Should parents be informed about their daughters abortion.

Can society have it both ways. Parents are responsible apparently for their children's behaviour but not for their sex lives.

Children cannot make emotional judgements without talking to people who will give them good advice. Teachers, social workers are all good people but the family has to live with the consequences not just the young person. However, responsible and grownup we may think our children are they are still children and need our help and guidance. Society is quick to blame parents and rightly so for bad, antisocial behaviour but hormones take over where experimentation is concerned and it only takes a few minutes for a lifetime of regret.

I heard a lady on the radio put an interesting argument:

As a parent you're considered responsible if your child misses school and can be sent to prison for it. Yet if your child is having underage sex and subsequently undegoes a surgical procedure, the law can keep this info from you.

Not decided where I stand on the issue, just thought the above was an intriguing comment.

Perhaps we need to be asking what sort of parental influence and control was operating when 16 year olds (and younger - the recent Bishop Auckland / Durham case) are getting pregnant and WANTING an abortion.

There is a serious collapse of values here - anyone bleating about there offspring getting an abortion and not being informed should perhaps ask why their daughter was having sex at 14 or 15 without their knowledge.

Joe

I have no daughters, but if I did and she got pregnant under 16 then I think I'd want to know about it in order to bring the father (if over 16) to justice.

Originally posted by markham
I have no daughters, but if I did and she got pregnant under 16 then I think I'd want to know about it in order to bring the father (if over 16) to justice.

By this I assume you mean if he actually knew the girl was under 16 and slept with her anyway?
I used to work in a nightclub, and I witenessed many girls under 16 used to lie to get in & served then lie to get laid.
Do we legislate what age we shave at? No but we have laws regarding licensing sales of blades and knives (Firearms Act) for good reason, yet many 14yr old boys shave and many girls shave their legs.
So why do people believe legislation for sex will work? It hasn't up until now. You cannot write laws to control people's thoughts and feelings (unless you like fascism, which is so self defeating you must be an idiot) so why waste time and resources?
Surely we would be better off trying to encourage children to talk about sex as often as possible, IT IS part of their lives no matter how uncomfortable that makes you feel, so instead of acting so damn victorian, we should encourage kids to communicate with parents and older, more experienced relatives about all their sex lives, no matter how young.

Yes that's right, but the law is the law. And ignorance of the girl's age has never been an excuse for paedophilia now has it.

Children lie to get alcohol and cigarettes, but it doesn't stop the retailer getting nicked.

Originally posted by JoePritchard
Perhaps we need to be asking what sort of parental influence and control was operating when 16 year olds (and younger - the recent Bishop Auckland / Durham case) are getting pregnant and WANTING an abortion.

There is a serious collapse of values here - anyone bleating about there offspring getting an abortion and not being informed should perhaps ask why their daughter was having sex at 14 or 15 without their knowledge.

Joe

Here here!
Surely the parents in this case were chavs? Who would be angry about their child not only having the good sense to seek advice from a responsible adult but that they also considered the consequences and took positive action, a little late maybe but all good signs that the child had realised the error of their ways? Did her mother want her to keep the kid so the girl could live the rest of her life on benefits and CSA & not improve herself?

Originally posted by markham
Yes that's right, but the law is the law. And ignorance of the girl's age has never been an excuse for paedophilia now has it.

So, did you ask to see the birth certificate of every girl you've ever fancied (assuming you are a straight male) before you'd talk to them?

No, I got to know them first!! Never got one pregnant by TALKING to them though. This the new type of oral sex?

Just to clarify my opinion.

I'd want to know under what circumstances she got pregnant. Was she raped, drugged, or was the father someone who one would expect to know her age etc.

Hope its clear now, cos I'm not putting it across very well am I.:(

Originally posted by markham
Just to clarify my opinion.

I'd want to know under what circumstances she got pregnant. Was she raped, drugged, or was the father someone who one would expect to know her age etc.

Hope its clear now, cos I'm not putting it across very well am I.:(

1 night stand - ever had one?

No, I haven't.

I'm simply looking at the other options here as stated in my previous post.

It may be a honest mistake by the bloke, or it may be statutory rape. I'd want to know what happened to my daughter, that's all.

So, a lad asks a girl if he may buy her a drink, she agrees. They get drunk together, go home together, sleep together. She turns out to be 15 and pregnant, and you think this is HIS fault? I don't know about you but I like to be chivalrous and a part of that is NOT to ask a ladies age, by being in a nightclub or other licensed premises one naturally assumes she is an adult.
If a girl under 16 gets pregnant, and providing the sex WAS consented to by both parties then I believe if anyone should be prosecuted then surely it should be the parents of the girl for not having done their job properly?

Originally posted by markham
No, I haven't.

I'm simply looking at the other options here as stated in my previous post.

It may be a honest mistake by the bloke, or it may be statutory rape. I'd want to know what happened to my daughter, that's all.

I understand this is hypothetical but. . .

1 poor you - what a boring life you've had!

2 if you were doing your job as a parent properly then you would know before it happened

2 cont. . . . or better still it wouldn't happen!

Sorry for the broken thought trails here guys! :D

God osiris, you're just not reading my posts are you.

I've already stated the other possible reasons that she could have gotten pregnant and which are all against the law. Situations in which she may not have consented. It is this that I'd want to find out about.

Originally posted by osiris
I understand this is hypothetical but. . .

1 poor you - what a boring life you've had!



No, not boring, just safe!!!!!

Originally posted by markham
God osiris, you're just not reading my posts are you.

I've already stated the other possible reasons that she could have gotten pregnant and which are all against the law. Situations in which she may not have consented. It is this that I'd want to find out about.

Yes I'm reading them but you are not thinking about what I'm saying, a good parent knows where their child is most of the time, who they are with, and what sort of friends their child has. I only hope you are not a parent, because you clearly don't understand that in order to prevent a child from coming to harm, one must take active and advance action, not retrospective jusctice!

osiris, are you a parent. I do hope not.

As a parent of 2 children and 2 adults, i think when we become parents we should have the right to know exactly what happens to them until the age of 18 when they legally become an adult.

If we are supposed to make sure they attend school and we can be taken to court for criminal damage they do and if they get married or join the army they have to have a parents signature because they are under age then why should we be excluded if they get pregnant and want an abortion.

I know as a mum i would stand by my daughter, whatever happened but that does not make it right for others to exclude my parental rights.
You are asking for trouble if those in authority can pick and choose what parents are responsible for.

