The archives mentioned in the post above are in the basement of the central library. The rubbish about the reigning monarch is just that rubbish. I remember the school trip and can remember them saying the archives store a lot of documents and books that are far too fragile to be handled by the general public. I clearly remember the cell like bars that kept people out but more importantly remember on a furhter visit seeing the doors/gates open and a librarian type bustling back and forth.
As a side note I still think that there is a bricked up archway possibly a tunnel entrance in the side of the hill going up past the bottom of Woodbank Crescent on Chesterfield road.

Just read that plug for the Queen's Head pub which has been called to our attention.....
OK! well put together, no spelling mistakes but that don't make it kosher. Tunnels 2 miles long? No way! that'd be about 6000 cubic yards of muck, enough to put a 3 foot deep topping on Bramall Lane pitch... (Not a bad idea, eh?). Anyway, a tunnel to the Manor from Pond St would have to cross the river. Very dodgy even if it were lined properly. And when the railway was put in there would have been some evidence of
underground workings. Sorry, I'm a non believer. And I've not heard that one about Mary doing a bunk after taking a swift half in the Queen's Head. Yes, yes, I know it wasn't licensed then, but she'd have a bit of pull to bend the rules. And the blurb needs up- dating. The bus station's gone, just about; there's no smoky corners since July 2007 &
getting a pint for £2.45 seems a good deal these days.

There is suppose to be a tunnel from The Old Carbrook Hall Pub at Carbrook to the Manor Castle?????

hi
there are several tunnel running under city centre some of trhem where used to transpotr money.from bankers draft pub whitch was a bank.to the cannel.they use to use donkeys to transport these the tunnel entrace is still there at bankers draft end but not save to go down i had a sneek view.when i worked there shhhhhhhhhh
...
garry

Just read that plug for the Queen's Head pub which has been called to our attention.....
OK! well put together, no spelling mistakes but that don't make it kosher. Tunnels 2 miles long? No way! that'd be about 6000 cubic yards of muck, enough to put a 3 foot deep topping on Bramall Lane pitch... (Not a bad idea, eh?). Anyway, a tunnel to the Manor from Pond St would have to cross the river. Very dodgy even if it were lined properly. And when the railway was put in there would have been some evidence of
underground workings. Sorry, I'm a non believer. And I've not heard that one about Mary doing a bunk after taking a swift half in the Queen's Head. Yes, yes, I know it wasn't licensed then, but she'd have a bit of pull to bend the rules. And the blurb needs up- dating. The bus station's gone, just about; there's no smoky corners since July 2007 &
getting a pint for £2.45 seems a good deal these days.

Rivelin Tunnel 4 miles 612 yards.

Rivelin Tunnel 4 miles 612 yards.

Sure! And Totley tunnel & the hole under the Channel.....but these are modern, or relatively modern excavations. Even the sewerage system of a hundred & odd years ago was somewhat longer than 2 miles, but we aren't talking about recent works, the stuff under discussion relates to castles & the Queen's Head, lads in doublet & hose at the latest, with a pick & shovel at best.

If they ever existed for more than a few yards, they had to be cut out overtly, they're SECRET tunnels, for God's sake, not something to be discussed over a pint of ale at the Queen's Head or Dove & Rainbow. And all done without mechanical assistance of any sort....... Rivelin tunnel is a culvert, it carries water not people. There's no need for a ventilation system and the contractors could dump their muck somewhere without arousing the suspicions of the Council.

Lets see some photographs or other believable evidence. To say there are reports of many tunnels, it's surprising nobody has any concrete evidence of their existence.

very interesting about what's been said about the manpower services building - it looks very much like it's designed with fortification in mind with flanking walls, dry 'moats' firing positions very strange. and there is zero chance of it surviving a nuclear strike, but looks like it could be regional distribution centre - but in totally the wrong location...... ...ideal for a zombie invasion though, especially with wickes handily next door

Yes the old MSC was an interesting design, both for urban defense as the southern 'festung' to defend the town center, and the engineering that of a sort of 'house of cards' that would literally get blown off the site in case of a nuclear attack.

Sure! And Totley tunnel & the hole under the Channel.....but these are modern, or relatively modern excavations. Even the sewerage system of a hundred & odd years ago was somewhat longer than 2 miles, but we aren't talking about recent works, the stuff under discussion relates to castles & the Queen's Head, lads in doublet & hose at the latest, with a pick & shovel at best.

If they ever existed for more than a few yards, they had to be cut out overtly, they're SECRET tunnels, for God's sake, not something to be discussed over a pint of ale at the Queen's Head or Dove & Rainbow. And all done without mechanical assistance of any sort....... Rivelin tunnel is a culvert, it carries water not people. There's no need for a ventilation system and the contractors could dump their muck somewhere without arousing the suspicions of the Council.

Lets see some photographs or other believable evidence. To say there are reports of many tunnels, it's surprising nobody has any concrete evidence of their existence.


In case you hadn't noticed tunnels used to be very popular principally because they were built by hand very cheaply. Not so these days of course with things like health and safety being issues to cope with.

I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about.

There is suppose to be a tunnel from The Old Carbrook Hall Pub at Carbrook to the Manor Castle?????

This is a myth, sorry.

Sure! And Totley tunnel & the hole under the Channel.....but these are modern, or relatively modern excavations. Even the sewerage system of a hundred & odd years ago was somewhat longer than 2 miles, but we aren't talking about recent works, the stuff under discussion relates to castles & the Queen's Head, lads in doublet & hose at the latest, with a pick & shovel at best.

If they ever existed for more than a few yards, they had to be cut out overtly, they're SECRET tunnels, for God's sake, not something to be discussed over a pint of ale at the Queen's Head or Dove & Rainbow. And all done without mechanical assistance of any sort....... Rivelin tunnel is a culvert, it carries water not people. There's no need for a ventilation system and the contractors could dump their muck somewhere without arousing the suspicions of the Council.

Lets see some photographs or other believable evidence. To say there are reports of many tunnels, it's surprising nobody has any concrete evidence of their existence.

Rivelin Tunnel is a tunnel hence its name, and it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility for a tunnel from where the Queens Head is to Sheffield Castle.

Below you can see just how extensive and how large tunnels can be built by human hand.

http://www.warsopweb.co.uk/articles/history/mole.htm



Today's youngsters do not have time to explore their district. Children of today are often strangers in their own locality. Today's generation has so much to do, including watching television and surfing the net and it seems they are no longer interested in rambling and enjoying the countryside. Yet I recall a time when there was little else to do but ramble and no doubt we are so much richer for it. I am not surprised that the average schoolchild is unaware of the wealth of interesting history within walking distance of Warsop.

During my school days we heard many stories about the mad Duke of Portland. Tunnels had been dug all over the district so that the mad duke could come and go in secret. "The mad duke was disfigured and he had a terrible disease." "The tunnels allowed lovers to come and go without gossip and some of the tunnels went for many miles." "One tunnel went to Worksop railway station and several others to various gate lodges." "A tunnel from Welbeck ended at the old Warsop rectory." Our elders had passed down these stories and as a youngster I believed every tale. Many Warsop residents still talk of a "mad duke" and some think the earth is riddled with tunnels leading to Welbeck Abbey. Rumours are like snowballs rolling down a slope and no doubt some present day accounts will be more embellished than I show above.

In recent years I have been able to research some of the history of Welbeck Abbey and the dukes of Portland. The stories about a mad duke would be attributable to William John Cavendish-Bentinck-Scott, born 17th September 1800. (I must explain that as was the custom, all male members of the family had the first name William, although only the eldest would use it). So William John was known as John. In 1818 John started a military career and with the rank of captain he served in several Guards regiments. In 1824 John transferred to a reserve regiment on half pay. This was due to the death of elder brother William. John took the title Marquis of Titchfield and became Member of Parliament for Kings Lynn. In 1826 John surrendered the parliamentary seat to his younger brother George, who was far more interested in a political career. March 27th 1854 the fourth duke died and John became the fifth Duke of Portland.

The idea of tunnels big enough for horses and carriages to pass through, certainly piqued my imagination and curiosity. I wanted to try to separate fact from fiction. At least one of the tunnels, starting near the stables was big enough for the special carriage used by the fifth Duke of Portland. The tunnel went for a mile and a quarter and other shorter tunnels can be seen going towards the lake. (Note: The current ordnance survey Explorer 270 map shows the skylights of this and other tunnels that are much shorter in length.)

