What does it mean to you?

I wear a suit to work, I don't swear often, I consider myself intelligent and articulate, well informed and politically active.
(I'll add for the moment, slightly inebriated).
I happened to go into burger king earlier because I was early for my swim and needed some food.

I felt like I belonged to a differnet class of people from the clientelle and staff. I don't normally feel like this, and before I get jumped on, some of my friends have jobs rather than careers, and no more education than GCSE level. But even they are intelligent, just not educated. They are still articulate, although maybe not to the same level as myself. The are certainly aware of current events, and possibly have some advantages on me in terms of social interaction (I don't like football, that's always awkward).

Things that make me notice a person as different can be many and varied. Dress, shell suits, track suits (unless in a gym), personal hygiene (actually that's a big one). A vacant expression and inability to respond sensibly to any question, random swearing (another big one), and also things that are really just an indication of income (a prejudice, damn my leathery hide), for example getting a cab from the supermarket...

I've forgotten where i'm going with this. Shoot me down as you will, or just comment.

why u think your diff (better class) 2 anybody else .

I thought i'd pretty much spelt it out there. Which bit didn't you understand?

I never actually mentioned better though, just different.

Gosh, i do lots of random swearing, and i think i've been in Burger King a couple of times.... i must be lower class... although i'd certainly feel i'd gone down a class if i had to move to Walkley. ;)

lol.
well, I said you could shoot me down.

Walkley was not my choice to live in. And in a few years we'll be moving to somewhere out of town. I'm thinking barlborough at the moment, or maybe Aston.

Well, i was just joking. Its ok to feel out of place sometimes, but i don't think that is to do with class. It is more to do with your attitudes and expections. In my experience, the only class that seem to have any trouble getting on with people are the middle class... maybe its because they have a fear of becoming lower class, and strive to be upper class, so are never quite content.

Just try and take each person as you find them and don't worry about class.

surely class is about attitudes and expectations though amonst other things.

I certainly didn't fear becoming like those people, or other people like that that i've come across.
I just find that I can't really relate, and that they assume certain differences as well because of my accent/clothing/use of language/etc.

Did I say in my original post, a strong regional accent? I should have done. No offence, and my grandparents and a few friends have strong accents. But I don't, my parents don't (although stronger than mine) and most of my friends don't.

I don't think I aspire to be high class. I aspire to be rich, but don't we all. And i'll probably end up, pretty well off. If I won the lottery tomorrow i might by a country mansion (is it a big jackpot?) and I already host cocktail parties and dinner for friends. What is high class, what is middle class and what is working class? I think i'm saying that i'm already good enough, or the best I can be, having blue blood doesn't make you better, having more education doesn't make you better. But then i'm contradicting myself, almost. Education changes people, broadens their horizons. Although some can rise above it's lack, not everyone can.... So.... what....

Agree with you Cyclone. It's a shame though that you almost feel you have to apologise for being yourself. Howcome there's so much pride in being "working class" but a lot of the middle classes feel almost ashamed of themselves? When I go into the city centre I see a lot of different people from different backgrounds and I admit I do feel uncomfortable near people who constantly swear, spit, litter, etc.

Cocktail parties don't have anything to do with class, that's to do with being stuck in the 80's. Education has nothing to do with class, but it does improve a person.

Also, the fact that you two feel uncomfortable is part of my point... the middle class seem to be the most unhappy and unable to mix among the classes, and i'm not quite sure why.

Maybe it's because the working classes try to make the middle classes feel guilty for their aspirations and achievements?

Maybe, but i don't think the working class care that much. The working class also seem to mix with the upper class better than the middle class, in my humble experience... so i'm not sure that theory works. A large portion of the middle class just seem to look down on the working class as if they are scum... maybe that's it, and the upper class seem to see the middle class as rather snobbish wannabes.... Again, i think people should just be judged on a personal basis, and not because of their class or any other superficial reasoning.

