I'm a big fan of the polymath / renassance man ideal and tend to think it's something that's sadly missing from the current educational system. My personal opinion is that it would be better to produce people who are rounded individuals (Uomo Universale) rather than people highly skilled in one field and clueless about everything else! (Having spent most of my life in education and earning my crust as a researcher it never ceases to surprise me just how clueless some people can be in areas outside their particular field!) However the some of the concepts tied up with the polymath / renaissance ideal man may be a touch outdated as they come from the 14-16th century (roughly). One of the books written at the time called The Book of the Courtier by Baldassare Castiglione laid out pretty much what was required from a renaissance man, and these can be distilled as:


Be able to defend himself with a variety of weapons, especially the sword.

Be able to play several musical instruments.

Be able to paint and output other works of art.

Be forever interested in advancing knowledge and science.

Be able to engage in debates regarding issues such as philosophy and ethics.

Be a skilled author and poet.


Do these still hold true in the 21st century or do we need a new ideal to work towards?

It certainly needs some updating...
Given how the law frowns upon people defending themselves with weapons, the first requirement is no longer relevant.
I struggle to see how the second requirement makes someone a more rounded individual... Some people have a natural aptitude for making music, and others don't.
Third requirement as second.
Fourth requirement I like, but maybe needs rewording.
Fifth as Fourth.
Sixth as for second and third...

Whether the 2nd, 5th and 6th should be replaced with alternatives, reworded or just removed... I'm not sure.


Be physically confident and of a good level of health.
Have an interest in diverse forms of art and culture
Take an active interest in a chosen field, and have passing familiarity with the scientific method and other areas of knowledge.
Be capable of polite debate on a broad range of issues.
Stays abreast of current affairs and problems facing society.


How do those sound?

As a renaissance man myself, i agree with all the criteria sited above, yet would add being able to speak at least two languages.

It is what Seb Coe used to call "being a well rounded person" and he didn't mean fat.

Why 'Man'?


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

Why 'Man'?

Because we're originally talking 14-16th century when it (with a very few exceptions) would be a man! This is probably one of the concepts that needs updating!

Because we're originally talking 14-16th century when it (with a very few exceptions) would be a man! This is probably one of the concepts that needs updating!
And in this day of equal rights every woman should be able to service the family car and every man should be able to change a nappy, cook a meal, and do the housework the same as they do anyway.:)

I reckon Heinlein's definition has it.

I reckon Heinlein's definition has it.
Do you mean when he said, ""specialization is for insects."

you forgot the bit about being able to put up shelves, mow the lawn without moaning about it, and be a fantastic lover .... :suspect:

not all on the same day, of course ... we can't expect miracles :D

Don't be so defeatist Ruby... course you can expect that level of service!!;)

Do you mean when he said, ""specialization is for insects."
Yep. He's right. What makes humans human is their incredible adaptability, having evolved their brain, rather than parts of their bodies.

"If god had wanted men to fly, he would have given them wings"

"True, but he didn't so they worked it out for themselves".

Don't be so defeatist Ruby... course you can expect that level of service!!;)

What I love about threads like this, is the wonderful male ability to just post around anything that doesn't fit the picture :hihi:

*is now imagiinng the guys posting on the thread so far as Renaissance Men ...

*ponder*

No, just not seeing it somehow :D

you forgot the bit about being able to put up shelves, mow the lawn without moaning about it, and be a fantastic lover .... :suspect:

not all on the same day, of course ... we can't expect miracles :D
That's right, every woman should be able to do it.

Yep. He's right. What makes humans human is their incredible adaptability, having evolved their brain, rather than parts of their bodies.

"If god had wanted men to fly, he would have given them wings"

"True, but he didn't so they worked it out for themselves".
And if it was necessary for survival we would all have died.

The Modern Renaissance Man/Woman needs the following:

- Know how to put together flat pack furniture and furthermore to develop the advanced skill of understanding how to berate the 18 year old customer services rep to tears on the phone when the allen key is found to be missing.

- Know how to parallel park and how to tut at those who cannot.

- Know how to connect complicated combinations of audio visual equipment and be prepared to change this every years as a new format comes out.

- Know that middle age has arrived when the fatal words "this country's gone to the dogs" are uttered.