When i was 16 the fear of getting pregnant and your parents knowing was enough for you to take responsibility for yourself. Now if you get pregnant you can have an abortion without your parents knowing. There is no fear in getting pregnant because no one never need know.

Originally posted by markham
No, not boring, just safe!!!!!

Well, each to their own! But I feel it should be noted that 1 might stands are just as safe as long term relationships:
1 a condom has no guarantee that it will work better if you sleep with someone you have dated for a while first
2 your partner may already have something and having been out with them a few times before you sleep together won't protect you although you may get a few more early warning signs
3 no-one is guaranteed to be faithful, irrespective of the high regard we hold them in
4 how can we learn to be the best lovers for our partners without a range of experiences
5 the human psyche is not built to be with only one person for one's whole life and although older generations seem to produce stable monogamous relationships the fact of the matter is that people have been sleeping around forever and the image of monogamy was upheld due to Victorian beliefs which were so obviously hypocritical and are now considered out-dated

Originally posted by osiris
Yes I'm reading them but you are not thinking about what I'm saying, a good parent knows where their child is most of the time, who they are with, and what sort of friends their child has. I only hope you are not a parent, because you clearly don't understand that in order to prevent a child from coming to harm, one must take active and advance action, not retrospective jusctice!


ARE YOU A PARENT?

I AM A PARENT. THE PARENT OF THREE LADS. ALL IN THE TOP STREAM AT SCHOOL. THE OLDEST ONE ABOUT TO START COLLEGE. NONE OF THEM HAVE EVER BEEN IN TROUBLE. WHERE ARE THEY NOW? ALL IN THE BACK GARDEN, PLAYING BADMINTON. RECENTLY TWO OF THEM WERE MUGGED. IS THAT THE FAULT OF A NEGLIGENT PARENT? OR SHOULD I HAVE NOT ALLOWED MY 14 + 16 YEAR OLD SONS OUT ON THEIR OWN?

THIS THREAD IS SUPPOSED TO BE DISCUSSING WHETHER A PARENT SHOULD BE INFORMED IF THEIR DAUGHTER HAS AN ABORTION. I REPEAT MY ANSWER. YES THEY SHOULD!!! IF ONLY FOR THE REASONS STATED BY ROSIE.

:mad:

Originally posted by rosie
osiris, are you a parent. I do hope not.

As a parent of 2 children and 2 adults, i think when we become parents we should have the right to know exactly what happens to them until the age of 18 when they legally become an adult.

If we are supposed to make sure they attend school and we can be taken to court for criminal damage they do and if they get married or join the army they have to have a parents signature because they are under age then why should we be excluded if they get pregnant and want an abortion.

I know as a mum i would stand by my daughter, whatever happened but that does not make it right for others to exclude my parental rights.
You are asking for trouble if those in authority can pick and choose what parents are responsible for.

When i was 16 the fear of getting pregnant and your parents knowing was enough for you to take responsibility for yourself. Now if you get pregnant you can have an abortion without your parents knowing. There is no fear in getting pregnant because no one never need know.

You seem like a responsible parent but I think you have missed my point. Yes, the parents should be responsible for whether their child gets pregnant or not, has an abortion or not! That is exactly my point, the parents were not concerned about the preganancy but the abortion.
Surely if they were responsible, the girl would not have gotten pregnant?
But do you really think it was in the best interests of any child of 14 to have a child of her own?

Originally posted by osiris
Well, each to their own! But I feel it should be noted that 1 might stands are just as safe as long term relationships:
1 a condom has no guarantee that it will work better if you sleep with someone you have dated for a while first
2 your partner may already have something and having been out with them a few times before you sleep together won't protect you although you may get a few more early warning signs
3 no-one is guaranteed to be faithful, irrespective of the high regard we hold them in
4 how can we learn to be the best lovers for our partners without a range of experiences
5 the human psyche is not built to be with only one person for one's whole life and although older generations seem to produce stable monogamous relationships the fact of the matter is that people have been sleeping around forever and the image of monogamy was upheld due to Victorian beliefs which were so obviously hypocritical and are now considered out-dated

What the hell are you on about?

Can we just get back to the purpose of this thread? With your permission of course.:loopy:

Originally posted by markham
ARE YOU A PARENT?

I AM A PARENT. THE PARENT OF THREE LADS. ALL IN THE TOP STREAM AT SCHOOL. THE OLDEST ONE ABOUT TO START COLLEGE. NONE OF THEM HAVE EVER BEEN IN TROUBLE. WHERE ARE THEY NOW? ALL IN THE BACK GARDEN, PLAYING BADMINTON. RECENTLY TWO OF THEM WERE MUGGED. IS THAT THE FAULT OF A NEGLIGENT PARENT? OR SHOULD I HAVE NOT ALLOWED MY 14 + 16 YEAR OLD SONS OUT ON THEIR OWN?

THIS THREAD IS SUPPOSED TO BE DISCUSSING WHETHER A PARENT SHOULD BE INFORMED IF THEIR DAUGHTER HAS AN ABORTION. I REPEAT MY ANSWER. YES THEY SHOULD!!! IF ONLY FOR THE REASONS STATED BY ROSIE.

:mad:

3 things:
1 - firstly I am sorry to hear about your sons, however I don't believe they were mugged by friends so this situation is different to that of pregnancy which requires a little more time and privacy than a street mugging
2 - the parents were informed in the case raised by JoeP of the parents in Bishop Auckland, but they were informed after the girl had decided on an abortion and they were annoyed that they weren't who she confided in. Why didn' she? Because she felt she couldn't trust them. That is not a sign of good parenting
3 - They wanted to convince her to keep the baby!!! How is THAT responsible?

This is such a complex and emotionaly fraught subject I kind of think that the law is perhaps too blunt a tool to deal with it? I tend to think (and this may be different if I had children) age of consent should be there as a protective guideline and contraventions dealt with on a case by case basis.

I have to say though its rather sad that the age of consent is seen as a deadline by which you must have sex rather than a safety guideline...

Originally posted by evildrneil
This is such a complex and emotionaly fraught subject I kind of think that the law is perhaps too blunt a tool to deal with it? I tend to think (and this may be different if I had children) age of consent should be there as a protective guideline and contraventions dealt with on a case by case basis.

I have to say though its rather sad that the age of consent is seen as a deadline by which you must have sex rather than a safety guideline...

Can you legislate for emotion or thought? No!

