We have received the dreaded school admissions pack.

It states we have 3 choices, but really when it comes down to it I don't feel we have any, just the local comp. As, if our other choices will be undoubdedly be oversubscribed and we don't put our feeder school down as a 'choice' then we could be anywhere in Sheffield. So really there isn't much choice at all, unless you have Money or religion!

Not fair.............

We have received the dreaded school admissions pack.

It states we have 3 choices, but really when it comes down to it I don't feel we have any, just the local comp. As, if our other choices will be undoubdedly be oversubscribed and we don't put our feeder school down as a 'choice' then we could be anywhere in Sheffield. So really there isn't much choice at all, unless you have Money or religion!

Not fair.............


It is a ridiculous system that needs to be replaced but won't be unless we get another government. The trouble is that Cameron also supports that idea that there should be no admission by ability. What this means in practice is that school places are allocated according to the parents ability to afford a house near the school they choose. Children who live on the Manor have no chance. Under the grammar school system (with all its flaws) those children stood a chance is they were more able. I don't advocate a return to the grammar school system but it would certainly be better than what we have now.

While you are still stuck with this silly system I would recomend looking at the sound eductaional reasons why you child needs to go to a particular school. You then can use these as the basis of an appeal when you don't get into the school after they ignore these reasons, which I am certain they do.

[While you are still stuck with this silly system I would recomend looking at the sound eductaional reasons why you child needs to go to a particular school. You then can use these as the basis of an appeal when you don't get into the school after they ignore these reasons, which I am certain they do.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for this advice. I shall use this as the basis of an appeal, I have a great letter of recommendation from her headteacher hopefully this will help but I am becoming more despondent each day, the worst thing is they then make you wait 6 months before you can find out which school you've been allocated a place at....

[While you are still stuck with this silly system I would recomend looking at the sound eductaional reasons why you child needs to go to a particular school. You then can use these as the basis of an appeal when you don't get into the school after they ignore these reasons, which I am certain they do.

Thanks for this advice. I shall use this as the basis of an appeal, I have a great letter of recommendation from her headteacher hopefully this will help but I am becoming more despondent each day, the worst thing is they then make you wait 6 months before you can find out which school you've been allocated a place at....

I would recomend looking at particular areas that she is really interested in. If your local school is poor in these areas (perhaps in an Ofsted report) and the school you would like is very good in these areas then you need to explain this in a note that goes with the application. The admissions policy does actually say that they take these reasons into account, although a doubt they really do. If you then fail to get the school requested on sound educational reasons, and someone else does who didn't have the same reasons but lives nearer (although outside the catchment area) then you have good grounds for an appeal.

In our case, we didn't even put out local school as one of the three because they have virtually no music education, no bands and no instrument tuition. If she had gone to that school then she wouldn't have been able to keep up with her playing so it was clearly unnaccaptable. For other children, with other interests, it is a good school, but this is a reason why allocating schools purely on distance is wrong.

You also shouldn't ignore private education. Many private schools offer scholarships and bursaries so that children who are able can attend without it costing parents a fortune.

Hi Ken

You say you didn't put your catchment school as one of your choices. I am so afraid of what would happen if we didn't - thinking about a worst case scenario.

Did you have to go to appeal and were you sucessful?

I haven't ruled out private education but am not sure even with a bursary we could afford all that went with it.

It makes me so mad that with all the taxes we pay every child should have a right to a 'decent' standard of education and not just those that can afford to live in the more affulent areas.

My son has 2 years left at junior school but I have been advised to seek a place at Bents Green School as he has significant special needs. I realise I am going to have a battle on my hands as places are few and far between. I intend to start the ball rolling as soon as possible.

Bents Green has a great reputation I don't know the criteria for special schools but I wouldn't imagine that catchment areas are not as relevant. I just wished we'd moved to Dronfield 2 years ago then we wouldn't have this dilemma, I feel I've let her down with her education thru no fault of my own.

Include your catchment school last and put the two schools you would put ahead of it as first and second. If they are those with sixth forms you might not get your child in but at least you have tried. If you don't put your catchment school on the list you run the risk, and it's down to you to find out whether they get full up, that you might have to appeal to even get into that one.

If you don't get offered what you want then appeal through the proper procedures. Parents do get their children in on appeal

Hi Ken

You say you didn't put your catchment school as one of your choices. I am so afraid of what would happen if we didn't - thinking about a worst case scenario.

Did you have to go to appeal and were you sucessful?

I haven't ruled out private education but am not sure even with a bursary we could afford all that went with it.

It makes me so mad that with all the taxes we pay every child should have a right to a 'decent' standard of education and not just those that can afford to live in the more affulent areas.

If you don't put down your catchment area school and then are unnsuccesful with all of your choices then they allocate a place at the nearest community school with places. They also put you on the waiting list for your chosen schools and then offer you places at other schools with places.

My own view is that there is no point putting down a school that you consider unnacceptable regardless of the consequences, so I wasn't preapared to do that. We ended up being offered places at our third choice school and then, later, at the second choice school both of which are considered hard to get into and which are across the city from us. You really have to look at the statistics for each school and work out the chance that you have. If your preferred school doesn't even have enough places for its catchment area and you live 6 miles away then your chances are almost zero. If your preferred school has places for all all catchment and feeder school children and then has enough places for 20% of the children who normally apply then your chances are 20%. In theory your complete with the children in that same category according to educational and social needs of the child. If they actually allocate places based purely in distance and you don't get one then you have the basis for appeal if you have stronger, better, reasons than those being put forward by the parents that did get places.

If your daugher is particularly gifted then there are private schools which pay for all the fees. It is more normal to get some of the fees paid based on the childs ability and on parents income. It doesn't hurt to look into it anyway, because if you don't investigate these things then you never know what would have happened.

It seems daft to me that there are so many decent schools and so many crap schools. Why on earth don't we have something done about it?

How can it be that there are schools that everyone wants their kids to attend because of decent results and good behaviour etc. and there are schools where results aren't as good and there's not so good behaviour?

