I got taxi a few days ago and the taxi driver was telling me all about a girl that got stabbed to death on the corner opposite Yates. I was then chatting to a policeman later on that day and he knew nothing about it which I thought was odd and, to be honest, a bit worrying!

I just can't understand why anyone could hate someone so much that they have to kill them?!

I don't know if the story I've heard is true or not but if it is what the hell do girls think when they go out?

Packing their handbag they grab their lippie, mobile, money.... kitchen carving knife????:loopy:

I mean c'mon! If that is true then it means their are people out there going out planning to kill someone and that makes me feel unsafe!

Does anyone know anymore about the incident?

Are the police doing a good enough job in keeping our streets safe?

What do you lot think?

Sparklesista x x x

As the police have someone in connection with this crime, the fcat that the policeman you spoke to said he knew nothing is quite likely to be a case of sub-judice - i.e. he's not going to say anything to a total stranger that might influence a prosectution. He has no idea who you are - why should he share gossip?

As for whether the police are doing enough - well, they have someone for it and short of sticking police officers on every corner of ever street in the city centre I don't know what more could be done.

A bigger issue is, like you said, what's going through the heads of people when they get tooled up for a night out? What's happened in society so that two people can't settle a disagreement without resorting to stabbing?

Quite a large number of people today seem to have little self control and self discipline at the best of times and it clearly goe out of the window as soon as they get drunk. And it's not just Sheffield - Leeds, Manchester, London - all suffer from the same problem.

Perhaps we need to REDUCE the number of licensed premises, ban happy hours and promote a more adult drinking culture until people start being able to exhibit a little self-discipline.

It's Monday and I haven't had my caffeine yet....:-)

Joe

We shouldn't be relying on the police to keep the streets safe - they are there if things get out of hand not as a first resort. What we really need is for people to take a little more responsibility for their actions and, unfashionable as it may be at the moment, actually think a bit about other people...

The tendency for people to carry weapons on their person is extremely worrying, especially when people go out to deliberately get drunk.
Hundreds of people are staggering about in the city centre at night in a state which would have seen them locked up for the night in the 1950's.
Clubs and pubs must take a lot of the blame for selling drinks to people who are already clearly intoxicated.

When there's trouble in a club why are both parties evicted at the same time? This isn't the only occaision where death has resulted from a continuation on the street. The violence frequently continues in this way often at a more serious level.
Clubs should evict the party which seems to have started the trouble first and give the second party 30 minutes before being asked to leave (if they are behaving) to prevent an escalation on the pavement.
Metal detectors on the door?

I notice that people go out of an evening much much earlier than when I was a lad and stay out longer. People must behave more responsibly. If all drunks were rounded up like stray dogs and put in a cell with no bed or heating for the night, it could well have the desired effect in a very short space of time.
Build a barracks for jailing drunks overnight and charge them the full cost of their accommodation

Since i first started going down town ten years ago i have seen the number of police on the streets gradually rise.

I think its quite upsetting that people cannot go for a night out without resorting to violence.

Whilst the police sometimes can be seen as a hate figure by the moronic elements of society, I for one am glad that they have upped their presence.

I rarely go on division street now, its not worth the hassle of avoiding drunk women and blokes looking for a fight.

Originally posted by JoePritchard

Perhaps we need to REDUCE the number of licensed premises, ban happy hours and promote a more adult drinking culture until people start being able to exhibit a little self-discipline.



Completely agree about the binge drinking on cheap offers. Did you see that recent TV documentary about the problem in Nottingham ? The police, ambulance crews, and A&E medical staff have to spend far too much time dealing with drunks and people injured in fights. There is some pressure from the council there to curb the happy hour offers etc.

Perhaps it's about time the amulance service and hospitals started chargeing for rescuing people from their own stupidity ?

I'm sure I saw an item on Look North recently about Sheffield police planning a crackdown on drunken behaviour in the city centre. I'd suggest some random breathalysing the morning after pay every month !!

I always feel safe out in town, with the police and those security guards employed by the council its quite safe.

But if someone comes out determined to cause trouble (such as that stabbing.. the girl brought a kitchen knife with her!) there isnt much you can do.

i was talking to one of the doormen a couple of days after it happend,i too found it hard to belive that a bird would go out with a kitchen knife but apparently it wasn,t like that.....one of the girls in the fight phoned someone up for back up and it was she who brought the knife.

Sheffield has and always will be 10 years behind manchester and 5 years behind leeds, there where guns being pulled and used in the hacienda in the early 90's and shootings and stabbings at bars in Chapletown shortly after so it's just catching up.

I don't feel so safe anymore and I've lived here all my life, it is nice to see the police walking around town though I'm really pleased about that one. But it'll get a lot lot worse before it gets better, especially in certain places like carver street/bottom of division street and the crap clubs nearby.

At some point british police will have to be armed at all times, I know liberalism and our view of democracy hates the idea but someone would think twice about pulling a knife out on a saturday night if there's a couple of coppers with shooters up the road.

Didn't someone get stabbed outside ponana as well?

I seem to remember that a few weeks back I started a post called 'Let's civilise our city centre'. Despite support from a few forum members the majority of posts suggested I was in favour of some sort of cross between disney World and Nazi Germany. What rubbish!

I was accused of wanting a police state because i said there should be more protection for law abiding people in the city centre at nights. The truth is you can't have it both ways. If people are opposed to more police and police powers then such tragic evens like this will keep happening.

Just to slightly change the subject but I dont think police powers will change behaviour like this-you have to educate and prevent this sort of behaviour in indviduals. However, I have no idea how to stop anti-social behaviour!

I think if all drunks knew that they would likely get banged up in a cold cell for the night and then have to pay £6o B&B the next day, they'd soon get the message.

Is it down to the trendy bars aimed at the younger generation of drinkers? There was a time when offspring were introduced to social drinking with families and neighbours and through simply being there and observing, would learn much about social etiquette. Now it's these trendy bars, binge drinking, music to get manic by and 'being hard' in front of your mates - not hard just stupid but there you go. One day they'll look back and see themselves for what they were/are and hopefully evolve enough to catch up with the rest of society.

As for the police, they need so much more than just a 'presence' to effectually deal with such incidents and it's a shame that ALL bars and clubs don't have decent CCTV technology as well as staff trained in first aid for the victims of such pathetic behaviour.

I agree with what you are saying. Ok, so there is alot of police walking up and down the streets but it seems that they never seem to be there when a fight kicks off!

I think clubs and pubs should have metal detectors on the doors, I know I'd feel safer.

I've also noticed that some of the drinks offers are priced at £1 a drink. Although a lot of us will be like "wa hey cheap drinks!" We forget about the people out there that are getting paraletic because of it. I'm not sure what changes I would make as it's a bit of a catch 22!

What changes would you make?

Alot of people don't like the big clubs but for those of you that do, what would you change about the big clubs like Kingdom and GC1 to make it more enjoyable for you?

Thanks!

Sparklesista x x x

Originally posted by JoePritchard
As the police have someone in connection with this crime, the fcat that the policeman you spoke to said he knew nothing is quite likely to be a case of sub-judice - i.e. he's not going to say anything to a total stranger that might influence a prosectution. He has no idea who you are - why should he share gossip?

As for whether the police are doing enough - well, they have someone for it and short of sticking police officers on every corner of ever street in the city centre I don't know what more could be done.

A bigger issue is, like you said, what's going through the heads of people when they get tooled up for a night out? What's happened in society so that two people can't settle a disagreement without resorting to stabbing?

Quite a large number of people today seem to have little self control and self discipline at the best of times and it clearly goe out of the window as soon as they get drunk. And it's not just Sheffield - Leeds, Manchester, London - all suffer from the same problem.

Perhaps we need to REDUCE the number of licensed premises, ban happy hours and promote a more adult drinking culture until people start being able to exhibit a little self-discipline.

It's Monday and I haven't had my caffeine yet....:-)

Joe

I just want to say that policeman genuinley didn't have a clue and was asking ME about it!

He looked quite surprised to be honest but I guess not everyone had heard about it. He might of been off for those couple of days, who knows?

Thanks!

Sparklesista x x x

Its a funny issue this innit...

I personally ain't bothered about walking round town on a weekend but then I am 6'3" and about 16 stone so I don't tend to get folk hassling me much.

But yeah the combination of the "lets have 15 stellas" mentality and lads with their preoccupation with trying to be hard ain't a good mix.

The coppers on the whole do a good job at the weekend- they cant be everywhere at once can they? Maybe if they weren't of chasing speeders and potheads?

Why does this country have this culture of binge drinking though? Anyone know? From what I've seen were about the only nation where its taken off? Any sociologists out there that can shed any light?

I honestly think some of it is down to our quality of life, we have one of the lowest ratings of all the "rich" countries in europe.

Everyone seems to be pi**ed off constantly, I'll include myself in that, I'm not gonna go out looking for trouble carrying a weapon but 1 person out of a bar of 150 people maybe will. A bad week at work or they've lost their job or whatever hit the drinks early doors and your off...

The cheap drinks thing is a tricky one to answer, I reckon better licensing laws would make a huge difference, it would take years for it to settle and become the norm but people would stop cramming in the drink before 11.00.

I've got a friend in Reykjavik in Iceland - bars are open 24 hours from thursday to sunday and they have more or less no crime at all - a car being stolen makes the headlines on TV. Alright the population is the same of S10 and S6 combined but it honestly seems like some kind of utopian country - been thinking of moving over there for a while.

I always remember being on holiday in greece after finishing my a levels and when the police went past all the bars everyone moved, shut up and the music went off, I'm sure many of you have seen it, police with semi-automatic rifles telling you to move - which you do.

