Channel 5 screened a program the other night - 'Honey, I suckle the kids' about the movement known as 'attachment parenting'. The essential premise being that one or both parents make themselves 100% available to the child 24 hours a day. Children are breastfed up to an adavanced age (5+ years in some cases), sleep in their parents bed and are home schooled. The parents in the documentary didn't use cots or buggies etc and whilst out and about would carry their children in slings so as their little ones could have maximum contact at all times. Some of them also practised the art (apparently well used in some cultures of raising their infants without nappies and using the babies body language to anticipate when they need to poo or wee.
I found the whole thing fascinating. Not sure I could do all of that myself, but my girlfriend raised her son along similar lines (he didn't start school 'til he was seven I think) and at 12, he's a remarkably secure, confident and socially adept young lad.
Anyone else watch this or have thoughts / experiences they'd like to share?

The parents concerned obviously love, respect and care for their kids.

It does, however, seem a little odd to me - in the case of your girlfriend, Halibut, I wonder if he'd have grown up to be as secure and confident without the breast feeding, etc. because he had such a loving mum? I.e. it's teh application of care and love that does it, not necessarily the 'mammary manifestation' expressed here?

The parents concerned obviously love, respect and care for their kids.

It does, however, seem a little odd to me - in the case of your girlfriend, Halibut, I wonder if he'd have grown up to be as secure and confident without the breast feeding, etc. because he had such a loving mum? I.e. it's teh application of care and love that does it, not necessarily the 'mammary manifestation' expressed here?
That had occurred to me also Joe; no way of knowing really. I think many people may have found the idea of children old enough to walk, talk and take solids still on the breast as rather odd (even distasteful). It's of some regret to me that my own children only stayed at the breast for a couple of weeks. I reckon breastfeeding is a pretty good thing.

My two biggest concerns, I think, were the Mum who looked very much as if she was too attached to her child - even the father admitted she 'might be suffering over-attachment' - I've seen parents who are too clingy and involved in their childrens lives when their children are or should be starting to step out independently, and it's generally not a pretty thing.

The other was the wishy washy attempts at 'positive discipline' - e.g. negotiating with babies and toddlers...they don't have the ability to negotiate yet! Or better yet the long, excruciating attempt to get the kids off the table - 'No, get down. Come on, get off the table. Please get down. I said get down. Get down. Come on, get off the table. You shouldn't be on the table. Oh well, they won't listen to me.":o These children aren't learning that there are consequences for bad behaviour, or respect for other people's wishes, or how to behave appropriately. Just that they can do what they like because sooner or later people will get bored with telling them off and give up and leave them to it. They'll be even bigger monsters when they're older...Right, I'm shutting up now, I sound like my mother:P

Did anyone watch it. Parents who have cast aside all the commercial trappings of parenting and gone for the bush baby approach. No pushchairs, cots etc.

no nappies but ‘elimination communication’, whereby parents reject nappies and try to anticipate their offspring’s every bowel and bladder movement. One mother makes the secret code noise then dangles her 9mth old baby over a flower patch to 'eliminate'.

Baby sleeping with mum and dad until they ask to sleep in their own bed, and being on the hip 24hrs a day with the aid of a sling, even though the child is 4yrs old.

Oh and breastfeeding until the child doesnt want to anymore, which included a 5 year old child who just got comfort from it. Plus mum used the breastmilk to treat hubbys conjunctivitis! along with birthing parties where all the mums get together to watch home birth videos and delight at the muck and gore.

Too far down the hippy trail, or the next big thing?

Is this more for the mothers benefit than the child?

I did see it Fox; fascinating stuff - I started a thread about it two days ago which is probably still around somewhere...:)

I did see it Fox; fascinating stuff - I started a thread about it two days ago which is probably still around somewhere...:)

That would be this one then http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=138774

:blush: didn't come up in a search..

I watched it fox, I thought that the mothers were mainly doing [whatever their hot topic was] for themselves.

