http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/5297588.stm

What do these people hope to gain by these silly protests?
I think they have no idea what they are doing. They probably think that electricity is some kind of magic. I have actually met people who think that electricity is nothing to do with the power stations.
Some people also have the strange idea that the water vapour coming off the cooling towers is some kind of pollution.
To cut down power lines to outlying farms and hamlets is disgraceful and could leave people at great risk.
No matter what these pathetic idealists think we cannot live without electricity and all its benefits.
The only way to improve its quality of generation is by Engineers and Physicists working on the problem.
Tree hugging ageing hippies and earth mothers have no place in the process.
(BTW I am an aging hippy myself, but an Engineer, not a tree hugger)

I saw the TV News coverage of them setting up camp with tents and using a Saw to saw some wood etc.

How to they think they were made? :cool:

Completely laughable. :)

Id class it as terrorism.
Simple as that, and Id prosecute them the same way that terrorists are prosecuted.

Reminds me of when my brother and I were security guards at the site of the Birminigham Northern Relief Road (m6 toll). All the tree huggers turned up and climbed all the trees. Anyway one day the road building company got an injunction saying we could "remove" the protesters from the site. So me my brother and the other guards started to play a game called "Knock a tree hugger out the tree" all the staff who wanted to play put a quid in a bucket and threw stones at the crusties first person to knock someone out of the tree got the money ion the bucket.:hihi:

Twas a nice little earner. I even heard rumours that a couple of coppers had a go.:hihi:

Reminds me of when my brother and I were security guards at the site of the Birminigham Northern Relief Road (m6 toll). All the tree huggers turned up and climbed all the trees. Anyway one day the road building company got an injunction saying we could "remove" the protesters from the site. So me my brother and the other guards started to play a game called "Knock a tree hugger out the tree" all the staff who wanted to play put a quid in a bucket and threw stones at the crusties first person to knock someone out of the tree got the money ion the bucket.:hihi:

Twas a nice little earner. I even heard rumours that a couple of coppers had a go.:hihi:
Yeah great country we live in - full of officious *****:mad:

but i like hugging trees-makes me feel all warm inside.....

Remember that scene in the Dads Army Film where the steam roller went down the line of tents? :hihi:

Reminds me of when my brother and I were security guards at the site of the Birminigham Northern Relief Road (m6 toll). All the tree huggers turned up and climbed all the trees. Anyway one day the road building company got an injunction saying we could "remove" the protesters from the site. So me my brother and the other guards started to play a game called "Knock a tree hugger out the tree" all the staff who wanted to play put a quid in a bucket and threw stones at the crusties first person to knock someone out of the tree got the money ion the bucket.:hihi:

Twas a nice little earner. I even heard rumours that a couple of coppers had a go.:hihi:Great Maybe you could have got some stocks and threw rotten fruit at them :loopy: Maybe we should go back to the middle ages.:huh:

So me my brother and the other guards started to play a game called "Knock a tree hugger out the tree" all the staff who wanted to play put a quid in a bucket and threw stones at the crusties first person to knock someone out of the tree got the money ion the bucket

So what happened to the crusties when they fell out of the trees. I would imagine they were seriously injured (unless they were very small trees).

Throwing stones at people for fun and profit! I wish I was a 'security guard'. Sounds like 'fun'.

but i like hugging trees-makes me feel all warm inside.....Exactly Tree hugging is spiritual why class it with the friends of the earth, its not the same thing.:huh:

Tree hugging may make you feel good but will it cook your dinner and keep you warm on a winters evening.
Will it power your factories and offices.
Without it you would be sitting by candle light reading a hand pressed book at present, IF you were lucky.
You would get your water from a rainwater butt outside' the list goes on.
They talk about naming another public holiday, we should have one in rememberance of Faraday, Edison et al. Without these people the world we live in today would not exist.

Tree hugging may make you feel good but will it cook your dinner and keep you warm on a winters evening.
Will it power your factories and offices.
Without it you would be sitting by candle light reading a hand pressed book at present, IF you were lucky.
You would get your water from a rainwater butt outside' the list goes on.
They talk about naming another public holiday, we should have one in rememberance of Faraday, Edison et al. Without these people the world we live in today would not exist.Like I said as you put it "Tree hugging is Spiritual" The people your on about are friends of the earth they are totally different.:mad: And as I know gnomi she is on about the Spiritual side.

Like I said as you put it "Tree hugging is Spiritual" The people your on about are friends of the earth they are totally different.:mad: And as I know gnomi she is on about the Spiritual side.
I stand corrected :( :thumbsup:

So what happened to the crusties when they fell out of the trees. I would imagine they were seriously injured (unless they were very small trees).

Throwing stones at people for fun and profit! I wish I was a 'security guard'. Sounds like 'fun'.


Sorry I should explain this better I have come across as a bit of a git.

In the course of doing this to the best of my knowledge three protestors fell, each one of them promptly then climbed back again so were not badly injured.

The protestors were not adverse to throwing things at us (human excrement, branches, spitting on us etc) we probably shouldnt have retaliated the way we did but no-one complained (not even the bloody crusties).

Every day things I dont agree with are passed and allowed to happen. I accept this I do not attempt to, illegally< stop these things from happening. If i feel strongly enough to act I do so through the correct channels and accept the outcome.

Id class it as terrorism.
Simple as that, and Id prosecute them the same way that terrorists are prosecuted.

Dude you cannot do that! :) Like or hate protesters, making protesting an illegal act makes takes you down the path to facism.

Now if the protesters break laws, damage property etc, thats different.

Does anyone actually know why they're protesting against this particular plant? I don't, but I'm going to have a google now, and will not be suprised if I find that SF's finest rednecks are once more talkng out of their biggoted - and extremely tight - bottom apertures.

Dude you cannot do that! :) Like or hate protesters, making protesting an illegal act makes takes you down the path to facism.

Now if the protesters break laws, damage property etc, thats different.
Thats what i meant, They damaged property didnt they?
Thats akin to sabotage.

Dude you cannot do that! :) Like or hate protesters, making protesting an illegal act makes takes you down the path to facism.

Now if the protesters break laws, damage property etc, thats different.

it says a powerline was cut, but they dont know it was them


not that im against em by the way : big wink :

it says a powerline was cut, but they dont know it was them


not that im against em by the way : big wink :
Well id spank em anyway just for the heck of it.

I notice that these protesterd are saying that Drax is the major polluter. I also notice that these protesters are young. Perhaps if they were in their 60s or 70s they would be aware of what it was like to live in the big cities like Sheffield. Nearly every house had a coal fire,all steelworks had a chimney pouring out smoke. There were times in 50s when it was like midnight at noon because of the smoke and fog. And they think that Drax is a polluter. Wake up there is more pollution from landfill sites.

Does anyone actually know why they're protesting against this particular plant? I don't, but I'm going to have a google now, and will not be suprised if I find that SF's finest rednecks are once more talkng out of their biggoted - and extremely tight - bottom apertures once more.
You will probably find that is because they are burning Orimulsion.
This is oil washed out using the Orinoco Rivers waters from depleted oil wells.
From what little I can remember of it, it has ahigh sulphur content and may therefore cause deforestation in Scandanavia.
The same problem used to occur when we used coal from the Selby Field, before the closures.
The question is, do we continue our lifestyle and lose a few trees, or live in poverty and have plenty of trees?
I opt for the former choice.
By the time any lasting damage is done we will have developed new power sources using the abilities of the previously mentioned engineers and Physicists.
This planet is a living thing and will easily repair any damage humans do to it.
We are just a cycle of the evolution of the Earth, it is only our arrogance which makes think we own it.