I reckon the government know that armed police is the right step towards a solution but the shock it would cause would be immense - I'd vote for it, if it's going to stop people from getting stabbed outside bars and 80 year old pensioners being mugged and sometimes murdered by bag heads then get them the guns and get them on the streets where they can be seen.

I'm no sociologist mate but I reckon it's down to this country being a sh*te place to live I'd list the factors but it'll take a while, start with our average income and end with house prices then just fill in everything else between.

Maybe a thousand years ago all the saxon settlers where spending their weekend holed up in some mud hut out of the rain and just proceeded to drink and drink, and its never changed - maybe it's in our genes?

Your right I don't know of anywhere else in europe that adopts this way of drinking like we do - except in the darker parts of scandanavia where people drink and drink then kill themselves because it never gets light for 3 months...

Originally posted by magicgem
Just to slightly change the subject but I dont think police powers will change behaviour like this-you have to educate and prevent this sort of behaviour in indviduals. However, I have no idea how to stop anti-social behaviour!

the birch would be a good place to start

doesn't help the girl thats dead does it

Originally posted by wiseguy
doesn't help the girl thats dead does it

agreed but people might think twice before doing stabbings etc,then again it might not but its worth a try

try retreiving the mess i e bodies

Originally posted by wiseguy
try retreiving the mess i e bodies

eh?

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
I think if all drunks knew that they would likely get banged up in a cold cell for the night and then have to pay £6o B&B the next day, they'd soon get the message.

And those who needed hospital treatment for self-inflicted injury charged the full cost of ambukance crews and their treatment in A&E.

I don't believe the police having guns will make a jot of difference to the levels of crime and violent crime that we are seeing on a daily basis in this country.

You only have to look at America to see how it just does not work.

Instead of guns there needs to be tougher laws. We need to adopt zero tolerence on the "petty crimes" such as car theft, burglary, robbings, violent attacks, vandalism etc...

I'm a big believer in that if you stop the "small" crimes you have a much better chance of preventing the "bigger" ones.

For example, a young lad smashes the bus shelter on a regular basis and gets away with it everytime. As time goes on he starts smashing people's windows, and gets away with it. He then moves on to car windows, bus windows etc and all the time he is getting away with it he is in the frame of mind that he will never "get done". He gives him the confidence to move onto "bigger" things.

We need to nip things in the bud as soon as they happen. The little sh*t who vandalises the phone box on a friday night needs to be punished ie. being forced to pay for the damage done, this will probably mean the parents have to pay but he is their responsibility afterall. Some form of community service should be enforced aswell just to make sure he has learnt his lesson.

Hi Folks

Mr Jingles is a little out of touch!

I use to work for Niche, Capital and the Pod ten years ago, also Manchester from time to time!

I also worked for other clubs in and around in Sheffield.

I have seen Guns held at bar staff for drinks, stun guns been produced, and shoot bys!

Where have you been?

I was even attacked by a Samurai Sword myself on the streets, there was even an article in the local star!

Was I Security staff, nope, just the guy who kept the sound systems and light systems ticking over!

Niche was notoriously the chill out place for a stream of gangsters who use to frequent this place, alot of them involved in drug related crime.

Although with such a high turn over of undesirables, the club never saw a great deal of fighting, or trouble, as most of the Criminals held high regard for the businessman owner, Steve Baxendale!

But towards the end, outsiders were moving in trying to sell drugs, guys with total disregard to others safety, club staff etc, they meant business, and wanted to supply in the busy clubs!

Mr Steve Baxendale was very anti drugs, a keepfit fanatic and former strongman, he came down on Drug trafficers very hard indeed. His brother also, Mick Baxendale , a martial arts expert,who manged the club Niche also took a dim view to people selling Drugs in the club, he evicted and personally would escort anyone found in the club doing drugs or go down the proper avenue of informing the police if they seemed to be drug trafficing on a large scale.. His upstanding character and rightousness would be his demise, for one such group of people attempting to deal in the club, returned to visit Mr Michael Baxendale, this time tooled up with knives. Mr Michael Baxendale was brutallly murdered for being an upstanding pillar of the community at his place of work.

I never went back to working the clubs after that, for Mr Michael Baxendale was an expert in Martial arts, and very atute and diplomatic when it came to dealing with undesirables in the club.
If it could happen to a guy like Michael Baxendale, then it could happen to anyone.

I personally held Mr Michael Baxendale in high regard, he was well respected and liked by everyone, he was courteous, intelligent, extremely smart on all occassions, it was a great loss of life, and he will be greatly missed!

On a personal note, people who are tooled up in town with intent to maime, should be given stricter sentences, just for carrying with intent.

The Law is a funny thing when it comes to powers of arrest by Door supervisors. For they have to be careful that they act within the Law, should anyone be thought to be carrying any offensive weapon.

I would be more concerned of companies employing Door Supervisors who are of unstable minds, or taking Steroids, which increases the chance of them going into a rage against punters frequenting clubs.

Not all Door Supervisors are like this, and with the recent introduction of council trained Door Supervisors a few years ago, which not only trains then in aspects of Law, but also First aid and actiig in a diplomatic and assertive manner when it comes to dealing with difficult punters.

But, be warned, some door supervisors attitude, is that it is you, or them. and in such instances, I have seen since leaving employment at Niche, Capital and the Pod , at other clubs, door Supervisors tooled up with knobbling sticks (Ball bearing on the end of a spring)and stun guns on many occassions! Yuo cant blame them sometimes, they follow the issuing of weapons to aid control of a punter, much like the police set precedence, carrying Truncheons etc! But unfortunately, some of these people are not using them as a last resort in a legal and correc t manner, or have the power to use such weapons as means to control unruly people. *I think Bouncers should be given some sort of device to use, that could deter people kicking off in the first place.

A friend of mine who was with me at the time clubbing only a few years ago was asked to make is way to the door, as the Bouncers were escorting people from the club premises, I was just coming out of the toilet, in Issabellas nightclub, to see to my horror, a bouncer throw a kick to my friend, who had his back turned to a flight of stairs. He was kicked down the stairs, landing on his back. which caused him severe pain, he manged to get to his feet and I went to his aid, calling the bouncer an idiot,, upon reply i got do you want one mate!

We left the club!

My friend recovered. but this was one of many instances I saw where Bouncers were well over reacting to the situation, I think bouncers should be given drug tests to work on the doors!

The problem is, when people are drunk, they behave as badly as you could possibly imagine. I have seen guys at 6ft punch and kick women half their weight and punch them in the face, because they have jumped a queue outside a club, or at the Taxi Rank! I even saw this happen in Barkers pool recently, with, 3 police vehicles present. The one closest was too busy chatting up the ladies whilst this took place only 15 feet from their car.

I went to intervene, me and a friend went to apprehend the guy, then I went over to the police car to inform them somewone had been assaulted, to my amazement, the officer, do you mind, I am having a conversation here!

Most police spend half their time chatting up the ladies ,go and view this yourself, the next time your out! You would think that been vigalant to a crime been committed would be on the top of the list!

In the end, we waited another 5 minutes, then let the suspect go and walk away, the police still chatting to the ladies!

I have seen women attack Bouncers with stilleto shoes, on one occassion embedding the heal into a boncers skull in Josophines, where the bouncer turned round to face her and decked her with one punch, the shoe hanging form his skull!

He was dismissed for that! WOW!

Some regualtions need to be introduced. stiffer penalties for offenders carrying weapons with intent, even stiffer if caught using such weapons!

Bouncers need to be searched now and then, to see if they are tooled up. as this can only cause the maiming of someone.

The police need to have their act smartened up too, not chatting to girls, maybe more on foot, rather than in patrol cars, they could have a response vehicle close to hand, should they need one.

I remember one Bouncer who had been stabbed on one occassion, working on a door in Sheffield at Sadaccas, a guy is arguing over the price to get in the club, reaches into the back of his pocket, where upon the bouncer immediately punches him in the face and knocks him to the ground, the punter laying there with guess what in his hand, a Wallet!

For me, there is one main aspect that fuels all this trouble, at a cost to the tax payer, increased club entrance fees, etc, that is one Culprit>

DRINK!

Remove this, and you remove all the problems, for it is usually started by some drunken lout, male and females, and if the Bouncers on Steroids, this is a Red rag to a bull, a very powerful bull usually who can do alot of damage, or maybe someone who does not wish to hurt his hands, so uses a tool for coreective behavior!

Funny, we do not need people monitoring in the day time in town, because there are very little people drunk!

Then there is the criminal damage done also!

I think, a limit should be set on the amount of Alcohol allowed, some sort of Breathalyser in the clubs to measure amount consumed! Or a stiffer penalty for Drunk and disorderly!

Probably clutching at straws with that one, while ever there is profit, that will be put before safety, thats for sure, the revenue from drink far outweighs peoples safety!

Regards

Mark. .

What a great reply Howy. I thoroughly enjoyed reading about your experiances and thoughts. You should write a book. What do you recon forumers, is Howy a modern JD Stallanger - It kinda read like a year 2000 catcher in the rye!

Howy you have lived a lot and seen a lot mate. Great tails.

Dave

Mutual Respect, it takes a great man to publically praise another!

Orson Wells ...

~Hi there

By the way, the author of 'Catchers in the rye' was jD salinger!

:-)
Regards
Mark ..

Originally posted by Howy
~Hi there

By the way, the author of 'Catchers in the rye' was jD salinger!

:-)
Regards
Mark ..

If youre going to be pedantic, at least try and get it right yourself. It was called "The Catcher In The Rye" No "S" in "Catcher", see? :rolleyes:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Saifa
[B]Its a funny issue this innit...