It was quite sad because from their own words about their past they'd obviously been through some sort of crummy experience and that had affected their thought processes now - either their 1st baby wasn't how they'd expected so they tried the complete opposite with the 2nd, or - I was treated like this as a child so I'm going to do the complete opposite with my child.... there was no rational thought involved, no stepping back and thinking "is this best for my baby/child?"

I'd love to go to school with that baby who would wee when the parents made a whispering sound in his ear.... the temptation would be too great... psssst.... ;)

In summary; freaks, the lot of them.

I was just worried about the children who were unschooled. They didn't seem to have any social interaction with anyone other than their siblings, which doesn't really set them up very well for society in general.

I watched it fox, I thought that the mothers were mainly doing [whatever their hot topic was] for themselves.

It was quite sad because from their own words about their past they'd obviously been through some sort of crummy experience and that had affected their thought processes now - either their 1st baby wasn't how they'd expected so they tried the complete opposite with the 2nd, or - I was treated like this as a child so I'm going to do the complete opposite with my child.... there was no rational thought involved, no stepping back and thinking "is this best for my baby/child?"

I'd love to go to school with that baby who would wee when the parents made a whispering sound in his ear.... the temptation would be too great... psssst.... ;)

In summary; freaks, the lot of them.
A rather harsh judgement Steve perhaps? My girlfriend raised her son on similar lines...he's twelve now and a very fine young man - and she's definitely not a freak....

I was just worried about the children who were unschooled. They didn't seem to have any social interaction with anyone other than their siblings, which doesn't really set them up very well for society in general.
G/f's lad didn't go to school 'till he was seven; you wouldn't notice any difference between him and schooled kids, but then I think his parents did a great deal of 'social' stufff with him. If anything, he's perhaps more socially adept than most children of that age that I know. I agree that it might be a little worrying if the kids had no interaction outside the family, but maybe that's down to the editing of the programme.

A rather harsh judgement Steve perhaps? My girlfriend raised her son on similar lines...he's twelve now and a very fine young man - and she's definitely not a freak....
Don't get me wrong, I'm not judging the methods - just commenting on the people shown in the program. Like I say I found it quite sad TBH, the mothers were adament that their way was best, when clearly it wasn't always as ideal as they liked to make out (I liked the story about the woman telling her friend how great EC was, as he kid was weeing on her foot, :hihi:).

As another poster recognised in the other thread - there was zero disciplin in the household where they still breast fed the older kids - that's not good for a start and - IMHO - shows that the parents of those kids really didn't know what they were doing, including thinking that breast feeding their kids was stilla good idea. The bloke in that relationship seemed to be so far chilled (hmmmmm.....) he'd have agreed with raising them as fruitbats if his missis has said it was a good idea.

(continued...)

As for your gf and her son - as JoeP suggested - it may have nothing to do with the way he was raised, but IMHO I doubt that the whole nature/nurture thing is that clear cut and I think it sounds like she did a cracking job. That said however, I think that the chances of bringing up a well rounded individual by using the methods shown in the programme as vastly reduced when compared to more 'traditional' upbringings. (It is possible to go too far the other way, of course, which would be just as risky/potentially damaging).

What approach is 'best' to take when bringing up little ones is a tricky one to judge! :)

Yes Halibut I agree it may have been the editing, but the parents did imply that schooling was not part of their agenda full stop.

They hoped that would continue to exclude formal studies until any child wished to attend university. In the real world however it would most likely be difficult for the son (age 7) with no formal education looming to access a uni place without the aformentioned mandatory qualifications. :|

My biggest concern was that this intense parenting didn't seem to give the children any breathing space and they seemed to be overly dependant on Mum.

It appeared to be more for mums sake and well being than the childs.

I couldnt believe what I was seeing! :o Breast feeding at five?! Good god!

I dont neccessarily agree with the principles of this kind of upbringing, however it did open my eyes to what a child actually needs compared to what parents use to make life easier for themselves... (Like the woman who wouldnt buy a pram/baby bouncer and lugged the little one around in a sling type of thing)

Its certainly made me think though... :)

My biggest concern was that this intense parenting didn't seem to give the children any breathing space and they seemed to be overly dependant on Mum.