So a guideline seems more sensible than the legal structures in place but given the high rate of teenage pregnancy, surely we should open up lines of communication with kids, however possible, so they can understand the consequences of their actions and are able to get perspectives on things which their parents tell them are taboo.
Some other cultures are far more open about sex, especially between parent and child. Given sexual hormones and urges can kick in around age seven is it realistic to ask children and young developing adults to try to ignore not only their instincts but also their darwinian purpose for existance?
Can you really say to someone "ignore how you feel!"? Moreover do you think thay will listen or hide it away!?

osiris,

I appreciate what you are trying to put across. However, all parents have a duty of care to their children, and that duty includes getting involved in the childs wellbeing, both physical and mental.

Whether the child gets pregnant or is injured in some way it is the parent's right to know how it happened, and why. Primarily so that the parent can deal with it on behalf of the child.

In the case of an under 16 girl getting pregnant, which could happen in under 2 minutes in the case of rape, don't you think that the parents should be made aware of it so they can deal with it, and possibly ensure that it doesn't happen again?

And as for them wanting to keep the baby, isn't it possible that they disagree with abortion on religious grounds.

There's so many permutations here, but to blame the parents out of hand for a child pregnancy without knowing in what circumstances the pregnancy occurred is jumping the gun a bit.

OK if the girl is a little slapper and has a long history of flaunting it, then the parents should have been aware, but if the girl was a homely and decent sort, then the parents couldn't possibly have foreseen the situation and should be made aware of what has happened.

No i don`t think its right for any child to have a child.

I would hope my daughter waits to have sex and a child until she is mature enough, but for some families their child gets pregnant all too early and what happens next should always be in consultation with a parent or parents.

I agree rosie.

I think that is what I've been trying to put across for the past hour, but somehow I'm hitting a brick wall.

Basically, it should NEVER happen, but when it does the parents should ALWAYS be informed before any medical procedure is carried out.

Originally posted by markham


And as for them wanting to keep the baby, isn't it possible that they disagree with abortion on religious grounds.


..that opens a whole new debate though, on whether it is right to force religious beliefs on the child.

It's easy to say "yes, until they are old enough to decide otherwise, then they should follow their parent's religion" in this circumstance. But they you'd also be saying that a child should be denied a life saving transplant/transfusion if the parents were Jehovah's Witnesses - is it so easy to say that then?

Like I say, that's a whole new debate really, but no issue is ever a single-issue. But it might be better to leave the religious/abortion angle out.

Its ok Sguiggs, I wasn't arguing for or against that particular angle, just putting in one too many 'what ifs'.:thumbsup:

NP: Just pointing out the issues involved with that particalar angle.

Personally, under 16's, YES the parents should be informed. The parents should also be offered information and support for dealing with a difficult issue as part and parcel of this.

16-18, the parents should not be informed. However, support and guidance should be offered including discussion to help the girl decide whether to seek support from her family or "go it alone"

I know we would all like our children not to have sex until they are older (maybe 30?????) but the question is not how did they get pregnant but should we have the right to know about the abortion when everybody else (teachers, social workers, etc) already know.

We all know that kids are having underage sex but we are held accountable by the law for their behaviour in regard to antisocial behaviour and truanting, but penalised by ignorance of their abortion/pregnancy. The law and society cannot have it both ways. We are either responsible and should know everything or we are not responsible for their behaviour or anything.:confused:

Originally posted by markham
ARE YOU A PARENT?

I AM A PARENT. THE PARENT OF THREE LADS. ALL IN THE TOP STREAM AT SCHOOL. THE OLDEST ONE ABOUT TO START COLLEGE. NONE OF THEM HAVE EVER BEEN IN TROUBLE. WHERE ARE THEY NOW? ALL IN THE BACK GARDEN, PLAYING BADMINTON. RECENTLY TWO OF THEM WERE MUGGED. IS THAT THE FAULT OF A NEGLIGENT PARENT? OR SHOULD I HAVE NOT ALLOWED MY 14 + 16 YEAR OLD SONS OUT ON THEIR OWN?

THIS THREAD IS SUPPOSED TO BE DISCUSSING WHETHER A PARENT SHOULD BE INFORMED IF THEIR DAUGHTER HAS AN ABORTION. I REPEAT MY ANSWER. YES THEY SHOULD!!! IF ONLY FOR THE REASONS STATED BY ROSIE.

:mad:

Please stop shouting, it's annoying to read.

Anyway back on topic.... If the young lass is only about 14 she shouldn't even be physically capable of pregnancy IMO, and as for the lad who did it, if I were a parent I would shoot first and ask questions later in his case.

So yes, the Mum and Dad should definitely be told, and leave it up to them to decide what to do to the "father", who is probably only 16 at the most himself :loopy:

Young teenagers cannot handle babies, they're not much more than young children themselves.


:mad:

Originally posted by Rich
Please stop shouting, it's annoying to read.







Sorry Rich,

Had to shout because a certain poster was having trouble hearing me.:(

Originally posted by Rich
If the young lass is only about 14 she shouldn't even be physically capable of pregnancy IMO

Unfortunately biology isn't a great respector of peoples opinions, and the best solution seems to be to accept that and change your opinion to fit in with biology.

The same can be said of most branches of science, so it's not just biology being unreasonable.

Originally posted by markham
Sorry Rich,

Had to shout because a certain poster was having trouble hearing me.:(

Oh OK then, sorry I told you off ;)

Originally posted by Rich
... and as for the lad who did it, if I were a parent I would shoot first and ask questions later in his case.
I know the father should take some responsibility but they don't deserve to be purely blamed for what happened. It takes two to tango, as the saying goes.

Chris.

I don't speak directly from experience, but until your child turns 18, you make their decisions for them! I have a 14 year old daughter, and she knows that she should wait until she is at least married, if not seriously involved with someone, until she should have kids. If my daughter was to ever get pregnant, hopefully I don't jynx her, before she turned 18, I would want her to be comfortable with telling me that she was pregnant. Abortion IS murder. I believe that laws should be changed so that abortion is banned, but since it's not in my hands, the age requirement should be raised to 18!

Originally posted by Lily04
I don't speak directly from experience, but until your child turns 18, you make their decisions for them! I have a 14 year old daughter, and she knows that she should wait until she is at least married, if not seriously involved with someone, until she should have kids. If my daughter was to ever get pregnant, hopefully I don't jynx her, before she turned 18, I would want her to be comfortable with telling me that she was pregnant. Abortion IS murder. I believe that laws should be changed so that abortion is banned, but since it's not in my hands, the age requirement should be raised to 18!