- Know each and every route around the nation which avoids roadworks, caravans and speed cameras and be able to nod sagely in the pub when engaged in regular discussion of this topic.

- Know how to successfully hide a fondness for Big Macs, fizzy wine and Haribos while maintaining the appearance of being a sophisticated consumer of an ethical mung bean only diet.

What I love about threads like this, is the wonderful male ability to just post around anything that doesn't fit the picture :hihi:

*is now imagiinng the guys posting on the thread so far as Renaissance Men ...

*ponder*

No, just not seeing it somehow :D
Ruby, he is talking about having a wide range of knowledge, skills, and interests. It applies to everyone, I just don't see women mowing the lawn and putting up shelves. What right have you got to expect someone to do it for you. Women asked for equal rights and you have got them. You do it yourself or pay someone to do it for you if you can't.

What I love about threads like this, is the wonderful male ability to just post around anything that doesn't fit the picture :hihi:

*is now imagiinng the guys posting on the thread so far as Renaissance Men ...

*ponder*

No, just not seeing it somehow :D


Pay attention! We've already established the 'Man' part is outdated. Now do you have anything to contribute or will you be fulfilling your female destiny by sitting idly by venturing unhelpful comments?

;)

That's right, every woman should be able to do it.

Well we can, but we shouldn't have to do everything for the home and family. Men have to be prepared to do something for their keep.

Other than be Renaissance Men, of course.

*looks around for her sword and shield ... and extensive tool kit :D

oh fgs ... I don't mind being patted on the head by fatuous men but how can you even think of laying claim to being Renaissance Men, when you can't see when you're having the michael taken out of you ...


*snigger*

leaves thread to be a self congratulatory males preserve

Well we can, but we shouldn't have to do everything for the home and family. Men have to be prepared to do something for their keep.

Other than be Renaissance Men, of course.

*looks around for her sword and shield ... and extensive tool kit :D
Look love, my wife died when my daughter was five years old and I brought her up singlehandedly. I get fed up with all this we are better that you. Prove it and put some shelves up for me. I don't do anything for my keep, I look after myself, and when my mother was elderly, who was her career? Me.

oh fgs ... I don't mind being patted on the head by fatuous men but how can you even think of laying claim to being Renaissance Men, when you can't see when you're having the michael taken out of you ...


*snigger*

leaves thread to be a self congratulatory males preserve
Yes, well it took a lot out of me and a large part of my life also and I don't find it very funny.

Ruby, he is talking about having a wide range of knowledge, skills, and interests. It applies to everyone, I just don't see women mowing the lawn and putting up shelves. What right have you got to expect someone to do it for you. Women asked for equal rights and you have got them. You do it yourself or pay someone to do it for you if you can't.


Equal rights is not about women turning into men or doing everything men do. Its about women having an equal place in the world as men. Women having respect in the same way men do. Womens roles having equal respect.

A woman can be equal to a man and be crap at DIY, that is a character flaw or not being skilled at something, it doesn't mean she should be forced to learn it because "Well you wanted equal rights love"

I know plenty of blokes crap at DIY, does that make them less male? No.

Equal rights is not about women turning into men or doing everything men do. Its about women having an equal place in the world as men. Women having respect in the same way men do. Womens roles having equal respect.

A woman can be equal to a man and be crap at DIY, that is a character flaw or not being skilled at something, it doesn't mean she should be forced to learn it because "Well you wanted equal rights love"

I know plenty of blokes crap at DIY, does that make them less male? No.
Fine but we don't need snide remarks from the women all the time.

I did the lot when i was with my ex, I did the housework the garden, the shopping, along with caring for a baby daughter and a disabled lad, and caring for her. I also held down a job for as long as i could, and when i could no longer work I went on various training courses.
I know this is hardly relevant but my current partner is a godsend, she can put up shelves, lay carpets, decorate, in fact she can do most things that a man can do and many things that i wouldnt even attempt to do.

Because we're originally talking 14-16th century when it (with a very few exceptions) would be a man! This is probably one of the concepts that needs updating!

Nah, I think we've seen enough to suggest that it was probably right in the first place.

Anyone need a plug wiring?