It appeared to be more for mums sake and well being than the childs.
^^^^^^^^^^ :nod:

My biggest concern was that this intense parenting didn't seem to give the children any breathing space and they seemed to be overly dependant on Mum.

It appeared to be more for mums sake and well being than the childs.
I see your point, although what an advocate of the practise would probably say is that the children when they eventually do detatch themselves from the parents are extremely secure and ready to become independent. I agree with SupraSteve's remark about discipline though also - I wouldn't be standing for any of that larking around on tables nonsense....

An advocate would say that but most likely with no contrast to refer to.

I got the impression that independance to the lady who still lugged around her four year old all day would see being left in a room for 5 whole minutes a leap of independance :rolleyes:

It just concerned me.. :|

One of the ladies said having a baby-bouncer would mean that the baby would get left in it and neglected... However being permanently attached to the mother is hardly a good step either! I suppose the difficulty here is striking the balance between bringing up an independent child and having a close bond with them too.

Merged the two threads...

Blimey!

Now heady with the power, and running off to take over the world!:D

Cosy

Merged the two threads...

Blimey!

Now heady with the power, and running off to take over the world!:D

Cosy

Oh the power! :hihi:

I watched it too with some great fascination as i followed certain attachment parenting things myself with my son. Co-sleeping being one that i followed and it suited us both fine up until he was 16 months old and he went back to waking every hour like a newborn, enough was enough and now he sleeps through in his cot, door shut in the dark. My son is extremely independant and will play nicely for hours on his own but he also has a massive bond with me and tends to follow me round a lot just so he can see me.
Attachment Parenting to the extremeness that these few people showed, disturbed me a little, it came across to me like they were still treating them like babies and wanted to keep them dependant on them for as long as possible.
In todays society breastfeeding isn't seen as acceptable as it was say 30 years ago but could you imagine your children starting school with a child who is still breastfed or imagine a 14 year old letting slip they were breastfed til they were 5, they'd be ridiculed.
The programme definately showed it was for the parents benefit and not the childs. Going back to my son, yes he is clingy with me but he's also a very sociable little boy and will quite happily go off and play with other children so long as he can see me.
If i could do anything differently the next time round, i'd be tempted not to do co-sleeping but that is all, the sling was great up until he was 1-ish and then it was occasionally, i couldn't live without my pushchair/s though!!
When did they find time do to their housework?!!

I saw this programme and felt quite alarmed that the parents slept with there children. This could be highly dangours. I also found it alarming to carry a 4 year old everywhere as it is not good for the childs musles and bones. I thought it was mostly for the parents sake rather than the childs. I understand that some children benifit from home schooling but what about social interaction?
I thought it was interesting and food for thought.

interesting and scary in almost equal measures...I wouldve liked to see interviews with adults who were raised in this manner, perhaps with kids of their own to see if they felt with hindsight that their start in life was ideal and are carrying on the process with their own kids, or if they look back and are disturbed by the way their parents treated them (which if i am honest i think i would be-particularly breast feeding 5 year olds)

I wonder why you think a child would grow up 'disturbed' having been breast fed up to the age of five?

thats not exactly what I meant...I was trying to say that as a 25 year old (for example) once you have a better understanding of current society and common views (whether right or wrong in your eyes) and maybe with a kid of your own, would you then look back and wonder exactly why you were still encouraged to breast feed and sleep with your parents etc even after starting school and if you would wonder at your parents motives rather than considering yourself to be the fantastically well adjusted and balanced individual as implied by the advocates of the parenting method?
I dont think its a method I would want to follow but if others do then fine...each to their own.

Ah, I see what you mean joeyannie. I know a lad who's been raised along these lines so I could ask him. We'll have to wait a while though.
He's only twelve......

I wonder why you think a child would grow up 'disturbed' having been breast fed up to the age of five?

I wouldn't say 'disturbed' exactly but it's not quite usual in our society so it'd bound to raise some eyebrows. I'd think they soon realise it'd be better to keep quiet about it to avoid being teased by their peers. Is your stepson quite open about it, does he even remember?