One tunnel leads to an icehouse near the Greendale Oak. I hasten to say this is not at Cuckney. This is the remains of the famous tree called "The Greendale Oak." Welbeck park was famous for its oak trees of huge proportions. In 1724 the first Duke of Portland wagered with the Earl of Oxford that he could drive a horse and carriage through a tree. The Greendale Oak was chosen, as it was a giant of a tree. After a lot of chopping and cutting of the tree, a horse and carriage did indeed pass through and the Duke won his wager. Not surprisingly there's little left to see of the old tree, just the remains of a stump enclosed by an iron fence near the yacht house. Fortunately I have visited and have been able to see some of the evidence of which I write. I have necessarily had to borrow on the writings of several historians and sources, most of which is now public domain.

Think of digging tunnels. How deep should they be (or how near the surface?) Do we require skylights and vents? If we do need skylights then our tunnels must not be too deep. How far can we extend our tunnels? I am not an engineer but I would think we could go a long way provided the terrain allowed. If we meet with a hill we may have problems and if we go down a valley we will most certainly get wet. Without some pumping and drainage I fear that tunnels do not go as far as some of us imagined. But, excavations and construction of tunnels seems to me to be a fine way of providing work and a better way of improving the local economy than if one chose to throw half crowns on our streets.

The fifth Duke of Portland may have seemed peculiar to many - but he was certainly not mad. In a time of abject poverty in Worksop, Mansfield and district, the Duke's preference for excavations and underground workings provided a living for 15,000 workmen for 18 years at an annual cost of £100,000. The subterranean work included the digging of flood dykes and millponds. Other projects included an underground chapel, a library and ballroom. It was said at the time that the prime reason for all of the work was to provide a living for as many of the locals as possible.

With regard to the ballroom I heard of something I have not yet been able to substantiate - but I like the story and it goes like this. The fifth Duke had a passion for roller-skating and he wanted a rink built. He had one made for the estate workers and encouraged its use as a healthy pastime. When the Duke asked an architect to design a roof over the rink he was told that it must have columns or pillars to hold up the roof and some of the columns would need to be near the middle of the rink. This was not satisfactory for the Duke and he sent the architect away. Later the same architect returned to tell the Duke that if he would accept an underground rink (or room) he could pre-fabricate a roof to roll over at floor level and this could be done without any supports. So the underground ballroom, which also doubled as the Duke's private roller rink was soon built. When it was completed it had become the largest unsupported room in Europe. Or as we might say - it had the largest floorspace without obstruction. (55 yards by 22 yards.)

The fifth Duke was a kind man. He was often called "The workers friend". New workers were provided with a suit of clothes, a top hat, an umbrella and a donkey. Now that is starting to seem a little mad but the logic was that many workers had to travel some distance across the estate, regardless of the weather and the Duke did not want workers exhausted before they arrived at their place of work. When I first learned of this I could not help but wonder at how many donkeys were on the estate and from where they were obtained. Perhaps the Duke employed men to breed donkeys.

Most of the permanent workforce lived on the estate and when any worker, or member of his family became sick, the Duke would arrange a visit to ensure that anything needed would be provided. Food and fuel would be delivered. A doctor or a nurse would be called as appropriate. The Duke would also compensate widows and orphans after any fatal accident of a worker. I understand that a widow could expect to live on the estate free of rent, with an annual gratuity that was about half pay of a worker.

Not surprisingly, the Duke's love life (or lack of it) was often the cause for speculation and the object of rumour. As a young man the Duke liked to go to the Opera, where he fell for Adelaide Kemble, a well-known opera singer. She refused his proposal and he was not known to be interested in any other woman. John was intensely involved with all aspects of the estate management. The kitchen gardens at Welbeck were outstanding. The Duke had double walls built around the garden and used huge braziers as well as piped hot water to ripen exotic fruit. Peaches and pineapples were grown in a controlled microclimate. The Duke was known to be very knowledgeable with regard to horticulture and could often be found chatting with the gardeners. He was also known as one of the finest judges of horseflesh at that time. Countless winners of classic horse races had pedigrees traced back to Welbeck.

It is unlikely that there is any substance in the idea of love trysts in tunnels, or if there were any assignations, John would not be involved. The Duke did suffer ill health at times but there was no disease or disfigurement. It is known that he used a tunnel for trips to London. Each Journey would begin at the stables, where four fine horses would draw the Duke's wagonnette along a tunnel for a mile and a quarter. A couple more miles by road to reach Worksop railway station where a special "flat wagon" was kept in sidings. The wagonnette would be rolled onto the flat and fastened down and then shunted for connection to be made on a London train. The Duke remained inside, with blinds drawn for the entire journey.

Although this next snippet has very little to do with John, I include it, if only because I found it interesting. You will have traveled the A60 to Worksop and almost certainly have noticed that the road passes into Derbyshire for half a mile near the main entrance to Welbeck abbey. The road actually bends away from the abbey, but it was not always like that. The county boundary was at one time West of the A60 and never cut across it. The fourth Duke of Portland (John's father) was somewhat of a negotiator. It is said that when a railway company wanted to put a permanent way through land belonging to the Welbeck estates he would bargain and make certain stipulations. The Railway Company had to agree that they would provide adequate crossings for working people and for sporting activities. Also that a train to London would be available at a convenient station within easy reach of the abbey. (Perhaps Retford has been the choice in recent years.) Provision for transporting a horse carriage may well have been included in a deal. When the local authority requested use of the estate land for some road improvements, the fourth Duke agreed on condition that the A60 be moved further away from the abbey. So that is the reason we go into Derbyshire to get to Worksop.

Later in life the fifth Duke became a recluse. That is not unusual - we all get old and as we do so we cannot be expected to trip about as we did in our younger days. Being a recluse is not madness. John chose to use just 4 or 5 rooms in the abbey. These rooms were painted pink and each had a convenience in a corner.

On the 1st July 1878 the Duke's wagonnette carried John through the Welbeck tunnel for the last time. He remained in his London residence of Harcourt House until he died on the 6th December 1879. John's burial was a simple, cheap affair in Kensal Green cemetery. Many families mourned with reverence, the passing of their benefactor.

I wonder if there are still many Warsop people who talk of a mad duke. - T.K.S.
Images courtesy of Andy Nicholson

Since the above was written and the pictures kindly included, the writer decided it appropriate to add his own photos taken on a public path near a Welbeck estates lodge. How many people, who have walked along a popular path just two miles South of Worksop, have been aware of a tunnel entrance? Of course the entrance is securely locked and the casual walker may mistake the entrance for a garage. Perhaps the management of Welbeck estates thinks it prudent to keep a low profile on this and other possible tourist attractions.



As I approached South lodge I met with a sign telling that this was the limit of parking. A public footpath from Worksop (2miles) comes around the lodge and between it and the tunnel. I remained on the public footpath so that I had no need to seek any permission to take pictures. Unfortunately I had to photograph into very bright sunshine but I was not able to wait until the sun went down

I was delighted to discover the end of the longest Welbeck tunnel was just where I had calculated but I cannot understand why this is called South lodge when it must be one of the most Northerly of lodges - Perhaps Northwest of the abbey..

Notice that the tunnel door is at path level. Behind the brickwork can be seen earthworks, or what looks like a railway embankment. It slopes gently away until the tunnel is below ground level.

Note the smoke from chimneys. Someone lives in the structure around the tunnel. South lodge is on the left of the path.


This article was researched and written by the late Charles Barlow.


Links to further reading...
Nottingham University - Manuscripts and Special Collections
Nottinhamshire History - The Portland Peerage
Andy Nicholson - The Great Houses and Families of Nottinghamshire
Andy Nicholson - Nottinghamshire History and Archaeology

http://www.defence-estates.mod.uk/news_events/de_press_releases/2000/022000%20-%20ops%20note%20em.pdf

In case you hadn't noticed tunnels used to be very popular principally because they were built by hand very cheaply. Not so these days of course with things like health and safety being issues to cope with.

I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about.

Oh dear! You're irritated, you're a believer! Sorry, I hadn't considered that tunnels were constructed because they were popular, I thought there might have been a more practical reason for scrabbling around under the town, risking death by suffocation or drowning when the water seeped in.....

Before you conclude that I am totally wrong in my scepticism, tell me how they got the product of excavation back to the surface when, according to legend, the entrance might be as far as a mile away. Sounds like I'm not the one who knows nowt! And give me proof that these old wives' tales have some substance. Photos or a guided tour will suffice.