Surely it's time to start hammering the crap schools. If the schools aren't performing then why is this? Do we need to start penalising teachers? Improve facilities?

Surely we should aim to make all schools a place where you'd want to send your child instead of continuing with schools that you'd rather not even walk past and schools that produce decent results.

Surely everyone wants the best for their kids and wants to give them a good start in life, if all the schools were up to it this would be a lot easier and there wouldn't be these stressed up people when it comes to getting their child in to school.

How can it be that there are schools that everyone wants their kids to attend because of decent results and good behaviour etc. and there are schools where results aren't as good and there's not so good behaviour?

Surely it's time to start hammering the crap schools. If the schools aren't performing then why is this? Do we need to start penalising teachers? Improve facilities?
.

Although there are some very poor schools, for the most part it isn't simply a case of picking the ones with good exam results. Apart from anything else, what you really need to know is what overall improvement the children make, not how they end up. But really there are a number of different criteria that make one school different from another. In our case our local school is a perfectly good school in most respects but was unnacceptable to us because of their poor, virtually non-existent, music education. For other children it might be that they have a talent and an interest in drama and they want to go to a school which has drama faciliies and may even be a specialist drama school. The government has given funding so that many of our schools have specialities and yet, should your child be gifted or interested in that area, they will still be allocated a place according to your ability to move closer to the school. It may be that people will think that having an interest such as music or drama is or little consequence, but actually it can make a massive difference to their entire education. If a child is interested in a specalist area and there are lots of facilities for them then they will be more interested in the school and will mix with like minded children.

The other aspect of a school that makes a difference is its philosophy and the aspirations that the management team have for their children. I visited a number of schools, many of them twice, before filling in the forms. At one school I formed the opinion that the children were being prepared for work and there was a considerable emphasis on design and technology. At another school I formed the opinion that the school did design and technology in a way aimed at producing children who would go to university to study engineering and generally that they didn't aim their teaching at producing a workforce. My own opinion is that education shouldn't be about work at all and that I want my children at a school with a six form. These are sound reasons why I might choose one school whereas another parent might choose another and yet we are all effectively stuck with our nearest school despite the ficton of choice, unless we want to fight. Of course it is the same type of parent who is best able to fight the powers that be through appeals and get their point across who is also best able to move to a catchment area. This still leaves the poorest children with the least possible choice.

2007 intake? We've been informed at work that in Sheffield 2007 sees a slump in pupil numbers coming into Y7. It seems that its probably a very good year to be applying for schools other than your local catchment school.

I didn't get my first choice of school, but my son did :rolleyes: he's thrilled to bits with it and throwing himself into school life with enthusiasm. He isn't sporty but has even tried out for the football team!

is it just me but i want my baby to stay at primary school idont want him to turm into a moaning hormone raged fiend, i want my little boy to stay a littleboy. i d like my catchment school so ive put it as first choice.

Hiya, we have just moved, and i am awaiting an appeal to get my 2 girls in our local comp, its beyond a joke. Then if they don't get a place they can send them anyway. My eldest is in her final year aswell, and aint been to school since july, it is to far to travel to old school, so i am keeping them off, until council decide to give me an appeal date.... Its ludricous

I applied for All Saints on Granville Road, and also Notredame (catchment school was Firth Park, but dont remember whether we applied for it).

Im not a catholic, im a christian (im 15) but did go to a catholic primary school. I wanted to go to All Saints, so we applied, but were knocked back, the same with Notredame. We appealed to All Saints and my mum had to go and fight in my corner about why i should be accepted. A few weeks later a letter arrived saying i had been accepted.

I was so surprised i was good enough for that school. But whatever schools you choose to apply for, fight until you get the place! Its worth it

Twitcher, what school does your child want to go to? Have you even asked them? Or are you just assuming that you know best.....whatever school they go to, they'll do their best if they are happy. Imagine your guilt if you choose the wrong school for them, and they hate it and go off the rails?

Hiya, we have just moved, and i am awaiting an appeal to get my 2 girls in our local comp, its beyond a joke. Then if they don't get a place they can send them anyway. My eldest is in her final year aswell, and aint been to school since july, it is to far to travel to old school, so i am keeping them off, until council decide to give me an appeal date.... Its ludricous
I'm sorry if this sounds a little harsh, but that sounds like their education is suffering over stubborness.

How far is it to their old school?

Have you been offered a place at any other nearer schools besides the one you are holding out on?

If your daughter is in her final year isn't it worth that extra drive to get her to class, especially as she's not been to school since July?

to be fair, until the last fortnight, many kids have not been in school since July ;)

to be fair, until the last fortnight, many kids have not been in school since July ;)
I was thinking that with the school holidays etc. (nice low traffic, now we are back to hell and I didn't even know kids could drive)

Twitcher, what school does your child want to go to? Have you even asked them? Or are you just assuming that you know best.....whatever school they go to, they'll do their best if they are happy. Imagine your guilt if you choose the wrong school for them, and they hate it and go off the rails?

Hi, we intend to visit lots and take her opinion very seriously. She most definately doesn't want the catchment school. I honestly don't know what's best (wished I did) it's a chance we'll take but not before thoroughly investigating all the options with her. My main concern is for her to be happy first and foremost which is the best way for her to learn...

It seems daft to me that there are so many decent schools and so many crap schools. Why on earth don't we have something done about it?

I've worked in one of the top schools in Sheffield, well publicised for its exam results. I've worked in others as well, who don't come anywhere near it. Facilities are similar, staff abilities are equal, difference being the intake of pupils. I did not see any outstanding teaching at that school or any outstanding inititiatives that would suggest outstanding exam results. It seems that no matter what you do with a school, a lot rides on the intake of pupils. The authorities are trying to sort this out and give some schools a boost, hence Park Academy being run by ULT. Whether the ULT schools prove a success only time will tell.