I notice that these protesterd are saying that Drax is the major polluter. I also notice that these protesters are young. Perhaps if they were in their 60s or 70s they would be aware of what it was like to live in the big cities like Sheffield. Nearly every house had a coal fire,all steelworks had a chimney pouring out smoke. There were times in 50s when it was like midnight at noon because of the smoke and fog. And they think that Drax is a polluter. Wake up there is more pollution from landfill sites.
Yes people have forgotten what it was like.
They honey coloured sandstone buildings, such as the Town Hall were all coal black with ingrained muck.
If you played in the bushes or trees you came away covered in muck.
I remember when the Clean Air Act came in.
We gradually began to realise that the Privet bushes were green, and not a strange shade of grey.
When they grit blasted the Town hall and it stood in its full glory, I remember them saying that it had never been seen like that ever. because as they had been building it the stone was already getting dirty. So even when it was brand new, it was covered in muck which was not clean off until the 1960's

You will probably find that is because they are burning Orimulsion.
This is oil washed out using the Orinoco Rivers waters from depleted oil wells.
From what little I can remember of it, it has ahigh sulphur content and may therefore cause deforestation in Scandanavia.
The same problem used to occur when we used coal from the Selby Field, before the closures.
The question is, do we continue our lifestyle and lose a few trees, or live in poverty and have plenty of trees?
I opt for the former choice.
By the time any lasting damage is done we will have developed new power sources using the abilities of the previously mentioned engineers and Physicists.
This planet is a living thing and will easily repair any damage humans do to it.
We are just a cycle of the evolution of the Earth, it is only our arrogance which makes think we own it.

It's actually a bit more straightforeward than that. The plant emits 20 million tonnes of CO2 a year. That is the gas which is now held to be the main cause of global warming by almost all the top scientists and institutions studying climatology and related s topics.

The ideas you share with George Bush and a minority of others - usually connected with carbon emitting industries - that technology will start to produce clean energy before we bring catastrope on our heads is very optimistic.

Again, the experts involved seem to disagree, and they are dealing with facts and probabilities based on research, rather than the hypothises which backs up their prejuidices based on nothing at all except wishful-thinking.

Besides, if - as you point out - the solution to the problem is the developement of new technologies, then surely we should be putting money into them, instead of using it to prop-up a crumbling carbon-fuel station which produces 20 million tonnes of CO2 a year.

Which is precisely the point of the protest. The only thing I can agree with the camp's detractors is that it probably won't make any difference. Not in the face of wilful, universal ignorance.

...it has ahigh sulphur content and may therefore cause deforestation in Scandanavia...

Having seen some of the "coal" for burning power stations it is either dust or sludge! I'm sure British coal was good old lumps of coal.

Drax has a desulpherisation plant, don't tell the protestors or they will be conplaining about the vast quantities of limestone used to absorb the sulphur emisions!

The gypsum resulting from the desulpherisation process is then used to make plasterboard.

Grinder

It's actually a bit more straightforeward than that. The plant emits 20 million tonnes of CO2 a year. That is the gas which is now held to be the main cause of global warming by almost all the top scientists and institutions studying climatology and related s topics.

The ideas you share with George Bush and a minority of others - usually connected with carbon emitting industries - that technology will start to produce clean energy before we bring catastrope on our heads is very optimistic.

Again, the experts involved seem to disagree, and they are dealing with facts and probabilities based on research, rather than the hypothises which backs up their prejuidices based on nothing at all except wishful-thinking.

Besides, if - as you point out - the solution to the problem is the developement of new technologies, then surely we should be putting money into them, instead of using it to prop-up a crumbling carbon-fuel station which produces 20 million tonnes of CO2 a year.

Which is precisely the point of the protest. The only thing I can agree with the camp's detractors is that it probably won't make any difference. Not in the face of wilful, universal ignorance.
I agree with you, regarding the waste of money, but whilst ever the capitalist is making a short term buck he does not look toi the long term.
Hoever the Engineer in me is loathe to see a massive, powerful plant such as Drax wither and die.
We have lost too much industry in this country as it is.
We used to be the workshop of the world, and Sheffield reknowed for its steel and engineering internationally.
We now have no industry left at all to speak of, and the young people for the most part have no aim except to get out to where people still have some drive and ambition.

I agree with you, regarding the waste of money, but whilst ever the capitalist is making a short term buck he does not look toi the long term.
Hoever the Engineer in me is loathe to see a massive, powerful plant such as Drax wither and die.
We have lost too much industry in this country as it is.
We used to be the workshop of the world, and Sheffield reknowed for its steel and engineering internationally.
We now have no industry left at all to speak of, and the young people for the most part have no aim except to get out to where people still have some drive and ambition.

Those days are gone, and it is sad in some ways, but let's not forget that many coal and steel workers had gruelling jobs, which often led to an early grave from lung disease. We could never compete in heavy industry these days. Countries like China and India have an endless supply of workers
who will toil 12 hours a day for next to nothing and as well as good supply of raw materials.

Having seen some of the "coal" for burning power stations it is either dust or sludge! I'm sure British coal was good old lumps of coal.

Drax has a desulpherisation plant, don't tell the protestors or they will be conplaining about the vast quantities of limestone used to absorb the sulphur emisions!

The gypsum resulting from the desulpherisation process is then used to make plasterboard.

Grinder
Yes it will be something else for them to complain about. The amazing thing about these type of people is that they are exactly the kind who could not survive without modern conditions.
For the most part they are 'arty' types, nothing wrong with that at all, but not much use if you have to survive an English winter without power.
Using wooden ploughs and stone axes, would soon lose its appeal I am sure.
When they had looted the last Habitat shop and Health Food store they would have to start farming. As the nearest any of them has ever been to a farm is driving past in the chelsea tractor to take the little ones to boarding school, they would not have much idea.
Most of them, you can bet, are like the psuedo communists of the 60's. Just messing about until they take up a non executive directorship in daddys company.

If the protest is about the pollution from coal fired power stations what do they suggest as an alternative. They dont like nuclear, they dont like wind power because the windmills do'nt look nice, wave generation may upset the balance of the natural habbitat of fish and what about the pollution caused by the fires at their campsite which I believe they dance around to call on the sun God to provide all..

Tree hugging may make you feel good but will it cook your dinner and keep you warm on a winters evening.

It will if you then cut down the tree and burn it :)

What do these people hope to gain by these silly protests?
At a guess, I'd say reducing pollution from the power plant and raise awareness of the need to not use as much power.

They probably think that electricity is some kind of magic. I have actually met people who think that electricity is nothing to do with the power stations.

I should imagine they are definatly in the minority


To cut down power lines to outlying farms and hamlets is disgraceful and could leave people at great risk.

Agree entirely with you there, but don't assume that everyone attending the protest agrees with the actions of what may be a minority

No matter what these pathetic idealists think we cannot live without electricity and all its benefits.

Pathetic? Because they are trying to raise awareness of a serious problem?


The only way to improve its quality of generation is by Engineers and Physicists working on the problem.

But until a cleaner power source is in use and takes over the majarity of production, everyone can do their bit by some very simple changes at home (turning lights off, unplugging stuff at night etc.)


Tree hugging ageing hippies and earth mothers have no place in the process.

Without the tree huggers - would this tread exist? Would people be talking about problems or carrying on regardless cosy that their lives are ok right now?


(BTW I am an aging hippy myself, but an Engineer, not a tree hugger)

I wouldn't call myself a hippy or tree hugger but I am concerned about such things and try to do what I can.

If the protest is about the pollution from coal fired power stations what do they suggest as an alternative. They dont like nuclear, they dont like wind power because the windmills do'nt look nice, wave generation may upset the balance of the natural habbitat of fish and what about the pollution caused by the fires at their campsite which I believe they dance around to call on the sun God to provide all..


Your comments were accurate until the italics. That's the problem about googling your own imagination for information - it's seldom correct.

Pathetic? Because they are trying to raise awareness of a serious problem?


But until a cleaner power source is in use and takes over the majarity of production, everyone can do their bit by some very simple changes at home (turning lights off, unplugging stuff at night etc.)



Yes, I was wrong to use the word pathetic. No one with the courage of their convictions is pathetic. I suppose a better word would be 'misguided'

I completely agree about the need to conserve the earths resources by saving energy. Unnecessary waste in any form is a disgrace.
As an engineer I believe in maximum efficiency from everthing.

The thing I do not like about these kind of people, is that they are against technology purely for the sake of it.
They live in dream world where everthing was better in ancient times.