Maybe there's resentment both ways then. A few generations ago, most of the now m/c were w/c families. If they could "better" themselves, maybe they feel others should too? Conversely, the w/c may look at the m/c in the same way that you seem to - "he's middle class therefore he thinks he's better than everyone".

I think everyone should be judged on a personal basis too, but I don't think that the middle classes should have to be apologetic for being middle class.

I know what you mean, i feel very apologetic for being middle class, but i think that's because so many middle class people go around saying that working class people all spit and swear and drop litter, and i don't want to be associated with that.

I feel I have skirted around the classes a little in my life and I think for me the biggest diferentiator is "culture". Fashion, music, food (btw - I might have assumed you were of a "different" class to me by the very fact you were eating at burger king), choice of car etc.
It has to be remebered that you can have still have class - as in style - on a low budget.
I don't believe money has anything to do with it. I am "dropping out" soon from a very well paid job to a fairly poorly paid one because I believe I will gain greater personal satisfaction from it. I don't think my "class" will change as a result.

oh yes. And I swear like a trooper (possibly because I was one - an infantry soldier that is), but some of the worst language I hear these days is in the meeting rooms of the so-called middle-class senior management.

Originally posted by Snook
I know what you mean, i feel very apologetic for being middle class, but i think that's because so many middle class people go around saying that working class people all spit and swear and drop litter, and i don't want to be associated with that.

But I never said *all* did I?

We all like to belong. So here are some bits and bobs to consider if you question class.
Behavioural /cultural /sociological differences don't determine class. Money certainly doesn't.
Nobody can classify themselves - or I could call myself upper class and that would be that.
It’s our nature to classify things - its part of our knowledge system. So we classify each other. Therefore someone’s class is determined by what other people think about them.
Behavioural and cultural differences may affect perception - in a general way. But everyone has a different perception of the same thing:

One person's snob is another’s jolly good bloke.
One person's yob is another’s lovable rogue.

So, if you look down on someone then its pretty much guaranteed that there's someone looking down on you.
People should be happy where they are accepted - with friends or in a community - not in a specific class. So don’t aspire to be part of a class or be apologetic for being in a class because there’s nothing you can do about it without changing yourself. Just live and enjoy.
If you want to be better than someone then take up a sport or play chess. At least the terms and conditions of such games specify the criteria by which someone is better.
Leadership is never attained by someone who discriminates between classes.
It’s not what you drive – it’s how its driven.
Class is like taste – there’s no accounting for it.

There are only five classes:
Those with power and self control.
Those with self control without power.
Those with power and no self control.
Those lacking power and self control.
Those who wouldn’t understand the above.

Is Posh (Spice/Beckham) really that posh?

I feel that the people who put importance on "class" are the ones who are lacking it.

Hear Hear, well said Bonny. :thumbsup:


Now then, let's check back on this thread ;)

Originally posted by Snook
I know what you mean, i feel very apologetic for being middle class, but i think that's because so many middle class people go around saying that working class people all spit and swear and drop litter, and i don't want to be associated with that.

That's backwards. I certainly didn't say that working class people can be identified by this behaviour. I said that this behaviour identifies a lower class of person.
In fact working class is very much about job and income. That's pretty irrelevant though, some of my friends work in warehouses, others in offices, and one not at all. They are all well spoken, well manered people though.

I went through a phase when I swore a lot, it happened to be when I was in the reserves and was just the norm there. When I left I consciously stopped the swearing as it was unpleasant and unneccessary.

Low income does not define someone as being lower class. But being lower class often means they have low income.
Cocktail/Dinner parties - does that have nothing to do with class? Will someone who swears all the time and mugs old ladies for their pocket change go home, change into evening wear and host a quiet gathering?

And the people who are decrying class and saying that it makes no difference to yourselves. Go and re-read your responses on the Chavs thread. That's the type of class i'm talking about, class defined by behaviour, not by birth or type of employment.