I agree with the poster who says you need to look at what the school offers as a whole. Schools are judged too much on exam results. We hear little of schools who offer trips, have super after school clubs. Exam results will only get you so far in life, you need something else. Most parents want their kids to find a hobby or interest and pursue it, look at schools and think whether it is a place that will encourage activities such as sport, music, drama etc. A lot of schools have specialisms now, which may help people fight for places, i.e. gifted linguist into a language college. I'm not a big fan of specialist statuses, schools will bang on about it but look at the school as a whole.

It seems daft to me that there are so many decent schools and so many crap schools. Why on earth don't we have something done about it?

How can it be that there are schools that everyone wants their kids to attend because of decent results and good behaviour etc. and there are schools where results aren't as good and there's not so good behaviour?

Surely it's time to start hammering the crap schools. If the schools aren't performing then why is this? Do we need to start penalising teachers? Improve facilities?

Surely we should aim to make all schools a place where you'd want to send your child instead of continuing with schools that you'd rather not even walk past and schools that produce decent results.

Surely everyone wants the best for their kids and wants to give them a good start in life, if all the schools were up to it this would be a lot easier and there wouldn't be these stressed up people when it comes to getting their child in to school.

I agree with you lalaland. Two of the poorest performing schols in Sheffield, Waltheof and Myrtle Springs, are now no more. As of this month, they respectively became Sheffield Park Academy and Sheffield Springs Academy.
New school buildings, costing millions of pounds, are currently under construction. There is a new educational ethos underpinning these changes. I understand that both Academies are already oversubscribed.

just wanted to say that i went to appeal against my daughters allocated primary school after being turned down for our first 3 choices - the appeal was a complete waste of time...they took one look at my address and decided that despite my very good arguements (i took advice from others who had successfully appealed as well as education dept staff) there was no way they were going to allow our appeal. Another parent who lives near me also appealed and was turned down. A family who didnt even turn up for thier appeal were given a place, despite them living even further away than us - they just had a better postcode. The following year all 16 who appealed got into the school they selected as first choice - they all lived close by, but out of catchment area.

No way is that appeal system fair.

is it just me but i want my baby to stay at primary school idont want him to turm into a moaning hormone raged fiend, i want my little boy to stay a littleboy. i d like my catchment school so ive put it as first choice.
Aaah - thats really sweet, but sadly they do grow up and they do turn into moaning hormone raged fiends ! Don't try to slow the process down either - he will hate you for it !

You really need to ask the schools some schools who in the past may have been full may not be now. Wales hHgh in Rotherham is a typical example where in the past it has been full but because of declining numbers in the local area places are availabile.

i would keep her off too!! we just moved aswell but i was lucky and got places for both my kids, bloody council should get there act together.

I agree with you lalaland. Two of the poorest performing schols in Sheffield, Waltheof and Myrtle Springs, are now no more. As of this month, they respectively became Sheffield Park Academy and Sheffield Springs Academy.
New school buildings, costing millions of pounds, are currently under construction. There is a new educational ethos underpinning these changes. I understand that both Academies are already oversubscribed.

New buildings and a new name doesn't make the school suddenly perform better unless you've replaced the kids too :) Looking where both schools are they were always going to have 'interesting' results. Remember you cannot polish a turd :)

I think that what school your kid attends, for the most part, doesn't matter. It is easy to get good grades in exams if you bother to work for them, and so the main determinant of a kid's school success is their work ethic, which is deriven from their parents.

The fact that you care enough about their education to even consider sending them somewhere else implies that your kids know that doing well in school is important, and so they will try hard and do well, no matter where they end up.

New buildings and a new name doesn't make the school suddenly perform better unless you've replaced the kids too :) Looking where both schools are they were always going to have 'interesting' results. Remember you cannot polish a turd :)
I am not sure I truely agree or understand your statement here, surely you are not stating that the area the kids come from, despite being the less desirable areas of Sheffield, means they won't achieve anything?

Having said that, I would never send a child to a school where there have been incidents involving violence with razor blades and scarred faces. That's nothing to do with the area it's in or where people are from that go there, but that would put me off sending a child there.

Although it is said you have 3 choices, those who actually get school places are those who have named their catchment school as their first choice - most people do not even get a look in if they put a school as their second or third choice as most schools are full with first choice/catchment places, so even though they say 3 choices, I reckon if you don't get your first, you've had it, your child could end up anywhere and that's why most parents don't even think about putting anything other than their catchment school as their first choice. This is no choice at all!

EG All Saints last year had 247 first choice applications and 200 of these were given places. However they also received around 200 2nd and 3rd choices applications that didn't get a look in.

Surely everyone wants the best for their kids and wants to give them a good start in life, if all the schools were up to it this would be a lot easier and there wouldn't be these stressed up people when it comes to getting their child in to school.

Unfortunately everyone doesnt want the best for their kids. Some parents dont really care whether their kids get a good education. Their kids will go to the school thats the easiest option for them, the parents. These kids with a lack of parental care & guidance are the ones most likely to drag a school down. Every school cant be good until every child is eager to learn and this will never be the case.
It sno coincidence that the best schools are in the best areas. Those with money recognise the value of a good education and ensure their kids recognise this too so they work harder (and turn up) at school.

Whils it may be unfair on the kids from poor areas,thats just life in this type of society.

Unfortunately everyone doesnt want the best for their kids. Some parents dont really care whether their kids get a good education. Their kids will go to the school thats the easiest option for them, the parents. These kids with a lack of parental care & guidance are the ones most likely to drag a school down. Every school cant be good until every child is eager to learn and this will never be the case.
It sno coincidence that the best schools are in the best areas. Those with money recognise the value of a good education and ensure their kids recognise this too so they work harder (and turn up) at school.

Whilst it may be unfair on the kids from poor areas,thats just life in this type of society.

This is surely one of the biggest arguments for selection by ability in education. Selection by ability is surely preferable to selection by parental income.

This is surely one of the biggest arguments for selection by ability in education. Selection by ability is surely preferable to selection by parental income.

