This is my first post, but I have read a lot of threads over the last few months.

One thing has struck me over an over again........

Often when discussing anti social or illegal behaviour, the ethnic origin of the alleged offender is specified ie. Somalian gangs on Devonshire Green, Asian attackers outside Gatecrasher.

Now, I don't have a problem with this. What I do have a problem with is how we try to disown 'white' offenders as chavs etc.

This leads to the impression that 'generally' white people are well behaved, decent people. The exception being the 'under class'.

Whereas, generally Somalis and Asians are in gangs.


Here's a generalisation for you.....nearly all the anti social behaviour that occurs in the town centre at the weekend is caused by 'white' people drinking too much. This behaviour is also a very successful export to lots of foreign lands. Now these people are from all walks of life, not just the council estates.

I wonder how an Asian would be received if he came on to this site complaining about 'white' gangs marauding round the town centre looking for fights every weekend?

All sections of society have there good and bad elements. Ethnic background has a lot less to do with it than economic and social circumstances.

I have detected an undercurrent of racism on this site. Or perhaps its just ignorance or even laziness. Whatever it is, its not a side of Sheffield that should be broadcast around the world on the internet. Unless, of course we want to attract more like minded people.

Before anyone asks, my mum is English and my dad is from the Middle East (here since 1957)- so maybe I can see it from both sides.

Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwn.

Mod edit: This would normally be deleted as it adds nothing to the thread... however it stays to maintain context ;)

A wonderfully constructive and intelligent reply, thank you.

I had noticed that you like to be involved in most threads...are you being sponsored or something?

If not, can't really see the point in your reply.

In fact, no, I wouldn't have expected anything more from you.

I think that there is a instant radar for most people now to pick out racist remarks. Many people have commented on how racism is now going the other way and white communities are now finding themselves at the same disadvantage as most 'minority' groups found themselves a few years ago.

Whilst some may argue that this is only 'fair' considering. I don't think that was the point to trying to stamp out racism.

There are many threads here on Sheffield Forum which highlight a general annoyance at the state of people today. This isn't specified to any particular ethnic group. It is a general feeling of being unsafe in our own homes and city by people who are supposed to be there to help or simply be neighbours and friends.

Generally I try to stay open minded about all people. Being in a minority group myself it doesn't pay to go throwing stones and I understand the difficulties faced. BUt people should be allowed to voice their concerns and feelings on subjects however racists or un pc that may look, just as you have the right to come here and voice your concerns - which i may add is one of the better posts I have seen on the subject...

Lets 'TRY' and keep this a good debate. It has the potential to blow up and I have me broomstick at the ready.

Moon Maiden

you wont turn me into a frog will you moon:D

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
Being in a minority group myself....


Which is?

Originally posted by mojoworking
Which is?

Are blinkered or wot? Would you say that witch's and pagans are in the majority and not subjected to discrimination? If so you really need an education, which I am happy to discuss in pm being that it detracts from the main topic here.

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
Are blinkered or wot? Would you say that witch's and pagans are in the majority and not subjected to discrimination? If so you really need an education, which I am happy to discuss in pm being that it detracts from the main topic here.

Whoa, steady on. Just asking.

Believing in all that cobblers is not really like being in a proper minority group though, is it. Come on, be honest. :)

Thanks moon maiden. Nice to see there are at least some lights switched on in the city!!

I think my point is that whenever society has ills, it is easy to pick on the newcomer as the reason.

I live in Nether Edge and there are a lot of boy racers flying over speed bumps. Now, I could say Asian boy racers, but then I think back to when I was 17 and realise me and my (mostly 'white')mates did the same. In FULWOOD, no less (shock, horror).

So, perhaps this little problem that annoys me is more to do with age than ethnic grouping.

Originally posted by sham71
A wonderfully constructive and intelligent reply, thank you.

I had noticed that you like to be involved in most threads...are you being sponsored or something?

If not, can't really see the point in your reply.

In fact, no, I wouldn't have expected anything more from you.

Thank you. The simple point is that I've seen it all before. The race card gets played so many times these days that it has gone beyond a joke, and it's a shame that "racism" has to be blown out of all proportion over any issue as it takes credibility away from the genuine sufferers of racists.

Originally posted by mojoworking
Whoa, steady on. Just asking.