Welbeck - the Tan Gallop's are under ground but they aren't underground.

Before you conclude that I am totally wrong in my scepticism, tell me how they got the product of excavation back to the surface when, according to legend, the entrance might be as far as a mile away. Sounds like I'm not the one who knows nowt! And give me proof that these old wives' tales have some substance. Photos or a guided tour will suffice.

Do you need diagrams of how the pyramids or stone henge were built or are you willing to accept they are in fact there.

I don't think the MOD are deluding themselves re the Welbeck system, dug in the days when a steam traction engine was the best modern technology available, then again you know better don't you.

..........and no, simply wrong or skepticism were not the words in my brain that would be a descriptive of you.

I would assume that the best people to get hold of would be the contractors who dug out the ponds forge foundations as surely any tunnels from the castle to the queens head would have gone in this direction.
There is also plenty of people who claim to have seen the entrances to these tunnels in some of the pubs cellers so cant we just get someone to go around and photograph them.
Unfortunetly even if people find the entrances to these tunnels if there is any left then we would never be able to prove that they went to the castle as the site has been redeveloped over the last century so much that i doubt anything under there would be left intact.

I would assume that the best people to get hold of would be the contractors who dug out the ponds forge foundations as surely any tunnels from the castle to the queens head would have gone in this direction.
There is also plenty of people who claim to have seen the entrances to these tunnels in some of the pubs cellers so cant we just get someone to go around and photograph them.
Unfortunetly even if people find the entrances to these tunnels if there is any left then we would never be able to prove that they went to the castle as the site has been redeveloped over the last century so much that i doubt anything under there would be left intact.

Sounds logical as a suggestion but there's actually no point if the reason to do so is just to try to prove the case to those who come on here denying that there were ever any tunnels just because they want to lay scorn on those that do. The fact is that anyone coming here with this intent has no proof at all for their contention whereas there's lots of proof that major tunnel systems exist all over the world.

As to the tunnel from the Queens head up to the Keep at Manor Castle that one still existed up to the early 80's although I suspect that the Sky Edge development might have cut through it as it was very close to the surface at that point and had been cut into by mine workings of the old Nunnery Pitt in the period between the wars.

I would assume that the best people to get hold of would be the contractors who dug out the ponds forge foundations as surely any tunnels from the castle to the queens head would have gone in this direction.
There is also plenty of people who claim to have seen the entrances to these tunnels in some of the pubs cellers so cant we just get someone to go around and photograph them.
Unfortunetly even if people find the entrances to these tunnels if there is any left then we would never be able to prove that they went to the castle as the site has been redeveloped over the last century so much that i doubt anything under there would be left intact.

I dug out part of Ponds Forge with a JCB and hit a very large pipe shaped structure, the engineer didn't know it was there and they worked around it as it was in the very end of the pool area, not having tunnels in mind, thought it may have been part of the city sewage system.

I dug out part of Ponds Forge with a JCB and hit a very large pipe shaped structure, the engineer didn't know it was there and they worked around it as it was in the very end of the pool area, not having tunnels in mind, thought it may have been part of the city sewage system.


Interesting, the tunnel is made mostly of Red Brick with the odd stone in near the base, its approximately 8 feet high at it highest and five feet at the lowest (lowest being near the Keep, I guess they revised their plans to make things easier and quicker as they went along).

So the bit you saw if it was the tunnel would be 9 feet high from its base and about 4 feet wide, does this match your recollection.

Interesting, the tunnel is made mostly of Red Brick with the odd stone in near the base, its approximately 8 feet high at it highest and five feet at the lowest (lowest being near the Keep, I guess they revised their plans to make things easier and quicker as they went along).

So the bit you saw if it was the tunnel would be 9 feet high from its base and about 4 feet wide, does this match your recollection.

It is going back a bit, but the part I uncovered was a good four foot or more, as you can imagine they wanted as little as possible uncovering, and very carefully, had it been a part of the sewage system we'd have all been up to the neck in it.:hihi:

Interesting, the tunnel is made mostly of Red Brick with the odd stone in near the base, its approximately 8 feet high at it highest and five feet at the lowest (lowest being near the Keep, I guess they revised their plans to make things easier and quicker as they went along).

So the bit you saw if it was the tunnel would be 9 feet high from its base and about 4 feet wide, does this match your recollection.

Interesting indeed. I suppose the 9 feet high bit was for men with spears, but the 5 ft. section seems a little mean, even for Middle Age shorties. Guess it's more likely to be a drain or something to do with Seniors' works which were there before, rather than a walkway. Look... nobody suggests there aren't excavations under the city. Thoroughfares for foot traffic two miles long ARE disputed. Woodhead tunnel was started in the 1830's (I think), they could do it then. But could they do it, secretly mind, in the 13th century? They could dig down for coal, for sure, & lay primitive sewer systems....... There's a legend about tunnels from every old building in the city, but nobody's ever seen one for certain. Short bits, yes, & bits of old sewerage or vent systems. A blocked up door out of a cellar, or a short passage way from it, is no proof of something two miles long.

I've done my share on building sites, was there when they found an old forgotten room beyond a cellar wall in the Hutt Hotel, close by Newstead Abbey. Work stopped, a small hole revealed suits of armour glinting in the torch light. So they thought. It was shiny metal alright... paint tins in the garage beyond the site which was lower than than the cellar we were working in. I've seen photographs of the old coal mine under Telephone House (Cambridge St was Coal Pit Lane, once). I can believe it's there, I've seen proof. I've seen nothing to convince me a two mile long tunnel goes from Pond St. to the Manor. Show me evidence & I'll gladly agree you are right.

I don't know everything, I don't believe everything. I come to conclusions after reviewing the facts &.logic tells me that 2 mile long mediaeval tunnels (not short lengths) dug without anyone knowing, are more likely to be born out of old wives' tales than substance. And, by the way, there's no Father Christmas, either.

It is going back a bit, but the part I uncovered was a good four foot or more, as you can imagine they wanted as little as possible uncovering, and very carefully, had it been a part of the sewage system we'd have all been up to the neck in it.:hihi:

Oh yeah, a sewer that size and that depth in the city would have massive pressure.

So what bit did you see, the top or the side and was it Red Brick.

As to the tunnel from the Queens head up to the Keep at Manor Castle that one still existed up to the early 80's although I suspect that the Sky Edge development might have cut through it as it was very close to the surface at that point and had been cut into by mine workings of the old Nunnery Pitt in the period between the wars.

Is there documentary evidence of this tunnel ? Where can I see it ?

EARTHQUAKE IN SHEFFIELD WHILE MARY WAS A PRISONER AT THE ENGLISH CASTLE IN 1574

In a letter to Queen Elizabeth, the Earl of Shrewsbury told of an earthquake. "He mentions that the walls of his old castle had been shaken by an earthquake. Two or three shocks were felt in this island in the reign of Elizabeth. The apartments occupied by the Queen of Scots were those most shaken by it; and she was much alarmed. 'My lady where thee hath bene often brutes of this lades' escape from me; the xxvi of febrary last there cam an earthequake, whyche so sunke chefely hur chambar, as I doubted more hur faleng than hur goinge, she was so afrede; but God be thanked, she is forth cumying; and grante it may be a forwarnyng unto hur.'" *
(History of Sheffield, 1869, J.A. Hunter, p.92)


* TRANSLATION: "My lady where you have been often concerned of this lady's escape from me, the 24th of february last there came an earthquake, which so sunk chiefly her chamber, as I worried more about her falling than her escaping, she was so afraid; but God be thanked, she is alright; and grant it may be a forewarning to her."

Is there documentary evidence of this tunnel ? Where can I see it ?

There is Greybeard but I don't do the same job as I did some years ago and I don't know how to lay hands on it.

http://travel.ciao.co.uk/The_Old_Queens_Head_Sheffield__Review_5568201

During this period she spent much of her time imprisoned in Sheffield Castle but whilst she was there her supporters plotted her escape. This escape culminated in the building of a secret underground tunnel which was to eventually connect Sheffield Castle with Manor Castle (a couple of miles away). This tunnel passed directly beneath the "The hawle in the pondes" and there was a secret passage into this tunnel from inside the building which still exists there today.