Originally posted by kilauea
I feel I have skirted around the classes a little in my life and I think for me the biggest diferentiator is "culture". Fashion, music, food (btw - I might have assumed you were of a "different" class to me by the very fact you were eating at burger king), choice of car etc.
It has to be remebered that you can have still have class - as in style - on a low budget.
I don't believe money has anything to do with it. I am "dropping out" soon from a very well paid job to a fairly poorly paid one because I believe I will gain greater personal satisfaction from it. I don't think my "class" will change as a result.

Agreed!

On of the best novels in recent years which examined the issue of social class in contemporary Britain was The Buddah of Suburbia. The main character describes the principle difference between the middle and working classes as, "...that they [the middle class] know their way around an entire culture, whereas I didn't have the faintest." That's a very important aspect.

I am working class, and only went to university as a mature student when I was 26. I felt in a very alien environment, because I simply wasn't used to living among middle class people, however good or bad their behaviour was.

However, I have met enough middle class people whom I have got on with fabulously to have taught me that it is the individual and their personality that determines whether we like or get on with another person or not.

Nevertheless, it is probably still true that it is more likely that members of your own class will appeal to you the most.

Even though I am working class, I do have the feeling that Neville Wran, the former State Primier of New South Wales in Australia, was not far from the truth when he said, "the best thing about being working class is getting out of it!"

[
Low income does not define someone as being lower class. But being lower class often means they have low income.
Cocktail/Dinner parties - does that have nothing to do with class? Will someone who swears all the time and mugs old ladies for their pocket change go home, change into evening wear and host a quiet gathering?

And the people who are decrying class and saying that it makes no difference to yourselves. Go and re-read your responses on the Chavs thread. That's the type of class i'm talking about, class defined by behaviour, not by birth or type of employment. [/B]

I think you're absolutely correct.

So what your saying is that class is nothing to do with where you live and what job you do and how much education you have? I thought that was the whole thingwith class... i mean, that is what defined peoples 'class'.... and i always thought it was rather stupid.... maybe not quite as stupid as saying you raise in class if you have cocktail parties and don't wear shell-suits. It seems like everyone has a different idea of class, so why not let everyone decide what class they are.

I said working class before, instead of lower class, because if they aren't the same thing, i have no idea what lower class is. I have never thought of working class as an insult, but it seems people are using lower case in an insulting way.

Working class, the class of people who are engaged in manual labor, or are dependent upon it for support; laborers; operatives; -- chiefly used in the plural.

Middle class, in England, people who have an intermediate position between the aristocracy and the artisan class. It includes professional men, bankers, merchants, and small landed proprietors

Upper class, the class occupying the highest position in the social hierarchy.

Anything else is just how someone acts, and has nothing to do with class but is more to do with style and etiquette.

I think that was the traditional position, but I suspect that the impact of technology and social reform has shifted the goalposts slightly.

However, it is still the case that it requires an educated person to perform professional jobs, and along with their education, they are likely to have acquired the habits of a more cultivated individual, and hence those characteristics come to represent what it means to be middle class.

Your point about not using the term working class in a derogatory fashion is fascinating, and potentially explosive! The so-called social inclusion initiative is - on the face of it - very egalitarian. However, I can't help thinking that it is predicated on the belief that working class people require imporvement, so that they can emulate the values of other social classes. On the other hand, if one ackowledges that social classes exist as differences between people, and there's nothing more to it, what does that say about extending fairness and opportunity across society?

Personally, I think the empowerment and emancipation of the individual is the best way to go about making society altogether more civil and humane, values which I think we would all subscribe to, whatever one's political persuasion. Although this is egalitarian thinking in my view, it is clearly incompatible with socialist planning and New Labour's preference for buearacracy and big government.

I think this highlights the central role of class and its associated values in society, and what would be the hallmarks of goodness, and a good life.

I was born in to a very working class family, and now view myself as educated working class. Some would consider me middle class - I'm not sure because I don't have any of the 'traditional' trappings of that class in terms of background, etc.