Believing in all that cobblers is not really like being in a proper minority group though, is it. Come on, be honest. :)

I'll treat that remark with the contempt it deserves and if you really do wish to improve your ignorance please refer to my previous post.

Moon Maiden

1, 2, 3....... ooooooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooh.

I think mojo meant it as a joke moon maiden, not a serious and deeply insulting remark.

Originally posted by t020
Thank you. The simple point is that I've seen it all before. The race card gets played so many times these days that it has gone beyond a joke, and it's a shame that "racism" has to be blown out of all proportion over any issue as it takes credibility away from the genuine sufferers of racists.
How do you know the "race card" is being played? Can you provide us with a good example? Since you're not in a position to be discriminated against yourself, I suggest that you tread cautiously when trying to judge people who are.

I think sham has made a fair observation, and constructed a good post. Unfortunately, as Moon has indicated, this will, once again turn into a left right discussion. You'll be accused of being tree hugger,and the other side will be accused of being thatcherites. after all, the human species really is that simple. People surely can't deviate from those two groups, can they?

I would like to see a decent discussion about this...if it is at all possible?
There are strong views on both sides but without opportunity to discuss these fairly...sensibly tensions runs high and out into community.

Moon Maiden

Sham 71, you'll find that there are quite a few of us on the Forum who have our lights switched on.

In another thread here I mentioned that a lot of issues are more to do with xenophobia than with racism, fascism or any other ism.

Not that xenophobia is excusable, but it does reduce the issues down to one of understanding. There are two sayings that I like to remember. The first is :

"Seek to understand, then seek to be understood"

The second, from a Nazi concentration camp survivor is (and I paraphrase) :

"Between stiumlus and response we have the luxury of thought".

Lack of understanding can give rise to fear, and fear tends to remove thinking.

Another issue to bear in mind is that human beings have the gift to shift from the specific case, to the general rule, then back again. Indeed, making general rules from specific cases is often viewed as a measure of intelligence - unfortunatey, it's also a means by which we can lazily categorise people in to specific groups because of one experience with an atypical representative of the group.

There ARE people in all groups in society that are bad 'uns. However, if people don't understand a group - either from that group's insularity or from their own lack of interest, it's easier to assume that everyone in that group is the same. However, if they see a lot of people from that group behaving in a similar way, they may feel justified in thinking that the group is generally like that.

I happen to agree that there is a large number of young men of a certain age who like to get drunk and cause a ruck on a Saturday night. Apart from age, these men are from a wide section of society - different races, colours and to soem degree classes.

As for the 'chav' phenomena - sorry, but they are identifiable! They dress to meet a 'norm', they're of an age and social background.

As for racial groupings - well, I guess that whenever a minority is present, apply the 'xenophobe' rule above and if ignorance persists against any attempt to rationally deal with it, maybe it's racism.

People will always feel most at home with 'their own' and have problems of a lesser or greater degree with newcomers, outsiders, whatever. If those feelings persist after rational examination of the situation, and taking in to account facts and figures, then perhaps the problems have a basis in reality and need resolving - whether the problems are caused by people of the same colour, creed or social background or a different one.

Basically, applying a 'doctrine' to determine your response to any situation - e.g. doctrines of class, race, gender or any other superiority irrespective of the facts - is lazy thinking. A racist response is just as bad as a PC response.

As for me, well, I used to be in the Labour Party and achieved the office of Chair in a left wing ward here in Sheffield. The Left Wing called me a right winger, the right wing called me aleft winger, the Trots called me a Stalinist and the Stalinists called me Trot. I guess I was doing SOMETHING right! I left in 1996 and now call myself a libertarian socialist....but that's another essay!

Joe

Hi Joe,

Sorry to digress here, but a couple of things:

1. Is that quote from Primo Levi? Certainly sounds like it would grace If this is a Man.

2. I have to disagree about Chavs. I really son't think it has anything to do with social background. It is fashion. In fact, just look at the Bling Bling style of dressing. I see this as a more ostentatiously expensive version of Chavness. So then if you apply this assumption across the UK you begin to venture on to slightly dodgy territory politically.

That's it!

M

PS - I am a former chav. 1992 - BK trainers, Adidas shellsuit, weightlifters gloves and chan chan hat (anyone remember them?!) Now I listen to Shubert!