Selection by ability wouldnt solve the problem of poor schools though. It would ensure those with ability get a suitable education but then you end up with a load of low achievement schools and elite schools- as we have now.
Do schools select on parental income or is it on the location of the childs home? - the two may be interlinked but there's a big difference.
There's no fair solution.
In the current 'green' climate it would follow that every child should go to the closest school- common sense, and reduce congestion and pollution.

I sympathise with all parents who have to go through the process of senior school applications. When we applied for our eldest son I can honestly say it was the worst time of being a parent EVER. We live in the catchment area for a poor school and I was desperate for my son not to go there. I had my reasons other that it not being a good school. I applied for a school well out of catchment (at the time you only had one choice - the system changed the year after) I simply put all of my views/feelings on the form as to why I felt the school I had applied for was more suitable for my son. We were very lucky to be offered a place without going to appeal. As we had one child in, we then jumped categories for our other son which made it easier to get him in, but again I consider us to be very lucky as not all the feeder school children got in as it was so over subscribed. All I can say is, complete the whole form and add another sheet if necessary. Put all your reasons down eve if you feel they may not be relevant. If you don't put your catchment school down would you be upset to be offered a different school i.e could any of the other schools be any worse. Get your application form in sooner rather than later and then sit and wait. Forget about it and get xmas out of the way before you even start to worry about the outcome.
Good Luck to everyone who has to go through this.

Although it is said you have 3 choices, those who actually get school places are those who have named their catchment school as their first choice - most people do not even get a look in if they put a school as their second or third choice .

This is an entirely misleading statement so please don't take any notice of it if you are applying, carefully read the booklets instead. There is no difference whatsoever as to whether you put a school down first, second or third. Each application is dealt with independantly depending on whether you are within the catchment area, come from a feeder school, or on other criteria such as distance. They then decide if they will offer you a place. It is then possible that you will get three "offers", in which case the authority will automatically give you your first choice. In the event that you get two "offers" then you will be given the highest one etc. You are still put on the waiting list for any places at a higher placed school that you didn't get a place at and, of course, you can appeal. An "offer" in this case means that there is a place for you at that school but the authority will only send you to the highest placed one, with no ability for the parent to choose at that point or to appeal.

The reason that the poster has given this erroneous information is probably that:-

a. The catholic schools don't operate by the same system as the other schools.

b. A few years ago there used to be a system where the schools could take into account the place you put them at.

c. Other authorities have other systems (remember that you can apply to any authority you like, such as Rotheram, Derbyshire, North Nottinghamshire).

It is important that people don't believe that position is important otherwise they will simply put their catchment area school as first choice and then they can never have a place at the two other choices. It is critical that the first choice is put first because you will not be offered a lower placed school if a higher placed one offers you a place and you cannot even appeal against this.

This is an entirely misleading statement so please don't take any notice of it if you are applying, carefully read the booklets instead. There is no difference whatsoever as to whether you put a school down first, second or third. Each application is dealt with independantly depending on whether you are within the catchment area, come from a feeder school, or on other criteria such as distance. They then decide if they will offer you a place. It is then possible that you will get three "offers", in which case the authority will automatically give you your first choice. In the event that you get two "offers" then you will be given the highest one etc. You are still put on the waiting list for any places at a higher placed school that you didn't get a place at and, of course, you can appeal. An "offer" in this case means that there is a place for you at that school but the authority will only send you to the highest placed one, with no ability for the parent to choose at that point or to appeal.

The reason that the poster has given this erroneous information is probably that:-

a. The catholic schools don't operate by the same system as the other schools.

b. A few years ago there used to be a system where the schools could take into account the place you put them at.

c. Other authorities have other systems (remember that you can apply to any authority you like, such as Rotheram, Derbyshire, North Nottinghamshire).

It is important that people don't believe that position is important otherwise they will simply put their catchment area school as first choice and then they can never have a place at the two other choices. It is critical that the first choice is put first because you will not be offered a lower placed school if a higher placed one offers you a place and you cannot even appeal against this.
Looking through the booklet (I only quoted All Saints as I had the numbers to hand) it is quoted time and time again that catchment area children were given a place and "other category" applicants who could not be offered a higher ranked preference were refused a place. That says to me (and please correct me if I am wrong) that the other category students were not catchment students and had not put that particular school as 1st choice but had put it as 2nd and 3rd choice. This confirms my point that if you do not get your first choice you have very little chance of getting your 2nd or 3rd choice because these schools will already have been filled up with students who put that school as their 1st choice.

It is important that people don't believe that position is important otherwise they will simply put their catchment area school as first choice and then they can never have a place at the two other choices. It is critical that the first choice is put first because you will not be offered a lower placed school if a higher placed one offers you a place and you cannot even appeal against this.
I agree with KenH if you have a preferred choice ALWAYS put that one first, this way even if you don't get in to any of your choice of schools you will still be able to appeal, obviously you must be happy with your 2nd & 3rd choices as well. If you don't get your choice you could possibly be put on a "waiting list" which is kept until the October of the year of admission so you could still get a place. I know of a few people who this has happened to. However I do know of an instance where a person put the catchment school as third choice and got it, they then tried to appeal for their 1st & 2nd choice schools but didn't stand a chance because they had received a place at the school of their 3rd choice. So be very careful about putting your catchment school, you must be prepared to take a place there if you have chosen it.

Looking through the booklet (I only quoted All Saints as I had the numbers to hand) it is quoted time and time again that catchment area children were given a place and "other category" applicants who could not be offered a higher ranked preference were refused a place. That says to me (and please correct me if I am wrong) that the other category students were not catchment students and had not put that particular school as 1st choice but had put it as 2nd and 3rd choice. This confirms my point that if you do not get your first choice you have very little chance of getting your 2nd or 3rd choice because these schools will already have been filled up with students who put that school as their 1st choice.