None of my character or behavioural traits I blame on or attribute to class. That's my personal development. The whole 'predetermination based on class' is Marxist twaddle and whether people like it or not is irrelevant today.

Don't judge soemone by their class - so much of that today is marketing and snobbery driven - but by their character and behaviour.

Joe

While I agree completely that it is the individual's characteristics which determine how we judge people - and this is right and proper - I do think that people raised in similar social circumstances will probably, although not necessarily, be inclined to have preferences for those of their own ilk.

Similarly, being raised in Britain and its culture has given us many shared characteristics which we would not share with a foreigner, and therefore give us more to connect with in our fellow countrymen and women. However, it is of course entirely plausible that we might get on with a particular foreigner we happen to meet and like than with our next door neighbour, for example. A good argument for rejecting patriotism, or its extremes.

Sorry to digress, but I thought it was a useful analogy.

I personally don't care about class, because as far as I'm concerned people are the same regardless of where they come from, how much money they make, what car they drive, whatever.

Just cos Joe Bloggs works for McDonalds, lives in Parson Cross and only drives a second hand Fiesta doesn't make him any less a person than Fred from say Ecclesall who lives in a 250 Grand house with a big garden and has 2.4 kids etc.

Originally posted by Cyclone

And the people who are decrying class and saying that it makes no difference to yourselves. Go and re-read your responses on the Chavs thread. That's the type of class i'm talking about, class defined by behaviour, not by birth or type of employment.

Feel free to check my posts on any "chav" thread. Not sure that I have posted on any but if I had then they would not indicate any hypocracy on my part I'm sure.

This has the beginings of a Monty Python sketch...lol.all we need now is John Cleese and the two Ronnies and we are all ready to go. I am middle class and look down on him.

Originally posted by Rich
I personally don't care about class, because as far as I'm concerned people are the same regardless of where they come from, how much money they make, what car they drive, whatever.

Just cos Joe Bloggs works for McDonalds, lives in Parson Cross and only drives a second hand Fiesta doesn't make him any less a person than Fred from say Ecclesall who lives in a 250 Grand house with a big garden and has 2.4 kids etc.

I agree, but that's not what I was talking about. If Joe is uncouth, has poor personal hygiene and fights a lot after his 10 pints every evening, and Fred is polite, well spoken and debate politics or science sensibly. Isn't that a different class of person?
Maybe class is an attitude, more than anything else.

vive la difference!

what may seem a better class of person in the north will always be looked down upon inthe south - stereotypically- mainly due to your 'working' class accents.

The other view of 'class' i guess is measured in £££

Originally posted by Cyclone
What does it mean to you?

I wear a suit to work, I don't swear often, I consider myself intelligent and articulate, well informed and politically active.
(I'll add for the moment, slightly inebriated).
I happened to go into burger king earlier because I was early for my swim and needed some food.

I felt like I belonged to a differnet class of people from the clientelle and staff. I don't normally feel like this, and before I get jumped on, some of my friends have jobs rather than careers, and no more education than GCSE level. But even they are intelligent, just not educated. They are still articulate, although maybe not to the same level as myself. The are certainly aware of current events, and possibly have some advantages on me in terms of social interaction (I don't like football, that's always awkward).

Things that make me notice a person as different can be many and varied. Dress, shell suits, track suits (unless in a gym), personal hygiene (actually that's a big one). A vacant expression and inability to respond sensibly to any question, random swearing (another big one), and also things that are really just an indication of income (a prejudice, damn my leathery hide), for example getting a cab from the supermarket...

I've forgotten where i'm going with this. Shoot me down as you will, or just comment.

I see in some ways where you coming from. When I wiorked at the Crucible (as a stage manager) I used to go to the bar after work in my work clothes which were stage blacks. Used to get strange looks from the suits (as I called them) who saw the theatre as something the the middle to upper classes.