I think feeding until about a year old is about right, unless they're biters! But when it gets to the stage of them walking up to you and unbuttoning your blouse, it's time to stop :D

I wouldn't say 'disturbed' exactly but it's not quite usual in our society so it'd bound to raise some eyebrows. I'd think they soon realise it'd be better to keep quiet about it to avoid being teased by their peers. Is your stepson quite open about it, does he even remember?

I think feeding until about a year old is about right, unless they're biters! But when it gets to the stage of them walking up to you and unbuttoning your blouse, it's time to stop :D

I've never actually asked him - that might be an interesting discussion. My guess is that he'd be quite comfortable about it as it was pretty much the social norm in the sort of environment he was raised in - but maybe not the kind of thing he'd choose to put about in the playground...
I think it came to an end when his Mum got fed up with it, but she does say that the experience of feeding her son was one of the most fulfilling and special things ever. (He's not my stepson, by the way - but I wouldn't complain at the idea!)

He's not my stepson, by the way - but I wouldn't complain at the idea!

Was that an accidental proposal to your special lady Halibut ;) :hihi:

Was that an accidental proposal to your special lady Halibut ;) :hihi:

Hell no! I don't think she's the marrying kind....

Hell no! I don't think she's the marrying kind....
lol- made you look though :hihi: :hihi:

lol- made you look though :hihi: :hihi:

You always do, fox, you old sweetie you...

I am what you might call an 'ap' parent. I co-sleep, am breastfeeding my 23 month old while pregnant, both dp and I wear slings over prams, we are home schooling (or rather un-schooling) our kids, and do BLW and use cloth nappies.

The people shown on the channel 5 program were rather extreamists. IF you are interested in learning about 'ap' parenting in the 'real' world maybe check out www.iwantmymum.com its a lot more normal than you might think..

that show was edited to the max, and used some really strange people. The voice over really annoyed alot of us as well.

I think this topic is like many others, in that you can always find an extreme example which puts you off the subject, whilst the majority of people will be normal.

We wouldn't even consider co-sleeping, as we both are heavy sleepers and I think parents need their own space...but her cot is only one meter away and she gets cuddles whenever she needs them.

Breastfeeding is advised up to 2 years under the WHO code (http://www.unicef.org/nutrition/index_breastfeeding.html), I am breastfeeding and will continue as long as it suits us, but I hope to get to 6 months at least.

We have a pram and a sling...the sling is great when you want to nip out to several locations in the car and don't want to unpack the pram at every stop or if my daughter is over tired and wants cuddles whilst I need to do housework. Where as the pram is great for longer walks and shopping trips.

We are starting to use real nappies but this is because I hate the idea of all those chemicals and toxins in disposals being so close to my daughters body rather than the green issues.

Wish I had caught the programme sounds interesting.

I watched this programme and have to say that I found it a little alarming and I was also disappointed that the parenting style of these folks was labelled 'attachment parenting'. I didn't so much choose to AP my son - it was the way I cared for him anyway and then discovered it had a name. The people the programme chose to film were extreme - some to the point of bizarre! - and dare I say it: unusual ;)

I am what you might call an 'ap' parent. I co-sleep, am breastfeeding my 23 month old while pregnant, both dp and I wear slings over prams, we are home schooling (or rather un-schooling) our kids, and do BLW and use cloth nappies.

The people shown on the channel 5 program were rather extreamists. IF you are interested in learning about 'ap' parenting in the 'real' world maybe check out www.iwantmymum.com its a lot more normal than you might think..

that show was edited to the max, and used some really strange people. The voice over really annoyed alot of us as well.

Can i ask when you are due your next baby and how you are going to be able to adapt your strict routine to include 2 babies? I only ask because surely your 23 month old is going to see you as theirs and so when another baby comes along and wants mummy milk more, aren't you going to have extra problems with jealously, clingyness etc? I'd also be interested to know what discipline boundaries you have and do you 'wear' your child all the time or does the child only go in the sling when out? Also will both of your children co-sleep with you or will you move the 23 month old to a bed of its own, surely you'd be better dealing with it now rather than a 23 month old being more confused (than a child who sleeps in their own room) and feeling pushed out when the sibling arrives.