Originally posted by Mattski

PS - I am a former chav. 1992 - BK trainers, Adidas shellsuit, weightlifters gloves and chan chan hat (anyone remember them?!) Now I listen to Shubert!


Listening to a little Schubert is no penance for once wearing a chan chan hat.

My sentence would be to listen to the whole of Cage's repertoire whilst wearing a hair shirt. :D

Originally posted by Mattski
Hi Joe,

Sorry to digress here, but a couple of things:

1. Is that quote from Primo Levi? Certainly sounds like it would grace If this is a Man.

2. I have to disagree about Chavs. I really son't think it has anything to do with social background. It is fashion. In fact, just look at the Bling Bling style of dressing. I see this as a more ostentatiously expensive version of Chavness. So then if you apply this assumption across the UK you begin to venture on to slightly dodgy territory politically.

That's it!

M

PS - I am a former chav. 1992 - BK trainers, Adidas shellsuit, weightlifters gloves and chan chan hat (anyone remember them?!) Now I listen to Shubert!

Hi,

The quote was from Victor Frankel.

Primo Levi was a great writer - I have 'If this is a Man' on my study shelves.

I suppose I use chav as a form of shorthand - some of that lazy thinking I was muttering on about. It IS a social thing, and not just a fashion statement - at least that's how I view it, anyway. I experienced a little 'chavdom' the other day on a bus. Two guys who were virtually incoherent from dope (they put the joints out getting on the bus), in full 'chav' regalia, carrying their beer cans insulting folks getting on the bus.

I assumed that they were not working - I was returning to work - as they were so stoned / drunk that they'd be useless at any job.

So - 'uniformed', unemployed, drunk / drugged at 1300hrs on a weekday. To me that is not the behviour of a 'typical' pair of blokes.

Being a chav is more a state of mind. I use it as a shorthand for people who are apparently unemployed (whether through desire or inability I'm not sure), with disposable income for drink and drugs, following a particular fashion 'scene' and exhibiting behaviour that is deliberately unsocialised or even anti-social, lack of interest in anything not directly associated with their own immediate gratification..

I don't associate 'bling-bling' necessarily with being a chav. And you don't sound like a chav. I doubt a chav would have heard of Primo Levi unless it was a form of dope or lager.

Joe

Originally posted by Sidla
How do you know the "race card" is being played? Can you provide us with a good example? Since you're not in a position to be discriminated against yourself, I suggest that you tread cautiously when trying to judge people who are.

Why can't I be discriminated against???

Hey Joe/Greybeard,

Too drunk on Tesco's super to respond properly ; )

But anyway, Greybeard I feel I have fully paid my debt to society from 2 years in the civil service. Can you get any more of an opposite from Chavdom?!!

And Joe. Primo Levi. Suicide or not?

M

Great thread Sham 71. I was fond of your older brother, Sham 69.

I agree with your point about it being easy to dismiss white troublemakers as chavs. It's easier to deal with people of whom we disapprove of as 'other'. The mass media have been doing this for years, vilifying miners, asylum seekers, young mothers and many, many others. They are portrayed as scroungers and the scourge of society and 'not decent people, like you and me.' In doing so it makes the joe publics feel good about themselves and, of course, sells newspapers.

My belief is that we all have inner chav and all behave poorly sometimes. Well, apart from the wearing of tracksuits anyway.

Think I might just duck for cover at this point.

Originally posted by t020
Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwn.

Mod edit: This would normally be deleted as it adds nothing to the thread... however it stays to maintain context ;)

I actually think it should have been deleted. If someone is bored by a thread then why do they bother to reply to it? When I saw the thread this afternoon I thought it was a very interesting post by Sham71 and it raised some good points to which I was going to reply ... but then I scrolled down to that imbecilic moronic post and knew it was going to go off topic. Why don't people who don't have anything constructive to say just go to the cbeebies site instead?

Well said, Patchy. There ought to be some onus on us all to moderate our own posts and not expect to be refereed all the time like small children have to be.

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
I'll treat that remark with the contempt it deserves and if you really do wish to improve your ignorance please refer to my previous post.

Moon Maiden

Please don't flatter yourself. Why should I care what you and your mates get up on the weekend? You can call your hobby what you like, but please don't get carried away and elevate it to "minority group" status. There are real issues being discussed here.