If you could find a person from the Stone Age, he would jump at the chance to live in the luxury we enjoy today. All of it brought through advancements in Technology through the ages.
Living in caves, and wattle and daub huts is not the life for any human, past or present.
It is just that in the past they had no alternative.

It's actually a bit more straightforeward than that. The plant emits 20 million tonnes of CO2 a year. That is the gas which is now held to be the main cause of global warming by almost all the top scientists and institutions studying climatology and related s topics.


We'd better get some more nuclear plants up and running sharpish then.

The thing I do not like about these kind of people, is that they are against technology purely for the sake of it.
They live in dream world where everthing was better in ancient times.

If you could find a person from the Stone Age, he would jump at the chance to live in the luxury we enjoy today. All of it brought through advancements in Technology through the ages.
I agree wholeheartedly that the technology advancements are a good thing...I love my electronic gadgets as much as the next man!

I am confident that not all the of the people at the protest are the 'lets go back to the dark age' types though.

Surely they must be in the minority? Rather like the people who thing anarchy is a sensible and workable approach to society! ;)

We'd better get some more nuclear plants up and running sharpish then.

I believe that's the plan.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/5297588.stm

What do these people hope to gain by these silly protests?
I think they have no idea what they are doing. They probably think that electricity is some kind of magic.
No matter what these pathetic idealists think we cannot live without electricity and all its benefits.

As the link you provided shows artisan, they are wanting to raise awareness about CO2 emissions. Pretty sensible really. I think you'd find that these 'pathetic idealists' are well aware of the importance of electricity but would like us to generate it more cleanly. Protest groups play a vital role in society.

Yes, I was wrong to use the word pathetic. No one with the courage of their convictions is pathetic. I suppose a better word would be 'misguided'

I completely agree about the need to conserve the earths resources by saving energy. Unnecessary waste in any form is a disgrace.


The thing I do not like about these kind of people, is that they are against technology purely for the sake of it.
They live in dream world where everthing was better in ancient times.

If you could find a person from the Stone Age, he would jump at the chance to live in the luxury we enjoy today. All of it brought through advancements in Technology through the ages.
Living in caves, and wattle and daub huts is not the life for any human, past or present.
artisan you really don't do much research do you? You have absolutely no idea at all that these people are against technology for the sake of it. You've quite simply invented that bit because it suits your preconceived notions to do so. It's not about living in wattle and daub and the ancient times. It's about building a sustainable future.

artisan you really don't do much research do you? You have absolutely no idea at all that these people are against technology for the sake of it. You've quite simply invented that bit because it suits your preconceived notions to do so. It's not about living in wattle and daub and the ancient times. It's about building a sustainable future.
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/08/349233.html

Read that tripe then.
These people have no idea how a steam operated plant works.
This business about "smoke" coming off the cooling towers. The vapour seen at cooling tower outlet is water vapour, released from the cooling river water as it falls through the tower. Thats all it is, river water, which has been used to condense the LP steam, being return to the river.
The reason not so much is showing today is due to the weather conditions, warm and damp.
On a very cold dry day much more can be seen for the same reason you can see your own breath on those days.
It is nothing to do with pollution.
They flatter themselves if they think that the biggest power station in England is going to close down because a few sandal wearing vegans are standing outside.

You really don't do your research, do you? If you'd properly read the link you've posted, you would see that the 'smoke' comments are a quote from a local resident, and it is pointed out at the end of the piece that it is not smoke.

If only the people against the protests could come up with better argument than a constant stream of name-calling about a group of people they obviously know nothing about - then maybe we could have a proper debate on the topic you have raised.

The trouble is I am broadly in agreement with the 'protesters' points.
That is, if their points are:-
Greater investment in engineering research and development
More investment and research into dealing with products of combustion
Greater investment and research into alternative power sources to oil
Viable ways to increase the safety of Nuclear waste disposal.

The basic problem is that we are burning carbon at a terrific rate.
This carbon was fixed out of the atmosphere from the predominant CO2 over billions of years, by the early life forms. As part of their cycle they released oxygen which gave us our present oxygen/nitrogen atmosphere.
The fear is that we are in danger of returning the planet to the early atmosphere by the release of so much carbon, in the form of CO2.

However we are a long, long, way of from those conditions returning.
Global warming is not occuring due to Mans activities (though we have a part in it) but due to the natural cycle of the planet.
This planet is vast, It has untold capabilities to repair itself.

The damage we do will not be to the planet, but to our niche on it.
This situation is being worked on at present, internationally, the Kyoto Protocol being a small step forward.

As these protesters do not even seem to have website up, how are we to know their aims and ambitions?

Reminds me of when my brother and I were security guards at the site of the Birminigham Northern Relief Road (m6 toll). All the tree huggers turned up and climbed all the trees. Anyway one day the road building company got an injunction saying we could "remove" the protesters from the site. So me my brother and the other guards started to play a game called "Knock a tree hugger out the tree" all the staff who wanted to play put a quid in a bucket and threw stones at the crusties first person to knock someone out of the tree got the money ion the bucket.:hihi:

Twas a nice little earner. I even heard rumours that a couple of coppers had a go.:hihi:


Ha Ha. :loopy:

"Michelle Bernstein, 28, from York, said: "Many of us are prepared to break the law, because the powers-that-be are addicted to planet-trashing economic growth.
"Shutting down a power station isn't enough to stop climate change but it's a start." "

Well there you have it, no alternative plan , no proposals, just stupid violence wasting everyones time.

And I would have thought that by 28 years of age that her growing up process may have started.

Global warming is not occuring due to Mans activities (though we have a part in it) but due to the natural cycle of the planet.
This planet is vast, It has untold capabilities to repair itself.

But we have equal capacity to overload those capabilities, I for one would rather not test the limits!
As for warming not occurring because of our impact...there are a huge number of factors involved, not just man. I have formed the opinion that most of the people studying the phenomonan (sp?) have agreed we are speeding up the process hugely.


The damage we do will not be to the planet, but to our niche on it.

Does that mean you're not bothered if the human race goes extinct?
Maybe life will will survive after we disappear because we cook ourselves, maybe it wont.


This situation is being worked on at present, internationally, the Kyoto Protocol being a small step forward.

It is a small step forward, but probably too small. Particularly as some of the biggest polluters have not signed up (I'm looking at you Mr Bush :suspect: )


As these protesters do not even seem to have website up, how are we to know their aims and ambitions?
Watching the news...interviews with them?

http://www.draxpower.com/files/Environmental_Performance%20_2004.pdf

Drax figures - fuel used, power produced etc.


If this has appeared already, my apologies.

http://www.climatecamp.org.uk/

Here is their web site.

The main thrust by Indymedia seems to be,

A giant ostrich
Dont let the coppers find your drugs and knives
Nothing I have found yet regarding alternatives though.

Especially amusing is the bit about bicycles as if they cause no pollution.
Aluminium frames, ball bearings, plastic saddles,
Obviously all magicked out of thin air, no electricity used there then

The people who organise these things must make a good living at it.
They never seem to do anything else.

However we are a long, long, way of from those conditions returning.
Global warming is not occuring due to Mans activities (though we have a part in it) but due to the natural cycle of the planet.
This planet is vast, It has untold capabilities to repair itself.


As these protesters do not even seem to have website up, how are we to know their aims and ambitions?

I used to be of the opinion that man's activities only played a small part in global warming myself. But that is now at odds with most of the latest scientific data. I spent a few hours on the internet the other day looking into this subject, and believe me, the majority of mainstream climate scientists are now of the opinion that human activity is pushing the Earth's climate towards a tipping point which could leave large parts of the planet uninhabitable by humans and many other species.

The best case scenario now being offered by most researchers, is that we will suffer acute droughts, flooding and storms on the scale of hurricane Katrina on a frequent basis before this century is out. Although the Earth will find a new equilibrium, I don't think people whose children/grandchildren will have to face this era , will feel so philosophical about it.

Once circumstances force people to pull their heads out of the sand, we could well be faced with a situation which will make WW2, terrorism and any other recent historical events look like a party.

I invite anybody who believes these ideas to be doom and gloom scaremongering, to google a few accredited, government funded climate research bodies, from any country or university, and see what the majority of them say.