When it is referring to other category it means either :- no sibling in that school, feeder school or other. So all places would have been offered to catchment pupils only and no places to pupils falling in the other catergories. Which basicaly means you would be wasting a choice if you put a school down as an option that only has enough places or catchment area children and you don;t fall into that category. You do have a choice where to send your child but if you don't "fall into" the category orders you may not get a place.

My concern is that although the catchment school for my son is not too bad, I am considering a school outside my catchment area and fear if he does not get into the school outside of catchment area he may not get a place at his local school either and end up at a really bad school. This is a problem a lot of parents have and they end up putting their catchment school as first choice as they would rather their kids go to a "not bad school" that end up at a really bad one!

When it is referring to other category it means either :- no sibling in that school, feeder school or other. So all places would have been offered to catchment pupils only and no places to pupils falling in the other catergories. Which basicaly means you would be wasting a choice if you put a school down as an option that only has enough places or catchment area children and you don;t fall into that category. You do have a choice where to send your child but if you don't "fall into" the category orders you may not get a place.
Exactly - "if you don't fall into that category" you may not get a place - so there really is no choice!

Looking through the booklet (I only quoted All Saints as I had the numbers to hand) it is quoted time and time again that catchment area children were given a place and "other category" applicants who could not be offered a higher ranked preference were refused a place. That says to me (and please correct me if I am wrong) that the other category students were not catchment students and had not put that particular school as 1st choice but had put it as 2nd and 3rd choice. This confirms my point that if you do not get your first choice you have very little chance of getting your 2nd or 3rd choice because these schools will already have been filled up with students who put that school as their 1st choice.

This isn't what happens. You can treat each of the three choices completely independantly of one another. It is essential that the three choices are put in the order that you want to attend. There is no advantage or disadvantage to having a school as first on the list. If you take the view that you will only get your catchement school and don't really want to go there, then put it third. This will mean that if you do manage to get another school then they will be higher on the list and you will be allocated to then, but if you don't then you will still get the catchment school.

The places at each school are allocated according to which cataegory each applicant falls within. Those children within the catchment area get the places first but no account is taken as to whether the applicant put them first, second or third. There are then other categories such as whether the child is from the feeder school or has a sibling there. They then fill up any further vacancies form these categories in turn. The last category is effectively "others" or "everyone else". If when filling up the vacancies within each category (which may be "everyone else") they don't have enough places for everyone then they use other selection criteria but the order they are on the form is not one of these. They claim that they then take note of any eductational or social needs and then they use a pure distance calculation. This is usually the basis for an appeal as you can either claim that they didn't properly consider your requirements or the distance calculation was wrong.

When selecting three schools you can look at which categories they gave places to last year, how many places they have this year and what the odds are that you will get a place in your category. If they didn't allocate any places last year to people in your category then your chances this year are almost nil provided not much has changed. If they allocated 50% of the places then you have roughly a 50% chance. If you put your preferred schools down as second and third and put your catchment school down first then you are probably reducing the chance of getting the other two schools down to zero as you only get offered the highest choice where there is a place.

I would argue that you should never put a school down on the list that you don't want to go to, and I decided not to do this for my daughter. We were then offered places at two of the 3 we did choose, both of which you would think we stod a poor chance of getting.

I would also caution about taking any notice of the phrase "oversubscribed" as it is generally irrelevant to you. Lots of schools love to say they are grossly oversubscribed or even "the most over subscribed school in Sheffield". We were offered a place at the one that made that latter claim despite living miles from the catchment area, and without going on the waiting list or appealing. At our local school they make no big fuss about being oversubscribed and yet only have places for 80% of the catchment area children. This means you won't get a place unless you are within the catchment area and then not for certain. Other schools claim to be vastly over subscribed and yet offer places to all catchment area children, all feeder school, all those children with siblings at the school and then 20-30 others. They calim they are oversubscribed because masses of people put them down as second or third but actually take a place at a higher preference school.

You put a very positive spin on the application process and have lifted my heart........................ as it gives my son a much higher chance of getting into at least one of his choices.

You put a very positive spin on the application process and have lifted my heart........................ as it gives my son a much higher chance of getting into at least one of his choices.

I didn't mean to put any spin on it, as I think it is an appalling process that needs to be scrapped. However, I have spend many hours going over the rules, contacting people to clarify things, and working out probabilities. When visitng schools I found that some senior teachers who were advising parents didn't really understand the system either. To make matters worse, the rules are at least slightly in different authorities.

I didn't mean to put any spin on it, as I think it is an appalling process that needs to be scrapped. However, I have spend many hours going over the rules, contacting people to clarify things, and working out probabilities. When visitng schools I found that some senior teachers who were advising parents didn't really understand the system either. To make matters worse, the rules are at least slightly in different authorities.
It's good that someone has put a positive spin on it as most the news is doom and gloom and makes you feel like you have little choice as a parent! So I appreciate the info you have supplied.

It's good that someone has put a positive spin on it as most the news is doom and gloom and makes you feel like you have little choice as a parent! So I appreciate the info you have supplied.

You just have to put a great deal of time and effort into it. You need to visit schools more than once unless the first visit is enough to rule them out. Don't be fobbed off with open evenings, insist on visiting during school time and talking to the children. If a school doesn't want to accomodate you then perhaps that tells you something about the schools, perhaps as much as a visit will! Many parents are happy with their catchment schools or have children already at a school so they don't worry too much. However, it is suprising to me that many parents are doing this for the first time and put no effort in at all.

You just have to put a great deal of time and effort into it. You need to visit schools more than once unless the first visit is enough to rule them out. Don't be fobbed off with open evenings, insist on visiting during school time and talking to the children. If a school doesn't want to accomodate you then perhaps that tells you something about the schools, perhaps as much as a visit will! Many parents are happy with their catchment schools or have children already at a school so they don't worry too much. However, it is suprising to me that many parents are doing this for the first time and put no effort in at all.

Thanks Ken for providing us with this info, is it worth providing supporting letters from clubs attended outside of school as back up with the application?