Originally posted by Mattski
Hey Joe/Greybeard,


And Joe. Primo Levi. Suicide or not?

M

Good question!

I'd probably say he suffered from PTSD after his experiences - there's a lot to suggest in his writings and general life after the War that he never really got the camps out of his system. And finally it got too much for him.

Joe

Originally posted by mojoworking
Please don't flatter yourself. Why should I care what you and your mates get up on the weekend? You can call your hobby what you like, but please don't get carried away and elevate it to "minority group" status. There are real issues being discussed here.

:lol: That's one of the funniest posts I've read in ages.

Originally posted by Mattski


But anyway, Greybeard I feel I have fully paid my debt to society from 2 years in the civil service. Can you get any more of an opposite from Chavdom?!!



Hi Matski

It was just my feeble attempt at levity. I wouldn't inflict Cage on my worst enemy. It's good that you enjoy Schubert.

IIRC in my youth Teddy Boys were the 'in crowd' in fashionable dress and it seemed that belonging to the group involved a certain amount of anti-social behaviour...I suspect every generation has a different version of this protest against convention. Most of us grow out of it...time is irresistable and convention eventually reasserts its hold on us. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by t020
:lol: That's one of the funniest posts I've read in ages.

Your's and mojoworkings posts stick out like sore thumbs, while there is some thoughtful discussion going on here you guys are adding nothing.

You find mojoworkings post very funny?! His complete lack of respect for someone's spiritual sensibilities makes me cringe.

I for one agree with Shams original post very strongly, I hear so many half-baked anecdotes about the unfair privileges enjoyed by immigrants, or the supposed drug-crazed immigrant gang.

What worries me most about Britain at this time is the continued rise of 'little england', fed on a diet of panderous xenophobic twaddle by such luminous sources of truth as the Daily Express.

It always makes my blood boil when I see the Express go off on its moral crusades, given it's owner Richard Desmond made his fortune out of Porn.

Originally posted by Smiler

Think I might just duck for cover at this point.


No need to take cover, - I'm sure most people will freely admit to passing through a 'kicking against the pricks' phase on the road to maturity.

And lots of people without the time or inclination to think for themselves, adopt the attitude of the newspaper they buy to issues of the day.

Sadly it seems that as a nation we're quite happy for the proprietors of the Sun, Mirror and Daily Mail et al to spoon feed us with their prejudices.

As opposed to the Guardian and Independent spoonfeeding you with their liberalism. Remember, left wing propaganda is a "better" type of propaganda, isn't it? :rolleyes:

(For the record, I don't read the Sun, Mirror, Express or Mail.)

Originally posted by t020
As opposed to the Guardian and Independent spoonfeeding you with their liberalism. Remember, left wing propaganda is a "better" type of propaganda, isn't it? :rolleyes:

(For the record, I don't read the Sun, Mirror, Express or Mail.)

See what you've done there? You've failed to compare like with like. The titles you mentioned (Guardian & Independent) are world renowned, as are The Telegraph and The Times, as well written newspapers. However, the 4 tabloids are well known as story books with pictures. You can't really compare the broadsheets with those disgusting little rags. :loopy:

Like I said, I don't read tabloids. I read The Telegraph and The Times. I like to think for myself though and don't see how being brainwashed by the Guardian is any better than being brainwashed by The Express.

Originally posted by t020
Like I said, I don't read tabloids. I read The Telegraph and The Times. I like to think for myself though and don't see how being brainwashed by the Guardian is any better than being brainwashed by The Express.

And being brainwashed by The Telegraph and/or The Times is better in what way?

Originally posted by mojoworking
Please don't flatter yourself. Why should I care what you and your mates get up on the weekend? You can call your hobby what you like, but please don't get carried away and elevate it to "minority group" status. There are real issues being discussed here.

We like to think that we are all tolerant of each other's beliefs so please don't lower the tone of debate by trying to denigrate someone else's. There is an argument for calling christianty a minority cult which attracts those who indulge in fetes and fund raising. Are they weekend hobbyists?

As to real issues, please stick to them without relying on personal insults.

mojoworking does actually have a point.
Choosing a non mainstream religion doesn't qualify you as a member of a minority group in the same way as having skin of a different colour.
I can't remember the last time my religion or lack of it had any bearing on social interaction with anyone. You can't hide your ethnic background (nor should you have too), but most of the time our religous beliefs are not something openly displayed and thus not something that can be used to discriminate against us.