Why should we continue to listen to people who hold up no evidence for their claims that we aren't causing global warming and it's not that bad, whilst all the experts in the field are increasingly saying the opposite.

The people who organise these things must make a good living at it.
They never seem to do anything else.
That'll be the 'suggested donation' then.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4923504.stm

It seems it depends on who you listen to.
These scientists have admited to sensationalising their reports, in order to obtain continued funding.
If we are to obtain the true facts, then this money should be made available to them without them having to justify it.

Drax is for sale at a reasonable, £6.99.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Corgi-Icon-Figure-Drax-James-Bond_W0QQitemZ7026860366QQihZ014QQcategoryZ56321QQ cmdZViewItem

Why should we continue to listen to people who hold up no evidence for their claims that we aren't causing global warming and it's not that bad, whilst all the experts in the field are increasingly saying the opposite.

I think part of the problem is calling it global warming. Thats only a small part of the picture. The scarey thing is the storage of carbon dioxide, and it's release. Our seas and forests store the carbon, and in normal circumstances all is well. But many, many studies have shown they only store so much and under certain conditions, like drought for trees, it will be released on mass.

My other issue with coal powered plants is the Mercury they release. Mercury is linked to all sorts of nurelogical problems. Its the reason why Pregnant women are told not to eat certain kinds of fish like Tuna, and its almost impossible to clean up.

What I would like to know is are any of these protesters qualified to pass judgment on drax and have any of them got any realistic solutions to the problems? maybe if some of them qualified in politics and got into government on a main or local basis then they could change things and encourage new windfarms, h.e.p and other types of clean energy. Oh but that would mean they had to stop whining and actually do something other than camp and wear hemp.

Maybe they are qualified, maybe not but they are keeping the issue in the headlines, which can only be a good thing IMO

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4923504.stm

It seems it depends on who you listen to.
These scientists have admited to sensationalising their reports, in order to obtain continued funding.
If we are to obtain the true facts, then this money should be made available to them without them having to justify it.

here are some excerpts from your link.

''The vast majority of their results showed that doubling CO2 would lead to a temperature rise of about 3C. Such an increase would have a major impact on the planet. The scientists of Climateprediction.net say that is what you would expect their model to produce, and many other scientists have produced similar results. However a tiny percentage of the models showed very high levels of warming - the highest result was a startling 11C.

Attention grabbing

When it came to selling the story to journalists, the press release only mentioned one figure - 11C. ''

"If journalists decide to embroider on a press release without referring to the paper which the press release is about, then that's really the journalists' problem. We can't as scientists guard against that."

So what the story actually says is that scientists are broadly in agreement that there will be a temperature increase of about three degrees. They are also broadly in agreement that this would have a 'major impact.'

However, where some studies have come up with a higher figure, the press have sensationalised it. There is only one scientist who admits to exagerating in order to get funding. So again, why don't you read the links you post properly, instead of just looking for things to support your views in them.

What I would like to know is are any of these protesters qualified to pass judgment on drax and have any of them got any realistic solutions to the problems? maybe if some of them qualified in politics and got into government on a main or local basis then they could change things and encourage new windfarms, h.e.p and other types of clean energy. Oh but that would mean they had to stop whining and actually do something other than camp and wear hemp.

How do you qualify to be a politician? By enrolling on a course in back-stabbing and media manipulation at university?

How do you qualify to be a politician? By enrolling on a course in back-stabbing and media manipulation at university?
Yes. :o
There are countless politics degrees available.

By taking a politics degree, the back stabbing comes from within the individual and they are the individuals with the power to make changes or money depending on what suits their purpose best. All I'm saying is if you want to change things then work hard and do it, or at least give it your best shot.

Greenwich offer a course that covers propaganda and spin.

Political Communication, Propaganda and Spin
http://www.gre.ac.uk/courses/under/sch/hum/polit_ba.html

Global warming is not occuring due to Mans activities (though we have a part in it) but due to the natural cycle of the planet.


Sorry, you're just plain wrong:

"Recent Hadley Centre studies make us increasingly confident that human activity is a major cause of the climate change during the last 50 years."

This from OUR OWN Met Office Climate Change group
http://www.metoffice.com/research/hadleycentre/pubs/brochures/B2000/causes.html

I want "clean" electricity and I don't want to live in the stone age. We buy our electricity from Good Energy: 100% renewable for little extra price.

Cover all of the factory roofs with solar cells. This mass production will see costs spiral down. Off-shore wind farms and lots of micro-generation for individuals, boosted by government grants. Less electricity wastage and.....

we wouldn't need to burn coal OR build nuclear power plants.

[/I]


Your comments were accurate until the italics. That's the problem about googling your own imagination for information - it's seldom correct.


Read my post again there are no itlaics. So which part do'nt you agree with?

Cover all of the factory roofs with solar cells. This mass production will see costs spiral down. Off-shore wind farms and lots of micro-generation for individuals, boosted by government grants. Less electricity wastage and.....



These are all great ideas.

Also 10% of all energy is lost just delivering it to the home.

Read my post again there are no itlaics. So which part do'nt you agree with?

'' they dont like wind power because the windmills do'nt look nice, wave generation may upset the balance of the natural habbitat of fish and what about the pollution caused by the fires at their campsite which I believe they dance around to call on the sun God to provide all..''

The vast majority of environmentalists are in favour of wind power and wave power, so why do you say they don't like it. Probably for the same reason you say they worship the sun God.

Cover all of the factory roofs with solar cells. This mass production will see costs spiral down. Off-shore wind farms and lots of micro-generation for individuals, boosted by government grants. Less electricity wastage and.....

we wouldn't need to burn coal OR build nuclear power plants.

I totally and absolutely agree with you. We should be doing all we can to use renwable energy sources. Solar panels, wind turbines etc. Anyone lucky enough to live by a river should be allowed to build a water turbine etc.
The technology exists for all these things, so we should make use of it.

But how does all this excuse the pulse eaters harrassing the staff at Drax and hartlepool power stations.
I would imagine about 1% of them has put any thought into what they are doing.

'' they dont like wind power because the windmills do'nt look nice, wave generation may upset the balance of the natural habbitat of fish and what about the pollution caused by the fires at their campsite which I believe they dance around to call on the sun God to provide all..''

The vast majority of environmentalists are in favour of wind power and wave power, so why do you say they don't like it. Probably for the same reason you say they worship the sun God.

I have just seen them on the news dancing around and dressed as 1960s hippies. Sorry about the sun God mistake... must have been the rain God because it really did preciptate on them.

By the way Donkey they are not protesting at landfill sites or disused coalmines both of which contribute to an enormous amount of methane gas into the air. There are companies who generate electricity from the gas but not enough investment by the governments makes use of this. Yes governmentS not just one in power now but the one that forced the closure of the mines in the first place.

These people have caused a lot of trouble and had their five minutes of fame, but apart from making fools of themselves what have they achieved?

A cynic might say that it was organised by the fossil fuel companies.
It has set the protesters (and indeed anyone interested in alternative energy supplies) cause back by another ten years at least, as no one will take them seriously now for a long time.
Running about in the woods dressed as clowns is not the way to encourage rational debate.

Global warming, as a result of the burning of fossil fuels is indeed a serious issue, however, let's consider this in context. China's rapid economic growth is producing a surge in emissions of greenhouse gases that threatens international efforts to curb global warming, as Chinese power plants burn ever more coal while car sales soar.


Until recently, many energy experts and environmentalists said, they had hoped that China's contribution to global warming would be limited. Its state-owned enterprises have become more efficient in their energy use as they compete in an increasingly capitalist economy, and until recently official Chinese statistics had been showing a steep drop in coal production and consumption.

But new figures from Chinese government agencies confirm what energy industry executives had suspected: that coal use has actually been climbing faster in China than practically anywhere else in the world.

To the extent that global warming is caused by humanity, as many scientists believe, this is a serious problem because burning coal at a power plant releases more greenhouse gases than using oil or natural gas to generate the same amount of electricity.