Quote:The coppers on the whole do a good job at the weekend- they cant be everywhere at once can they? Maybe if they weren't of chasing speeders and potheads?end of Quote:

draggletail reply:
'potheads' are about the last people to give anyone any sort of trouble! If challenged, would probably give you a really big smile and a hug:hihi:

I totally agree with you there i don't actually smoke the old wacky baccy myself but know plenty of people who do as do i know plenty of people who drink and regulary too excess.
potheads/stoners what ever you want to call them are just relaxing in same way drinkers do with a few pints or whatever your drink is it doesn't mean to say that they are some big druggy who is definelty going to be drawn into the seedy world of drugs and become a smackhead within 6 months, because that's where it starts..... Yeah right ! it really infurates me that this is the picture normally painted by our media, hollyoaks yesterday for example, and in the past other tv programmes too.
If it was that dangerous it wouldn't be legal in some countries now would it.
How much do we spend each weekend on arresting/treating people who drink too much and how many people die too in comparison to something that has no recorded fatatlities i.e smoking weed !
I myself do like a drink or 3 but for me it is the actual drink i enjoy i'm not doing it so that my head can spin and i can puke ! I use to live in spain and it is a very different philosphy there, you drink but it's about enjoying the journey not try to get to the destination as quick as possible. Again there licensing is much later and i don't recall seeing as many problems as you do here unless they were from british tourists !!
Here we to much into get to the pub at 8 and not being happy until we can get as drunk as possible as quickly as possible.
There they go out later, spend proper time with friends/family talking while drinking a normal evening is too sit and eat again not for the purpose but because they enjoy eating spending time over the meal / drink talking not half an hour with a take away or tv meal ! then to sit round chatting while still drinking, tehn move on to bars/nightclubs a mcuh more civilised night out and i think we could really learn from our european friends. Why are we such louts ? Its not big and it's not clever ! I think later licsense for the uk would be good but we have to prove we can handle it or is because we are on a time limit that we behave like this the old tell you cant do something you wanna do it more kinda syndrome.
I don't know the answers but if we changed the licensing laws it might get worse before it's get better but I bet future generations would be less likely to act the brainless idiots we do at times.

I was out on Saturday night around the various town centre pubs and noticed a very high police turnout including video vehicles normally reserved for football games.
I'm happy that the authorities are doing what they can and reflect the general feeling that we have to change the attitude of the revellers.

Most people are out for a break and to chat with mates but alcohol does turn a few people into aggressive idiots.

Could there be a medical or mental test to see if you are vulnerable to becoming aggressive after consuming alcohol?

this is why i dont like going into sheffield to drink. ok, 99% of my mates come from doncaster so thats where i generally go out drinking but i do feel much safer drinking there. you cant go anywhere within the town centre without being seen on CCTV, all the pubs are in the same place which means everyone out drinking is in the same place & the police have a much smaller area to patrol & there for its easier for them to see people fighting. but to be honest, i've being going out drinking there every other weekend for 3 & half years & have only ever seen 2 fights, one involving a friend. because there is CCTV there people tend to think twice anyway.

i've said this many a time too, i do smoke, & i also smoke weed, i aint going to deny the facts, i smoke more than i drink, i'm not a big drinker, i dont go out to drink to get plastered, i drink to have a good time but i've never been able to stomach it. i prefer to smoke to get stoned, i smoke all the time with my friends. i smoke weed to relax, if you were able to smoke weed while in the pubs, bars, & clubs in town it would help reduce violence caused by alcohol as you just cant be bothered to fight & weed mixed with alcohol just makes you whitie anyway so 50% of people would be home by 12am.

It appears the girl responsible for this hideous crime is communicating with Ian Huntley...

article here (http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005240680,00.html )

I completely disagree with every comment posted on here regarding smoking weed. They may be your own personal experiences but they are not reflective of the effects the drug has on everybody. Perhaps you are more responsible in your use of it, but I lived with some 'potheads' a few years ago who over the course of a few months became totally self-obsessed and very aggressive towards the non-smokers in the house.

Yes, some countries have legalised it but these countries have a completely different mind set and way of life. If they don't have the same problem as we do with alcohol fuelled violence and yobbish behaviour, we cannot use them as a precedent. As for 'would they have legalised it if it wasn't safe?' it was legalised in the Netherlands 30 years ago, before any of the more recent studies of the link between cannabis use and mental illness.

people i know who carry weapons all say the same thing,its for my own protection,but when tempers flare i would imagine that defence turns to attack,thats when the stabbing starts

i dont think people take knives out with them with the full intention of stabbing some one unless they have planned to do it to a certain person,so which ever way, they have the intention of harming some one in particular be it with a knife,gun,hammer,bottle or any thing they pick up.

but carrying a knife is a criminal offence in its self unless you can prove it is to be used in work or for a specific legal purpose,
i carry a knife when im climbing,camping or fishing,its not on my person but in my bag,the police have told methat this is lawfull

It is unfair to put the blame for the break down of law and order on our streets on the police.The blame should be mainly on the court system.What do you expect,when some toe rag is found guilty of an offence and either given a discharge or a community service order ie. slap on the wrist,and walk away sticking their fingers up at society.What ever happened to "hard labour"sentences, or would this upset the do gooders.At least in this case the scumbag didnt fool the jury and got what she deserved.

Originally posted by Twiglet
As for 'would they have legalised it if it wasn't safe?' it was legalised in the Netherlands 30 years ago, before any of the more recent studies of the link between cannabis use and mental illness.

Erm, cannabis isn't legal in the Netherlands :rolleyes:

Possession of small amounts is decriminalised - there's a difference.

Originally posted by fnkysknky
Erm, cannabis isn't legal in the Netherlands :rolleyes:

Possession of small amounts is decriminalised - there's a difference.

Fair enough - so where 'the sale and possession of small amounts for personal use is tolerated'

My point still stands though.

How about the Aussi girl that just got 20 years for bringing pot into Balli ? It was on CNN yesterday, big story, sorry don't know how to cut and paste, but the story's getting more and more interesting each day.

Maybe Mods will start a new thread so we can follow this story.

Originally posted by poppins
How about the Aussi girl that just got 20 years for bringing pot into Balli ? It was on CNN yesterday, big story, sorry don't know how to cut and paste, but the story's getting more and more interesting each day.


Yes, I heard about that. A bit silly if you ask me. When you go to south east asia there are huge signs at the airports and on your tickets saying 'drug traffickers will be punished by DEATH'. Drug smuggling is a stupid, stupid thing to do!

Being drunk/stoned has never made me want to stab someone. It just makes me tired and giggly! Imagine the next day though :( You would feel horrible.

Ok, I don't want to sound insensitive here, don't get me wrong but......

Everyone needs to calm down about feeling unsafe.
At this rate we will end up like America.
I have lived in Sheffield all of my life (admittedly only 15 years) but still I always feel safe here, the only real crime I have been involved in is when someone tried to mug me a few years ago.
People shouldn't get paranoid because, don't get me wrong I know what a terrible tragedy it is when somebody dies, being the 4th or 5th biggest city in the country I would say we are quite safe.

I say that we are fine as a city and the police are fine as police. Its a terrible shame about someone being stabbed but this poll isn't about sentiment its about statictics, are the police doing a good job? I say yes.

And what about the sentence the girl murderer received? The judge sentenced her to life imprisonment, then ruled that she must serve at least 14 years before being considered for release. The judge added that her release depended on her behaviour while in custody.

Now, whether this particular sentence is just, severe or lenient, is not my argument. My argument is that if the 'life sentence' as a form of punishment is to deter, then it must be exactly that: imprisonment for the duration of the offender's lifetime - as in the recent case of the former dustman who murdered the two sisters and a retired couple.

Over forty years ago, life imprisonment replaced capital punishment as the maximum sentence imposable by law. From the start, advocators of capital punishment argued that life imprisonment would not have the same deterrent power - that in people's imagination, the horrors of death by hanging were more likely to deter than the prospect, however bleak, of spending the rest of one's life in priison. They might have had a point. After all, scientifically, even life in prison is biological life. And while there is life, evidently, there is hope. Criminologists have reported that almost all 'lifers' are convinced that they will be ultimately released from prison.

Abolitionists took a different stance. They maintained that to remove a person's basic rights and to confine them in, what is in practise, spartan prison conditions until death was the greater punishment. They, too, had a point. Contrary to popular myth, Britain's prisons are not Butlin's. They are institutions of confinement, often violent, always cramped and overcrowded, and the food is atrocious and meagre. The lengths that criminals go to avoid capture seems to substantiate this. Forty years ago they would have been much worse. However, sentencing has changed over the last four decades. 'Life imprisonment' now does not mean imprisonment for life. Indeed, in practise, it can mean imprisonment for five years.

To conclude my argument that if 'life imprisonment' is to be a serious deterrent for serious crimes then it must be exactly that: imprisonment for life with no hope of release. To sentence an offender to 'life imprisonment' and to then add that they will serve 'x' number of years weakens the penal system in the estimation of the offender, angers the victim and/ or relatives of the victim, and frustrates normal society in general.

Originally posted by kathythebean
Yes, I heard about that. A bit silly if you ask me. When you go to south east asia there are huge signs at the airports and on your tickets saying 'drug traffickers will be punished by DEATH'. Drug smuggling is a stupid, stupid thing to do!

Being drunk/stoned has never made me want to stab someone. It just makes me tired and giggly! Imagine the next day though :( You would feel horrible.

She has claimed the baggage handlers put it in her luggage ?
Now the Aussi government want the money back they donated to the tsunnami fund, the aussi lawyers are going over there, seems like there's someone else involved too, bit more to it i think.

I think the issue with the post by spartacus is that to simply keep someone in prison for their lifetime is completely pointless. It would be much better for everyone to simply use capital punishment.

I do agree with the points that "life" is a poor term to use for x number of years, and it does always seem a strange way to phrase it.

The point of prisons is to both punish, and also rehabilitiate people. If someone commits a crime, no matter how bad, the point of detaining them for a set period is to make them see the error of their ways, and become a better person, who is capable of being released back into society.