I don't want to offend i'm just curious, i co-slept up until 16 months and that was long enough for myself, my son and my partner.

your strict routine
I doubt there is a 'strict' routine if Tiphphinne is an AP'r; APing is more responding to the child's needs as they emerge, than dictating when they will be answered on the parents terms
.

Not a problem at all with all your questions! Its great that people are wondering about it....

I'll do my best to answer your questions!

My next baby is due 09 Jan, when my now youngest will be nearly 27 months old. I actually already have 3 children (all boys ages 5, 3, and 2 (atleast he will be next week)). The eldest has autism so it is very difficult to have a real routine as you never know what he will be wanting to do from one minute to the next. With AP parenting as Henrietta said, there isn't really a strict routine, just one that is more like an outline to try to get everything into a day. We do have a bit of an issue when it comes to sharing me, that we've been dealing with. We've bought our youngest a doll and my son seems okay with allowing me to cuddle and breastfeed (through a shirt lol) his doll, and even brings it to me for a feed when it cries. We have also bought a few special toys that will only be allowed out while I am breastfeeding, so that should work wonderfully as a distraction. But being that my youngest is used to sharing me with his older brothers, he will get used to this....plus I do have two breasts so two babies should be okay:)

Displine wise, we have a 'three strike' rule....they get warnings and if they get to a strike three they have to sit down and have quiet time. They don't leave the room, just have to sit down for a rest, and normally this does it. My eldest does from time to time have to go to his room but that is only when his autism makes him unable to control himself, so its a bit different. All three of my boys love to go in a sling. I am finding it a bit more difficult to wear them with my bump as it is, but my husband enjoys it so has taken over for me. The youngest does go in a sling around the house when he is tired and finding it difficult to go to sleep...we put him in the sling on one of our backs and walk around and he drifts off. Also if he is on a feeding phase (normally when ill) I will put him in a front sling (like a coorie) so that he can feed and I have my hands free to play with the older two, or get some house work finished. Its so much easier than leaving him to scream or cry. He enjoys his freedom to walk around while out as well, but he has only been in a pram a handful of times and screamed his head off, once again very pointless (IMO) because I can wear him with ease, and the pram can get annoying! All three of my children have their own beds, but most nights sleep in our bed for atleast some of the night, and we wake up in the morning with them all with us. We have a drop side cot, so the baby will be in that to begin with. And the older two let us know when they were ready to move out and our youngest will do the same.

Tiphphinne - i just wanted to say 'woah!' and thanks for replying to me, you definately deserve a round of applause and it sounds like your doing a wonderful job, one last question for today but how on earth does your back manage a 5 year old? I tried on a sling a few months back so i could transport my son with more ease and basically to give him more comfort when out on our travels but my back felt like it would just give up any second!

Not sure if you've seen this site on AP but thought i would share - http://messageboards.ivillage.co.uk/iv-ukprattach?redirCnt=1

I plan on following AP more with my next baby, although co-sleeping i don't think i'll do again, i do wish i'd had one of them cots that just slots on to the side of the bed to give myself and my baby independance but so the baby is close enough to feel safe and secure.

The thing with being an 'AP' parent is that there isn't a set rule. I don't really consider myself an AP parent...in fact until about 6 months ago I didn't even know what it was lol!! AP parenting is just about doing what is best and comes naturally for your baby. If that means using a pram, use a pram...if it means not co-sleeping don't co-sleep! (Although with a new baby a drop side cot is sooo helpful if you breastfeed!).

