree of human suffering that occurred in Auschwitz.

I have not "continuously" revised the figures. On the overall numbers nothing has changed since my first posts, where the 700,000 figure was mentioned in brackets. The 65,000 figure arose in a sub-discussion arising from Fareast's comment to the effect that 400,000 Hungarian Jews were gassed in the summer of 1944. I pointed out that there was some debate as to whether that number in a short time scale was practically possible. Having visited the site I am doubtful as to whether the facilities could have coped with such industrial scale volumes.

You imply that Jean-Claude Pressac is a "discredited Holocaust denier". He contributed a chapter to this book:
Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp (http://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Auschwitz-Death-Israel-Gutman/dp/025320884X)
Newly authoritative information is included in several essays, including one by Jean-Claude Pressac, a French investigator and former Holocaust denier, on the construction of the gas chambers and crematoria

I made some more general comments in my original two posts including saying that visiting an accommodation block was evocative of the moving Schindler's List film and concluding with:
I have a fairly firm impression that living conditions for prisoners, particularly at Birkenau (and in the later stages of the war), were inhumane and there was quite a bit of barbarity in the way the German captors behaved. The poor living conditions, with the risk of disease and malnutrition, arguably warrant the description of ‘death camp’.

angle20 has apparently refused to answer this question - ''Do you accept that this was a systematic attempt to exterminate European Jewry, rather than a little bit of unfortunate mass murder?''

I didn't refuse to answer the question, I professed to being not fully qualified to answer it but said:
This thread is primarily about Auschwitz. I haven't looked at the 'final solution' issue in any detail. With regard to Auschwitz's possible role in that, however, my understanding is that only the group of Hungarian Jews who arrived in the summer of 1944 - which we discuss above - is cited an example of such a policy being implemented.

It does appear sometimes that Holocaustians make assertions which are untestable, or when pressed on one issue seek to divert attention elsewhere. That is why it is worth focussing on the facts for a particular case study.

I have not "continuously" revised the figures. On the overall numbers nothing has changed since my first posts, where the 700,000 figure was mentioned in brackets. The 65,000 figure arose in a sub-discussion arising from Fareast's comment to the effect that 400,000 Hungarian Jews were gassed in the summer of 1944. I pointed out that there was some debate as to whether that number in a short time scale was practically possible. Having visited the site I am doubtful as to whether the facilities could have coped with such industrial scale volumes.

You imply that Jean-Claude Pressac is a "discredited Holocaust denier". He contributed a chapter to this book:
Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp (http://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Auschwitz-Death-Israel-Gutman/dp/025320884X)


I made some more general comments in my original two posts including saying that visiting an accommodation block was evocative of the moving Schindler's List film and concluding with:
So are you still refusing to acknowledge that the Holocaust was a systemic attempt to exterminate the Jewish people then, angle20?
royjames has been rather quiet about that too.

So are you still refusing to acknowledge that the Holocaust was a systemic attempt to exterminate the Jewish people then, angle20?

There should be one of those smilies for 'banging one's head against the desk'. :rolleyes:

There should be one of those smilies for 'banging one's head against the desk'. :rolleyes:

You still haven't answered the question and frankly, not doing so casts you in a rather unpleasant light.

That's better! :hihi: (http://www.ociw.edu/~birk/IMAGES/ANIMATED2/stress_ani.gif)

You still haven't answered the question and frankly, not doing so casts you in a rather unpleasant light.

Perhaps just obaying orders

Perhaps just obaying orders

Perhaps he really does think that Hitler had the right idea? Remarkably loathe to give any impression to the contrary.

Maybe you weren't studious enough?

I understand your point Tricky. By studiously avoiding entering into the numbers debate, I was stating that I had avoided suggesting my own figure for the deaths that occurred in the Nazi extermination camps. The quotes of mine you have selected relate to figures used by the revisionists on this thread to continually downgrade the numbers of people that were deliberatedly murdered by the Nazis.

What number satisfies these revisionists? What, for that matter, is the whole point of the OP in starting this thread but to apparently minimise the figures? An earlier poster pointed out that this squabbling over figures for was distasteful. I concur. My posts challenge the rationale for posters such as angle20 and royjames to simply acknowledge the inhumanity of the Nazis......

So, I for one will always challenge the Holocaust deniers, lest we forget. And should the magnitude of this crime against humanity be downplayed by people like angle20 or others, we possibly allow the nazi sympathisers - who still exist in our midst - to gain credence. And that, royjames, would never do. Don't you agree?

I note that angle20, in his subsequent posts, continues to dodge answering this important question, and royjames has simply not returned to this thread.

Anyone who questions the figures is regarded as a Nazi sympathiser

Well, a Nazi sympathiser or somebody who has missed the entire point.

The final number is merely a statement of ongoing crimes against humanity. What really matters is that the intent was there for the extermination of 11,000,000.

Let's remind ourselves of the breakdown of the 11,000,000 exterminations planned at the Wannsee Protocol (http://isurvived.org/Pictures_iSurvived-2/WannseeLIST.GIF), January 20, 1942, chaired by Reinhard Heydrich .