Now, although the idea of locking someone up for the entirety of their natural life might seem like a just and fair punishment, and deterant, for certain crimes, it serves no purpose whatsoever for those who are actually imprisoned. It would just cost a lot of tax payers money, and would cause huge problems for prison staff.

If someone is in prison, and knows they will never get out, then why not riot? Why not kill other inmates? Guards? Visitors? What will they do? Lock you up longer?

I don't think "life" ever actually meant for someones entire life. It's hardly balanced when you could be sentencing an 18 year old to 68 years and a 50 year old to only 30.

There is also good evidence to suggest that the sentence, be it life or capital punishment does not act as a deterant at all.
People either commit these crimes in 'hot blood' with no thought to the consequences, or they plan them and are convinced that they will not be caught. Either way, the potential punishment is not weighed into the decision.

Originally posted by spartacus
And what about the sentence the girl murderer received? The judge sentenced her to life imprisonment, then ruled that she must serve at least 14 years before being considered for release. The judge added that her release depended on her behaviour while in custody.

Now, whether this particular sentence is just, severe or lenient, is not my argument. My argument is that if the 'life sentence' as a form of punishment is to deter, then it must be exactly that: imprisonment for the duration of the offender's lifetime - as in the recent case of the former dustman who murdered the two sisters and a retired couple.

Over forty years ago, life imprisonment replaced capital punishment as the maximum sentence imposable by law. From the start, advocators of capital punishment argued that life imprisonment would not have the same deterrent power - that in people's imagination, the horrors of death by hanging were more likely to deter than the prospect, however bleak, of spending the rest of one's life in priison. They might have had a point. After all, scientifically, even life in prison is biological life. And while there is life, evidently, there is hope. Criminologists have reported that almost all 'lifers' are convinced that they will be ultimately released from prison.

Abolitionists took a different stance. They maintained that to remove a person's basic rights and to confine them in, what is in practise, spartan prison conditions until death was the greater punishment. They, too, had a point. Contrary to popular myth, Britain's prisons are not Butlin's. They are institutions of confinement, often violent, always cramped and overcrowded, and the food is atrocious and meagre. The lengths that criminals go to avoid capture seems to substantiate this. Forty years ago they would have been much worse. However, sentencing has changed over the last four decades. 'Life imprisonment' now does not mean imprisonment for life. Indeed, in practise, it can mean imprisonment for five years.

To conclude my argument that if 'life imprisonment' is to be a serious deterrent for serious crimes then it must be exactly that: imprisonment for life with no hope of release. To sentence an offender to 'life imprisonment' and to then add that they will serve 'x' number of years weakens the penal system in the estimation of the offender, angers the victim and/ or relatives of the victim, and frustrates normal society in general.

Where is this evidence?

The NCPA (http://www.ncpa.org/bg/bg148/bg148a.html) looks at this issue, and says:

"...a 50 percent increase in the probability of incarceration prevents about twice as much violent crime as a 50 percent increase in the average term of incarceration."

It is the certainty of being caught which affects criminals more than the length of sentence.

Originally posted by spartacus
Where is this evidence?

google the abolition of the death penalty in the uk and do some reading around it.

Okay. When I wrote my post, I deliberately made no mention of whether I would vote for a return to capital punishment. I did this to concentrate on my point: that the term 'life imprisonment' should only be used by the law and the media if the offender is sentenced to spend the rest of their lives in prison, as in the recent case of the former dustman who murdered four people. I argued that to use that particular term to describe a sentence of less than a lifetime leads to confusion.

Incidentally, as for capital punishment, I have many times thought long and hard on this subject, yet to my frustration I'm still undecided. On the one hand, even with today's technology, wrongful imprisonments still happen (the cot-death mothers, for example), and on the other hand, violent attacks increase (be they for gain or 'kicks'). Also, some of you are quite correct when you write that hanging and/or a lifetime in prison will not deter violent crimes of passion, etc. The NCPA evidence was interesting. It supports the case for increased police presence on the streets rather than the present system where a crime has to be committed before they turn out.

Well, the guilty party in this case has (probably) killed herself.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/4171238.stm

Condolences to her family.

Another case where someone has taken their own life whilst in custody is here.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/4172078.stm

I wonder if people who are banged up are free to ring organisations such as the Samaritans, as this might help them to feel less like harming themselves.

Owdlad,

Remanded prisoners have the facility to use the listener scheme, which is fellow prisoners who are trained by the samaritans to listen to their peers who need to talk. It has been very successful since it's inception and is considered a key scheme in reducing self harming, bullying and suicide while in custody.

Originally posted by Swan_Vesta
Owdlad,

Remanded prisoners have the facility to use the listener scheme, which is fellow prisoners who are trained by the samaritans to listen to their peers who need to talk. It has been very successful since it's inception and is considered a key scheme in reducing self harming, bullying and suicide while in custody.

Thanks for that Swan_ Vesta, I wonder though if the prisoners can also contact Samaritans via a phone, as others who are on the outside do when they are feeling suicidal.

Originally posted by MrJingles
Sheffield has and always will be 10 years behind manchester and 5 years behind leeds, there where guns being pulled and used in the hacienda in the early 90's and shootings and stabbings at bars in Chapletown shortly after so it's just catching up.


GOOD!!!! we don't want to catch up!!

Although there have been many shootings in Sheffield, ie the one at Flying Pizza about ten years ago, and then more recently the chap at crookes/wakley. I think this post is typical attitude of Leeds/Manchester who like to think that gun culture is somthing to brag about.

It's not funny that we have idiots carrying weapons of any description round the streets let alone making it somthing to look forward to.:loopy:

Theoretically they could but as all calls are monitored from establishment and phones are on the landings there's not the degree of confidentiality afforded to us on the out. The listener scheme is just a part of a support network offered to inmates, Listeners are available 24 hrs a day.

Continual risk assesment plays a key part in identifying inmates who are likely to need assistance and there is now a greater infrastructure for the mental and physical well being for those in custody than in previous years past.

She has hung herself! YES :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
She did the right thing the evil bitch!:hihi: :hihi:

Well, good news people. the murderer has hung herself this morning.

Lets all clap :clap:

Justice has really been done now.

If you take a life, your life should be taken. Thats what i think.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

So thats true then? Thought i heard something on radio this
morning!

Durham nick was it?

Yes it was Durham. It's so good to hear when Justice has really been done.

Well yeah suppose mate!

Ya reckon she really had a mental problem or wat?

Probably, probably a smack-rat or something.

Wouldnt suprise me! Thats Sheffield for ya!

I hardly think that suicide, no matter the reason behind it, is something to clap about...nor does your celebrating seem appropriate despite the tragedy that has happened. I really do not feel that referring to and mocking 'smack-rats' (as you call them) or people with 'mental problems' (as many people have) is the right and proper thing to do. You appear to have lost all sensitivity to this issue and have made judgements on a case about which you will probably find you know very little.

Good riddance to bad rubbish :clap:

havent heard about this? when did it happen?...i mean the original murder... i assume there were LOTS of witnesses.

i personally think she took a easier way out..if she is guilty without doubt then restrain her and dont let her kill herself. let her suffer

Death is far too good for her. She should've rotted in jail for the rest of her life, not taken the easy way out.

Ditto for others such as Shipman and the guy who was suspected of attcking Abigail Witchalls. They commited the crime but were not strong enough to take the punishment.

Originally posted by Babooshka
I hardly think that suicide, no matter the reason behind it, is something to clap about...nor does your celebrating seem appropriate despite the tragedy that has happened.

You'll find that nothing cheers people up more on here than the death of someone they think "deserved it".

She probably got 8 or 9 years prison sentence where in this time she can watch tv, go outside, meet other etc. After this time she will be free. To me that isn't justice at all, or anywhere near!

I feel so sorry for the girl who was murdered and for her family. They have now finally got Justice and this animal of a woman will never be on the streets again.

So I think as harsh as it sounds we should all give the girl a clap for comiting suicide.:clap:

Originally posted by MarkB
So I think as harsh as it sounds we should all give the girl a clap for comiting suicide.:clap:

Not harsh, just a bit sick.

Ok Death is'nt a laughing issue! and maybe people are being a little naive as to wat happened but is your opinion not just as bad

I think she took the easy way out too- shes dead, she isn't suffering for what she did. She was meant to serve at least 14 years by the way.

Originally posted by NicolaE
I think she took the easy way out too- shes dead, she isn't suffering for what she did. She was meant to serve at least 14 years by the way.

They don't suffer in prison. At least not like they should do. prison should be boot camp. make them graft liek in the army with heavy dicipline. That is what prison should be!

Example but on the mild side of what it should be like (Bad Lads Army which is on tv now). Prison should be like that but only 25 times harder.

Originally posted by Babooshka
You appear to have lost all sensitivity to this issue and have made judgements on a case about which you will probably find you know very little.

Helen Hay..a 23 yr old girl...was stabbed seven times with a kitchen knife.

Her murderer has just topped herself

My sympathies are with the victim and her family, I'm not sure why you regard people who are glad the murderer is now dead as being insensitive?

Far from it.......

Originally posted by MarkB
They don't suffer in prison. At least not like they should do. prison should be boot camp. make them graft liek in the army with heavy dicipline. That is what prison should be!

Example but on the mild side of what it should be like (Bad Lads Army which is on tv now). Prison should be like that but only 25 times harder.

The punishment of prison is being removed from your friends and family, and locked up, there is no need to add anything to that, being removed from life is enough.

I don't know the specifics of this story but the girl who died in prison probably has family who are totaly innocent and trying to greive, is it not a bit insensetive to make such a public celebration of another persons death, especially if the families are local and can possibly come across this pointless thread.