As for how do I sling a 5 year old, all you need is a good sling! The ones you get from mothercare or the like with the frame are rubbish! I have an Ergo which is my favorite... it can be found at http://www.baby-bean.com/ergo-baby-carrier-new-generation-p-66.html

i liked the sling idea on the program, but not a lot of the other stuff. just bought a sling from BRIGHTSPARKSLINGS really friendly company too onyl £16

I dabbled with this idea for the 1st 3 months with both my children. I have to say it was difficult cooking and washing pots with baby in a sling and highly dangerous.
They did sleep with me, on my chest for the 1st 3 months too. I then did a staged seperation with them both. 3 months , went into a crib beside me. 6 months into a cot in my room. after that stage they went inot a room of their own. It's very difficult to keep it up and do it to the letter. I'm also unsure about if it's actually beneficial to carry on for too long.

i would have kept my baby for months more in his crib next to me but he got too long! was so upset when he moved into big boy bed- we bought ANGELCARE though and still use it. Id say my babes it with me 90%of time when not asleep-hes very clingy but likes hugs ffrom others too so im not worried

I LOVE brightsparkslings!
I have 3 slings from her! plus a few others (although not an ergo - I tried one but I am too petite for it to be comfy!).
I don't consider myself AP either although I suppose I might be, we co-sleep with our youngest (7 months old) and she is breastfed/baby led weaned and use slings and are home educating (well ... will be when they get to school age!).
I still imagine I am totally normal though!
Stella

I dabbled with this idea for the 1st 3 months with both my children. I have to say it was difficult cooking and washing pots with baby in a sling and highly dangerous.
They did sleep with me, on my chest for the 1st 3 months too. I then did a staged seperation with them both. 3 months , went into a crib beside me. 6 months into a cot in my room. after that stage they went inot a room of their own. It's very difficult to keep it up and do it to the letter. I'm also unsure about if it's actually beneficial to carry on for too long.
For a newborn I would suggest a slingset or coorie....not the mothercare type ones. It is very safe to cook with a little one or do pots if they're in the sling secure....even more so than leaving a baby in a room with 3 active toddlers, one of whom has autism, and one loves to poke eyes:) I have a coorie from bright sparks:) Its wonderful, but I'm a chest heavy lady and found the added weight a bit much for longer journeys...thats why I've opted for the slingset this time around:)

I had a Hug a Bub and that was brilliant for doing bits round the kitchen - it held son 2 very securely and close (its like a very long piece of stretchy fabrioc that you wrap roubnd both you and the baby). With this I never got back-ache even after wearing him all day - he was a big baby too at nearly 10 lbs when he was born. If you do want to sling definitely choose a nice secure one - not mothercare or baby Bjorn (they arent very good for babys posture aswell as being rubbish on your back and shoulders).

Yes Halibut I agree it may have been the editing, but the parents did imply that schooling was not part of their agenda full stop.

They hoped that would continue to exclude formal studies until any child wished to attend university. In the real world however it would most likely be difficult for the son (age 7) with no formal education looming to access a uni place without the aformentioned mandatory qualifications. :|

Hi

My son was autonomously home educated (unschooled) and he got a 2.1 at Uni, and was the youngest entrant in the memory of the admissions tutor on his PhD program.

I know many home educated kids, and none have had any problems getting into further education, if they don't have qualifications many are accepted on their portfolio or on interview. In America Harvard actively recruits home schooled kids as they feel they are better than average students.

I'm also unsure about if it's actually beneficial to carry on for too long
Son and I coslept for nearly two years, and there has been no adverse effect on his development - not apparent to me anyway - he is a confident, secure, bright wee lad

.

Son and I coslept for nearly two years, and there has been no adverse effect on his development - not apparent to me anyway - he is a confident, secure, bright wee lad .

On the same front I know someone who accidentally smothered her 5 month old little boy while they both slept.

On the same front I know someone who accidentally smothered her 5 month old little boy while they both slept.

She must have been either one very big or one very drunk lady

That kind of incident is actually not that commonplace - especially at a later age of 5 months. As with everything in life: assess first, act after

.

i really dont know how this could ever happen-although im sure it does. i used to have babes in with me for snooze time - i dont think you ever go into a deep sleep. Used to love snuggling with him-now hes just abig lump whos upside down, back to front, flying arms/legs and snoring REALLY loud! so he hardly ever comes in with us now:D