China's rising energy consumption complicates diplomatic efforts to limit emissions of global warming gases. The International Energy Agency in Paris predicts that the increase in greenhouse gas emissions from 2000 to 2030 in China alone will nearly equal the increase from the entire industrialised world.

The protesters at Drax should perhaps concentrate their efforts a little more and focus on the real protagonists. Compared to China, the emissions produced in this country are a mere drop in the ocean. I would advise, however, that if any of the protesters fancy a trip, a one way ticket would suffice.

These people have caused a lot of trouble and had their five minutes of fame, but apart from making fools of themselves what have they achieved?

A cynic might say that it was organised by the fossil fuel companies.
It has set the protesters (and indeed anyone interested in alternative energy supplies) cause back by another ten years at least, as no one will take them seriously now for a long time.
Running about in the woods dressed as clowns is not the way to encourage rational debate.

It's a shame the major issue for a lot of people is the way they look. They haven't really caused that much trouble. I certainly haven't felt the impact round our way. As for rational debate, I don't think you can blame protesters 50 miles away for some of the lame prejuidices which have been presented as arguments on this thread. Why is it their job to convince us anyway. We'll all be effected by global warming. And if their aim was to raise the issues, it's certainly worked.

It's a shame the major issue for a lot of people is the way they look. They haven't really caused that much trouble. I certainly haven't felt the impact round our way. As for rational debate, I don't think you can blame protesters 50 miles away for some of the lame prejuidices which have been presented as arguments on this thread. Why is it their job to convince us anyway. We'll all be effected by global warming. And if their aim was to raise the issues, it's certainly worked.
When I say dressed as clowns I was not taking a rise. Look at the pictures on the BBC site. They are actually dressed as clowns. They are not taking this seriously, and if you read their site it is obviously a big jambouree.
If I had not brought this up you probably would not have had the first idea about it. So in what way have they raised any issues?
They have done nothing except embarrass people who have good solid arguments to put forward on this matter.
They are the modern equivalent to the toothless hags that used to sit at the roadside and cackle, (no not Greenham Common Wimin) in the Middle Ages at anything and everything.
The day any of these groups comes up with viable alternatives the rest of us may start listening to them.

Does anyone actually know why they're protesting against this particular plant? I don't, but I'm going to have a google now, and will not be suprised if I find that SF's finest rednecks are once more talkng out of their biggoted - and extremely tight - bottom apertures.

Independent claims it is the cleanest power plant in the country so seems an odd target to me. Surely they should be celebrating this one and protesting against the other more polluting ones?

Is this your secret girlfriend?

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42036000/jpg/_42036170_protester4pa416.jpg

Is this your secret girlfriend?

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42036000/jpg/_42036170_protester4pa416.jpg
Perhaps daughters, either of them :)

Independent claims it is the cleanest power plant in the country so seems an odd target to me. Surely they should be celebrating this one and protesting against the other more polluting ones?

It's one of the cleanest for it's size. However it's also the biggest and pumps over 20 million Tonnes of carbon dioxide in to the enviroment every year, more than every single car in the country, more than many countries pump in to the enviroment. So it's a fairly iconic place and as this was all for publicity and maybe starting discussion, it's not such a bad choice. And it does appear to have worked, they got lots of national and even some international press.

Being the cleanest coal power station in the country is like being the most sober crack addict in the UK. Still not so much of a great claim to fame.

This is bad news for the energy industry, for at least two reasons.

One, it makes anyone in favour of alternative energy look like a yobbish fool

Two, that it will give the opponents of clean energy a broad brush to paint anyone who complains about pollution in the future as a lentil eating moron.

As I said in the OP, this argument should be left to engineers, not hippies and earth mothers.
All they do is debase the argument until it is walked over.

This is bad news for the energy industry, for at least two reasons.

One, it makes anyone in favour of alternative energy look like a yobbish fool

Two, that it will give the opponents of clean energy a broad brush to paint anyone who complains about pollution in the future as a lentil eating moron.

As I said in the OP, this argument should be left to engineers, not hippies and earth mothers.
All they do is debase the argument until it is walked over.

One and two could be combined.

As I said in the OP, this argument should be left to engineers, not hippies and earth mothers.
All they do is debase the argument until it is walked over.

Yeah that really hasn't been working. It's not a strictly engeneering problem.

Sadly companies who run these power stations will get away with as much as they can, to save money. Some of the companies are private floated businesses, so they have stock holders to keep happy.

As you know artisan we have technologies now that would make these power plants far cleaner, or get rid of them all together. We have had them since the 70's. You know 3 decades.

It's societies problem.

One and two could be combined.

No they couldnt.
Point one, indicates the damage they have done to the cause of clean energy.

Point two, indicates how their foolish behaviour will be used against us by opponents of clean energy. I bet The Sun will have a field day tomorrow

These people should stay at home contemplating their navels.

You can be a yobbish fool and eat lentils though.

You can be a yobbish fool and eat lentils though.

Yeah or a yobbish, navel contemplating lentil eating, hippie, pulse eating, earth mother, clown.

You a yobbish, navel contemplating lentil eating, hippie, clown.
I have been all those things in my time, which makes me the gentle rounded person I am today. (but the roundedness is more due to beer than contemplation) :D

I have been all those things in my time, which makes me the gentle rounded person I am today. (but the roundedness is more due to beer than contemplation) :D

:)

But it worked in the 60's, 70's and 80's for the most part artisan.. protest that is. You know people in the 60's really showed the World what protest could achieve. And believe me I know there are good and bad protests, but in general I think they are positive.

I probably agree with you though, that people should be careful because more harm can be done than good. Especially when violence or damage is concerned.

:)

But it worked in the 60's, 70's and 80's for the most part artisan.. protest that is. You know people in the 60's really showed the World what protest could achieve. And believe me I know there are good and bad protests, but in general I think they are positive.

I probably agree with you though, that people should be careful because more harm can be done than good. Especially when violence or damage is concerned.
When we were protesting in Grosvenor Square et al. we were campaining against our American and Vietnamese brothers being murdered in the name of capitalism.
In the factories we were going for better conditions and money.
We were going for improvement.
This lot, (and not only these if you have read any other of my posts on other threads) are trying to turn the clock back, not only on our achievements, but the achievements of our fathers and grandfathers.
We cannot keep going backwards. You only retreat in order to regroup and push forwards.

When we were protesting in Grosvenor Square et al. we were campaining against our American and Vietnamese brothers being murdered in the name of capitalism.
In the factories we were going for better conditions and money.
We were going for improvement.
This lot, (and not only these if you have read any other of my posts on other threads) are trying to turn the clock back, not only on our achievements, but the achievements of our fathers and grandfathers.
We cannot keep going backwards. You only retreat in order to regroup and push forwards.

I don't know you lentil eating protesters! :) Good man for all that you did for those great causes :thumbsup:

Getting rid of coal power plants is hardly pushing the clock back. It's moving things forward :) You even said that wind, solar, water etc are all great and a step forward. It is an improvement to our one and only planet :) Coal and even oil power really is very old and very basic technology. In fact centralized generation is very old and particularly inefficient technology. And that’s without going in to the modern methods we have to make the existing plants cleaner.

Protesters claim it is obsolete and should be closed down and replaced with cleaner forms of power.

They just want it replaced with cleaner forms of energy. What’s wrong with that? We just need the political push, because companies generally will not change something that will hit it's bottom line until pushed.

I haven’t read about anybody thinking we should close down our biggest power plant before we have the replacement power to keep our fridges and lights on.

Artisan,
Did you also take part in the massive Poll Tax rally in London - AKA the Battle of Trafalgar, that turned into a huge riot?

Artisan,
Did you also take part in the massive Poll Tax rally in London - AKA the Battle of Trafalgar, that turned into a huge riot?
No, I left that to younger men, but was there in spirit.
The next great turn out of true patriots will be on the day of Thatchers death. The drink will flow on that great day, but she keeps hanging on.
Stalin and Breznev were the same, the evil ones keep going, even the devil doesnt want them :mad:

No, I left that to younger men, but was there in spirit.
The next great turn out of true patriots will be on the day of Thatchers death. The drink will flow on that great day, but she keeps hanging on.
Stalin and Breznev were the same, the evil ones keep going, even the devil doesnt want them :mad:

I went - it was quite a day.