Originally posted by nick2
The punishment of prison is being removed from your friends and family, and locked up, there is no need to add anything to that, being removed from life is enough.

Just a do-gooder who doesn't think right. Sorry but prison should be tough. your not away from friends really becasue you will meet some inside. Your not really removed from life as such because you have all mod cons like tv, radio etc.

saves us taxpayers a fortune....

Originally posted by MarkB
Just a do-gooder who doesn't think right. Sorry but prison should be tough. your not away from friends really becasue you will meet some inside. Your not really removed from life as such because you have all mod cons like tv, radio etc.

Have you ever been to a prison like Armley ?

If I have the right story - a mate of mine worked with an ex of the murderer and told me about her before this happened. Apparently at one stage (can't remember exactly) she either attacked her care worker or held her hostage or something and begged them to take her into a secure mental facility, saying she would hurt someone otherwise and they didn't. This was about a week or so before she murdered someone.

Hearing about the tragic death of anyone..ANYONE does not cheer me up at all so please do not associate me with those who feel elation at the death of life. I value all life..so why is that a bad opinion to have? People often can not see the wood for the trees. There is always something that might make you think twice about your first reaction. I am not sorry that my first feelings towards any tragedy, any death, any suicide are not feelings of glee. It is not so much as how people feel but the way they demonstrate it. Remember...there are always other people related to the people involved. ALL of their feelings should be taken in to consideration. I just do not feel that the mardi gras going on here is necessary. Maybe you could put as much energy in to thinking how we can help to avoid such events in the future instead.

Never been in prison, Im not a bad person. I Know ofpeople who have so have been told what it is like.

Right, ok, would you like to be in prison? knowing that you could be in there for the next 14 years, unable to speak to anyone or see anyone very often, living with druggies and psycho's and not being able to do normal things like pop to the shop or go into town or go to the pub? I'td drive you mad. I'm not sympathising with the murderer at all, but you saying her hanging herself is real justice isn't right at all, the fact that shes hung herself shows that she was tormented and wasn't finding prison as nice and cosy as you seem to think it is. And why the hell is Nick2 a do-gooder? She's managed to escape her pusishment and I bet the family of the murdered girl have no idea how they should feel right now.

Originally posted by MarkB
Well, good news people. the murderer has hung herself this morning...

The reasons behind her conviction are (roughly):
…During Giles' trial at Sheffield Crown Court, it was revealed she had intervened in an argument between Miss Hay and another women, although it had nothing to do with her.

Giles then took a knife from her handbag and stabbed the woman seven times in the back and chest.

Passing sentence the judge told her she would serve a minimum of 14 years in prison before being considered for release.

The story is here, link to BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/4171238.stm

Originally posted by MarkB
Never been in prison, Im not a bad person. I Know ofpeople who have so have been told what it is like.

So you don't realy know what it's like do you ?

If I told you the taps in prison were made of gold and all the wardens were supermodels would you believe me ?

Originally posted by Babooshka
Hearing about the tragic death of anyone..ANYONE does not cheer me up at all so please do not associate me with those who feel elation at the death of life. I value all life..so why is that a bad opinion to have? People often can not see the wood for the trees. There is always something that might make you think twice about your first reaction. I am not sorry that my first feelings towards any tragedy, any death, any suicide are not feelings of glee. It is not so much as how people feel but the way they demonstrate it. Remember...there are always other people related to the people involved. ALL of their feelings should be taken in to consideration. I just do not feel that the mardi gras going on here is necessary. Maybe you could put as much energy in to thinking how we can help to avoid such events in the future instead.

Well said, Babooshka.

A bit more humanity on this thread would not go amiss.

Needless loss of life is always something to be regretted.

StarSparkle

Originally posted by nick2
So you don't realy know what it's like do you ?

If I told you the taps in prison were made of gold and all the wardens were supermodels would you believe me ?

No I wouldn't beleive you because I don't know you. I know people who are in, or have been in very well. I know what they say is true becaus eI know them.

You may not consider yourself a bad person, but by the sounds of it you certainly know plenty who are!

TBH i wouldnt believe anything anyone has told you about prison and all this talk about it being easy im sure isnt always true,

Ive never been nor plan on going to ,


As for the girl who stabbed the other im not really sure what to say,

Im not a bad person and i cannot help who i know sometimes I'm afraid!

Prison may not be that easy but it isn't that bad. Its certainly not punishment for the majority of people inside. Prison will only affect a few people who are actually in.

Isn;'t the important issue here that an innocent girl was killed by someone who obviously thought it OK to go around with a knife in her handbag and who should have probably been in secure accomodation in the first place?

'Care in the Community' is a scandle and shoud never have been adopted. I regard it as one of Mrs Thatcher's worst mistakes.

As for whether it is preferable that the murderess killed herself I prefer to leave that up to the victims family. It is a judgement that they are entitled to make but not us.

Originally posted by Angiej
TBH i wouldnt believe anything anyone has told you about prison .......

Ive never been nor plan on going to ,


:confused:

If you don't plan to visit a prison, how else do you expect to learn about what goes on inside?

I think she means as an inmate cgk..not as a day guest.

Unless you have been incarcerated yourself, markB, I do not think that you are qualified to speak of how prison standards are...or how it would affect you..mentally.

yea i did! Sorry lol doing to many things at once,

Originally posted by MarkB
Well, good news people. the murderer has hung herself this morning.

Lets all clap :clap:

Justice has really been done now.

If you take a life, your life should be taken. Thats what i think.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

And just how far does this extend? Fatal automobile accident - douse the offender in petrol and burn them?? Corporate manslaughter - execute the board of directors??? The police who mistakenly shot de Menezes - blow them up????

What you are advocating is not justice but revenge and does revenge make you morally any better than the original perpetrator?

Originally posted by evildrneil
And just how far does this extend? Fatal automobile accident - douse the offender in petrol and burn them?? Corporate manslaughter - execute the board of directors??? The police who mistakenly shot de Menezes - blow them up????

What you are advocating is not justice but revenge and does revenge make you morally any better than the original perpetrator?

An eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth, or whatever the saying is.

Seems right to me, but thats my opinion.

Originally posted by MarkB
Well, good news people. the murderer has hung herself this morning.

Lets all clap :clap:

Justice has really been done now.

If you take a life, your life should be taken. Thats what i think.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
totally agree mate.......thats saved us a few 100 grand:thumbsup:

Originally posted by evildrneil
And just how far does this extend? Fatal automobile accident - douse the offender in petrol and burn them?? Corporate manslaughter - execute the board of directors??? The police who mistakenly shot de Menezes - blow them up????

What you are advocating is not justice but revenge and does revenge make you morally any better than the original perpetrator?

I think MarkB is referring to the fact that she killed herself!!

I personally would not partake in a revenge attack as you describe it...

But I know damn sure if someone was responsible for the 'cold blooded' murder of a loved one I would be feel pretty unmoved if I discovered they had took their own life at a later date....:rolleyes:

Originally posted by evildrneil
The police who mistakenly shot de Menezes - blow them up????

No because I back the police 100%. They were doing their job, Menezes could have been a bomber and then many lives would have been saved. Lets not get on to this subject because I have another thread on this if you want to talk about it. Subject of that is "Do you back the shoot to kill policy".

Originally posted by MarkB
No because I back the police 100%. They were doing their job, Menezes could have been a bomber and then many lives would have been saved. Lets not get on to this subject because I have another thread on this if you want to talk about it. Subject of that is "Do you back the shoot to kill policy".

So you think that if you take a life you should die - they took a life apparently on no real evidence - do I see cracks emerging in your "argument"

Originally posted by spyro2000
An eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth, or whatever the saying is.

Seems right to me, but thats my opinion.

And the follow up to it is - "that way the whole world ends up blind and toothless" is that where you want us to go?

Im afraid you don't mate. Way I see that is that they could have saved many many lives.

You cannot compare the two cases. they are totally totally different circumstances.

Originally posted by evildrneil
And the follow up to it is - "that way the whole world ends up blind and toothless" is that where you want us to go?

You make a valid point, I retire to defeat :hihi:

:clap: :clap: :clap:

My parents live very near to the murdered girls parents and I used to knock around with her when we were younger. I must admit, you feel a bit cheated that the girl has committed suicide and is not paying for her crime in prison but then again the other half of you feels glad that she has killed herself, after all, she took another life.

Life for a life.

Never! Never! Never!
Always stick by your decisions and follow your thoughts.

It is a shame when we place more value on money than on life itself.

Originally posted by MarkB
Im afraid you don't mate. Way I see that is that they could have saved many many lives.

You cannot compare the two cases. they are totally totally different circumstances.

Ahhhhhh so circumstances make a difference - do you know the circumstances of this attack?

Was she maybe a paranoid schitzophrenic suffering from the decline of the mental health services (also known as "don't care in the community")?

If this is the case should she still die for being ill?

Originally posted by teddygirl
:clap: :clap: :clap:

My parents live very near to the murdered girls parents and I used to knock around with her when we were younger. I must admit, you feel a bit cheated that the girl has committed suicide and is not paying for her crime in prison but then again the other half of you feels glad that she has killed herself, after all, she took another life.

Life for a life.

I seem to recall she was from Woodseats...

I don't think suicide is a cowards way out in some ways....Imagine if she came out in 16 years time...young enough to still live a fulfilledlife under the noses of those still grieving for their lost daughter/sister etc

This way she has shown remorse, self pity and she will never be seen again by the friends and family of the young woman she killed !!

She also saves 'us' the British Taxpayer 16 years free lodge at the Hotel HMP Durham !!!

Originally posted by MarkB
No because I back the police 100%. They were doing their job, Menezes could have been a bomber and then many lives would have been saved. Lets not get on to this subject because I have another thread on this if you want to talk about it. Subject of that is "Do you back the shoot to kill policy".