No i can not take my daughter to her old school, we are in a completely different area, some people just do not understand the situation, until they are in the same problem. Good luck to the rest of you, with your childrens schools, it aint easy. I will await an appeal date, and they dont rush either.

No i can not take my daughter to her old school, we are in a completely different area, some people just do not understand the situation, until they are in the same problem.That's fair enough then, I was just remembering back 20 years or so ago when my Dad remarried and his partner had 2 kids of her own from the other side of town. As her son couldn't get in the school she wanted she drove every morning and every night to keep him in school and continue his education. It was a nightmare at times and often meant she didn't get home until after 5 despite picking him up at 3.30, but she still did it until she resolved the situation.

While I don't know your circumstances I was just asking if it was possible as I've seen it done before, I didn't intend to criticise, but if it's not possible then fair enough.

Thanks Ken for providing us with this info, is it worth providing supporting letters from clubs attended outside of school as back up with the application?

My own view is that it is worth writing about these on the application (and on a seperate sheet) as well as why they are relevant to applying for a particular school. For example, if a child has gone for drama lessons since she was 5 and wants to go to a school which has superb drama facilities whereas your catchment school has poor facilites then this must be relevant. I doubt that providing the actual letters does much good but I would do anything you feel like, although you need three of everything because each choice is condsidered seperately. The main thing to do is to get lots of information from visits, other parents and ofted reports. If you have a child that is a gifted musician and the ofted report says that your local school is poor at music then this must be evidence that you need to choose another school.

The explanatory booklet you get about this procedure says:-


Complete the 'reasons for preference' box for each school you apply for making reference to any reasons why that school is your preferred school. You may wish to include:-

Family circumstances
Medical reasons
Religious reasons
Transport
Family, friends and other links to the school
social reasons
you views on education and behaviour
any other factors


Since they are asking you to do this then they must take this into account. This is evidenced by them stating further on that "it is your responsibility to provide additional evidence that you wish to be considered with your application". My reading of this is that you should send them anything you think is relevent because they can't take it into account if you don't send it.


It is then worth looking at section 5 on page 8 where they talk about tie breakers. If they don't have enough places within a category for all that apply then they use tie break criteria. They have already told you to include all kinds of reasons but it isn't until you get to a tie break that you find out why. They have two mthods of allocation places when it comes to a tie break situation:-

1. Where exceptional medical social or special educational needs are demonstrated.

2. On distance.


The bit which makes no sense is that they ask for reasons supporting the application such as transport or religious reasons, but then later refer to only exceptional reasons such as special eductaional needs. My own view is that they are obliged to take all your reasons into acocunt and then decide if they are exceptional enough to be more important than a pure distance. If they don't think they are then you can claim they are at appeal and the appeals panel may well agree with you.

Given that the latest date is 20th October, do those applications getting in early get priority.

I was wondering when they have the open days they can't expect people to have made their minds up already can they, unless you've already made your mind up?

Given that the latest date is 20th October, do those applications getting in early get priority.

I was wondering when they have the open days they can't expect people to have made their minds up already can they, unless you've already made your mind up?
The open days are all in the next couple of weeks - look in the admissions pack you got - the dates are all there. I guess most people by now have an idea of the top two or three schools they like............ we have 2 we like and so will be going to the open days over the next week to see which one we are going to put as our 1st choice and which will be our 2nd choice.

The open days are all in the next couple of weeks - look in the admissions pack you got - the dates are all there. I guess most people by now have an idea of the top two or three schools they like............ we have 2 we like and so will be going to the open days over the next week to see which one we are going to put as our 1st choice and which will be our 2nd choice.

I would recomend going to see schools outside of the open days, particularly when the children are in school. At the open days they rush you round in a couple of hours, and you may not even see everything, and they show you the nice bits. The school is normally full of children and so you can't really see what happens unless they are in school. Obviously go to the open days as well. I would also recomend that you see other schools not just the ones you think you will put down, you might be surprised by what you see and you also need something to compare against.

There is no advantage to putting in an application early, but they mustn't be late, when there might be a problem.

Given that the latest date is 20th October, do those applications getting in early get priority.


I was wondering when they have the open days they can't expect people to have made their minds up already can they, unless you've already made your mind up?
you should have received a list of days and times for open days with your application pack. If not just call the schools you want to visit and ask them, they are going ahead already though.


You don't get treated as a priority if you get your application in on time, the ones that don't get their applications in on time will not be dealt with until all correctly received applications have been processed. It is imperative that you get your application in on time and I always think sooner rather than later. I did however wait until the last minute for my 1st son as I did want to look at a few schools and I did put this on the application. I wrote that I had wanted to visit several schools before making up my mind which to apply for and I think that gives you credability as you simply don't write off all schools until you have visited them. This enables you to compare them before making a choice.

I know this is a really silly question but what do the children wear to these open evenings - should they wear their current school uniform or is a relaxed atmosphere so casual clothes are more appropriate (dumb question I know, but I had to ask)!

I know this is a really silly question but what do the children wear to these open evenings - should they wear their current school uniform or is a relaxed atmosphere so casual clothes are more appropriate (dumb question I know, but I had to ask)!

They can wear anything. They are informal events.

Does anyone have any tips about what to look for paticularly when making school visits and what the best questions are to ask, or is it partly a gut feeling that you get?

Does anyone have any tips about what to look for paticularly when making school visits and what the best questions are to ask, or is it partly a gut feeling that you get?
Unfortunately I don't think any tips will help you on this one. AS you know all children are different and you have to take them into consideration when deciding. If my 2nd son was the oldest I wouldn't have had any worries sending him to the catchment school due to his personality. The oldest one however was completely different and I was worried sick about him going to the catchment school. Just go to all the open evenings (you want to) with an open mind, see what they have to offer. Discuss each one with your child and when you have seen them all then make the decision. You cols try making a plus and minus list for each one when you have been to see them which may help you remember what you liked and disliked about each school when you are ready to decide.

Does anyone have any tips about what to look for paticularly when making school visits and what the best questions are to ask, or is it partly a gut feeling that you get?