I went - it was quite a day.
Dont get me going on about the injustices of the 80's and 90's we will be here all night, and the thread closed down for insulting the Lady. :D

No, I left that to younger men, but was there in spirit.
The next great turn out of true patriots will be on the day of Thatchers death. The drink will flow on that great day, but she keeps hanging on.
Stalin and Breznev were the same, the evil ones keep going, even the devil doesnt want them :mad:

State funeral for her I am told. Wonder if the miners will be heading down for that? Especially now they are talking about mining for coal again in England.

State funeral for her I am told. Wonder if the miners will be heading down for that? Especially now they are talking about mining for coal again in England.


It' a crazy f***ed up world....

Seriously.

But it kind of proves artisans point. Remember how the the people protesting the closures were painted as bad people, and bad for the country? Living in the past etc? No it turns out that the policies were short sighted, now we have $70 a barrel oil, coal looks like a great money making option. If we still had those mines they would be making large amounts of money now.

No they couldnt.
Point one, indicates the damage they have done to the cause of clean energy.

Point two, indicates how their foolish behaviour will be used against us by opponents of clean energy. I bet The Sun will have a field day tomorrow

These people should stay at home contemplating their navels.

It is funny the way that, during the course of this thread, you have gone from denying that global warming is a man made or serious problem, to claiming you are an advocator of clean energy who's cause will be harmed by the Drax protestors. Make your mind up mate.

Artisan,
Did you also take part in the massive Poll Tax rally in London - AKA the Battle of Trafalgar, that turned into a huge riot?

I was there. Of course I remained law abiding throughout :cool: That day might have put the final nail in Thatcher's coffin, but I didn't like the way some of them were dressed. :hihi: I think they should have all worn suits to show they were sensible, and not detract from the serious points involved :gag:

Seriously.

But it kind of proves artisans point. Remember how the the people protesting the closures were painted as bad people, and bad for the country? Living in the past etc? No it turns out that the policies were short sighted, now we have $70 a barrel oil, coal looks like a great money making option. If we still had those mines they would be making large amounts of money now.
They were not closed for any fiscal reason.
They were closed because of evil vindictiveness. Thatcher hates the working class and Socialism with a vengance.
She made it her mission to destroy any semblance of defiance in this country.
She was determined to destroy any power the working man may have.
A man alone has no power, this is the situation we have today.
In the days before Thatcher we were organised and had power in the form of the Trade Unions. She determined to destroy this.
By bribing the police with massive wage increases, and changing the terms of engagment, she ensured a police force that was willing to do her bidding.
She then took on the Miners, who had always been known as the leaders of the working men. She described men such as myself as "the enemy within"
Arthur Scargill fell for a trap by refusing a ballot, this led to a split in the union and traitorous action by the other unions in not calling a General Strike.
The rest is history.
This leaves us now in the ironic situation of being dependent upon the Russians for our supply of energy, the very people Thatcher claimed to despise.
Mind you she did say about Gorbachev "This is a man I can do business with"
Was this business closing down our coalfields, and buying all our gas off the Russian conmen?

It is funny the way that, during the course of this thread, you have gone from denying that global warming is a man made or serious problem, to claiming you are an advocator of clean energy who's cause will be harmed by the Drax protestors. Make your mind up mate.
I dont see your point here.
I have always believed in clean energy as any engineer does. Inefficiency is not acceptable.
I have said that global warming is partly due to mans activities, but omnly a small part.
When mankind first appeared the planet was in the grip of an Ice Age.
Are you suggesting it was Early Mans activities that led to the end of that era? Nonsense, the Earth has been steadily warming due to natural forces for tens of thousands of years and will go through periods of cold and heat when mankind is a only remembered from the evidence in the rock strata.

Reminds me of when my brother and I were security guards at the site of the Birminigham Northern Relief Road (m6 toll). All the tree huggers turned up and climbed all the trees. Anyway one day the road building company got an injunction saying we could "remove" the protesters from the site. So me my brother and the other guards started to play a game called "Knock a tree hugger out the tree" all the staff who wanted to play put a quid in a bucket and threw stones at the crusties first person to knock someone out of the tree got the money ion the bucket.:hihi:

Twas a nice little earner. I even heard rumours that a couple of coppers had a go.:hihi:

An act which makes you no better than the tree-huggers. In fact it makes you worse, having been one of those in authority.

Saw them on TV. The usual soap-dodging, sandal wearing, lentil eating rent-a-mob.
What they failed to address is how much the police operation (which wouldn't have been necessary if it wasn't for these latter day Greenham Common types) cost US taxpayers.
Of course it wouldn't affect them as, judging by their appearance, nobody would ever, EVER employ them.

Saw them on TV. The usual soap-dodging, sandal wearing, lentil eating rent-a-mob.
What they failed to address is how much the police operation (which wouldn't have been necessary if it wasn't for these latter day Greenham Common types) cost US taxpayers.
Of course it wouldn't affect them as, judging by their appearance, nobody would ever, EVER employ them.
Oddly enough I saw a bit with a couple of people being talked to, they seemed quite reasonable.

As for the policing cost...only the same as any saturday when football is on up and down the country, music gigs, festivals etc etc.

Saw them on TV. The usual soap-dodging, sandal wearing, lentil eating rent-a-mob.
Of course it wouldn't affect them as, judging by their appearance, nobody would ever, EVER employ them.

Which nicely illustrates what a narrow-minded bigoted point of view you have.

Saw them on TV. The usual soap-dodging, sandal wearing, lentil eating rent-a-mob.
What they failed to address is how much the police operation (which wouldn't have been necessary if it wasn't for these latter day Greenham Common types) cost US taxpayers.
Of course it wouldn't affect them as, judging by their appearance, nobody would ever, EVER employ them.

Agree entirely. I would have loved to have been a copper yesterday, take a few truncheons to a few tree-huggers. Can't stand em.

Agree entirely. I would have loved to have been a copper yesterday, take a few truncheons to a few tree-huggers. Can't stand em.
Why's that then? Do you advocate violence against everybody you dislike?

Why's that then? Do you advocate violence against everybody you dislike?

I just think they should have something better to do with their time. Maybe get a job or something?

They complain about pollution - do they not use electricity?

They complain about building roads - do they walk everywhere they go?

I just think they should have something better to do with their time. Maybe get a job or something?

They complain about pollution - do they not use electricity?

They complain about building roads - do they walk everywhere they go?
Yes , of course they use electricity. Some of them will have jobs. What they're doing/have done is to point out that the Drax power station is a massive polluter. If the upshot of that is more focus on cleaner greener ways to produce energy then surely only a halfwit would complain.

And as far as roads go, yes, road protestors use them too, but maybe they object to them being built through ancient woodlands, SSI's or peaceful village communities.

I just think they should have something better to do with their time. Maybe get a job or something?

They complain about pollution - do they not use electricity?

They complain about building roads - do they walk everywhere they go?

Do you *know* they don't have jobs?
I have a job, and was tempted to go along myself.

I'm sure they do use electricity, I think the complaint is more about how the power is generated and how we (as a nation) waste so much.

As for the roads...again some may drive but choose to avoid it if they can.

While I dont doubt there are some of the more extreme elements at the camp, I'm sure there are just as many reasonable folk there (or have been during the course of things).

Oddly enough I saw a bit with a couple of people being talked to, they seemed quite reasonable.

As for the policing cost...only the same as any saturday when football is on up and down the country, music gigs, festivals etc etc.

I take it you also noticed that one or two were carrying young children who knew nothing about what was going on. I suspect they were carrying them to avoid being hustled back to where they came from. A lot of children carrying banners too. And most too young to understand what it was all about.

I take it you also noticed that one or two were carrying young children who knew nothing about what was going on. I suspect they were carrying them to avoid being hustled back to where they came from. A lot of children carrying banners too. And most too young to understand what it was all about.
Indeed I did notice...not so happy about that :rant:

So what we have learned is;

If you are going to protest, don't dress up as clowns or The Sun won't take you seriously. And don’t do something as unselfish as trying to save the environment, try something like saving your own job or you will be painted as a treehugging, soap dodging, earth mother, lentil eating, tofu loving, hippie.