Could have been a bomber? COULD have been a bomber. YOU COULD be a bomber. Does that mean I can shoot you..just in case?

Originally posted by evildrneil
Ahhhhhh so circumstances make a difference - do you know the circumstances of this attack?

Was she maybe a paranoid schitzophrenic suffering from the decline of the mental health services (also known as "don't care in the community")?

If this is the case should she still die for being ill?

But she went out armed with a knife....obviously intent on creating some carnage don't you think!!

If it were always 'Life for a Life' (you good Christian people) then there would not be anyone inhabiting the planet.

Originally posted by Babooshka
Could have been a bomber? COULD have been a bomber. YOU COULD be a bomber. Does that mean I can shoot you..just in case?
Again - there is a nother thread on this subject. please don't mix topics.

My reply was in response to what you posted.

Originally posted by Shiesh
But she went out armed with a knife....obviously intent on creating some carnage don't you think!!

According to government and police reports so are an increasing number of people - are they all obviously intent on creating carnage? If so the gutters should be running with blood...

The paranoid schitz does not just start once you are out and about in town...if this is, indeed, what this lady was suffering then it would have been evident when she was in the home putting the knife in her bag.

Yes she did have mental problems. And yes Helen Hay lived at woodseats.

Originally posted by Shiesh
But she went out armed with a knife....obviously intent on creating some carnage don't you think!!

this is what happened........two groups of lasses on a night out got into a disagreement in flares,when they got outside a fight broke out,one of the lasses phoned up the girl in question for "back up" (she was at home) she phoned a taxi and got a knife from her house,she then stabbed the other lass outside the pub on the corner further down the road.

If only things were that simple...ever heard of mitigating and aggravating factors?

What do you mean in the home putting the knife in her bag???

a few people have refered to the girl who killed herself as having "taken the easy way out". Do you people really think that killing yourself is easy????? From what a few people have said on this thread the "easy way out" sounds like prison, I would not call killing yourself easy. Prison is about losing your libery NOT your humanity....harsh prison conditions do very little to reduce recidivism, try lifting people out of poverty and educating them to a decent standard and watch the prison population fall.
What happened is tragic on all sides-my sympathies go to both families.

Originally posted by Shiesh
But she went out armed with a knife....obviously intent on creating some carnage don't you think!!

This Teddy.

Originally posted by poimaster
a few people have refered to the girl who killed herself as having "taken the easy way out". Do you people really think that killing yourself is easy????? From what a few people have said on this thread the "easy way out" sounds like prison, I would not call killing yourself easy. Prison is about losing your libery NOT your humanity....harsh prison conditions do very little to reduce recidivism, try lifting people out of poverty and educating them to a decent standard and watch the prison population fall.
What happened is tragic on all sides-my sympathies go to both families.

another do-gooder:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Why do people use the phrase 'do-gooder' as some sort of insult. I strive to do good in this world in some small way every day of my life.

Originally posted by kirky
another do-gooder:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Yes- Do-Gooders, they would do more damage with their way on dealing with things.
it's like they don't see reality, Its like there on a different planet- always seeing good is not always a good thing.

God help the country if we had one of these running it in this forum!

Originally posted by Babooshka
Why do people use the phrase 'do-gooder' as some sort of insult. I strive to do good in this world in some small way every day of my life.

doin good to others is fine,doin good to the scum and dregs of society it pointless and a waste of time.

Originally posted by Babooshka
Why do people use the phrase 'do-gooder' as some sort of insult. I strive to do good in this world in some small way every day of my life.

Because the Do-Gooders we describe don't live on this planet. They see everyone as a good person and see that people shouldn't be punished for crimes they commit. They don't see bad people.
They would rather back down and die or get hurt rather than fight to save themselves.

Originally posted by poimaster
a few people have refered to the girl who killed herself as having "taken the easy way out". Do you people really think that killing yourself is easy????? From what a few people have said on this thread the "easy way out" sounds like prison, I would not call killing yourself easy. Prison is about losing your libery NOT your humanity....harsh prison conditions do very little to reduce recidivism, try lifting people out of poverty and educating them to a decent standard and watch the prison population fall.
What happened is tragic on all sides-my sympathies go to both families.

Disagree totally. Very harsh prison conditions would make sure someone doesn't want to rerturn. Put them in a brick dark room with no contact with soup and water and i bet they dont want to return. I haven't been in prison but know others who have and apart from missing outside life nad family they haven't no real issues apart from the rules they live under (not suprising considering they broke the law in the first place!)

I also dont think that putting money into education and taking them out of povertuy would work for many (maybe a few yes).

I also dont agree with a life for a life as there are always exceptions (although i do agree with a death penalty) and agree that taking your life isn't easy. This girl was obvioulsy ill but she wont be missed by the majority

No..you could not be more wrong, markB..that is typical. When someone does not share your opinion eg on punishment does not mean that they see everyone as good and not requiring punishment at all. Because you are extreme in your view does not mean we are the opposite extreme. How on earth do you figure that people who do good...do damage? That does not make any sense! Sounds to me like you already have your prejudices, and that your opinion alone is the right one.

Originally posted by MarkB
Because the Do-Gooders we describe don't live on this planet. They see everyone as a good person and see that people shouldn't be punished for crimes they commit. They don't see bad people.
They would rather back down and die or get hurt rather than fight to save themselves.

its a well know fact the 100% of executed murderers/rapists/kiddy fiddlers never reoffened.......how many nonces have ben freed in recent times and gone on to carry on with their vile activitys???? quite a few i'd guess.

Originally posted by Babooshka
Why do people use the phrase 'do-gooder' as some sort of insult. I strive to do good in this world in some small way every day of my life.

A do-gooder is a good person who looks out for others Babooshka and you are respected for what you try to do.

But the term do-gooder (like the PC brigade) are more known to help the criminal than the victim in this day and age and hence the reason the term do-gooder now isn't a postive thing. (IMO)

100% of executed murderers don't go on to re-offend because
they are dead!! The former prisoners convicted of murder (again in countries where execution is legal) are only freed because they are innocent..therefore, not murderers!

2 examples of Do-Gooders doing harm

1. A Smackrat/mugger whatever comes up to you and want all your money. A do-gooder will give them it rather than fight to save it. From then on this mugger will they carry on doing it to other people because he thinks people will always back down. Will pick on the weaker ones again and again. One tried it with me 4 years ago - Big mistake!
Same theory with bullies. Stand up and they won't come back.

2. Making prison not prison and putting education or whatever in to them. people will not regret what they have done, will not think it is punishment and will commit crimes again and again! the country will get worse and worse and cst us lots of money!

Originally posted by kirky
doin good to others is fine,doin good to the scum and dregs of society it pointless and a waste of time.

Surely civilisation is defined not by how it treats the best in society but by how it treats the worst?

Originally posted by MarkB
1. A Smackrat/mugger whatever comes up to you and want all your money. A do-gooder will give them it rather than fight to save it.

Well I'd smack him, but I'm a do-gooder aparantly, perhaps I'm a "fairly-do-gooder" or a "do-gooder-under-certain-circumstances"

Originally posted by nick2
Well I'd smack him, but I'm a do-gooder aparantly, perhaps I'm a "fairly-do-gooder" or a "do-gooder-under-certain-circumstances"
do you see where I am coming from though with what i have said?
Is it not true?

The only time I (for example) let a mugger take my money was when there were two of them and they leapt on me from behind, dragged me on to the floor, smothered my face, sat on my ankles, went through my pockets and kicked me in to the road. If I had had the chance I would not have allowed that to happen. If they had asked for the money I would have said 'no'.

I fail to see, however, how this is relevant to sentiments regarding the celebration of someone's suicide.

Originally posted by MarkB
Because the Do-Gooders we describe don't live on this planet. They see everyone as a good person and see that people shouldn't be punished for crimes they commit. They don't see bad people.
They would rather back down and die or get hurt rather than fight to save themselves.

Afraid I have to disagree with you there, I consider myself a do gooder but I firmly believe that the guilty should be punished but also rehabilitated during their time in custody in an effort to help them reform.

That's why programs like ASRO, Calm and DA work and get results - people who get a conviction for violent behaviour, domestic abuse and drug related offending benefit from these courses and it aids their reform. It doesn't work with everyone but for those it helps can be the impetus for making massive changes.

To tar people with the same brush of "If you're a convicted offender then you're scum" tars the ones who have a chance to change and lead a decent life like the rest of us. Everyone does something stupid in life in some peoples cases it could be a uncharacteristic drunken brawl ending in a conviction for ABH - the fact remains if you show the willing to lead a decent life and abide by the rule of society after you've served your time then I see no reason why a second chance is unreasonable.

For the record, this do gooder is more than happy to defend what's his and has done on a number of occassions both physically and verbally. My opinions, as liberal as they may be, do not in any way get in the way of taking care of me and mine from anyone who infringes our way of life.

Because the subject has now turned on to Do-gooders.

Originally posted by kirky
its a well know fact the 100% of executed murderers/rapists/kiddy fiddlers never reoffened.......how many nonces have ben freed in recent times and gone on to carry on with their vile activitys???? quite a few i'd guess.

100% of executed publicans never reoffend, selling alcohol to minors....

sounds like a good idea to me.

Speeders, litterers, drunks, tax dodgers - execute them all and clean this city UP dammit.

I got a right old b0llocking for doing that yesterday and had my posts deleted right off the page (hee hee)

Originally posted by MarkB
do you see where I am coming from though with what i have said?
Is it not true?

Ermmm no - the 'do-gooders' will simply be interested in working to rehabilitate offenders rather than pointlessly locking them up for x years and then releasing them to do the same as they did before. Surely a more sensible approach?

This girl's suicide is an interesting turn of events to what has clearly been an interesting story - if the number of posts on this thread are to be believed anyway...