My view is that you should have already been to all the schools that are interesting before the open days. I would treat the open days as a chance for the child to see the schools that you think are interesting.

The open evenings are far too short to be enough for such an important decision. The usual format is that there is some kind of introduction from the head and one or two others. They will tell you how great they are and how wonderful all the children are, and will virtually all talk about being over-subscribed (which you should ignore). You then get to walk round the classrooms where some work will be left out and you can talk to the subject teachers. It is quite likely that you will get thrown out before you see everything so don't be sidetracked into watching some drama performance or listening to a band. Also make sure you move through swiftly and come back to places you want to examine again.

I find that you can gain some impression of the place from what is on the walls. At one large school in Derbyshire (in a small town begining with D), I didn't like the kinds of notices that saw everywhere which said things such as "children should not loiter in this area". The classrooms seemed to have virtually nothing on the walls and what there was seemed to be produced by the teacher or to be an official notice. At other schools they have fabulous displays of the children's work and are obviously very proud of it.

I would be very careful not to take too much notice of how many computers a school has. A common theme I came across was that they are desperate to tell you they have thousands of PC's and lots of other technology. Have a look at the library and see if they have any books or see if all the cash went on computers. If one school has 100 computers and another 1000 it really won't make any difference to the child and certainly isn't as important as how they are taught.

I came across a few things that I would regard as warning signals. I asked to visit schools outside of their open evenings. The majority of schools were helpful and didn't bat an eyelid. One of them made it sound like they were doing me a big favour and one refused on the basis that an open evening is good enough for everyone else. I would point out that when visiting during the day we came across numbers of other parents doing exactly the same thing. The school that refused did make me nervous and I didn't put them on the form.

At most schools, and most departments, we saw projects that children had made and looked through the written work that went with it. At one school we asked to do this and were told we couldn't see it because of confidentiality/data protection etc. Clearly if many schools allow something and one doesn't then you need to be suspicious.

Hi all -

I'm really sympathetic to your posts and I'm actually carrying out research for Teachers' TV that looks into the selection in the schools' admissions process. An area of great concern to many parents is the fact that they cannot afford a property in a good catchement area.
I'm really interested in speaking to anyone who can't afford to move but want was is best for their child so they can actually highlight the flaws in the system.

You can contact me on:
0204284716

Thanks

Avigail

The problem is Avigail that if everyone got their 'choice' some schools would have no pupils at all.

That's also a fair point - and we are looking to create a debate about 'choice', 'selection' and the compexity of the system which can also be daunting and perhaps unfair. Please feel free to contact me if you'd like to find out more.

Avigail

I have had a really good read of these posts, a couple of things came to mind.

One of which I have already mentioned, what is the main factor that leads you as a family to prefer one school over another if you have no direct knowledge of the facility.

Is it the ofsted?
GCE results?
League table level?
after school activities/opportunities?
peer friendships?

Interestingly verbal testimony about particular schools is very one sided. My youngest child is at what I believe to be a fabulous primary, but one parent couldnt wait for her child to leave there, why? because the parent didn't get her own way on the numerous occasions she demanded the school do as she says.

(she threatened to remove her overweight child from school because crisps were banned at breaktimes :rolleyes: )

But if you asked the parent she would swear blind it was a terrible school and no good.

The problem is Avigail that if everyone got their 'choice' some schools would have no pupils at all.

You may well be right and there may be the odd school where there would be virtually no applications. If this was a product, we would have several companies selling things that people liked and then one where nobody wants to buy its goods. The company that had no sales would go bust. Because it is a school the council can effectively force people to "buy" from it and these are usually the poorest people. Although a good chunk of the problem is with the clientelle, at least some of that is the expectations they get from attendinga school they had no choice over and which nobody wants to attend.

I disgree Ken. Parents are not forced to send their child anywhere. They have a legal obligation to educate their child and lots homeschool. I personally think parents have been driven to see the bad in every school and only those in the top 10% are deemed good enough.

In any table of statistics someone has to be in the middle or at the bottom. One school in our catchment is very successful so far as improvements are concerned, this should be a considered factor in addition to the happiness of the child. Also if all the bright pupils are sent to selective 'cream' schools the rest don't statistically stand a chance.

I just wonder what are the drivers to selecting a school or is it the bandwagon of most of the schools are rubbish and I want the best. If that were the case Eton would be over subscribed!

I disgree Ken. Parents are not forced to send their child anywhere. They have a legal obligation to educate their child and lots homeschool. I personally think parents have been driven to see the bad in every school and only those in the top 10% are deemed good enough.

In any table of statistics someone has to be in the middle or at the bottom. One school in our catchment is very successful so far as improvements are concerned, this should be a considered factor in addition to the happiness of the child. Also if all the bright pupils are sent to selective 'cream' schools the rest don't statistically stand a chance.

I just wonder what are the drivers to selecting a school or is it the bandwagon of most of the schools are rubbish and I want the best. If that were the case Eton would be over subscribed!

My experience is that this isn't what seems to happen. I think that what probably happens is that there is a vocal minority, people like me, who express strong opinions and it seems like everyone is making a fuss about schools. In my case I am not at all disatisfied because we worked the system, partly because I am educated and resouceful and partly because I have a big mouth. I think the majority of people are quite happy with their local school. My thoughts on the matter are that able children in the poorest areas aren't being given the right chances because we currently do selection based on parents income. I would also say that I don't follow the trend in referring to schools as good based on their exam results as this depends far too much on what material they start with.

Hi all -


You can contact me on:
0204284716

Thanks

Avigail

I have tried calling and it says it is an incorrect number when I call from both my mobile and landline.