In 1583 Mary escaped from Sheffield Castle with her supporters and initially took refuge in the "The hawle in the pondes" before escaping further down the tunnel to Manor Castle where she found her freedom.

http://travel.ciao.co.uk/The_Old_Queens_Head_Sheffield__Review_5568201

In 1583 Mary escaped from Sheffield Castle with her supporters and initially took refuge in the "The hawle in the pondes" before escaping further down the tunnel to Manor Castle where she found her freedom.

Mary did indeed leave Sheffield for a few weeks in 1583, but it was to stay at the Earl of Shrewsbury's manor house at Worksop; under guard and closely watched, probably to allow her a change of scene and the tedium of her life in Sheffield.

At that time she was normally resident in Manor Lodge and hadn't lived at Sheffield Castle for some years.

It seems certain that the several works on Mary's captivity in Sheffield would have mentioned an 'escape' had there been one. Shrewsbury would have been severely punished by Elizabeth and possibly tried for treason if Mary had escaped from his custody.

I can't say as I know Greybeard, all I can do is posts what's 'out there' not being around at the time.

I don't however think that the correspondence is fictitious and it would seam more likely that the floor falling out of Marys room would more likely be due to underground workings collapsing.

Wolfstalin did the tunnel to manor lodge go under the river as suggested or was there some sort of concealed entrance on the river bank.
Also retep tells us there was a some sort of tunnel or pipe uncovered while the digging of ponds forge now given the nature of the site and the well known history of it why wasnt there some sort of archeological team overlooking the dig.

Oh yeah, a sewer that size and that depth in the city would have massive pressure.

So what bit did you see, the top or the side and was it Red Brick.

As I said not a lot was uncovered but you could see the shape and it was rounded as in a pipe of some sort, think it was more a case of it was on the edge of their measurements so they could get round it, so it was left alone.

I can't say as I know Greybeard, all I can do is posts what's 'out there' not being around at the time.

I don't however think that the correspondence is fictitious and it would seam more likely that the floor falling out of Marys room would more likely be due to underground workings collapsing.

A lot of 'what's out there' on the internet is twaddle. Why Mary's escape committee should dig a tunnel from Sheffield castle to Manor 'Castle' is a little puzzling, given that the Manor 'Castle' was Shrewsbury's manor house in Sheffield Park. In fact it wasn't a castle, but just a country house and Mary apparently stayed there on several occasions.

It' a bit like digging a tunnel from the frying-pan into the fire.

No plans survive of Sheffield castle and there is no record AFAIK of where Mary's apartments were, but the accomodation is generally believed to have been in the north-west corner - overlooking Lady's Bridge and far away from the "The hawle in the pondes".

I don't question the reported earthquake, but the idea that Mary fell into her own escape tunnel is a little hard to swallow :)

I dug out part of Ponds Forge with a JCB and hit a very large pipe shaped structure, the engineer didn't know it was there and they worked around it as it was in the very end of the pool area, not having tunnels in mind, thought it may have been part of the city sewage system.

It probably was, or a culverted goit. A lot of the old water channels in the Ponds area were culverted with arched brick in the 19th. century to allow building over them. As happened in fact with the Porter and the Sheaf.

I don't think brick came into use in this area until about 1700 when the first house of brick was built near Norfolk Row - at the time everybody expected it would fall down. It seems unlikely that any tunnels built of brick would be from before this time.

I dug out part of Ponds Forge with a JCB and hit a very large pipe shaped structure, the engineer didn't know it was there and they worked around it as it was in the very end of the pool area, not having tunnels in mind, thought it may have been part of the city sewage system.

Retep,you're a marvel! Almost unique on this thread! You are someone who's actually seen something, and something that will have been recorded for posterity in the site engineer's records, that's great!

I hadn't seen Greybeard's logical conclusions about what you'd dug up before I started delving into some old maps of the Ponds Forge area.... the names I turned up should have given a clue. There's Pond Street, Ponds Forge, Wheel Hill, River Lane, Sheaf Island Works, etc. It all tells that there is, or was, water there in great quantity.

On the layout of the early 1900s, the majority of the River Sheaf was culverted, but it did surface briefly, on the town side of the road and railway, where there was a weir. You'll probably know that weirs were formed locally to make a high point in the water flow which could be tapped off to fill a dam beside a water wheel. There are dozens of examples around Shef..... Rivelin & Loxley Valleys, Wiremill Dam etc. There was one on Pond Street, too, it was called Ponds Dam, it would have worked a wheel on Wheel Hill. The dam was located under what are the swimming baths now; it was about 200 ft from Commercial St. and I guess this was where you were digging. Having splashed over the wheel, the water had to be returned to the river. In this case, it was in an underground culvert, the tail goit to which Greybeard refers. He has come to the conclusion that this is what you dug up, I agree with him after examining the data. It's a tunnel alright, but a tunnel which carries water & not people, it's a culvert, in fact.

And, at the bottom of the hill, below the town, there'd have been lots of other water courses, too, all directing surface water & other waste into the Sheaf. Some would be small, others might be big enough to appear to be minor tunnels. There was probably one from the Queen's Head when, in earlier times, it was the laundry for the castle & dependent on water for that trade.

If you'd hit anything of archaeological importance, you can bet your life work would have been halted...... there are clauses in the building contracts which demand such finds are reported to the proper authorities. So it was a drain, not a back entrance into the castle Ok?

posted by cartav
If you'd hit anything of archaeological importance, you can bet your life work would have been halted......

---------------------------------------------
This is Sheffield were talking of here, with a council which seems intent on destroying most of Sheffield's history.

cartav, - you can see all the water in the area on this map of 1823.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Taidi/Ponds.jpg

There is a long goit running from Bamforth dam into the dam in Ponds Forge. There was also another dam near the bottom of Pond Well Hill that has been built over on this map but is shown on Fairbank's 1795 map which was supplied from a goit running from a weir on the Sheaf.

The tail goit from the wheel at Ponds Forge was already mostly underground when this map was surveyed but the far end of it is visible entering the Sheaf just before Sheaf bridge.

The old Queens Head (Hall in the Ponds) is opposite the entrance to Ponds forge on Pond Well Hill - now Pond Hill.

It can be seen just how far this is from the accomodation in Sheffield Castle, which was in the angle formed by Castle Hill and Waingate on this map.

Wolfstalin did the tunnel to manor lodge go under the river as suggested or was there some sort of concealed entrance on the river bank.
Also retep tells us there was a some sort of tunnel or pipe uncovered while the digging of ponds forge now given the nature of the site and the well known history of it why wasnt there some sort of archeological team overlooking the dig.

The one that went across to Manor Lodge is the one she is said to have escaped through and had no openings so must have gone under the river, but since the land is clay they would have been OK with that.

The one that went up to the Keep on Manor Lane I don't really know much about other than anecdotal evidence of miners who were said to have breached it in 1923, but the hub was the Old Queens Head pub. It seems that she wasn't kept solely in one place when she was a prisoner in Sheffield and they rotated her through different buildings.

You might try to contact the present owners of the Lodge, they used to run a tour once a year taking people into the tunnel and a bit of a history talk, it was running up till just a few years ago so might still if you care to give it a try.

As I said not a lot was uncovered but you could see the shape and it was rounded as in a pipe of some sort, think it was more a case of it was on the edge of their measurements so they could get round it, so it was left alone.

I think if it was rounded more than 90 degrees it was probably an old drain or sewer pipe and not the tunnel in question.

Did anyone put a stethoscope to it to see if it had anything running through it?

Wolfstalin did the tunnel to manor lodge go under the river as suggested or was there some sort of concealed entrance on the river bank.
Also retep tells us there was a some sort of tunnel or pipe uncovered while the digging of ponds forge now given the nature of the site and the well known history of it why wasnt there some sort of archeological team overlooking the dig.

I'm a builder as well and can tell you that if I found something strange that could cost me big time I might just cover it up and tell later when my contract was up and paid for.

.. and of course the geography and geology is all wrong for there to be a 'Castle / Manor Lodge tunnel'.

And equally practically, how or why would anyone build an 'escape tunnel' for MQoS without detection? She was a political prisoner kept in luxury, not the inhabitant of some fetid gaol. There were much easier ways to spring her when she half her days hunting and riding up on Lodge Moor.


Tunnels = drains, goits, culverts, foundations, basements, cellars, shafts, adits, bell pits, drifts... but not secret tunnels ;)

I think if it was rounded more than 90 degrees it was probably an old drain or sewer pipe and not the tunnel in question.

Did anyone put a stethoscope to it to see if it had anything running through it?