If you put on a balaclava, take a sock full of ball bearings, a 10 foot length of metal pipe and a baseball bat, wear a suit and get washed before you go, you are all good!

So what we have learned is;

If you are going to protest, don't dress up as clowns or The Sun won't take you seriously. And don’t do something as unselfish as trying to save the environment, try something like saving your own job or you will be painted as a treehugging, soap dodging, earth mother, lentil eating, tofu loving, hippie.

If you put on a balaclava, take a sock full of ball bearings, a 10 foot length of metal pipe and a baseball bat, wear a suit and get washed before you go, you are all good!


I think that about sums it up nicley.

And as far as roads go, yes, road protestors use them too, but maybe they object to them being built through ancient woodlands, SSI's or peaceful village communities.

They'll be in favour of building bypasses then?

So what we have learned is;

If you are going to protest, don't dress up as clowns or The Sun won't take you seriously. And don’t do something as unselfish as trying to save the environment, try something like saving your own job or you will be painted as a treehugging, soap dodging, earth mother, lentil eating, tofu loving, hippie.

If you put on a balaclava, take a sock full of ball bearings, a 10 foot length of metal pipe and a baseball bat, wear a suit and get washed before you go, you are all good!
Yes this all these people have done.
They have made the people who know about how to alter the situation look like fools.
The type of people you describe above, of either type, are the ones who are used in games they cannot believe exist, never mind take part in.
Didnt a famous German in the 1930's describe them as 'useful idiots' or something?

They'll be in favour of building bypasses then?


To go round the nuclear power stations you say we should start building? What is the point you're trying to make exactly?

I have said that global warming is partly due to mans activities, but omnly a small part.
When mankind first appeared the planet was in the grip of an Ice Age.
Are you suggesting it was Early Mans activities that led to the end of that era? Nonsense, the Earth has been steadily warming due to natural forces for tens of thousands of years and will go through periods of cold and heat when mankind is a only remembered from the evidence in the rock strata.

Did you TOTALLY miss my earlier reply to your comment about human activity and global warming?!

Ok, here it is again.......................


Sorry, you're just plain wrong:

"Recent Hadley Centre studies make us increasingly confident that human activity is a major cause of the climate change during the last 50 years."

This from OUR OWN Met Office Climate Change group
http://www.metoffice.com/research/ha...00/causes.html

No I didnt miss it, I just ignored it :D
Much as many people on here ignore things they dont believe.

No I didnt miss it, I just ignored it :D
Much as many people on here ignore things they dont believe.

He's not talking about Santa claus - this is scientific data from the met office.

donkey et al, I know how much some people love to take my words out of context, so I will just give a potted version of what I mean.

We cannot live without electrical power
Drax is a marvellous monument to mankinds abilities
It does in a way add to the greenhouse gases
Global warming is a natural phenomenum
We must work toward a cleaner method of energy production
The kind of people fighting with workers and police at Drax are a disgrace
They have made people who have the knowledge and ability to bring about clean energy a laughing stock.

That is my position and has been from post 1

...We cannot live without electrical power
Drax is a marvellous monument to mankinds abilities
We must work toward a cleaner method of energy production

Agreed.


It does in a way add to the greenhouse gases

In a way? It is churning out quite a bit...there is no 'in a way' about it ;)


Global warming is a natural phenomenum

So it's ok to speed things up then? Let's bring about all the unpleasentness as fast as we can to get it over with eh?


The kind of people fighting with workers and police at Drax are a disgrace
They have made people who have the knowledge and ability to bring about clean energy a laughing stock.

Not so sure they are a disgrace. Maybe some of them are people I would not choose to champion the cause, but then I guess they are doing a better job than me at keeping the issue on the frontpages.

donkey et al, I know how much some people love to take my words out of context, so I will just give a potted version of what I mean.

We cannot live without electrical power
Drax is a marvellous monument to mankinds abilities
It does in a way add to the greenhouse gases
Global warming is a natural phenomenum
We must work toward a cleaner method of energy production
The kind of people fighting with workers and police at Drax are a disgrace
They have made people who have the knowledge and ability to bring about clean energy a laughing stock.

That is my position and has been from post 1

That's all very reasonable, until you get to the bit about Global warming being a natural phenomenum. And that is the central issue of what the Drax protest is about.

Please share the information that has convinced you that the rising global temperatures are totally un-connected to human activity. I'm sure the majority of climate research scientists who take the opposite view to you, would like to be informed of this secret information you possess as well.

Then they can retract the conclusions they have drawn from thousands of hours of painstaking research in hundreds of different studies, and tell everyone they can stop worrying.

That's all very reasonable, until you get to the bit about Global warming being a natural phenomenum. And that is the central issue of what the Drax protest is about.

Please share the information that has convinced you that the rising global temperatures are totally un-connected to human activity. I'm sure the majority of climate research scientists who take the opposite view to you, would like to be informed of this secret information you possess as well.

Then they can retract the conclusions they have drawn from thousands of hours of painstaking research in hundreds of different studies, and tell everyone they can stop worrying - all thanks to Artisan. You'll probably get a Nobel Prize.
They can carry on worrying, because global warming will continue.
This planet has gone through many cycles since it formed.
Most recently was a long 'Ice Age'.
The entire Globe except for the Tropics was covered in ice many thousands of feet deep.
The planet then, due to its cyclical variations began to warm up, the ice melted, and is continuing to melt. The planet will get warmer and warmer, until it alters its orbit again and becomes gradually cooler.
Nothing mankind can do, given that we do not yet have the ability to alter the Earths orbit, can change this to any degree.
It is all a matter of Mankinds arrogance thinking that we are the be-all and end-all of the Universe.
This planet will be here when mankind are forgotten

Couldn't agree more old boy

Any way all this talk of global warming etc. on which we are broadly agreed, dosnt answer the original point which is, bluntly, :-

That in my opinion these people do far more harm than good, because they are leaf eating fools, who dont have the first idea about engineering.

They can carry on worrying, because global warming will continue.
This planet has gone through many cycles since it formed.
Most recently was a long 'Ice Age'.
The entire Globe except for the Tropics was covered in ice many thousands of feet deep.
The planet then, due to its cyclical variations began to warm up, the ice melted, and is continuing to melt. The planet will get warmer and warmer, until it alters its orbit again and becomes gradually cooler.
Nothing mankind can do, given that we do not yet have the ability to alter the Earths orbit, can change this to any degree.
It is all a matter of Mankinds arrogance thinking that we are the be-all and end-all of the Universe.
This planet will be here when mankind are forgotten

I know all that stuff. It's study is called paleo-climatology. Most paleo-climatologists are now of the opinion that the warming we are experiencing at the moment is happening at a far greater rate than occurs in the natural fluctuations. The paleo-climatologists might know a thing or two about paleo-climatology, however, I don't doubt you will completely dis-regard this information. As they say, you can lead a horse to water....

As far as mankind being generally arrogant and placing itself at the centre of the universe, I couldn't agree with you more, but I don't think collecting scientific data about our own potential self-destruction is part of that arrogance. It's just a basic survival instinct.

Any way all this talk of global warming etc. on which we are broadly agreed, dosnt answer the original point which is, bluntly, :-

That in my opinion these people do far more harm than good, because they are leaf eating fools, who dont have the first idea about engineering.

You're a very deluded individual artisan, whose claim to be a socialist seems hollow indeed.

I know all that stuff. It's study is called paleo-climatology. Most paleo-climatologists are now of the opinion that the warming we are experiencing at the moment is happening at a far greater rate than occurs in the natural fluctuations. The paleo-climatologists might know a thing or two about paleo-climatology, however, I don't doubt you will completely dis-regard this information. As they say, you can lead a horse to water....