Apologies,

I have just been told that my number was incorrect.
Please see below my direct line:
020 7428 4716

my daughter has just started in year 8 at Abbeydale Grange School. This is our local school but suffers from a bad reputation (or at least did, hopefully on the up!). We couldn't be happier with the school, it is offering her a fantastic cultural, spiritual and academic education yet many parents of her fellow pupils at the feeder school were hell bent on getting their little angels into high storrs or King Es. It is important that our kids are happy at school but not getting the perfect educational formula at secondary school isn't going to make or break their prospect of a happy life. If you are a caring and supportive parent then they are already on the winning team.

My advice would be to stop obsessing, make the best of whatever school place they are offered and get on with it.

I would like to say, i attened the appeal of my 2 daughters today, and won the appeal, i was told afterwards that i had won, so i am really pleased with the outcome.

Good luck to the rest of you,

I have returned the form for my son with only one choice filled in, and it wasn`t the school stated on the letter that accompanies the form. My son wishes to goto City school and attends a feeder school for it not that this makes a difference. They put Sheffield Springs acadamy on the letter that came with the form! Why? because it ls the nearest school to where we live! my daughter attends City not that this will make much difference! She manages to get to school on time everyday and has come on great with her studies since attending. My son is presently at school 5 minuits from city and always arrives early even when catching the bus. The reason I need them there is so I can carry on working while they goto their nans after school they aren`t allowed to be on there own yet. I will fight it out and appeal and appeal again until I get some satisfaction if school place not offered at chosen one. I agree strongly with the forum member that said about affording houses in certain catchment areas I couldn`t get a house in area I wanted. I have nothing against Springs academy just that it will cause inconvenince alround my son knows no one who attends the school no one that will be going to school there all his mates live round the Woodhouse area.

I have returned the form for my son with only one choice filled in, and it wasn`t the school stated on the letter that accompanies the form. My son wishes to goto City school and attends a feeder school for it not that this makes a difference. They put Sheffield Springs acadamy on the letter that came with the form! Why? because it ls the nearest school to where we live! my daughter attends City not that this will make much difference! She manages to get to school on time everyday and has come on great with her studies since attending. My son is presently at school 5 minuits from city and always arrives early even when catching the bus. The reason I need them there is so I can carry on working while they goto their nans after school they aren`t allowed to be on there own yet. I will fight it out and appeal and appeal again until I get some satisfaction if school place not offered at chosen one. I agree strongly with the forum member that said about affording houses in certain catchment areas I couldn`t get a house in area I wanted. I have nothing against Springs academy just that it will cause inconvenince alround my son knows no one who attends the school no one that will be going to school there all his mates live round the Woodhouse area.

All of the things you mention do make a difference and you need to be sure that you mention them all on the form. You get a higher priority if your child goes to a feeder school. You should also have written about the social reasons why your child needs to go to that school and about his friends. IF you didn't do this and have sent it then, provided the date hasn't passed then you should see about doing it again, which I am sure you are entitled to do.

All of the things you mention do make a difference and you need to be sure that you mention them all on the form. You get a higher priority if your child goes to a feeder school. You should also have written about the social reasons why your child needs to go to that school and about his friends. IF you didn't do this and have sent it then, provided the date hasn't passed then you should see about doing it again, which I am sure you are entitled to do.

The fact it is a feeder school should make a difference. I don't think the friends thing would be an issue though, as most children make new friends when they move up to secondary.

If our kids were forced to go to Myrtle Springs I would give serious consideration to giving up Uni and teaching them at home! :gag:

If our kids were forced to go to Myrtle Springs ........


"Sheffield Springs Academy", if you please!!! :)

"Sheffield Springs Academy", if you please!!! :)

It will probably improve in a year or two now it's become an academy though.

.The fact it is a feeder school should make a difference. I don't think the friends thing would be an issue though, as most children make new friends when they move up to secondary.

If our kids were forced to go to Myrtle Springs I would give serious consideration to giving up Uni and teaching them at home! :gag:

Thanks Ken I have mentioed the social reasons and arrangements for child care I`m not to bothered about the work I do part time but as a single parent it`s my way of getting out and meeting people because it involves alot of contact with the general public if I had to give this up I would surely penalised for totaly scrounging of the state where at present I`m only entitled to a little help!...... I`ve read a lot of your comments to this thread and just wondered if you had anything to with the school system? The worse thing is if I do manage to get the school choice I`ll have to go through it all again when my youngest has to move to secondary.....In response to the freinds thing my lad never sticks to the same people day in day out but he keeps his freinds close and his enemies even closer he`s a real diplomat that would rather bring people together than see them fight it out saying this he wont let them walk all over him .......... On another note that I think I saw earlier,I thought I would have to move my kids out of the junior school (which is fantastic and brought them all upto scratch)they were attending when we had to move but was told by the school so long as there is a place available ( obviouslywas/is) and they can get there and arrive on time then there is no reason they can`t be educated within that school (which is the second junior infant school they attended) so does this rule apply in secondary schools does anyone know?

I think i quoted the wrong thing sorry for confusion

I have returned the form for my son with only one choice filled in, and it wasn`t the school stated on the letter that accompanies the form. My son wishes to goto City school and attends a feeder school for it not that this makes a difference. They put Sheffield Springs acadamy on the letter that came with the form! Why? because it ls the nearest school to where we live! my daughter attends City not that this will make much difference! She manages to get to school on time everyday and has come on great with her studies since attending. My son is presently at school 5 minuits from city and always arrives early even when catching the bus. The reason I need them there is so I can carry on working while they goto their nans after school they aren`t allowed to be on there own yet. I will fight it out and appeal and appeal again until I get some satisfaction if school place not offered at chosen one. I agree strongly with the forum member that said about affording houses in certain catchment areas I couldn`t get a house in area I wanted. I have nothing against Springs academy just that it will cause inconvenince alround my son knows no one who attends the school no one that will be going to school there all his mates live round the Woodhouse area.

As you're son attends the feeder school and your daughter attends City School and for the personal reasons stated, I don't think you should have a problem getting a place either right off or through appeal. IF you look at the info that came with the application this year it says in the 2006/7 application process ALL students who applied for a place at City received a place. No-one at all was turned down. This is a hopeful sign. All the best!