Apart from the fact it was in the way no one had any interest in it, my thoughts at the time were, it was probably a part of the main sewage system, but strange no one knew of it on the plans.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Taidi/Ponds.jpg

There was also another dam near the bottom of Pond Well Hill that has been built over on this map but is shown on Fairbank's 1795 map which was supplied from a goit running from a weir on the Sheaf.




If you dont mind me asking, where do you come across these really old maps? I have a few old ordanance survey maps i bought from W H Smiths, but they only go back to 1905. I would love to look at some of the really older maps.

Just bookmarking this thread as i find it fascinating.
Out of curiosity and sorry if it's been mentioned, how do you go about seeing underneath Castle Market(if you can) and are there any pictures?

If you dont mind me asking, where do you come across these really old maps? I have a few old ordanance survey maps i bought from W H Smiths, but they only go back to 1905. I would love to look at some of the really older maps.

Most of the old maps can be seen in the Local Studies Library and Sheffield Archives on Shoreham street...as follows -

1795 - Fairbank's map of Sheffield Parish
1818 - Fairbank's map of Sheffield Parish updated and with more detail
1823 - John Leather's plan of Sheffield
1832 - J. Tayler's Map of Sheffield
1832 - Robert Kearsley Dawson's map of Sheffield Parish
1835 - Robert Creighton's map of Sheffield Parish
1853 - First OS map of Sheffield
1868 - Black's plan of Sheffield [from Black's Tourist Guide to Yorkshire 1868]
1896? - Second OS map of Sheffield
1903-5 - revised edition of the 2nd. OS survey

There are also some 18th. century plans of Sheffield town -

1736 - Gosling's plan of Sheffield town
1771 - Fairbank' plan of Sheffield town [revised 1775 ?]
There is also a plan of ca. 1780 based on Fairbanks map showing the properties of the the Town Trustees and the Church Burgesses.

I'd be grateful to learn of any others.

this is a very interesting thread and one i return to every day,being curious i found this
http://jimsdesk.co.uk/history.html

under seige of sheffield castle it says the parlimentary general set local miners to work digging a tunnel to drain the moat,they came upon solid rock and could not continue

now if these lads couldnt get through solid rock,even when doing it openly i doubt any plotters would have managed any better doing it secretly,i would have liked to have seen a tunnel ,but it seems it wasnt possible due to the bedrock on which the castle once stood on

Out of curiosity and sorry if it's been mentioned, how do you go about seeing underneath Castle Market(if you can) and are there any pictures?

This site is interesting...

http://www.sheffieldmarkets.co.uk/sheffield-market-history.php

Castle Markets security have the keys to the door down to the remaining ruins. Whether they still take peolpe down there I'm not sure, - you could try phoning them.

Hopefully when the Castle Markets are demolished there will be the opportunity for a comprehensive archaeological investigation of what remains of the Sheffield Castle...and what was there before the Norman castles were built.

Thanks for that. According to their site they do tours on a Thurs and Sat so have emailed them.
Just out of interest are there any photographs of the castle in existance or was it demolished before the existance of cameras? I've seen the artist impressions.

Make sure they know you're coming - they have to do a check for harmful gases before they let you down there. There's not a lot of it to see, but it's definitely worth seeing in my opinion. Apparently, you can also see part of the wooden castle through a little 'window' in the floor, but the glass was so mucky we couldn't see anything.

I have some photos I took of the castle remains when I went down about a year or so ago, if you'd like me to upload them?

Ooo yes please Jen :)

I only took 3, because like I said, there's not exactly much of it to see. But here you go :)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2326/2299639635_b6f1446e21_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2126/2300443218_2d7a5ca5e4_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3070/2299641421_b59d66601b_b.jpg (some carved masonry)

this is a very interesting thread and one i return to every day,being curious i found this
http://jimsdesk.co.uk/history.html

under seige of sheffield castle it says the parlimentary general set local miners to work digging a tunnel to drain the moat,they came upon solid rock and could not continue

now if these lads couldnt get through solid rock,even when doing it openly i doubt any plotters would have managed any better doing it secretly,i would have liked to have seen a tunnel ,but it seems it wasnt possible due to the bedrock on which the castle once stood on

Geology is not uniform.

Make sure they know you're coming - they have to do a check for harmful gases before they let you down there. There's not a lot of it to see, but it's definitely worth seeing in my opinion. Apparently, you can also see part of the wooden castle through a little 'window' in the floor, but the glass was so mucky we couldn't see anything.

I have some photos I took of the castle remains when I went down about a year or so ago, if you'd like me to upload them?

I think that would be very useful Jen.

I think that would be very useful Jen.

Agreed, I'd love to see the photos, too, please!

Apart from the fact it was in the way no one had any interest in it, my thoughts at the time were, it was probably a part of the main sewage system, but strange no one knew of it on the plans.

Fair enough, something similar happened to us in Portland, unfortunately I was in San Fran at the time and our guys dumped a 100 yard of concrete on it before I could have a gander.

Two years later another builder on the next lot found the same structure and broke into it, there were 14 miles of tunnels previously undiscovered down there that have since been on TV about a hundred times, ho hum.

Just out of interest are there any photographs of the castle in existance or was it demolished before the existance of cameras? I've seen the artist impressions.

It was demolished in 1648....not sure when cameras were invented ;):D

I think that would be very useful Jen.

I uploaded them, they're on the page before :)

I'm a builder as well and can tell you that if I found something strange that could cost me big time I might just cover it up and tell later when my contract was up and paid for.

Sounds as though you'd be more at home in Texas with the other cowboys rather than San Fran! Ignore the contract docs. at your own peril, mate!

And when are you going to believe that tunnels and Mary Q of S. are all baloney? You do go on!

I uploaded them, they're on the page before :)

Thanks.....

If anyones interested.

http://www.oregon.com/trips/pdx_shanghai.cfm

after reading this very interesting thread i note some posters have said tunnels wouldnt exist or would be a security risk etc, i found this article today relating to old tunnels under glastonbury abbey dating from the 14 00's http://www.isleofavalon.co.uk/history/tunnels.html

there seems to be documented proof of their existance,so it could be possible that there once were tunnels in the sheffield area,and its around the same period,not particularly under the sheffield castle due to the bedrock,but around certain houses and abby's, its still possible that there could have been a tunnel or two

this is a very interesting thread and one i return to every day,being curious i found this
http://jimsdesk.co.uk/history.html

under seige of sheffield castle it says the parlimentary general set local miners to work digging a tunnel to drain the moat,they came upon solid rock and could not continue

now if these lads couldnt get through solid rock,even when doing it openly i doubt any plotters would have managed any better doing it secretly,i would have liked to have seen a tunnel ,but it seems it wasnt possible due to the bedrock on which the castle once stood on

The fault I find with this one is where were they thinking of draining the water to, as the moat would presumably have been formed from the river, and can you imagine being the bloke who broke through the tunnel, he'd have been fired up to the cathedral :D

I'm not sure about the wisdom of posting this - it will likely serve only to comfort the credulous and encourage the myth-mongers. I was sure I'd seen it somewhere and after spending most of Sunday rummaging through boxes in the attic I finally found it.

The text below is a footnote on page 146 of J.D Leader's book, Mary Queen of Scots In Captivity, published in 1880 by Leader & Sons of Sheffield.

In carrying out the works connected with the main drainage of Sheffield, it was found necessary to drive a drift right through the Castle Hill. The tunnel was at a considerable depth below the present level, being 18 ft. 6 in. below Waingate, and probably 40 ft. below Messrs. C. Chambers & Co.'s yard. It passed under the river Sheaf a little above the weir, at the back of the Alexandra Music Hall, and went obliquely across Castle hill to the end of Bridge street. Having tunnelled under the river, the workmen bored through a loose alluvial deposit, in which were found numbers of bones, the antlers of deer, and other remains.

Arrived at the Castle Hill, they came upon the rock, a fine grained bluish stone, very hard to work, and in appearance resembling the Handsworth stone. Through this the sewer was made by blasting, and to carry on the works two shafts were sunk, one in Messrs. Chambers' yard and another near to Waingate. In the first shaft a discovery was made which vindicates the authority of tradition against the incredulity of modern learning. Mr. Hunter mentions, only to dismiss as a fable, the old story of a subterranean communication between the Castle and the Manor. The excavators, in sinking on Castle hill, cut across a subterranean passage excavated out of the solid rock, and running in the direction of the Market Hall, but whether it went to the Manor we cannot tell.