It certainly needs some updating...
Given how the law frowns upon people defending themselves with weapons, the first requirement is no longer relevant.
I struggle to see how the second requirement makes someone a more rounded individual... Some people have a natural aptitude for making music, and others don't.
Third requirement as second.
Fourth requirement I like, but maybe needs rewording.
Fifth as Fourth.
Sixth as for second and third...

Whether the 2nd, 5th and 6th should be replaced with alternatives, reworded or just removed... I'm not sure.


Be physically confident and of a good level of health.
Have an interest in diverse forms of art and culture
Take an active interest in a chosen field, and have passing familiarity with the scientific method and other areas of knowledge.
Be capable of polite debate on a broad range of issues.
Stays abreast of current affairs and problems facing society.


How do those sound?

Not sure - that's a bit of a cerebral approach! Knowing about art/culture is not the same as taking parting in artistic/cultural practices. Also the take an active interest in a chosen field smacks to me a little bit specialisation rather than universalism!

I'm sorry for being facetious with you all ... it just tickled my funnybone, ...I'm in that sort of mood today somehow .. Spring fever, 6 months too late :hihi:

I'm sorry for being facetious with you all ... it just tickled my funnybone, ...I'm in that sort of mood today somehow .. Spring fever, 6 months too late :hihi:
That's alright but there are a lot of gender issues out there, people are suffering, and it is easy to touch a raw nerve. Cheers. :)

Not sure - that's a bit of a cerebral approach! Knowing about art/culture is not the same as taking parting in artistic/cultural practices. Also the take an active interest in a chosen field smacks to me a little bit specialisation rather than universalism!
I suppose the school curriculum is designed to give an insight into various academic subjects and physical activities also, but by the very nature of schooling I suppose they only scratch the surface, I mean there is the world of difference between "A" level maths and pure maths, not that I would know, and sorry to say the time when teachers took the children on extra curriculum activities is long gone. It must be about fifteen years since I saw teachers bringing children to school orienteering events, and that side of things has closed down now unfortunately. Orienteering was called the thought sport and was dominated by lecturers, teachers, and managers. It was good.

I suppose it depends on what takes your fancy and it is a good job we are all different.

My work was in electronics and you have to be logical to understand logic. I also loved to play around designing simple amps and timers etc. and building them and sorting out the bugs. Photography was a big interest, especially the developing and printing. Then I took up running and later cycling when I wrote a couple of books on cycle routes in the Peak District, and in collaboration with a friend we wrote a novel which we self published and made about £400.00 profit, so I don't suppose we did too badly. Then I took a self defence course that started on Fir Street, it was based on Judo but after learning the basics the university students who took the course were really into Karate and that is the way it went and I'm afraid I wasn't interested in learning the Kata's so I drifted away. Then of course there is religion and researching history based around Robin Hood and the 12-14 century. I'm sure I have missed something out, but anyway it was far better than watching Emmerdale and a fairly wide spread of interests. I know I used to love using 741 op-amps, they did everything. Are they still around?

Well, I'm pretty confident I have a broad enough range of talents to qualify. Music and languages, however, are not fields I've really explored. I do have a lot of French information/vocab stored in my head, having begun at 6, but cannot speak any languages fluently. I've always stood out as the one with a large breadth of talents and am gathering them together on my portfolio:

timothy-clark.com/mag

There's still a lot more to show, but you'll see I'm very athletic, well-rounded artist, web designer, etc. and am becoming very involved in political philosophy, particularly pertaining to anarchism, which is at the heart of my personality. Parody and satire exists within a lot of my work, and I've shown incredible talents in comedy, but only to friends.

I personally feel it does need re-defining, largely because new technologies have entered the equation, as have many other disciplines. You have to imagine that if Leonardo was around today, although I'm sure he'd still be taking a keen interest in traditional media, he'd also be heavily immersed in new media.

There's a tendency for parents to groom their child into becoming a renaissance man. What use is a renaissance man in a contemporary world?

Also, I feel that when one is of a certain intelligence, disciplines such as language largely involve retention of knowledge, like most fields in the educational system. I made my own response to the educational system, as you'll see on my portfolio.

I guess it also comes down to how you define polymath. Knowledge or talents.