It's an interesting phenomenon, how ethnic background is reported when there is trouble if it's a minority background. But you don't see headlines like 'White man stabs wife to death', it would just be 'Man' or more likey something else descriptive,'Disturbed man', 'Drug craised man'.
It is about seperating the 'bad' person from the majority of the readers.
If the majority of the readers of a paper are xenophobic or racists then using the ethnic background (as long as it isn't white) is an easy way to achieve that seperation.
For the times they could use social class or income level, 'Destitute man stabs wife to death' or 'Football hooligan ...'

Let me say that I read the sun along with millions of others and sometimes get fed up with this snooty attitude which says if you dont read the broad sheets you are somehow stupid.
This type of snobishness is all too prevelant in our country,which is why we contiue to be a class based society.

To educate. Witches or people with less than mainstream religion are discriminated against because they are classed as minority - whichever way you look at it.

What do you call a minority? Think back in history.

We get abuse - verbal diarrhoea - ignorance - ciolence - and very few rights. Paganism is an accepted religion and as such those intolerant of our beliefs discriminate against us.

As for the rest of the thread - it seems to be getting out of control for the simple reason that people are attacking each other for no reason other than a disagreement of views.

A non-white person always seems quick to point the discrimination finger. Sometimes justified and sometimes not. I know there are whites as bad as blacks - but having suffered discrimintion from blacks because of where I lived my views are biased.

I am a racist - but as long as I am left alone I will leave others alone. The choice is theirs.

Dragon

hi Dragon woul'd you tell us where you live,just the area out of curiouosity.

I have to - of course - disagree Cyclone. We are talking about racism and with this comes discrimination of which peoples of various faiths suffer. There are majority faiths in this country. Paganism currently comes 9th at the last count. The lack of tolerance and general ignorance on the faith makes it little more than a joke to the likes of Mojo and people of their ilk.

I have friends who have been physically attacked because they choose their faith both christian and pagan. Their children have been victimised by teachers in schools - both christian and pagan. I also have friends who have been forced out of their homes because local councils refuse to take harrasment of their belief system seriously.

Now whether or not you believe a persons faith or belief valid - the above behaviour is not acceptable on any level. Just as to behave in that way because of race or colour is not acceptable. It isn't acceptable - at least to me - either to behave in that way because you feel victimised or harrassed for whatever reason.

I think Mojo's responses to these posts are a perfect example of what Sham is talking about.

Moon Maiden

Hillsborough. But I will not vote for such as the BNP because I do not believe all none whites are bad people. In fact - I know there are some really nice ones.

My point of view is my own. My admission is that I am racist and that ends it. I refuse to entertain the idea of driving people away. All I ask is that I receive the same respect I am willing to give.

Dragon

Originally posted by lucasdigital
What worries me most about Britain at this time is the continued rise of 'little england', fed on a diet of panderous xenophobic twaddle by such luminous sources of truth as the Daily Express.


And what worries me about Britain at this time is how a bunch of new age dabblers can seriously call their half-baked (not to say sinister) pastime a "faith". Not only that, that insist on shoving it down our throats at every opportunity on the forum.

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
II have friends who have been physically attacked because they choose their faith both christian and pagan.

I won't dispute that, but I find it difficult to see how it came about. Do you carry a large plaque around that says "I am a Pagan" on it?

Personally I'm an aetheist, but I could worship a large rock outside my back door if I wished, and no-one would be any the wiser.
When I go to work I would still look the same, when I walk to the shops no-one would be able to identify me as different from themselves. Unless I tried to convert them to rock workship.

I guess my question is, how can you be discriminated against for something that no-one can see?

Shows you know nothing about the whole idea of witchcraft. That goes for both posts.

You really are sad if you do not know your own countries history. We have always been around, and always been victimised - especially by those who suffer intolerance levels they should be receiving medication for.

You have obviously not paid any attention to the posts previous to this one. We have meetings, and gatherings, and we care about what is around us, unlike some who have nothing better to do than getting drunk and causing trouble.

You are sad if you think we are invisible. Wichcraft has always been strong in this country, as you ought to know if you were not just shooting your mouth off. I will get no more personal than that - other than to say - what gives you the right to decide what we should believe and what is not worth believing in. You have faith in what you like. No-one suggests otherwise, but at least act like an adult and get rid of your bigotry.