It was partially obstructed with debris, but was still some four feet in height, and perfect as to its roof. It was never explored. The workmen and contractors had no time to be curious, and though an exploration was often talked of, it was never made; and when the shaft was finally filled up, a rubble wall was built across the passage to prevent the loose rock falling into it, and it was once more left to damp and darkness. In sinking the second shaft, at a depth of about 20 feet, a wall was encountered, and such portions of it as came in the line of operations were removed. An intelligent person, who watched the proceedings with much interest, says three walls were met with. The first was 12 feet in thickness, and may be assumed to have been an outer one. The next was 4 feet, and the third 3 feet thick. Judging from the plinth stones, the original level of the ground appears to have been about 20 feet below the present surface, and sloped from the wall towards the river. My informant is of opinion that the Castle building was of large nibble with dressed quoins. The rubble, he thought, had come from the Soaphouse quarry. The dressed stone differs from that of any quarry now worked, but bears the nearest resemblance to the stone got out during the building of Mr. Reynolds' mortar mill, in Trippet lane.



Leader offers no source for his information and doesn't even put a date to the sewer excavations, which for a Fellow of the Society Antiquaries is a little careless. For all anybody now knows it could just be a private joke between him and some of his subscribers.

There should be a copy of the book in the Local Studies Library. My copy of the book is without its covers and quite battered but cost just a few shillings in a jumble sale many years ago, which is why it lives in the attic rather than on my bookshelf.

there is one from edmund rd old army barraks formerly clark and ptns leading to the town centre,,i worked there,,semi bricked up but u can see it

there is one from edmund rd old army barraks formerly clark and ptns leading to the town centre,,i worked there,,semi bricked up but u can see it

Is that the Somme Barracks?

dunno,,the old army barraks on edmund rd/lancing rd

Interesting stuff, Greybeard, all that detail of sewer excavations.... but before the keen supporters of the two-mile tunnel theory get too cocky and take comfort from it, let's
consider further............

It would be a foolish or a very knowledgeable contributor who would dispute the findings of such noted antiquarians as Hunter & Leader, or even believe, totally, everything that was printed. It is noted that Hunter is quoted as de-bunking the 2-mile theory, & Leader says it cannot be assumed that the tunnel broken into by accident goes anywhere near the Manor. That we can accept. Tunnels there maybe, tunnels there ARE according to the sewer diggers' findings, but unless the whole 2 mile length can be explored there must be doubt that it ever existed. And was that particular tunnel going into the castle, or coming out? If the two are connected, I reckon it's either a short length of escape passage in case of siege or, maybe, part of the failed attempt to mine under the walls.

I'll make reference myself........ Anthony Burton, who has written some books on ancient industrial practices, and did some series on TV in the 1980's, has penned a bit on excavations at Grimes Graves, in Norfolk which are stone age, & go back around 5000 years. They go down 35 ft. and were dug with deer antler picks & animal shoulder blades, he says. Very impressive, but not quite like digging through the hard rock subsoil around Sheff. Anyone who has dug a slit trench or gunpit in the Stan ford PTA, and army training area close by Grimes Graves will know the stuff there is chalk, a wee bit softer, but it's still commendable. They were digging for flint deposits, and Burton says the gallerys at the bottom of the shafts only extended for 4 yards. Why? Excessive spoil to get rid of. Because of the limited width (like a passage) he says there'd be one digging & four muck shifting. For just 4 yards, mind you..... but it's a theory, don't believe it just because it's in print.

I've raised the question of where the spoil went in our tunnels before. And not only spoil, what about lighting, where are the vent shafts for 2-milers? Just imagine the conversation....... "We've done us stint for today, old lad. Just nip back t'tentrance, Thomas, and gerrus a bucket for't muck. Tha'd best bring a couple of candles an' all. This lot we brought wi'ius is damn near spent. An' I know it's reight 'ot down 'ere.... Think on! I'm gaggin' an' all, so don't hang about in't Queen's 'ead. We'll 'ave a couple when we've finished down 'ere".

Tunnels? Certainly! 2-milers? No way!

The Norfolk Barracks were at Edmund Road, they were for the Royal Artillery. Somme Barracks are on West Street & were built & occupied, until recently, by Royal Engineers.
They were both erected after the Haldane reforms around the turn of the 19th century. Any association with earlier underground activity is unlikely.

Tunnels? Certainly! 2-milers? No way!

Have to agree :)

The tunnel found was heading towards the market hall - this would be the Norfolk Hall market that stood betwen Exchange street and Dixon lane. I suspect it may have been a way to get water into the castle from the moat on the west side.

We don't know for certain how this moat was filled. The 1927-30 survey found the bottom of it to be 33 feet below the surface of Exchange street and it was possibly supplied via a weir and sluice on the Sheaf. Perhaps the same weir that later supplied water to the Simon Wheel in Castle orchards, which is the weir that Leader mentions.

The relationship of weir to the castle is clear on this map

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Taidi/Ponds.jpg

I'll try to find the time to look at the excvation report on Saturday.

i worked in the bankers draft pub in sheffield, the weatherspoons pub near primark, the building was huge, and definately had tunnels underneath it..on my induction i was taken down into the 'dungeon' area below ground level where there is the entrance to a very long tunnel, some stables, and a huge old lift shaft which actually plumeted deeper to a floor below!.when the building was previously a bank they used the tunnels to transport goods safely under the city. my colleague said she and a friend walked down the tunnel, it was so long that after a while they could no longer see the light behind them from where they had come, and could see no sign of the tunnel ending ahead of them..so they turned back!
i really wanted to explore the tunnels, well i think every1 there did!
these tunnels could have been built with the castle, and adopted years later to serve a different purpose.

No photos = no proof.

The bankers draft is in hartshead square, where there are pictures of the tunnels on picturesheffield and goldenfleece has attested to some being in the dove and rainbow too...

Old banks do have cavernous basements (well at least the old midland bank on Church street does) but that doesn't neccesarily mean it's tunnels.

I know of a bloke on Millhouses lane who had his garden collapse many years ago. It turned out that there was an underground tunnel but no one was about to risk finding where it went.

Also bodies ended up in the cellars of the Acorn Public house on Shalesmore (just about next to the Ship). They had washed along tunnels from the river during the great flood...hence the rumours that club 60 was haunted.

I know this has been mentioned before but do they actually exist and does anyone know where they are

There's already a long running thread about tunnels under Sheffield (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=13360&highlight=tunnels)on the forum,
so it's not very wise to have started another.
Is it
:confused:

Mod note: Threads merged

Hiya, I know the thread is regarding Sheffield, but in Liverpool one man 200 years ago had built loads of tunnels ,And if that is your thing you can go and have a look around some of them check this link.( I have been its worth a look )
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2342183.stm

I lived in nottingham for a few years , under part of the city centre there is another town built into the sandstone , a special trip was organised for us , i can honestly say i have never seen something so amazing

I lived in nottingham for a few years , under part of the city centre there is another town built into the sandstone , a special trip was organised for us , i can honestly say i have never seen something so amazing

You mean the tunnels under the castle. I know one of the guides.

I lived in nottingham for a few years , under part of the city centre there is another town built into the sandstone , a special trip was organised for us , i can honestly say i have never seen something so amazing

Park Tunnel, perchance?

http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/whatnall1928/images/park_tunnel.jpg

interesting snippet from todays star newspaper

http://www.thestar.co.uk/headlines/Secret-tunnels-found-beneath-city.4227308.jp

interesting snippet from todays star newspaper

http://www.thestar.co.uk/headlines/Secret-tunnels-found-beneath-city.4227308.jp

Shush shush, they don't exist:suspect:

Shush shush, they don't exist:suspect:oops.sorry...;)

There is a world of difference between a vaulted cellar underneath a Victorian fire station and an early medieval tunnel hewn out of bed rock running for miles under rivers up hill and down dale to connect a house to a pub. ;)

I've heard rumours of tunnels leading from the Ponderosa under Crookes Valley Road to the park. Reputedly, they were used to store barrage balloons in WW1.

Anybody have any further knowledge of these?

if you go into crookes valley park from the main road entrance at mushroom lane bottom and walk down to the bowling green, hidden in the trees is a large concrete disc with a grating in the centre, i've looked down it and it appears quite deep, it maybe connected to the sewer system or something to do with the tunnels you speak of or alternatively it may be a connection to both, anyone from the parks department on here that may be able to shed some light?.