She clearly had a lot of mental problems that drove her to take the life of somebody else and then her own. You could argue that these should have been addressed by doctors long before they were allowed to get to that stage. But I don't suppose they would have been addressed in prison either, and possibly even made worse by the bad influence of other criminals, so it is very possible that she would have re-offended upon release.

It seems in poor taste that we have a thread on this Forum celebrating her dealth though. Yes, we as tax payers won't have to pay for her any more, and yes, she was a killer, but she has also now escaped the punishment that was doled out to her by the British justice system, as well as any chance to reform herself.

It strikes me that a lot of people who are posting on this thread would be the same people who, in years gone by, would have formed a baying crowd at public executions. I'm not about to stand and judge these people, but I don't think I would have been part of the crowd.

I think somebody hit the nail on the head when they said that only the families involved are really qualified to decided whether suicide was a fitting end for her murderer. Miss Hay's family may be relieved that this girl is no longer alive, but then again they may have wanted her to suffer her punishment.

It's hard to say whether her suicide is good news or bad news because there are so many issues to take into account, but it seems very crass to celebrate her death in such a way, on a public forum, with the use of clapping smilies (:clap: )...

Originally posted by MarkB
do you see where I am coming from though with what i have said?
Is it not true?

I see what you're saying but, in the unlikely event that you get arrested for a one-off brawl in a pub or road rage, or something, wouldn't you like to have a "do-gooder" trying to get you released early and re-habilitated or would you rather spend 10 years sat in the dark eating bread and water ?

A brief comment on the do-gooders debate that seems to be raging at the moment...

If we have do-gooders, then presumably they are being evaluated against their opposite - 'do-badders' or 'bad-doers'.

Given the choice I'd chose the do-gooder any day! :loopy:

it's just tragic all round this...

The girl had serious mental health problems. I can't relate to that and won't even try to. But it does make me wonder if there was any help for her before she killed Helen Hay?

Mental health appears to be a very neglected area in the NHS. But with more and more 'criminals' being diagnosed with mental health problems might be worth abit more research into this area and help to those who need it.

This must be just horrific for Helen Hay's family and friends.

I'm with JBee and Babooshka on this one.

I don't know enough about the case to comment. But surely if she was mentally ill, shouldn't she have been charged with man-slaughter.

Originally posted by Zenmaster
I'm with JBee and Babooshka on this one.

I don't know enough about the case to comment. But surely if she was mentally ill, shouldn't she have been charged with man-slaughter.

And put in a secure mental institution NOT a normal prison!!

She would've been properly vetted both mentally and physically before being admitted into the mainstream prison system etc etc

Cellebrating a death out of vengence? I was under the impression only Al-kaida did that with their twisted justifications, a bit like some on this thread.

Originally posted by Zenmaster
I'm with JBee and Babooshka on this one.

I don't know enough about the case to comment. But surely if she was mentally ill, shouldn't she have been charged with man-slaughter.

No. The sentence and treatment may differ but murder is murder in my book. I dont understand this 'i was ill so i didn't commit murder bull'

For all you 'do-gooders' out there who want to do even more damage to the world in which you live, I submit the following for your own personal reflection....

To all others...please do not comment on this. I wish to neither change the thread nor provoke related opinion.

www.lifelines.org

Any questions, please feel free to PM me.

Thank you.

Originally posted by youwhatref
No. The sentence and treatment may differ but murder is murder in my book. I dont understand this 'i was ill so i didn't commit murder bull'


But if the mind-set of an individual with serious mental health issues is treated so they do not commit murder in the first place then the treatment has to be worth it ???

I do not agree with the using 'I was ill' as an excuse but as a society we always want an explanation to why things happen If mental health is the reason and it could be treated - well why not?

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
100% of executed publicans never reoffend, selling alcohol to minors....

sounds like a good idea to me.

Speeders, litterers, drunks, tax dodgers - execute them all and clean this city UP dammit.

executings a bit harsh but defo a bit of birch wouldn't go a miss...i'd happily dish it out

Originally posted by youwhatref
No. The sentence and treatment may differ but murder is murder in my book. I dont understand this 'i was ill so i didn't commit murder bull'

It is not the case that the murder was not comitted but that the person did not understand what they were doing or the significance of what they were doing in much the same way as a child does not understand the difference between right and wrong. Sufferers from psychotic psychological illnesses are sometimes so disturbed that they do not relate to reality in the same way as "normal people".

[MOD NOTE]: Threads merged

Originally posted by samc
it's just tragic all round this...

The girl had serious mental health problems. I can't relate to that and won't even try to. But it does make me wonder if there was any help for her before she killed Helen Hay?

Mental health appears to be a very neglected area in the NHS. But with more and more 'criminals' being diagnosed with mental health problems might be worth abit more research into this area and help to those who need it.

This must be just horrific for Helen Hay's family and friends.

It sounds like both girls involved and their families have ALL been victims.

Everyone has lost here.

Mental health problems in this country are a huge problem, and there is simply not enough money, enough resources, enough mental health care workers to tackle the problem.

In an ideal world, the mentally ill girl should have been in a secure hospital, like she apparently requested, receiving the help she clearly needed. Then no-one would have died.

The whole sorry mess is a tragedy.

StarSparkle

This thread is sickening.

I doubt very much that many posting have got a clue about
a) the circumstances of the crime
b) the circumstances of Louise
c) The mental health system
d) mental health problems per say
e) The criminal justice system and what actually works in rehabilitating offenders

Yet feel qualified to celebrate that a mentally ILL woman has taken her own life.

We all want offenders to have more empathy with others. If they did, surely there would be less crimes committed? But yet, people on this forum would rather not consider anything about the murderess as a person and the circumstances of the event. Hell, why bother actually thinking about WHY people do what they do? Why bother have any empathy at all?

I, for one, would rather know a bit more about things before I started applauding the death of someone I know little about.

Originally posted by evildrneil
It is not the case that the murder was not comitted but that the person did not understand what they were doing or the significance of what they were doing in much the same way as a child does not understand the difference between right and wrong. Sufferers from psychotic psychological illnesses are sometimes so disturbed that they do not relate to reality in the same way as "normal people".

I appreciate your view on this evildrneil but I don't think this was relevant with this particular crime!!

She was deemed to be fully aware of her actions when taken into custody and therefore met the charge of murder and was found guilty and imprisoned in a mainstream prison!!

Every case is individual and so many of you are posting 'off topic' to the one being discussed ie., the mental health, sentence and suicide of Louise Giles!!

:)

Originally posted by chickmonk
T

I, for one, would rather know a bit more about things before I started applauding the death of someone I know little about.

i doubt the victims family feel the same way

Originally posted by Shiesh
I appreciate your view on this evildrneil but I don't think this was relevant with this particular crime!!

She was deemed to be fully aware of her actions when taken into custody and therefore met the charge of murder and was found guilty and imprisoned in a mainstream prison!!

Every case is individual and so many of you are posting 'off topic' to the one being discussed ie., the mental health, sentence and suicide of Louise Giles!!

:)

Just because someone is imprisoned in a mainstream prison does not mean that they do not have a mental health problem. Many many people in mainstream prisons have mental health problems.

Originally posted by kirky
executings a bit harsh but defo a bit of birch wouldn't go a miss...i'd happily dish it out

but Kirky, the whole point is that execution prevents 100% of reoffending in all cases. Stop recidivism by instituting the death penalty for every crime. Surely we would live in a crime free (and much smaller) scoiety?

Originally posted by kirky
i doubt the victims family feel the same way

..and I doubt you know this to be true!

Originally posted by kirky
i doubt the victims family feel the same way

I can't comment on how the victim's family feels and neither can anyone else.

However, I can comment on how difficult it is to access mental health services in Sheffield - very difficult - and how few resources are available to those who need them. It is not surprising to me that tragedies such as this happen before people are given the help they need.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
but Kirky, the whole point is that execution prevents 100% of reoffending in all cases. Stop recidivism by instituting the death penalty for every crime. Surely we would live in a crime free (and much smaller) scoiety?

ok you win.......i agree:)

Originally posted by Babooshka
..and I doubt you know this to be true!

common sense tells me there lives have been ruined..just a stab in the dark like:rolleyes:

Originally posted by chickmonk
Just because someone is imprisoned in a mainstream prison does not mean that they do not have a mental health problem. Many many people in mainstream prisons have mental health problems.

Maybe she became mentally ill after the event eh....how convenient ....:heyhey:

If all murderers played the I am mentally ill card we would have a public outcry...

So we have to rely on the opinions of experts in the field....those experts deemed her mentally fit to face trial and punishment for her actions....she may have cracked with the strain of prison life but that should not be sympathised with IMP!!

:)

...clearly not common sense then. Ever been in touch with similar situations? Unless you have then your assumption could be wrong. I have..and believe me for the vast majority..celebration is the furthest thing from their minds!

That was a tasteless, senseless remark Kirk.
Take it from me, Giles was fully aware of the act she committed. If she knew how to kill herself and the longlasting effect it would have, she was aware of the murderous act she committed on Carver St.

Originally posted by Delta
Take it from me, Giles was fully aware of the act she committed. If she knew how to kill herself and the longlasting effect it would have, she was aware of the murderous act she committed on Carver St.

You know this how?

Louise did not play the 'mentally ill card' after the event. She was known to be schizophrenic beforehand.

Originally posted by Delta
That was a tasteless, senseless remark Kirk.
.

ive just realised that and i honestly didn't mean it as a joke:|

Originally posted by Shiesh
Maybe she became mentally ill after the event eh....how convenient ....:heyhey:


All I know about this sad case is what I've read on here.

But from earlier postings it sounds like this girl was already mentally ill, was aware she might represent a danger to other people, and had asked for help with her condition.