Incidently I don't dress up to go to the theatre never have, don't see any reason why I should. You don't dress up to see someone act at the movies. I have gone in jeans and a tshirt to the west end.

Why do I need to be going to the gym to wear a tracksuit? I've never worn a trackie to the gym gone in normal street/work than change and I wear shorts as they give more freedom of movement.

If you feel the need to classify people this seems a much better way.
So where do you all say you would fit and why? Can you justify your choice of grouping?

Or more indicative is what your friends would say you were.


social value group

self actualisers =
focused on people and relationships, individualistic and creative, enthusiastically exploring change, 'in a framework of non-prescriptive consideration for others'.



innovators =
self-confident risk-takers, seeking new and different things, setting their own targets to achieve.


esteem seekers =
acquisitive and materialistic, aspiring to what they see are symbols of success, including things and experiences.


strivers =
attaching importance to image and status, as a means of enabling acceptance by their peer group, at the same time holding onto traditional values.


contented conformers =
wanting to be 'normal', so follow the herd, accepting of their circumstances, they are contented and comfortable in the security of their own making.


traditionalists =
averse to risk, guided by traditional behaviours and values, quiet and reserved, hanging back and blending in with the crowd.


disconnected =
detached and resentful, embittered and apathetic, tending to live in the 'ever-present now'.

without subjecting every person I meet in the street to a quick bit psycho analysis I can't classify people like that.

I can immediately judge their appearance, smell or lack of it, accent, conversational ability, intelligence, manners, style of dress, etc...

Originally posted by Cyclone
without subjecting every person I meet in the street to a quick bit psycho analysis I can't classify people like that.

I can immediately judge their appearance, smell or lack of it, accent, conversational ability, intelligence, manners, style of dress, etc...

You could JUDGE their appearance, smell, style of clothes immediately that is true. The rest I'm not so sure you could.

Also by doing that you could be totally wrong about the person.
It seems a little shallow in my opinion.

As an example: to you armarni clothes and aftershave may be top class. To me it makes no difference to someones social value.

Shouldn't we all be trying not to JUDGE anyway?

The whole "class doesn't matter anymore" argument doesn't wash with me. If this were true, I wouldn't see/hear the words "working class" and "middle class" on TV, radio and in newspapers several times a day. The issue wouldn't come up so often on here either. The lefties among us long for a generic world where everyone is equal, nobody judges and no generalisations are made. The realists among us can see that this is never going to happen for several different reasons, not least the nature of the human being.

Originally posted by Cyclone

Cocktail/Dinner parties - does that have nothing to do with class? Will someone who swears all the time and mugs old ladies for their pocket change go home, change into evening wear and host a quiet gathering?


Do people still "change into evening wear"?

As for swearing, I've made a living out of it.

I make a living out of swearing too. In fact i manage to sell the working class image to mostly middle class people who will pay large amounts of money to sit and watch 'real' people, all because it's art.

Class really doesn't matter now, class will not stop people doing anything they want to in todays society.

I'll have to dust off the smoking jacket and plan my next cocktail party. :D

Originally posted by Cyclone


What does it mean to you?




I was brought up being told to leave school as soon as possible and "Be proud to be Working Class"

What crap - only fools remain uneducated, low paid slaves.

Education and Qualifications are the keys to a better quality of life for you and your children. Get it whilst you can.

If those well paid "idiots" can be bosses - so can you.

Originally posted by Snook
Maybe, but i don't think the working class care that much. The working class also seem to mix with the upper class better than the middle class, in my humble experience... so i'm not sure that theory works. A large portion of the middle class just seem to look down on the working class as if they are scum... maybe that's it, and the upper class seem to see the middle class as rather snobbish wannabes.... Again, i think people should just be judged on a personal basis, and not because of their class or any other superficial reasoning.

Its true about the upper middle classes getting on better with the working classes. On one occasion working at a large country house a woman answered the door in jeans and t shirt, sat down with us and had a chat over a cup of coffee and a fag. Only when she mentioned that she had scraped the side of the f...... Bentley on the gatepost did we realise that she was Lady so and so, of so and so Hall, top bird.