I'm not sure on the age for abortion, firstly. If my daughter was in this situation and cou;ldn't talk to me (hopefully she would be able to if I do my job right) I would hope that there was some other sensible person she could talk to. If it meant she had a termination and it was in her best interest, I would be Ok with that I think.

An abortion is not murder.

Originally posted by Lily04
I don't speak directly from experience, but until your child turns 18, you make their decisions for them! I have a 14 year old daughter, and she knows that she should wait until she is at least married, if not seriously involved with someone, until she should have kids. If my daughter was to ever get pregnant, hopefully I don't jynx her, before she turned 18, I would want her to be comfortable with telling me that she was pregnant. Abortion IS murder. I believe that laws should be changed so that abortion is banned, but since it's not in my hands, the age requirement should be raised to 18!

it appears to me that you would wish to be informed by your daughter so that you could force her to keep the child as you hold strong views on the subject of abortion.

For this reason alone i believe that girls of whatever age should have access to the service without the prior knowledge of their parents in order to allow them to make their own decision.

ps - we did this debate a few months back, you might try the search function.

Originally posted by Cyclone

ps - we did this debate a few months back, you might try the search function.

And Pps - shouldn't this have been started General Chit-Chat; this is starting to p. me off - people a) not using the search facility and b) people starting threads in an area that is not designated for it.

Moan over(!)

Alex

Ppps - sorry if I have trampled on your toes on your second post :) - I am not that mean, really I'm not :)

In fact - here is that thread: http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14743&highlight=Abortion

Originally posted by Lily04
. If my daughter was to ever get pregnant, hopefully I don't jynx her, before she turned 18, I would want her to be comfortable with telling me that she was pregnant. Abortion IS murder.

Perhaps its for these reasons that a teenage girl should be able to go to her GP and arrange a termination without her parents consent.

I'm sure I would have felt really comfortable telling my mother I was pregnant if I knew she was going to call me a murderer for electing to have a termination.

I think the parents should know i do belive that half of these abortions are all peer pressure of familys finding out ....
If my daughter ever came to me (dont need to worrie at minutes she not 2 till 5th dec) i would be flattered that she could talk to me,
I would ask her what she wants to do a support her 100 %
I really want to be my daughters friend aswell as her mum ....
I think the children that get pregnant at young ages need a adult to talk to them because the though off mother hood scared me and i was 20 its always nice to have someone to talk to that is a bit wiser and knows more about these things.
I belive that most kids think its a tablet and it goes away ,

kids need to understand the consequences of their actions, that includes boys too. there should be better education about it in schools and a bit of help for parents too. sex is everywhere nowadays and kids find out about it, younger and younger. does anyone remember the "birds and bees" talk as a kid?

you can't assume that all parents will feel like you though. If they have strong views of their own they may well override the wants and/or best interest of the girl to satisfy their own morality.

Originally posted by ladyovmanor
I think the parents should know i do belive that half of these abortions are all peer pressure of familys finding out ....
If my daughter ever came to me (dont need to worrie at minutes she not 2 till 5th dec) i would be flattered that she could talk to me,
I would ask her what she wants to do a support her 100 %
I really want to be my daughters friend aswell as her mum ....
I think the children that get pregnant at young ages need a adult to talk to them because the though off mother hood scared me and i was 20 its always nice to have someone to talk to that is a bit wiser and knows more about these things.
I belive that most kids think its a tablet and it goes away ,

therefore there should be education for parents! kids dont come with books

Originally posted by NATALIESHEFF
therefore there should be education for parents! kids dont come with books

you can't educate someone into not believing that abortion is murder if that's how they feel.

sex education, so the problem doesnt arise in first place

sex education is a joke... if its the same as it was when I was in school... which isnt all that many years ago...

in year 6 (when your 11) you have some random video about the birds and the bee's about reproduction... and your all so young you find it funny and giggle :P

then I think we did it again in year 8 or 9 (13/14yr old)... except this time they pass round some condoms and femadoms and other random contraceptives to look at... then one or two kids get to put a condom on some plastic "penis" that looks nothing at ALL like a dick... but oh well...

and thats all we ever did on sex education, apart from about the organs in Biology...

anyways I dont know whether parents should know whether their child has had an abortion... part of me says they should, but part of me thinks that the child should tell them...

afterall... if the child is responsible enough to own up to their "mistake" to their parents, then they obviously arent responsible and grown up enough to have a child so I see no point giving the parents a chance to stop them...

Originally posted by Cyclone
you can't assume that all parents will feel like you though. If they have strong views of their own they may well override the wants and/or best interest of the girl to satisfy their own morality.

i think its scary enough for the kids why jugde them dont you think they have lernt the hard way as it is

Heck yes a parent should know! I have a 14 year old daughter, and all I can say is that she does not get to make all of her decisions by herself until she is 18. Abortion is murder. If you are grown-up enough to spread your legs, you are grown-up enough to have that child. In the case of rape, if you really don't want that child, give it up for adoption, because most people can't have children!

Originally posted by Lily04
Heck yes a parent should know! I have a 14 year old daughter, and all I can say is that she does not get to make all of her decisions by herself until she is 18. Abortion is murder. If you are grown-up enough to spread your legs, you are grown-up enough to have that child. In the case of rape, if you really don't want that child, give it up for adoption, because most people can't have children!

Very helpful attitude. If a girl is old enough to spread her legs she's old enough to have the resultant child ???? Biologically maybe she is. Emotionally - I doubt it very much. And as for having to carry the baby of a rapist - can you imagine the emotional trauma that would inflict on a woman?

Originally posted by Lily04
Heck yes a parent should know! I have a 14 year old daughter, and all I can say is that she does not get to make all of her decisions by herself until she is 18. Abortion is murder. If you are grown-up enough to spread your legs, you are grown-up enough to have that child. In the case of rape, if you really don't want that child, give it up for adoption, because most people can't have children!

you illustrate my point exactly.

you have a moral view on abortion, and you are prepared if you ever have to to enforce that morality on your daughter whether she agrees with it or not.
Whether someone is ready to be sexually active or not has virtually no bearing on whether they are ready or capable of raising a child.