I also have read the article in the Star. These Sheffield tunnels are even more mysteriously interesting now! Would love to see them.

Park Tunnel, perchance?

http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/whatnall1928/images/park_tunnel.jpg

Nope , they are acctually under the Bridalsmithgate shopping area , well and truly mind blowing

if you go into crookes valley park from the main road entrance at mushroom lane bottom and walk down to the bowling green, hidden in the trees is a large concrete disc with a grating in the centre, i've looked down it and it appears quite deep, it maybe connected to the sewer system or something to do with the tunnels you speak of or alternatively it may be a connection to both, anyone from the parks department on here that may be able to shed some light?. i thought that was the entrance to the inspection tunnel for the dam wall..

That's far too dull depoix :D

That's far too dull depoix :Dstop lurkin ya bugger !!!!..:hihi::hihi:

I am sure I was told of a tunnel that ran from the cellar of what used to be the Royal Hotel on the corner of London Road and Abbeydale Road cant remember where it was supposed to run to though lol

Something intresting I came across. http://www.picturesheffield.com/cgi-bin/picturesheffield.pl?_cgifunction=form&_layout=picturesheffield&keyval=sheff.refno=s09545

Initials and date cut deep into the rock walls of an old tunnel, discovered by workmen in 1935, below the offices of The Star newspaper at Hartshead. Explored by Frank Brindley who concluded that it was the missing tunnel to Sheffield Castle.

Initials and date cut deep into the rock walls of an old tunnel, discovered by workmen in 1935, below the offices of The Star newspaper at Hartshead. Explored by Frank Brindley who concluded that it was the missing tunnel to Sheffield Castle.As the link says.:confused:

< Founder, Frederick James Brindley

Founded in 1864 this company became specialists in the manufacture of high quality forgings. Over the years Brindley's have moved on, manufacturing Steel Grinding Balls for the Mining Industry and Wrought Iron Components for the Fabricating Industry.

Under the leadership of the late Frederick James Brindley this reputation for quality grew. A fine craftsman himself, he was also the solver of many forging problems.

One such problem arose at the time when the ball and tube mill was being developed for the grinding and pulverising of cement, mineral ores, etc. This problem was to forge a steel ball accurately under a power hammer to give all the advantages of a fully upset forging at a price competitive with a casting or stamping.

With the aid of his sons the problem was solved and even today, with all their modern equipment and controls the same basic method is used. Brindley's are still the only Ball Forge in the UK to 'hand forge' Steel Balls up to 150 mm diameter, and more recently Wrought Iron Components.

After the death of F. J. Brindley in 1929 the business was carried on by the sons mentioned above and included, as General Manager, the late Mr. Frank H. Brindley who was also so well known as a Geologist and Photographer of the City's Telegraph and Independent newspapers.

Centenary Year was celebrated by a move to new and larger premises. Output was increased threefold and is still rising. Thousands of tons are shipped to all parts of the world.

The company is still a family concern and the Board of Directors today consists of members of the third and fourth generation. Third generation directors of the Company are Mr. Keith G. Brindley (Chairman) Mr. James L. Brindley (Managing Director ) Mr. Ronald V. Brindley and the fourth generation Mr. Alan J. Brindley (Works Director and Company Secretary), Mr James W. Brindley (Director).


If you have any suggestions or comments please email us at:
sales@brindley-steel-forging.co.uk.
Central Hammer Works
Acres Hill Lane
Darnall
Tel No : +44 (0)114 2449663
Fax :+44 (0)114 2435112
Email :sales@brindley-steel-forging.co.uk
www.brindley-steel-forging.co.uk

My guess is the family would have retained info on this tunnel and its exploration.

Beauchief abbey and surrounding golf course have a series of tunnels used by monks way back in the day.

Used by monks for what?

i think escape routes mate, its not really my area of knowledge, all i can remember is storys of my dad falling down one as a kid, and they used to go up and explore it with tobacco tin torches, some where on the golf course, but 'apparently' the abbey covered a very large area and you can still find remains of this if you follow the train track through the woods towards totley.

hi all ive just had a read of all 28 page,s of this topic it sounds very intresting

What about Conisburgh Tunnel, has anyone heard of it or know where they are

Beauchief Abbey derived income from small-scale coal & iron-ore mining & quarrying, all expanded after the Reformation, & later on there were several brick-yards round Beauchief & Bradway: plenty of holes & tunnels, without romantic tales of secret passages.
Geoffrey.

try here for any info on all tunnels in this country if these guys know they will tell you

http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/index.php

i worked in the bankers draft pub in sheffield, the weatherspoons pub near primark, the building was huge, and definately had tunnels underneath it..on my induction i was taken down into the 'dungeon' area below ground level where there is the entrance to a very long tunnel, some stables, and a huge old lift shaft which actually plumeted deeper to a floor below!.when the building was previously a bank they used the tunnels to transport goods safely under the city. my colleague said she and a friend walked down the tunnel, it was so long that after a while they could no longer see the light behind them from where they had come, and could see no sign of the tunnel ending ahead of them..so they turned back!
i really wanted to explore the tunnels, well i think every1 there did!
these tunnels could have been built with the castle, and adopted years later to serve a different purpose.

Ok many years ago i worked in the Lazer Quest that was the first occupants after the bank moved out, during the training period we got to explore all around the bank and the vaults as it was still being converted at the time, indeed the builders were living on site on the upper floors of what i believe were the offices that were once occupied by Hallam F.M. anyways i digress, so down in the vaults of the bank we were directed to what were the escape routes in case of fire/emergency, as these were below ground level we were pointed to a series of "tunnel" entrances, now these tunnels actually would lead (after say 50 yards) to the old hole in the road.

from what we were told there were other tunnels that lead to the hole in the road from other sites, now i dont know if there remains any of these tunnels after they filled in the hole in the road, i often thought in retrospect if any tunnels led to the old marples hotel.

Now construction of tunnels, now this was nearly twenty years ago now but from memory they appeared to be VERY OLD brickwork, red brick.

Hopes that this is a help!

Lazer quest and Radio Hallam were in two completely different buildings. They are on opposite sides of the alleyway by Pizza Hut that leads to the Dove and Rainbow and the old Quaker Meeting House, on Hartshead.

Lazer quest and Radio Hallam were in two completely different buildings. They are on opposite sides of the alleyway by Pizza Hut that leads to the Dove and Rainbow and the old Quaker Meeting House, on Hartshead.

Jeez louise, i only said that i thought so, no need to break my balls! I was only trying to be helpfull!

Tunnels of old red brick are more than likely the remains of the 19th century sewage system. A big one - about five feet high by four feet wide was exposed when they were first digging out the 'Hole in the Road', and another smaller one emerged from under the bank on the corner.

Tunnels of old red brick are more than likely the remains of the 19th century sewage system. A big one - about five feet high by four feet wide was exposed when they were first digging out the 'Hole in the Road', and another smaller one emerged from under the bank on the corner.interesting, but would the bank use old sewage tunnels as corridors i wonder? if tony-santos has been inside them they must have served the purpose he says they were for,although,i do remember hearing about the sewage tunnels when,as you say,excavations were made to start the hole in the road, very puzzling

Jeez louise, i only said that i thought so, no need to break my balls! I was only trying to be helpfull!

me? a ball breaker? since when?

As i said i dont know if the bank used them, they were about 6/7 foot in height, like i said we were only shown them and taken into them the once.

When you booked in to play you were taken into the basement where you were given a briefing and had your packs turned on, you got to run around the old bank vaults themselves, thinking about it now there was one that was close to the front, near the hole in the rd and then there was another one (that we were shown but never taken into) to the rear at the right, close to under where the little square is with the pub, like i said this was when i was but a teen, working on memory here! :)

Also with regard to tunnels in Sheff as a whole dont you think that maybe the powers that be want to keep this kind of stuff (as in locations and what not) covered up?! Not only on safety but on security grounds as well! Think of this disruption/damage that could be caused!

interesting, but would the bank use old sewage tunnels as corridors i wonder?

Most likely used as a foundation as a typical Victorian jerry building cost cutting measure.

I've been in the ones in the old Court House, near Castle Market. Well, like many people on this thread, I've been about five metres down it, then decided that (ahem) there were many more pressing issues to attend to and I'd come back when I had more time. Not that I was scared or anything, you understand. So for all I know, it could have ended in a big sign saying 'get back to work', but there was a slight draft and an echo, so it seemed like a tunnel to me.