In my opinion the biggest snobs are so called upwardly mobile types, think Whirlow,Fulwood etc.


Dragon

I'd love to be a snob if I could afford it.

I'd look down on all you peasants.

Originally posted by t020
The whole "class doesn't matter anymore" argument doesn't wash with me. If this were true, I wouldn't see/hear the words "working class" and "middle class" on TV, radio and in newspapers several times a day. The issue wouldn't come up so often on here either. The lefties among us long for a generic world where everyone is equal, nobody judges and no generalisations are made. The realists among us can see that this is never going to happen for several different reasons, not least the nature of the human being.

"The lefties among us" are on the right track as far as I am concerned. "The realists" have forgotten to take into account evolution. Isn't that part of human nature too?

I do find it quite amusing too that Cyclone's tag line mentions the old one person can't make a difference quote.

Apart from that T020, I thought that you didn't like to conform so why follow what you see on TV and read in the papers????? Make a stand for a non judgemental society!

I'm in a class of my own. I was in a special class at school and I was brought up to be proud of it.
We special class people get on especially well with the aristocracy and the under class but don't think much of all the other classes.
Does this make me a snob?

I don't think people should be judged on "class" ... isn't that what you were supposedly born into? My dad was an Oxford graduate but most people who know me consider me to be working class. Some people I know work a very hard and stressful day and go home with barely more than the minimum wage while their bosses are earning a lot more for less stressfull work. (A topical example would be First bus company... although my family have been very much inconvenienced by the strike we are still supporting their right to a decent wage!)

maybe the word class has conotations that i didn't mean when I posted the thread.

You judge and classify everyone and everything. It's how your brain works. So trying not to place people into little groups in your head is pointless. And first impressions are formed with about 20 seconds, so that doesn't leave room for much, you get the visual thing, a very short bit of conversation and that's it, first impression formed.

When I said "class" though, it wasn't about what job you do, or what job your parents do, it was about the person and their behaviour. Unfortunately it appears that there is 'some' link between the two, although not as strong possibly as it historically was.

It is something that you either have or have not.You cannot get it if you havent got it (so to speak). Well, at least I know what I am trying to say!

It is something that you either have or have not.You cannot get it if you havent got it (so to speak). Well, at least I know what I am trying to say!

I think you are talking about style not class

Things that make me notice a person as different can be many and varied. Dress, shell suits, track suits (unless in a gym), personal hygiene (actually that's a big one). A vacant expression and inability to respond sensibly to any question, random swearing (another big one), and also things that are really just an indication of income (a prejudice, damn my leathery hide), for example getting a cab from the supermarket...


I get a cab from the supermarket because I don't have a driving licence. These things are not always an indicator of income - you should try to think about a person's circumstance more.

Not always, I already made that qualification, just a damn good indicator.

Class to me is a mental illness people adopt.

I don't think I aspire to be high class. I aspire to be rich, but don't we all. And i'll probably end up, pretty well off. If I won the lottery tomorrow i might by a country mansion (is it a big jackpot?) and I already host cocktail parties and dinner for friends. What is high class, what is middle class and what is working class?

Money can not bring you class mate (can I still say 'mate' in this thread?), and no lottery win is going to make you upper class. Not even the 100 million euro draw.
Unfortunately I have one of the most common, grotesque sheffield accents around and i feel i am judged on it at times. There is nothing I can do about it. I see Sean Bean trying to do it all the time and it fails miserably. Now I just live with it.

My friends and work mates sometimes refer to me as 'class'. That'll do for me :)

You, your children or their children will regret having aspirations to increase your material posessions and quality of life which cause huge amounts of unsustainable waste and pollution. Your aspirations to be of a certain class will matter only due to the fact that the same misguided aspirations got us into this industrial, overpopulated mess.