Natailie, yes sex education must be part of the solution. But there will always be cases where it's not enough, and at that point Lily demonstrates why girls should be able to take medical advice and treatment without involving their parents if they wish too. No one is saying that they have too though, they can obviously involve their parents if they wish.

I agree with both cyclone and beckb! I'm strongly against abortion. In the case of being raped, it's different for each women. The woman would have emotional problems with having her rapist's baby growing inside of her, but she needs to think about the child and not the rapist. I believe that life starts @ conception. I am a very religious person and if you are too, read Genesis 35:11 KJV! Enough said!

It isn't always women that are raped though is it? Girls are raped too!

I don't think religion enters into it these days. The bible is full of wonderful stories/metaphors. Like beating your slave if they don't do as you tell them, and God smiting anyone that upsets him.

I'm afriad the politics is the new religion now. Christianity was a way to make people behave by making them fear the unknown and God didn't write it. Now we have the goverment and laws.

Originally posted by Lily04
I agree with both cyclone and beckb! I'm strongly against abortion. In the case of being raped, it's different for each women. The woman would have emotional problems with having her rapist's baby growing inside of her, but she needs to think about the child and not the rapist. I believe that life starts @ conception. I am a very religious person and if you are too, read Genesis 35:11 KJV! Enough said!

you agree with me? Are you sure? I'm saying that girls should be able to get an abortion without their parents knowledge, specifically because of parents like you.
I'm not trying to hide the fact that i'm 'pro choice' as it were.

Originally posted by Lily04
I believe that life starts @ conception. I am a very religious person and if you are too, read Genesis 35:11 KJV! Enough said!

Agree with you about Life, Lily, but...

"And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;"

...nothing there about abortion, and anyway the exhortation is quite specifically to Jacob, not humanity in general.

Abortion, as an easy way out of a difficult situation is murder in my book, but there is no need of a biblical condemnation of it, even if you could find a specific quote dealing with it .

Skimming through the posts that i have seen on this thread I have not noticed one from the point of view of a 16 year old girl.

As some people on here already know, I am currently pregnant myself and am keeping my child which I am, hopefully with the help of the father going to raise to the very best of my ability, irrespective of my age.

That all may be irrelevant but I was booked into the hospital for an abortion, without my mum or dad knowing. This however changed when my mum did find out. The only reason I could really justify to myself killing my child was to save my mum from finding out etc. I think that in a way it could be better if parents are informed of choices that are made by their children like this but I definatly agree that it is best the way it is now, there is no way i would have dared to go to see a nurse if I had known my mum might find out, making the whole situation much worse in the end.

Oh and before anyone asks: I am no chav, i'n not thick as many people think you must be to get into that situation, have never been in trouble over anything much and definatly have never slept around.

Yes, parents should know. As a parent of a boy I would want to know of any operation he was having. As far as I am aware operations are by consent of the parent. I'm sure I will be corrected if I am wrong.

I can understand the some children aren't able to communicate with their parents and often make decisions that can affect their lives forever. I am not condoning abortion nor am I against it. It all depends on individual cases but I still don't think the under 16's should have abortions without parental guidance and support. There are plenty of support networks available these days so that shouldn't be an issue.

Originally posted by missb
Yes, parents should know. As a parent of a boy I would want to know of any operation he was having. As far as I am aware operations are by consent of the parent. I'm sure I will be corrected if I am wrong.

I can understand the some children aren't able to communicate with their parents and often make decisions that can affect their lives forever. I am not condoning abortion nor am I against it. It all depends on individual cases but I still don't think the under 16's should have abortions without parental guidance and support. There are plenty of support networks available these days so that shouldn't be an issue.

how does that work when the parent considers abortion murder? The child isn't going to have much of a choice then are they.

ABORTION IS MURDER! If you kill the fetus while it is in you, you are killing another human being. I know what the bible says Greybeard, I am well aware of what it says! I am a youth preacher @ my church, so I do know a lot about what the bible says. If GOD wanted us to abort our children, he would have done it to eve, but he didn't. I am only one person speaking though, but others feel the same way way as I do. If you don't like what I say then don't read what I'm writing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

agreed abortion not right, unless girl has been asssaulted. there are so many people out there who have difficulty having kids and it just doesnt seem right. kids (and some stupid adults) use protection! dont rely on pills and suctions! and never rely on a man

I find it quite sad that kids are having kids but unfortunately it happens.If i had a child whom this happened to i would hope that she would feel confident enough to tell me herself and i would give her advice on all the options and support her.I would also encourage her to talk to family planning,advisors etc.Unfortunately some children can't talk to their parents or they know that their parents have such strong views that they wouldn't listen to them - this then leads to either the child having an abortion behind their parent's back and having no support or they usually just don't tell anyone till it's too late.This is just my personal opinion.

its alright if they have it though - free house and benefits

Originally posted by NATALIESHEFF
its alright if they have it though - free house and benefits

Obviously not a parent then Nataliesheff!

Originally posted by Lily04
ABORTION IS MURDER! If you kill the fetus while it is in you, you are killing another human being. I know what the bible says Greybeard, I am well aware of what it says! I am a youth preacher @ my church, so I do know a lot about what the bible says. If GOD wanted us to abort our children, he would have done it to eve, but he didn't. I am only one person speaking though, but others feel the same way way as I do. If you don't like what I say then don't read what I'm writing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank goodness my children don't attend church.

Originally posted by beckb
Obviously not a parent then Nataliesheff!
no just someone who gets annoyed when young girls get preg on purpose to get a house. and yes i have heard this done. and yes im not a parent and yes i know its only some girls

Originally posted by Lily04
ABORTION IS MURDER! If you kill the fetus while it is in you, you are killing another human being. I know what the bible says Greybeard, I am well aware of what it says! I am a youth preacher @ my church, so I do know a lot about what the bible says. If GOD wanted us to abort our children, he would have done it to eve, but he didn't. I am only one person speaking though, but others feel the same way way as I do. If you don't like what I say then don't read what I'm writing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ermmm that hardly a rational argument! For a start Eve didn't exist so it would have been hard to have any sort of abortion. To extend your argument, God didn't sanction computers in the bible so why are you using one. Also as in the majority of first pregnancies the foetus is spontaneously aborted within the first couple of weeks you could (with some justification) argue that God is pro-abortion!?!?

no just someone who gets annoyed when young girls get preg on purpose to get a house. and yes i have heard this done. and yes im not a parent and yes i know its only some girls

So abortion is "wrong" but so is keeping the baby...