Dragon

Originally posted by mojoworking
And what worries me about Britain at this time is how a bunch of new age dabblers can seriously call their half-baked (not to say sinister) pastime a "faith". Not only that, that insist on shoving it down our throats at every opportunity on the forum.

Very sorry but my faith is very much part of my life and my livlihood and indeed my family. If you wish to accuse me of anything sinister then please lets take this further and off the forums. If you have a complaint about my behaviour either on or off forums - please use the proper channels instead of hiding behind childish insults and baseless accusations.

I am finding your posts increasingly offensive and whilst the temption is to retaliate I think in general you are simply showing yourself up.

Moon Maiden

Dragon...on the one hand you admit you are a racist and in the next post ask someone to get rid of their bigotry.

Something along the lines of living by the sword and dying by the sword comes to mind......

okay, he did have a point I think, but now he's just lost it and gone off into pointless insults. Par for the course based on his normal posts I think.

Dragon - I'm not sure if any of that was directed at me, you said for both posts, did you mean mine?

If you did, then you appear to be mistaken, I have nothing against your religion, i'm just interested in knowing how you are identified as such in order to be discriminated against for example, when walking the family dog?

A pointy hat and broomstick could give the game away.

Like I said - my feelings are my own. I admit to being racist but I do not use how I feel against everyone, and base it only on experience. Take away those experiences and who knows what would be left.

My racism is towards those who cannot respect me or my family. If I had been attacked, robbed, burgled, threatened, stabbed by whites then I would feel the same dislike for those who did me the wrong. That is the extent of my racism - the fact I dislike the none-whiltes who have done these things to me rather than the whole non-white communities.

I really should explain myself better I suppose.

Again - my racism is confined to the few so I am not even sure if that counts. I have good friends who are chinese, blacks, asians. There are good and bad in all. Just unfortunate that I have only experienced bad at the hands of non-whites.

Dragon

How did you know I had a pointy hat? I thought that invisiblity spell worked. Damn!

Back to the cauldron


Cyclone - I have already answered about how I am discriminated against in a previous post.


Dragon

if you dislike specific individuals who have wronged you, that's not racism. It's not an ism at all, it's just life, noone has passed a law that requires you to like everyone.

It's only when you generalise to such an extent that you stereotype everyone of a particular race, and dislike all of them that it becomes an ism.

But like I said - in a way I do because I have only suffered at the hands of non-whites. This has made me more aware of the troubles that are around when they involve mixed races.

Now I also do not like the french - which is also racism, but I dare say many of them are white.

All depends where you are wanting to draw a fine line.

Rather than be accused of it at the end of a thread - I start of with the admission and let others deal with it any way they like. If you do not consider my ideas as racist you should see the responses I got from the police when I reported the incidents. It was apparent to them that I was just a racist???

Dragon

To address your questions Cyclone. There isn't much that could distinguish most of us when walking the dog, or even doing the shopping. There are those who insist on going shopping in ritual robes and the like..but each faith has those who wish to go to extremes.

Many people expect me to dress like a goth and have black hair and the like...but that is the image not the reality.
What leads to discrimination is normally really simple things. Like at school a child may wish to talk about the festival they celebrated with their family and be ridiculed byt he teacher for it being 'nonsense'. I know of many cases where the RE teacher or primary school teacher has denied the existence of the faith completely - which although may be their opinion it leads to ridicule and bullying at school and makes the child feel worthless.

Many people have altars to their dieties in their garden...explaining that one to the old dear next door can be an experience in itself.

I run a website that supports pagan parents in the UK so am fully aware of the difficulties faced by pagans and their families at the hands of ordinary people and the authorities. I personally have only had to put up with insults of my faith here and a rather small incident at Sheffield Fayre last year...I am extremely lucky in this I think and do not forget that.

Moon Maiden

Originally posted by Cyclone
It's not an ism at all, it's just life, noone has passed a law that requires you to like everyone.


yet.....

I can see how that would happen with children.