I think you are talking about style not class

No I was talking about class. Here is an example.David and Victoria.They are 2 of the most famous people in the world , but from working class backgrounds, so, as I see it they are working class, but due to their fame and fortune, they are rich beyond anyones imagination.He plays foot ball and she tries to sing and parade around as though she is something special.
To me, the way that they behave is gross and in my opinion could never be said to be classy.they wear designer clothes and travel all over the world.

I was born in a working class background and so I am working class.However my children could be deemed to be middle class due to their upbringing, but as I was born working class, I dont see how I can be anything but .You can have a middle class lifestyle, but still be working class.

Anyway, as I take everything literally,middle class people work, so really they are also working class.

You, your children or their children will regret having aspirations to increase your material posessions and quality of life which cause huge amounts of unsustainable waste and pollution. Your aspirations to be of a certain class will matter only due to the fact that the same misguided aspirations got us into this industrial, overpopulated mess.

no wonder your'e a lonely lad........:)

Money can not bring you class mate (can I still say 'mate' in this thread?), and no lottery win is going to make you upper class. Not even the 100 million euro draw.
Unfortunately I have one of the most common, grotesque sheffield accents around and i feel i am judged on it at times. There is nothing I can do about it. I see Sean Bean trying to do it all the time and it fails miserably. Now I just live with it.

My friends and work mates sometimes refer to me as 'class'. That'll do for me :)

Same here regarding the accent, I have a good career and was brought up middle class but I have the most Yorkshire accent ever possible and I too feel I am sometimes judged on that.

Same here regarding the accent, I have a good career and was brought up middle class but I have the most Yorkshire accent ever possible and I too feel I am sometimes judged on that.

but why do you think you are middle class?..because you have a good career!money,possessions,and do you use your yorkshire accent when speaking to clients....or only when talking to those you regard as w/class.....which you probably are wether you like it or not........i am w/class...always have been ...always will be...immaterial of any possessions i have.......and i won't say working class and proud of it....i'm working class and not ashamed of it.....what IS your definition of w/middle class?...........:cool:

but why do you think you are middle class?..because you have a good career!money,possessions,and do you use your yorkshire accent when speaking to clients....or only when talking to those you regard as w/class.....which you probably are wether you like it or not........i am w/class...always have been ...always will be...immaterial of any possessions i have.......and i won't say working class and proud of it....i'm working class and not ashamed of it.....what IS your definition of w/middle class?...........:cool:

Not really thought about it to be honest, most of my friends said I had a middle class up bringing. I have the same accent no matter who I am speaking too I suppose I do relax my pronunciations when talking to friends etc, but I don't talk differently to people dependant on the perceived back grounds.

i often have the difficult errand of having to visit those with recent sudden bereavement...either in order to administer the last hope of life in the form of emergency first aid, or to console the grieving family in their time of need, assisting in making contact with family members....
i recently had two such incidents whereby i arrived in order to assist in cpr..fortunately to be met my the ambulance crew already there....
on the first occasion, i visited an outer city council estate..family on a moderate income...house in need of repair etc...
the ambulance crew were great having done all they could in order to assist in giving the unfortunate casualty another chance..however this was futile....the casualty unfortunately died..the family were really upsett and i helped where i could...
on the second occassion i visited a outer city suburban home, well to do family, hard working on a high income with 2 new cars parked outside..again i as met by ambulance crew, who again tried with all their might to assist in giving the patient another chance at life...this was futile...the family were appreciably upsett and i helped where i could....

the conclusion i drew from this was no matter who you are, what you wear and how extravagent a lifestyle you live...we all meet the same end....
and when i come there is little difference in how you are treated, after all, if those that try their best in the last moments to save life were to consider age/sex/lifestyle/colour/well dressed or not etc...the country would be in dire straights...and so would we!

there is no difference in class, and there is no glory in money if you are not around to spend it. Do not look at the differences in people in order to discriminate, consider the similarities to make friends and companions...

after all..the things that you see are only skin deep.:)