It's a mistake to think any woman who feels her only option is to have an abortion makes it lightly. If you're really sure it would never be an option for you then fair enough. I'd hope though that if you ever listened to someone who's made the agonising decision to end a pregnancy that you'd think twice before being so judgemental.

The baby is never ever forgotten. Every year around the time s/he would have been born is a painful time & people standing in their ivory towers lecturing on morality only causes more pain to people who are already grieving quietly.




If GOD wanted us to abort our children, he would have done it to eve, but he didn't.

Personally I'd say "GOD" does it all the time - spontaneous abortion (another term for miscarriage) occurs all the time in nature.

There's plenty in the Bible about judging others too.

Sometimes it costs you nothing to stop & put yourself in someone else's shoes rather than rant & rave about rights & wrongs as you see them. There but for the grace of God & all that...

i dont agree with abortion and are we still on about kids here? adults should know better. and yes there are other options - adoption. and i do know girls (2) who have gone htru this, i still dont agree, dont get urself into the position if you cant handle the consequences

Originally posted by Lily04
ABORTION IS MURDER! If you kill the fetus while it is in you, you are killing another human being. I know what the bible says Greybeard, I am well aware of what it says! I am a youth preacher @ my church, so I do know a lot about what the bible says. If GOD wanted us to abort our children, he would have done it to eve, but he didn't. I am only one person speaking though, but others feel the same way way as I do. If you don't like what I say then don't read what I'm writing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

equally if you don't like people disagreeing i'd stop posting (we all disagree about most things, it gives us something to post about).
Seriously, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and i'm entitled to try and change it, as mine is correct (where's the tongue in cheek smiley?).

We do seem to be changing topic slightly, but when did that ever put us off.

I'd have said that abortion is one way of 'dealing with the consequences' natalie. If someone is pro-choice, why would they put themselves through 9 months of pregnancy with the intention of giving the baby away.

It all comes down to a personal decision about when a foetus becomes a baby, or is 'alive' or whatever. So there's really little point in people trying to impose their views on everyone else (Despite what i said about my view being right earlier).

Originally posted by Lily04
ABORTION IS MURDER! If you kill the fetus while it is in you, you are killing another human being. I know what the bible says Greybeard, I am well aware of what it says! I am a youth preacher @ my church, so I do know a lot about what the bible says. If GOD wanted us to abort our children, he would have done it to eve, but he didn't. I am only one person speaking though, but others feel the same way way as I do. If you don't like what I say then don't read what I'm writing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hosea 9:14.

Give them, O Lord: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb (an abortion) and dry breasts.


But it is ok to do it to your enemies??? according to the bible.

If God didn't want you to have abortions thenwhere is the 11th comandment? Thou shalt not commit abortion.

There is absolutly no point in using the bible as your tool to prove that abortion is wrong. The bible is full of crimes that God said was ok to commit!

Originally posted by NATALIESHEFF
i dont agree with abortion and are we still on about kids here? adults should know better. and yes there are other options - adoption. and i do know girls (2) who have gone htru this, i still dont agree, dont get urself into the position if you cant handle the consequences

Its ok saying if you can't handle the consequences etc etc..
These are kids remember. Part of growing up is to be able to learn from your mistakes. Removing the option of terminating an unwanted pregnancy will only serve to punish the girl and the resulting baby in the long term. (And pushing up the numbers claiming benefits and council houses no doubt!)

Adoption is not the magic cure for an unwanted pregnancy any more than abortion is. Having given away the baby she was compelled to give birth to because no other alternative was available to her, do you think that live just goes back to normal?
How do you think she would cope with that?

What about ten years down the line when that baby wants to meet its real parents and can't find them or they still don't want to know? Finding out you are adopted is not easy to deal with either

Thank goodness my children don't attend church.

Why deny your children one of the few things that people today can still believe in? But, if you at least believe in GOD, then, I can't really say anything!

Originally posted by beckb
Its ok saying if you can't handle the consequences etc etc..
These are kids remember. Part of growing up is to be able to learn from your mistakes. Removing the option of terminating an unwanted pregnancy will only serve to punish the girl and the resulting baby in the long term. (And pushing up the numbers claiming benefits and council houses no doubt!)

Adoption is not the magic cure for an unwanted pregnancy any more than abortion is. Having given away the baby she was compelled to give birth to because no other alternative was available to her, do you think that live just goes back to normal?
How do you think she would cope with that?

What about ten years down the line when that baby wants to meet its real parents and can't find them or they still don't want to know? Finding out you are adopted is not easy to deal with either

Abortion kills a chance for a women to ever hae kids again. Why would you want to kill one baby, and then later find out you can never conceive again!!! Were you adopted? Are you speaking from a foster child's point of view? If not, you don't know what you are talking about! I've been there and done all of that. I was raised by a very loving family, and guess what, i found my real parents. I don't have a grudge against them! Talk what you really know beckb!!!!!

Originally posted by Lily04
Abortion kills a chance for a women to ever hae kids again.


We're all entitled to our opinions but can you please try and stick to the facts Yes..as with all medical procedures things can go wrong sometimes but to say that all abortions means that woman cannot conceive later is factually complete and utter rubbish!

Some people/children may read this stuff and actually think your posting is right - this is different from your opinion (which btw I don't agree with)

Originally posted by Lily04
Abortion kills a chance for a women to ever hae kids again. Why would you want to kill one baby, and then later find out you can never conceive again!!! Were you adopted? Are you speaking from a foster child's point of view? If not, you don't know what you are talking about! I've been there and done all of that. I was raised by a very loving family, and guess what, i found my real parents. I don't have a grudge against them! Talk what you really know beckb!!!!!

Firstly - I do know what I am talking about with regard to adoption Lily04, having found out that I was adopted at 13 I do have some idea what I am talking about here.

Secondly, there is a RISK of not being able to conceive again following a termination procedure and yes I can see that it would cause a woman trauma had she terminated a previous pregnancy and was then unable to conceive later in life because of it, particularly if there are people like you around saying it serves her right.

Go bite on something beck! If there were so many people like you on the face of the earth no one would ever want to have kids!

Originally posted by Lily04
Go bite on something beck! If there were so many people like you on the face of the earth no one would ever want to have kids!

Go bite on something?????

I am not anti-children. I am a mother and completely adore my son as any mother would. Because I support a woman's right (and a teenage girl's right) to choose whether or not to continue with a pregnancy and don't subscribe to your "Abortion is Murder" view that makes me a bad person who puts people of having kids does it ?