But i'm always slightly ... what's the word ... troubled I think, by children being brought up with a strong religous influence from their parents.
I know that there is no better way to do it, but children are impressionable and their parents make the greatest impression on them of anyone.
By hmmm, trying not to offend here, nothing I'm saying is aimed at yourself anymore than any other religion...
By teaching them these things as fact at an early age, they are denide the chance to make a judgement for themselves, simply because at the young age they accept whatever they are told as the truth, and later on in life it's far harder to challenge something like that.

Personally i'm glad that my parents never pushed religion down my throat, despite being CofE themselves. I went to church on occasion as a child, and for a little while to Sunday school, but nothing stronger than that. And now they respect my choice not to believe in a God or any force that has consciousness and somehow watches or directs our actions.

I think i've drifted of topic here... So i'll stop now.

Originally posted by Cyclone

I guess my question is, how can you be discriminated against for something that no-one can see?

That's probably why the jews in nazi Germany had to have yellow stars sewn onto their clothes, so that people could identify them and thus discriminate against them. Sorry roy, allegedly discriminate against them, 'cos it didn't happen did it roy? The Holocaust, that is.

jews are identifiable though, it is an ethnic background as well as a religion. Maybe it wasn't easy enough to identify them, and thus the German government took the step you mentioned above.

Originally posted by Cyclone
jews are identifiable though, it is an ethnic background as well as a religion. Maybe it wasn't easy enough to identify them, and thus the German government took the step you mentioned above.

How on earth do you recognise jews? Would you have known Michel Howard was jewish? What about the jewish tribe from Somalia who are now living in Israel?

are they really identifiable as an ethnic background. I mean would you be able to see someone and say they are jewish? Or are you going on the propaganda brought about by the nazi's?

The only reason I know the lady who had a go at me in the fayre was jewish was because of the star of david pendant around her and her daughters neck.

No accusation just interested.

Moon Maiden

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
Very sorry but my faith is very much part of my life and my livlihood and indeed my family. If you wish to accuse me of anything sinister then please lets take this further and off the forums. If you have a complaint about my behaviour either on or off forums - please use the proper channels instead of hiding behind childish insults and baseless accusations.

I am finding your posts increasingly offensive and whilst the temption is to retaliate I think in general you are simply showing yourself up.

Moon Maiden

As I said before, what you get up to is your business. I have no quarrel with whatever you want to believe in. Good luck to you.

But if you cast your mind back, the original post lamented the fact that people are discriminated against because of race or ethnic origin. Now, you must have very inflated level of self-importance if you think that being a self-proclaimed "witch" makes you subject to the same amount of discrimination.

I'm sorry if you find that offensive, but I just don't see the correlation.

I wasn't meaning to be hurtful but, as always, you did rather jump down my throat in reply to my first (I thought) innocent question.

Sorry must remember to insert smilies - it wasn't meant like that (1st post)

I likened my experiences and those I am associated with only to the difficulties faced by many minority groups. It has nothing to do with inflated sense of self just an empathy and understanding of situations and people.
Now you still appear to have a huge lack of understanding as to what it is I am. Self proclaimed has nothing to do with it.

Moon Maiden

I think this is a great place.

Let's hope it stays that way!

Moonmaden is entitled to the same respect as everyone else,her beleifs are evidently important to her and she shoul'd not have to suffer discrimination .
As for the comment from Max of cours'e the holocaust took place I personally have never denied that fact.
And while were on the subject I found what happend to the jews to be pure evil and must never be allowed to happen again.
There I feel much better for that.:)

Sorry moon maiden for the spelling mistake.

just to add that whilst Mojo and myself may have a difference of opinion, any upset or aggrovation has been settled...i hope ;)

Moon Maiden

Originally posted by t020
Like I said, I don't read tabloids. I read The Telegraph and The Times. I like to think for myself though and don't see how being brainwashed by the Guardian is any better than being brainwashed by The Express.


As Max suggested...by reading only the two Ts you're selectively brainwahing yourself.

I don't buy a newspaper at all these days but dip into the on-line versions of all the broadsheets in an effort to arrive at a balanced view of the world and its troubles. The BBC News pages are also worth reading for their lack of political bias and to some extent the on-line pages of the Economist magazine.

And for entertainment you can't beat The Spectator :D

The Sheffield Forum is great, although I admit that I tend to spoil it a little. My comments are extremely silly most of the time, but I can't help it as I am an extremely silly person.

I started being silly some time back in 1969 when I first saw Monty Python's Flying Circus, and haven't looked back since.