Had she received the help she requested, she would still be alive, the other girl would still be alive, however many other lives (of family, friends) would not have been damaged.

Should we not be asking why she didn't receive the help she so clearly needed? And seemingly asked for?

I suspect the answer is lack of money. Mental health services are appalling underfunded - vulnerable people are simply not getting the care and help they need. Why? Perhaps because they're not seen as being economically worth the trouble? I don't know, but I suspect this is the real reason.

Here in Sheffield - Middlewood Hospital gets sold off for luxury flats - sod the poor unfortunates who need to be cared for in hospital until they can cope with the outside world again?

We have our values upside down in this world. Money counts for so much more than people - and that is WRONG.

StarSparkle

no matter what any of you say, non of you will change the way I feel. I am so so happy that this nutter has topped herself. So should a few other inside.

No matter what we say, non of us will agree with each other, we all have different views. Just a pitty for you lot I am right.:thumbsup:

Originally posted by chickmonk
Louise did not play the 'mentally ill card' after the event. She was known to be schizophrenic beforehand.

If she was then she would be in a special mental hospital, not a normal everyday prison! She would in in somewhere like Ramton or something!

Originally posted by chickmonk
Louise did not play the 'mentally ill card' after the event. She was known to be schizophrenic beforehand.

So if I got myself into an argument in town I'd call my schizophrenic friend for assistance...come on now...:hihi:

There are a lot of schizophrenics in the world that do not go around 'losing it' and killing people...

If she played the mentally ill card before the event it didn't help her at the trial did it????

I have sincere sympathy for genuine cases but IMO she knew her intentions that evening when she put a kitchen knife into her bag and went into town to 'sort out' an argument for her friend once and for all!!

:loopy:

Something to think about...
A young woman has obvious mental health problems. Attempts are made to get her sectioned but there are no beds available. Two days later she has a psychotic episode and tries to burn her house down when her family are inside. She is arrested and finally gets the help she needs. She stands trial and because she is now medicated is found guilty of the crime. She goes to a mainstream prison where she kills herself because she cracks under the stain of prison life.

Round of applause???

Originally posted by MarkB
If she was then she would be in a special mental hospital, not a normal everyday prison! She would in in somewhere like Ramton or something!

You really should find out more about the real world before you go talking out of your arse.

Where are all these special mental hospitals that all mentally-ill criminals should be in? THEY DON'T EXIST - because the government doesn't care enough to build them.

That would mean providing proper treatment for the people that need it - and the political will is just not there.

Your lack of humanity is very sad to see.

StarSparkle

Oh Mark, you should not be wishing for people to kill themselves. Can you not see the perversity in that? Please don't refer to schitzophrenic people as nutters either. It is a medical condition and should be named as such. I find someone of your age gleefully celebrating the death of another somewhat disturbing. It really is not the solution to the problems we face in society..and I hold little hope and place little faith in the future leaders of our country if this is the attitude they hold now.

Originally posted by MarkB
If she was then she would be in a special mental hospital, not a normal everyday prison! She would in in somewhere like Ramton or something!

Not if she was now taking medication.

me come to the real world love? i think all you Do-gooders should. Your all full of crap that would never work.
I am in the real world and in the real world criminals need sorting out. And sorting out by tougher punishment!

Full of **** the lot of you!

When i said nutter i didn't relate it to a scitsophrenic (sorry for spelling).
i called her a nutter but newver related to an illness! Get your facts right!!

Originally posted by StarSparkle
...But from earlier postings it sounds like this girl was already mentally ill, was aware she might represent a danger to other people, and had asked for help with her condition...
If you thought that you might represent a danger to people...

...would you choose to put a kitchen knife in your handbag before you went out on the town?

:confused:

Smacks of conscious reasoned premeditation to me...

...and it looks like the courts agreed.

:)

Originally posted by MarkB
me come to the real world love? i think all you Do-gooders should. Your all full of crap that would never work.
I am in the real world and in the real world criminals need sorting out. And sorting out by tougher punishment!

Full of **** the lot of you!

And you have read up on 'what works' have you? I doubt that very much...

'What Works'
Well it hasn't worked up to now has it whatever it is!So i doubt they are facts what ever they are!!

Criticising the opposition's opinion by unintelligable insult makes you case neither stronger nor respected.

Originally posted by foo_fighter
If you thought that you might represent a danger to people...

...would you choose to put a kitchen knife in your handbag before you went out on the town?

:confused:

Smacks of conscious reasoned premeditation to me...

...and it looks like the courts agreed.

:)

If you were a paranoid schizophrenic and having a psychotic episode then I don't think its against the realms of possibility that you might put a kitchen knife in your bag before leaving the house. 'Paranoid' being the operative word.

I don't know whether the Court believed it was 'premeditated' as I was not in Court that day.

Originally posted by MarkB
When i said nutter i didn't relate it to a scitsophrenic (sorry for spelling).
i called her a nutter but newver related to an illness! Get your facts right!!

So theres a whole batch of posts talking about her mental illnesses and you call her a nutter (and hope that more kill themselves) but it doesn't refer to her illness? Perhaps you should think a little about what you are posting before you engage the keyboard?

I hate when people twist stories and words like you lot are doing so i feel I have the right to criticise you.

'What Works' by James McGuire - put it through Google.

Originally posted by chickmonk
...I don't know whether the Court believed it was 'premeditated' as I was not in Court that day.
Which is why we have the media, so we can read up on things without having to actually be there...

...technology eh !

:rolleyes:

MarkB, my facts were right...you may not have been referring to a medical condition but I believe that you should have been, considering that it is deemed that she had one! Thus, calling her a nutter relates to that.

Originally posted by evildrneil
So theres a whole batch of posts talking about her mental illnesses and you call her a nutter (and hope that more kill themselves) but it doesn't refer to her illness? Perhaps you should think a little about what you are posting before you engage the keyboard?

there you go again - twisting.

When i say 'Nutter' I mean all of though people/criminals/nutters or whatever you want to call them who have murdered!
I think it is pretty obvious what I meant.

Originally posted by MarkB
'What Works'
Well it hasn't worked up to now has it whatever it is!So i doubt they are facts what ever they are!!

"whatever it is"

lol.

Mark, you are out of your depth mate, I'd swim for shore.

If you read the posts M then you will see that nobody is twisting anything..we are responding to EXACTLY what you write. We don't look for hidden meanings. We read what you write and comment thereon. Maybe try to express exactly what you mean seeing as though you do not appear to be doing so at present.

Never-

I will say this last thinkg then I am going ot make dinner.

If a close one to you with it either being your child/mother/partner etc was murdered by a person, when the closeone was just on a works night out. You would want the person killed wouldn't you?

Think of it that way - your son, daughter, wife, husband - GONE?????
I know you want the person killed so he/she would never ever be on the streets again!!!

Originally posted by foo_fighter
Which is why we have the media, so we can read up on things without having to actually be there...

...technology eh !

:rolleyes:

No need to be sarcastic!!

Murder does not necessarily imply 'premeditated' in so much that she took the knife with her to kill that particular person. She may have taken the knife to protect herself. I haven't seen in the media any details of such.

Oh and by the way, I don't necessarily trust the media spin on stories. I've sat in on enough court cases where what I read in the paper has been very different to what happened to know to be cynical...

Originally posted by MarkB
there you go again - twisting.

When i say 'Nutter' I mean all of though people/criminals/nutters or whatever you want to call them who have murdered!
I think it is pretty obvious what I meant.

Twisting??? Do I sense the odour of desperation and inability to hold a coherant argument?

You used the word "nutter" not people or criminal - given the context of the thread I think that you should be more carefull with your words and make your backpeddling less obvious before you accuse people of twisting...

Originally posted by MarkB
Never-

I will say this last thinkg then I am going ot make dinner.

If a close one to you with it either being your child/mother/partner etc was murdered by a person, when the closeone was just on a works night out. You would want the person killed wouldn't you?

Think of it that way - your son, daughter, wife, husband - GONE?????
I know you want the person killed so he/she would never ever be on the streets again!!!

No is the answer you would get from me here. I would want to see them behind bars for the longest times but I certainly would not wish someone to take their life on my account thank you very much!

Originally posted by MarkB
Never-

I will say this last thinkg then I am going ot make dinner.

If a close one to you with it either being your child/mother/partner etc was murdered by a person, when the closeone was just on a works night out. You would want the person killed wouldn't you?

Think of it that way - your son, daughter, wife, husband - GONE?????
I know you want the person killed so he/she would never ever be on the streets again!!!

Probably I would. Which is why we have courts and a justice system that is objective.

This thread IMO is really going around in circles...MarkB has a obvious strong opinion about Louise Giles' crime and suicide and is simply putting himself in the victims' families shoes...ie., if some person responsible for the death of his loved one went on to commit suicide he would feel satisfied. I don't see how that makes him sooo bad!!

I would feel exactly the same albeit...not as strongly worded but I would feel at peace with my grieving knowing I am never going to have to live through the day the person responsible is released and has a life to go back to!!!

Personally I think all people capable of murder/taking their life have a mental illness...people who need 'anger management help' and just 'snap' and kill....the serial killer who feeds his lust for power...right to the desperate soul who commits suicide!!

All IMO mentally ill to some degree....but all responsible for their own actions at the end of the day!!

Very sad I know but true!

Originally posted by Shiesh

Personally I think all people capable of murder/taking their life have a mental illness...people who need 'anger management help' and just 'snap' and kill....the serial killer who feeds his lust for power...right to the desperate soul who commits suicide!!

All IMO mentally ill to some degree....but all responsible for their own actions at the end of the day!!

Very sad I know but true!

A lack of morals and premedetated murder are not a mental illness. Although those that murder are responsible for their actions, there is a difference between that of sane and insane person. It is more complicated when a murder is committed by a paranoid schizophrenic.