Just out of interest, what are peoples' opinions on baby guru types generally? Personally i have found that baby babychickens has developed a perfectly decent routine that encompasses plenty of night time sleep and happy play times without needing GF or the like say how long she can nap for after lunch.

For anyone who is a supporter of such books, have you found any that you think are really good?

I don't normally pop my head in here, but would like to remind users that Ms Ford is VERY protective of her on-line reputation, and has recently made (and is still making) efforts to close another online Forum down after some discussions that took place on the site.

So, please remember the rules of libel. :)

We'll keep a close eye on it, but it does seem to me that people have a right to express their opinions about her techniques and those of other baby care gurus/practitioners. I wonder what was said that made her so angry?

As long as comments are not personal or libellous, and concentrate solely on the techniques and how they have/have not worked for parents, I presume we're all right?

I don't normally pop my head in here, but would like to remind users that Ms Ford is VERY protective of her on-line reputation, and has recently made (and is still making) efforts to close another online Forum down after some discussions that took place on the site.

So, please remember the rules of libel. :)

From what I read, it seems as though that forum wasn't as effectively moderated as this one. :thumbsup:

We'll keep a close eye on it, but it does seem to me that people have a right to express their opinions about her techniques and those of other baby care gurus/practitioners. I wonder what was said that made her so angry?

As long as comments are not personal or libellous, and concentrate solely on the techniques and how they have/have not worked for parents, I presume we're all right?

Story here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2308932.html)

But I don't think the Times coverage has been particularly even-handed.

I don't want to hijack this thread but the other Forum was pretty reasonable in it's behaviour - in most respects they handled it in the same way that we would do.

This is why we work to keep on top of these things.

I don't want to hijack this thread but the other Forum was pretty reasonable in it's behaviour - in most respects they handled it in the same way that we would do.

This is why we work to keep on top of these things.

This must come as a surprise to those on SF who have been banned and had threads removed. I thought abuse toward fellow forummers was not tolerated here.

I'd also like to cite the example of Planner1 who was continually protected (quite rightly) when he posted on here in a professional capacity.

Can we get back on topic, please? Have changed the title to include all baby care gurus - after all, there's a huge spectrum of opinion out there, so why concentrate on just the one?

And please everyone bear in mind, it's the techniques and ethos we're discussing, not the personal lives of these professionals.

Crikey, i didn't realise GF was such a contentious issue - I don't hang around with other mothers very often, so don't often talk about her. A few people have recommended her to me "we would have gone mad without her" sort of thing, and a few have basically said they've found some good advice in her books, but to take her with a pinch of salt.

Thanks for posting that link, Tricky, and thanks for changing the poll options JoeP... I certainly don't want any trouble, I was just interested to know what people think.

I think the main - non-libellous - fact everyone needs to be aware of about GF is that she is not a parent herself.

I think that tells you everything you need to know.

Just out of interest, what are peoples' opinions on baby guru types generally? Personally i have found that baby babychickens has developed a perfectly decent routine that encompasses plenty of night time sleep and happy play times without needing Gina Ford or the like say how long she can nap for after lunch.

For anyone who is a supporter of such books, have you found any that you think are really good?

The key phrase here is 'developed a perfectly decent routine'. Clearly if your lucky enough that your baby does this naturally, you don't need a book to help you do the same.

With our first child, he didn't develop a routine and we were completely frazzled, never knowing when he might wake or how long he'd sleep for. Getting the contented baby book was one of the best things that happened to us as the health visitor/baby clinic couldn't offer any constructive advice.

We didn't follow the advice on crying or swaddling, but the advice on getting your baby into a routine that suits the parents was invaluable. I found her claims on the reduced instances of cholic interesting too.

With baby number two, we started out knowing what we were trying to achieve and haven't needed to pick up the book again.

Every child is different, obviously, and what works for one baby may well not work for another. I think my main concern is with panicky first time mums and dads who've felt pressured by one or another 'strict routine' books that only ended up making them feel inadequate and 'wrong'.

Me, I do think there's something to be said for books that help, as it isn't a perfect science...I just don't like them to be too prescriptive and bossy, and I take the advice with a pinch of salt. I still say I would have had a much harder time of it without 'What to Expect in the First Twelve Months' and 'How Not to be a Perfect Mother', and now I read Dr Green's 'Toddler Taming' as an occassional back up when I'm uncertain about something - because I think he has a common sense and humorous approach I can get on with.

The trick is finding the right one for you amongst all the many thousands of books and gurus out there.

We liked Toddler Taming too. We also got the Penelope Leach book to offset the GF one.

I didn't read any books regarding baby routines, except the first few pages for some freebie Baby Sleep Routine with Mother and Baby, which was too advanced for our babies at that stage.
Our girls generally sleep through up to 12 hours overnight and have a nap in the day so I'm guessing we did ok.
I heard a lot about people becoming too reliant of certain routines by certain authors and struggling to adapt with their child. Also that some routines don't allow for much freedom to have a life. ie be late home occasionally.
Might still investigate eventually, something about lairy babies as one of ours is a total giddy madam who has tantrums. Might look at other peoples approaches or maybe just leave it until we're at a stage of naughty step and warnings once she understands.