As far as mankind being generally arrogant and placing itself at the centre of the universe, I couldn't agree with you more, but I don't think collecting scientific data about our own potential self-destruction is part of that arrogance. It's just a basic survival instinct.
I cannot see where we disagree, except on the fine point of the CO2 emissions. 20.8 million tonnes a year @ 556 m3/ tonne. What does that give us?
I think that is about 12 Km3/year, that is a lot.
This is from one power station. I agree even given the vast pool of the atmosphere it cannot continue.
How many of those people fighting with the coppers at Drax could do those simple sums? Non of them, I will bet.
The point I am making is that they dont know what they are on about.
They are not engineers and therefore are only repeating info parrot fashion.

I cannot see where we disagree, except on the fine point of the CO2 emissions. 20.8 million tonnes a year @ 556 m3/ tonne. What does that give us?
I think that is about 12 Km3/year, that is a lot.
This is from one power station. I agree even given the vast pool of the atmosphere it cannot continue.
How many of those people fighting with the coppers at Drax could do those simple sums? Non of them, I will bet.
The point I am making is that they dont know what they are on about.
They are not engineers and therefore are only repeating info parrot fashion.
You are an arrogant man artisan. You are proclaiming about people you've never met, dismissively, on the basis of nothing more than your own silly prejudices. Are you really so stupid to think that only engineers have the perogative to make judgements about the factors that play into global warming?

You're a very deluded individual artisan, whose claim to be a socialist seems hollow indeed.
What is this business with the insults eh?
Why are you on my case?
I have been a Socialist since the day I was born, and I believe in what I say, and do not make snide rejoinders.

What is this business with the insults eh?
Why are you on my case?
I have been a Socialist since the day I was born, and I believe in what I say, and do not make snide rejoinders.
I don't think it was insulting. I think it's clearly arrogant to make an assumption that you're right and someone else is wrong when you have no idea at all about the beliefs of the other person. I think you're extremely judgemental in your attitude to these protestors. If I'm 'on your case' at all - and believe me it's nothing personal - it's because I believe very strongly in the right to protest and that all people, regardless of whether they eat lentils, or are gay or wear sandals or whatever it is that offends you are worthy of respect and recognition.

You are an arrogant man artisan. You are proclaiming about people you've never met, dismissively, on the basis of nothing more than your own silly prejudices. Are you really so stupid to think that only engineers have the perogative to make judgements about the factors that play into global warming?
In my opinion, Engineers and engineers only should have the say over what happens on this planet. We are the only people with the ability to see what is happening around us.
The root word of 'engineer' is 'ingenuity'. Without engineers the human race would not exist.
So it is our right to say the way forward.

In my opinion, Engineers and engineers only should have the say over what happens on this planet. We are the only people with the ability to see what is happening around us.
The root word of 'engineer' is 'ingenuity'. Without engineers the human race would not exist.
So it is our right to say the way forward.

Yeah, that proves it pretty conclusively. You are either a halfwit, or a troll or a hopelessly self satisfied big-headed halfwit.

Yeah, that proves it pretty conclusively. You are either a halfwit, or a troll or a hopelessly self satisfied big-headed halfwit.
What are you then, Halibut?
You seem to have no opinions whatsoever, all you do is comment on others.
Those comments are usually derogatory, and in favour of people who would do damage to this country of ours.
So half man/half fish let us have your opinions :D

What are you then, Halibut?
You seem to have no opinions whatsoever, all you do is comment on others.
Those comments are usually derogatory, and in favour of people who would do damage to this country of ours.
So half man/half fish let us have your opinions :D

I've already given plenty, but if you want some more ask me a (sensible) question. I dispute your suggestion that what I post is usually derogatory. I'm pretty careful to avoid personal insult, I've never been banned. What I do try and do is pick up on people who post ill-informed, bigoted or plain stupid stuff.

I've already given plenty, but if you want some more ask me a (sensible) question. I dispute your suggestion that what I post is usually derogatory. I'm pretty careful to avoid personal insult, I've never been banned. What I do try and do is pick up on people who post ill-informed, bigoted or plain stupid stuff.
And you have the brass neck to call me arrogant!
At least I tell the truth about myself.
When people withold from giving full information on the board, I am always suspicious. Why do people want to remain anonymous?

And you have the brass neck to call me arrogant!
At least I tell the truth about myself.
When people withold from giving full information on the board, I am always suspicious. Why do people want to remain anonymous?

So what would yo like to know about me artisan?

So what would yo like to know about me artisan?
nationality
religion
political bias
family status
profession

Is that enough?

nationality
religion
political bias
family status
profession

Is that enough?

This is PM stuff really, isn't it? But for the record, I was raised in the Catholic faith. I'm biased towards truth, equality and the belief that all people are worthy of respect. Family? Single father of two. Profession, nurse for nineteen years, currently retraining for another public service career.

This is PM stuff really, isn't it? But for the record, I was raised in the Catholic faith. I'm biased towards truth, equality and the belief that all people are worthy of respect. Family? Single father of two. Profession, nurse for nineteen years, currently retraining for another public service career.
You seem like a good man, why you despise your own country I cant understand. Any way it is too late to discuss, goodnight :thumbsup:

You seem like a good man, why you despise your own country I cant understand. Any way it is too late to discuss, goodnight :thumbsup:
Though I say so myself artisan, I am a good man. I love this country very much, consider myself fortunate to have been born here.

In my opinion, Engineers and engineers only should have the say over what happens on this planet. We are the only people with the ability to see what is happening around us.
The root word of 'engineer' is 'ingenuity'. Without engineers the human race would not exist.
So it is our right to say the way forward.
What a load of tosh!
Without engineers we would not have many of the comforts and such that we enjoy true, but not exist?! :loopy:

These people are just stupid - whilst they're intentions are for the good of future generations they just haven't thought it through. We lose this powerstation and thats it! Game Over!! It means we'd be rationed electricity and it would be way expensive.

I know I bang on about Peak Oil/ Oil Depletion but thats because I'm just trying to point out that a reduction in our energy supplies is going to have a serious impact on our way of life - wether your rich, poor or inbetween.

What we do need rather than energy wasted on stupid demo's is energy spent on devoloping/discovering mass energy resouurces that doesn't involve fossil fuels in any way or form - as regardless of how safe we feel they will run out but before that they will deplete!!!

Remember this powerstation powers 7% of the UK - thats a massive amount to lose!!!!

What a load of tosh!
Without engineers we would not have many of the comforts and such that we enjoy true, but not exist?! :loopy:
The human animal, by our very nature is an engineer.
From the very dawn of existence we have needed tools and shelters.
These were made and constructed by the more intelligent people in the tribes.
The ingenious ones, the proto engineers.
Art and artistry, went hand in hand with this, as people had more time to relax.
A true engineer has to be an artist as well. As any artisan will tell you :D

Several things annoy me about this.
These people will live in brick & concrete dwellings. Concrete gives off more emissions that any power station.

They will no doubt drive 4wd cars to get Hannah & Jake to private school.

The cost of policing this whole operation runs into millions and will have to be footed by the tax payer!

Why not the shareholders of the company or the company itself?

Why the bloody taxpayer!!!??? :mad:

The cost of policing this whole operation runs into millions and will have to be footed by the tax payer!
Why not the shareholders of the company or the company itself?
Why the bloody taxpayer!!!??? :mad:

This is where the foolishness of having important things such as energy supplies in private hands is shown.
We are having to defend a commodity made by a private firm, because we cannot live without it.
In the days of wine and roses when Thatcher was selling everthing off, to buy the support of her newly enriched cronies, no thought was ever given to the future.

Several things annoy me about this.
These people will live in brick & concrete dwellings. Concrete gives off more emissions that any power station.


Come again Don? ''Concrete gives off more emissions than any power station''
Can you explain that please?

Come again Don? ''Concrete gives off more emissions than any power station''
Can you explain that please?
I read somewhere once that concrete, even when hardened & cured continues to give off gasses/ emissions.

There's a webby link Here (http://www.dundee.ac.uk/civileng/research/concrete/major-areas.htm) that I've quickly found, not to back up my statement, but it does say that Portland Cement uses a huge amount of PFA (pulverised fuel ash from coal) that power stations have as a waste product.

Irony. :)

The manufactue of cement takes up a load of resources, I know this.
But then again, do you want to live in modern society, or the stone age?