I may be going right of Topic here but I think until everyone calms down mentally (and emotionally in some posts) in this discussion this thread should be closed for a 'Cooling off Period' otherwise this will go into a slanging match left, right and centre!

Just my opinion, this is boiling over and it won't be long before vast amounts of personal insults start being posted..

Interesting to see Lily's demonstration of what " Christian loving kindess" means to her.

Am sure we'll all be inspired ...

Originally posted by Lily04
Go bite on something beck! If there were so many people like you on the face of the earth no one would ever want to have kids!

Well that's very Christian of you!! I find the fact you are a religious youth leader scarier by the moment! Are you CRB vetted???

Originally posted by Deejay
I may be going right of Topic here but I think until everyone calms down mentally (and emotionally in some posts) in this discussion this thread should be closed for a 'Cooling off Period' otherwise this will go into a slanging match left, right and centre!

Just my opinion, this is boiling over and it won't be long before vast amounts of personal insults start being posted..

I agree with you. I have my beliefs, and I am sticking by them regardless of whether or not someone agrees or disagrees!

Originally posted by Lily04
I agree with you. I have my beliefs, and I am sticking by them regardless of whether or not someone agrees or disagrees!

And from the replies I read no one questions your beliefs, People always will view abortions differently.. Being a bloke I can't comment on the topic etc..

Found something here for you,

http://www.newsmutiny.com/4/laura.htm

Originally posted by Lily04
ABORTION IS MURDER! If you kill the fetus while it is in you, you are killing another human being. I know what the bible says Greybeard, I am well aware of what it says! I am a youth preacher @ my church, so I do know a lot about what the bible says. If GOD wanted us to abort our children, he would have done it to eve, but he didn't. I am only one person speaking though, but others feel the same way way as I do. If you don't like what I say then don't read what I'm writing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This whole thing is a pointless argument. Almost all Roman Catholics, for instance, will be against abortions. Quoting some ridiculous fairy story from the Old Testament (God & Eve) does nothing to support anyone's views.

Lily04, your comments on here only confirm everything I already know about so-called Christians. I'm off to worship Ra!

Originally posted by bonny
Found something here for you,

http://www.newsmutiny.com/4/laura.htm

Your baby could grow to be the next Dick Cheney? Thats supposed to be anti-abortion!?!?

Originally posted by evildrneil
Your baby could grow to be the next Dick Cheney? Thats supposed to be anti-abortion!?!?

Ohhh, evil......... I expected more from you. Read it again and think like Chris Morris

Egad your not trying to imply that it was in some-way not entirely serious? Surely not!

Originally posted by evildrneil
Egad your not trying to imply that it was in some-way not entirely serious? Surely not!

Noooo, it's serious!!!

Thats OK then - I wouldn't want to think that you'r posting falsehoods on this fine forum :p

Parents should be informed of anything surgical under 18 that is happeneing to their children.

If there is a medical condition in the family and the surgeons have no idea about it, who gets the blame when a bigger problem is caused by the no- medical information on the form the child filled in.
Remember confidentiality, the family doctor is not allowed to tell the child anything his/her mum or dad has regarding a medical condition so they could not fill in that bit.

Originally posted by rosie
Parents should be informed of anything surgical under 18 that is happeneing to their children.

If there is a medical condition in the family and the surgeons have no idea about it, who gets the blame when a bigger problem is caused by the no- medical information on the form the child filled in.
Remember confidentiality, the family doctor is not allowed to tell the child anything his/her mum or dad has regarding a medical condition so they could not fill in that bit.

So, just wandering, are you for or against abortions in general!? ~Lily04~

Originally posted by osiris
So, a lad asks a girl if he may buy her a drink, she agrees. They get drunk together, go home together, sleep together. She turns out to be 15 and pregnant, and you think this is HIS fault? I don't know about you but I like to be chivalrous and a part of that is NOT to ask a ladies age, by being in a nightclub or other licensed premises one naturally assumes she is an adult.
If a girl under 16 gets pregnant, and providing the sex WAS consented to by both parties then I believe if anyone should be prosecuted then surely it should be the parents of the girl for not having done their job properly?

Two people would be responsible for this, the teenage girl and her parents. If the girl "thinks" that she is adult enough to spread her legs, then she is adult enough to suffer the consequences. She shouldn't scream "rape" as soon as she finds out she is pregnant, she should be slapped for lying to an innocent man and telling him that she was an adult.
~Lily04~

Originally posted by osiris
So, a lad asks a girl if he may buy her a drink, she agrees. They get drunk together, go home together, sleep together. She turns out to be 15 and pregnant, and you think this is HIS fault? I don't know about you but I like to be chivalrous and a part of that is NOT to ask a ladies age, by being in a nightclub or other licensed premises one naturally assumes she is an adult.
If a girl under 16 gets pregnant, and providing the sex WAS consented to by both parties then I believe if anyone should be prosecuted then surely it should be the parents of the girl for not having done their job properly?

Kids will be kids! If the underage teen lies then she should suffer the consequences. She lied about being and adult, so if she "thinks she is an adult, let her take up an adult role as a parent!!!

this is just reactionary rubbish based on your own twisted morality.

Whether a child or an adult someone who finds themselves with an unwanted pregnancy has every right (morally in my opinon, and legally by the laws of the land) to have a termination.

I fail to see why you keep associating having sex with being an adult, at 16 people can legally have sex, but at 26 i'm not ready to be a parent. It doesn't mean i'm not an adult.

Maybe people with strong religous beliefs should not be allowed to be parents as they presumably fill their own childrens heads with this rubbish.

God is something you can believe in if you like to switch off your rational mind and accept some mumbo jumbo about why we are all here. I'm sure it makes people feel safe and happy, but it's basically self delusion.

This is what Cyclone said:
I fail to see why you keep associating having sex with being an adult, at 16 people can legally have sex, but at 26 i'm not ready to be a parent. It doesn't mean i'm not an adult.

Maybe people with strong religous beliefs should not be allowed to be parents as they presumably fill their own childrens heads with this rubbish.


Lily04:
You missed mmy point completely, but that is alright. Not everyone is smart. And I fail to see how religious beliefs make someone unsuitable to be a parent at all.

Originally posted by Cyclone
it appears to me that you would wish to be informed by your daughter so that you could force her to keep the child as you hold strong views on the subject of abortion.