I did read the book and was quite disturbed about how rigid routines were for tiny babies including giving amounts of time they must sleep at what time of the day and insisting on waking them up after the prescribed time. What worried me most though was that I felt that what was prescribed was not conducive to setting up good breastfeeding and was likely to cause people to lose supply prematurely. No rigid routines are not for me. We do have routines in our house though like bedtime, eating times etc but nothing as rigid as that - would you not be tied to the house?

I read a chapter and freaked. She was instructing me when to eat toast !!!

Too much like the army for me.

Like Lisa I have strict bedtime and meal times but I never have a fixed day routine and could not see how I could implement for my baby and I. And my little one slept through the nights from 3 months old so it works for him too.

But my friend swore by it though she never joined us for biccies and gossip that much, too busy following the routine..

Toddle Taming I like as it is common sense and reassuring.

I thought I'd look for a thread on this and presto! there it was.

Anyway, sorry to resurrect this debate, but I'm interested in what others did for the whole routine thing. The reason for this is that I know of someone who used GF EXTENSIVELY (I mean the book was falling to bits before the baby was born), and have to say it looked like it worked well. However, I think it's resulted in a contented baby and two hellishly unhappy parents. I've had a page through it and refuse to use it, on the grounds of seeing how it's affected this couple. I just find it incredibly hard to get my head around being told when I can eat, or things like "the baby must be washed and dried no later than 6.15". Too much of a rebel?

But a routine is needed, so have other people used things like the Baby Whisperer or gone on good old instinct?

I have edited the poll and title, and have also made minor edits of various posts. Those of you who are already aware of the reasons for these edits, can I please request that you keep your comments factual and fair and exercise restraint. Those of you who are in the dark, please follow this link for further information before posting in this thread.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1839313,00.html

Thanks to you all for your co-operation with this - though I realise it might go against the grain, we don't want to put the Forum at risk. Where else would we spend our Saturday nights?:D

Cosy

When we had our baby boy (first child), neither of us had had much experience with babies - either within our own families or through friends. We had no idea about baby routines, sleep needed, etc and as two very un-routiney people ourselves, found it pretty difficult to work out what we should be doing. That's when we started really reading the books (which included GF). Initially they were a Godsend, although we never followed the routines strictly at least they gave us some idea of what should be happening. A classic example being that newborn babies get tired after 1 1/2 - 2 hours. We didn't even know that! I cringe to think of the amount of time we spent jiggling and playing with our newborn to try and get him to stop crying when in fact he just wanted to be left alone!!
Then after a few weeks when we had become confident we stopped using the books at all as we found that it was easy to become over-reliant on them and expect things to follow a routine each day - and panic when it doesn't!
Our 9 month is now very happy and a good sleeper - so we must have done something right!:)

Never heard of GF I'm afraid, but I do remember my experience of advice from a breastfeeding expert when my first baby was born. I felt very green and insecure and this lady was a leading authority on the subject apparently and used to speak at conferences all over the world, so I felt very privileged to have access to her. She told me that if I experienced any pain when breastfeeding then I was doing something wrong and I should get the baby to latch on again, and again, and again, until feeding was painless. A couple of times I even drove across town with a squawking baby so the expert could show us how we ought to be "latching on".

Eventually my midwife, herself a mother of three, decided it was time to intervene. She whispered in my ear that the expert had never even had any children herself, let alone breastfed, and she kindly pointed out that if a hungry baby is sucking hard on a sensitive part of your anantomy then of course it jolly well hurts - at least at first.

I know breastfeeding advice in particular can cause a great deal of contention, but that experience left me quite wary. It was also helpful in reminding me to filter any advice through my own common sense - which is something that tends to get pushed into the background when you're feeling all helpless and vulnerable after childbirth. :)

I have gone pretty well by instinct with both my children, and they have both been contented babies, so that worked well for us, but books I have read and liked have included

3 in a bed by Deborah Jackson
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Three-Bed-Benefits-Sleeping-Your/dp/0747565759

The continuum concept by Jean Leidloff http://www.amazon.co.uk/Continuum-Concept-Arkana-Jean-Liedloff/dp/014019245X/ref=sr_1_1/026-1578789-0582067?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177656894&sr=1-1

and I haven't tried myself but have heard recommended loads - The no-cry sleep solution by Elizabeth Pantley
http://www.amazon.co.uk/No-cry-Sleep-Solution-Through-Pantley/dp/0071381392/ref=pd_sim_b_2/026-1578789-0582067

For older children my bible has been Siblings without rivalry by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish
http://www.amazon.co.uk/No-cry-Sleep-Solution-Through-Pantley/dp/0071381392/ref=pd_sim_b_2/026-1578789-0582067

I've realised that I've spent a lot of time worrying about doing things 'right' according to the experts and read loads of books only to come full circle to trust my own intelligence and instincts. As long as my kids are happy and healthy it doesn't bother me if their routine is broken or all their food isn't home-made organic etc! Although I have got some good advice from books I think there's prob a lot of us feeling guilty out there for not being perfect!