For this reason alone i believe that girls of whatever age should have access to the service without the prior knowledge of their parents in order to allow them to make their own decision.

ps - we did this debate a few months back, you might try the search function.

No, I would want my daughter to come to me and tell me whether she was pregnant. I wouldn't choose any decision for her, that would be up to her. She would make the decision whether or not she wanted to keep it.

i'll try to avoid descending into petty insult territory involving comments about smartness.

Based on all your previous comments, do you honestly expect me to believe that you would support your daughter if she told that she was pregnant and that she intended to have an abortion.
How does that fit in with your feeling that if she's old enough to have sex she is automatically old enough to be a parent (and not just old enough, but that she should then follow it through) or your view that abortion is murder?

That'd be pretty difficult to stomach wouldn't it, your own daughter being a murderer in your eyes.

Cyclone,

You can believe whatever you want to believe.

I have just heard on the news that the teenager who sparked off the controversy by having an abortion at 14 without her parents knowledge is pregnant again - at the grand old age of 15.

She is keeping the baby this time.

Originally posted by beckb
I have just heard on the news that the teenager who sparked off the controversy by having an abortion at 14 without her parents knowledge is pregnant again - at the grand old age of 15.

She is keeping the baby this time.

That is great news!
Just to clear up somethings. In my opinion, I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT ABORTION IS RIGHT, but I will not violate others beliefs! Everyone has a right to their own beliefs, and I apologize if I offended anyone in the process of my beliefs!

Originally posted by Lily04
That is great news!
Just to clear up somethings. In my opinion, I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT ABORTION IS RIGHT, but I will not violate others beliefs! Everyone has a right to their own beliefs, and I apologize if I offended anyone in the process of my beliefs!

why is that Great??

Originally posted by Lily04
Cyclone,

You can believe whatever you want to believe.

why thank you, that's so generous.

I'm not sure how a 15 year old girl being pregnant whether keeping the baby or not is great. It's another small tragedy that she's uneducated enough to get pregnant at that age, and in fact that she's even having sex at that age.

Originally posted by Cyclone
I'm not sure how a 15 year old girl being pregnant whether keeping the baby or not is great. It's another small tragedy that she's uneducated enough to get pregnant at that age, and in fact that she's even having sex at that age.

I am struggling to see why the news that this young girl is pregnant again is "great news" too Cyclone! Other than we now have proof that her reproductive system still works.

Having just seen the girl in question on the TV I have to say that great isn't the first word that sprang to mind...

she did seem a little "thick" on TV like she wouldnt have a clue what to do. Theres plenty of people the same age as her who would! but if she is going to be happy and the childs going to have a good life then who should stop her

Originally posted by f_g
she did seem a little "thick" on TV like she wouldnt have a clue what to do. Theres plenty of people the same age as her who would! but if she is going to be happy and the childs going to have a good life then who should stop her

is it going to have a good life, a "thick" teenage single mother. It's not a forumula with much hope.

she only appeared abit "thick" she might not be but hopefully she will grow up, she has got her parents to help aswell am sure they will help teach her to do things

Intelligence isn't really a prime requisite for a good parent - what was of more concern was her overwhelming attitude of "don't know, don't care" - doesn't really bode well for the degree of responsibility needed from a good parent.

I think it's terrible that this happened again,apparently the girl was,to quote her mother,'hell bent on getting pregnant'.I find it so sad that kids like this have no self-respect or hopes and dreams.Maybe i'm just too idealistic and naive but i think there must be more to life than this and to say 'it's great' is just irresponsible.

Being interrogated by Richard and Judy on live tv would terrify me and perhaps this girl isn't really as thick as she looks or came across. I only caught the last few minutes of it but I fear for the future of her baby based on what I saw of not only her but her mother.

What alarmed me most, other than the fact that her mother was parading her on television, was when she was hoping for a little girl. If history repeats itself she could be a grandparent before she's 30.

I wish her all the luck in the world because she is going to need it.

[QUOTE=osiris]So, a lad asks a girl if he may buy her a drink, she agrees. They get drunk together, go home together, sleep together. She turns out to be 15 and pregnant, and you think this is HIS fault? I don't know about you but I like to be chivalrous and a part of that is NOT to ask a ladies age, by being in a nightclub or other licensed premises one naturally assumes she is an adult.


Eh, yea it is HIS fault. I don't know if you have children but would you be happy if your son was meeting girls and sleeping with them on the same night, without getting to know them. And the daughter shouldn't be out in a club anyway, if she's under 18, never mind under 16.

Osiris, i'd feel sorry for your kids if you'd be happy with your son making underage girls pregnant. If a legal man has sex with an underage girl, he has broken the law and should be punished. simple as

So, a lad asks a girl if he may buy her a drink, she agrees. They get drunk together, go home together, sleep together. She turns out to be 15 and pregnant, and you think this is HIS fault? I don't know about you but I like to be chivalrous and a part of that is NOT to ask a ladies age, by being in a nightclub or other licensed premises one naturally assumes she is an adult.


Eh, yea it is HIS fault. I don't know if you have children but would you be happy if your son was meeting girls and sleeping with them on the same night, without getting to know them. And the daughter shouldn't be out in a club anyway, if she's under 18, never mind under 16.

Of course no blame attached to the girl at all?

Never mind the legal age of consent (16) or adulthood (18 ), I believe that people really should not have one night stands until they are emotionally old enough to deal with the consequences, inebriated or otherwise.
I'd suggest over the age of twenty so you can get some life experience first!

Sex as an act of love within an existing and committed relationship is a different matter entirely and hopefully discussions about the risks and contraception options would be part of the mutual decision to embark on sexual activity.

That is the essence of what I have encouraged my daughter to consider since she was old enough to have any discussions about sex (junior school, giggles about willies and all that :) ) . I am proud to say that she knows she can tell me anything (and often does) and will get only honest feedback, not judgement.

So, a lad asks a girl if he may buy her a drink, she agrees. They get drunk together, go home together, sleep together. She turns out to be 15 and pregnant, and you think this is HIS fault? I don't know about you but I like to be chivalrous and a part of that is NOT to ask a ladies age, by being in a nightclub or other licensed premises one naturally assumes she is an adult.
. [/B]

So, Chivalrous is not asking the girl's age......... but taking her home and shagging her after just meeting her and getting drunk in a club.

Thanks for clearing that one up. I was thinking chivalrous meant something else entirely... ;)

Chicken Monkey x