The tunnel was near the old cells, at the bottom of a flight of steps and was blocked off by a sheet of board. It had a red brick interior, clearly not attended to in any way for at least a hundred years. There were no doors leading off; it was exactly like the corridors in the court buildings in terms of construction (same size bricks, arched roof etc), apart from the lack of paint/whitewash. Next to the entrance was a room containing records of financial court cases from the 1890s, which hadn't been looked at since they were shelved there...

my dad was the celler man at the manor castle pub there was a tunnel in the celler
leading down to the old queens head in pond street .it was belived that mary queen of scotts used the tunnel to escape .my dad said one day he was going to go and take a walk in the tunnel but he never did . maybe some of you know him for he worked there for many years (little joe)

my dad was the celler man at the manor castle pub there was a tunnel in the celler
leading down to the old queens head in pond street .it was belived that mary queen of scotts used the tunnel to escape .my dad said one day he was going to go and take a walk in the tunnel but he never did . maybe some of you know him for he worked there for many years (little joe)

Erm, except Mary Queen of Scots didn't escape from Sheffield?

Erm, except Mary Queen of Scots didn't escape from Sheffield?:) she never came for another visit, :hihi:
was the manor castle pub actually built at that time ?

:) she never came for another visit, :hihi:
was the manor castle pub actually built at that time ?

Of course, why didn't any of us think of it? The tunnel was for her secret visits to the pub! Well done depoix, sorted at last:thumbsup:

I can confirm that there is at least one tunnel leading from the old Manor Lodge to Castle Market. This was open many years ago, quite possible the 60's where u could travel through, but was sealed due to safety issues.

If anyone is interested a new tunnel leading from the old West Bar Police Station to the Fire Station has been discovered, if i remember correctly people are currently petitioning (I dont know how to add yourself to it) to stop the new owner of the Fire Station from completely sealing it before its been investigated

Erm, except Mary Queen of Scots didn't escape from Sheffield?

trying to be funny never said that she escaped from there but it was a route and any what do you know . ive been down in the basement and seen the tunnel my self have you clever clogs .
check the archives .

[QUOTE=richmond111;3831554]trying to be funny never said that she escaped from there but it was a route [QUOTE=richmond111;3831554]

no, just stating a fact. Try reading you own post again, I could have sworn you said
it was belived that mary queen of scotts used the tunnel to escape

Which archives did you have in mind?

dear algy here are some facts on m q of scotts and the tunnels
in 1569 mary was sent to sheffield in the custody of george the 6th earl of shrewsbury . there she remained for 14 yrs under imprisonment in sheffield castle
her supporters plotted her escape by building a underground tunnel from sheffield castle to manor castle the tunnel passed from beneath the hawle in the pondes in 1583 mary escaped from sheffield castle with her supporters she tuck refuge in the hawle in the pondes before escaping further down the tunnel where she found freedom i think this means she did escape from sheffield .granted she was recaptured but it does mean she did escape from sheffield ..to find out where you read on go to this web site www.sheffield oldest pubs sheffield old queens head review

Richmond, that linky just takes me to a site about Florida and air flights.

As for a tunnel passing under the Old Queens Head it'd be a bit difficult with the slope of the hillside, and the fact of the rivers sheaf, porter and don having a confluence in the area.

It'd be hard to tunnel under the river (as pointed out by many of us, in many previous posts on this thread).

If MQoS supporters had achieved the greatest political coup of the 16th Century by means of the greatest engineering feat of the 16th Century we might have the odd document about it. There are none.

i was told as a youngster that there was a tunnel underneath the shakespear pub in heeley and old war relics were found.

hmmmmm
i keep peeking back at this thread as its interesting
BUT!!!!

its still all rumour and hearsay theres been NO PROOF as yet

Yes, where is the proof? If there are tunnels under the city then they will be documented somewhere officially. Unless someone can provide that evidence then I remain sceptical.

I expect that somebody will post a link to a grainy black and white photo from the 1930's with a few blokes crouched in a hole and a caption about tunnels underneath Hartshead. ;)

i can rememeber a tunnel where the gpo buildings now stand on maltravers road

It has been proven (photo evidence provided) that a tunnel does exist underneath the streets of Sheffield.....

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_DI5wzbZU4eE/R93AUTXmGJI/AAAAAAAAAVI/T-V1TzoYDZQ/RiverSheaf_049.jpg

.... of course, it is the one that the Sheaf flows through :roll:

i can rememeber a tunnel where the gpo buildings now stand on maltravers road

That area is riddled with old coal workings, some of them 400 years old.

There were reports of people striking coal when they were digging out for the Anderson shelters at the beginning of the war.

i used to go in a tunnel that went under beaver hill road (just below the end of the badger)
that was scary and it was only like 30 foot long lol
mind u i get claustophobic

It's not nearly as romantic as Mary Queen of Scots doing a midnight flit though ;)

Here's an explanation of coal seam outcrops (http://www.j31.co.uk/geology.htm) around Sheffield. It's easy to see how the seams are just below the surface, or actually outcropping around Sheffield. This is why the city is riddled with shallow drifts / adits (http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/DEPUTATE/MINRES/Districts/homepage/California/Underground/PA%20Mining%20History/DRIFT_MINE.jpg), and bell pits (http://www.haggerleases.co.uk/history_1/bell.jpg).

The idea of secret monastic escape tunnels soon fades when you consider the huge demand in Sheffield for furnace coal.

That area is riddled with old coal workings, some of them 400 years old.

There were reports of people striking coal when they were digging out for the Anderson shelters at the beginning of the war.
this tunnel was brick lined ive no idea what it was for

this tunnel was brick lined ive no idea what it was for

The GPO/BT Maltravers depot was built on the site of an old quarry, - perhaps there was a tramway in a tunnel to the brickworks over the hill.

The GPO/BT Maltravers depot was built on the site of an old quarry, - perhaps there was a tramway in a tunnel to the brickworks over the hill.
it makes you wonder .how would one go about finding this info

it makes you wonder .how would one go about finding this info

I've been searching for months and cannot find any reference to any at all, I have even spoke to someone in the archives at the town hall and they cannot find and reference to them.

it makes you wonder .how would one go about finding this info

Old maps can sometimes help, but in this case there's nothing to see on the OS map of 1905 except that there was a quarry there....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Taidi/Quarry.jpg

The Park Brickworks were behind the baths at the top of Duke street and possibly linked to Hyde Park quarry but we can't be sure the quarry on Maltravers road was used by the brickworks.

Can you identify from the map where you saw the tunnel entrance ? It may just have been a powder magazine dug into the back face of the quarry.

There is a tramway emerging from the south of the brickworks but I don't have the section of map that continues on.

At the rear of castle market in town loading bay area, there is a big blue door with a plaque stating it leads to the manor castle, its the loading bay which faces the parkway i seen it yeeears ogo im sure,,,

i don't like to carry on all these rumours but i have a few stories to add.

after reading the thread i spoke to my dad (from Barnsley) who said he used to play down the tunnels in barnsley. they were used to store barrage balloons but were abandoned when he went down them. he said they were full of gas masks and tin hats etc...he was quite sketchy on the details but said the tunnels were just open shafts in the middle of fields.

he is adamant there are tunnels of exactly the same nature in sheffield and says it was a well known fact in his day. the only reason he can think of it being a bit of a secret these days is the MOD.

i work at the bankers draft on castle gate and have been down into the foundations of the building (where the old stables were) and there is indeed bricked up tunnel entrances. i'm not suggesting people go down any tunnels, but it would be an excellent place to start if you were interested. ;)

as for the building on the outskirts of town that people think may be a nuclear base, he says that is a huge processing centre for all credit card transactions in the UK. he went in there for some "trivial things" years ago and says he has never been searched more. he said there were many levels of security and if you had even the slightest thing wrong with your documents you were arrested at gunpoint. the place i am referring to is on the left hand side of the road as you drive towards tankersely manor from the roundabout. it is easier to see in autumn when the leaves have fallen off the trees.

AND, on a tangent...he used to work testing fire alarms and had to work at a military base in suffolk temporarily. as it turns out this base is the UK's nuclear headquarters and he had two armed guards following him round all day...they even had to watch him go to the toilet (and i mean watch him). all doors were made from very thick steel and manually operated. he said he went into rooms that were bigger than any room he had ever seen and they had thousands of bunk beds in each room. that may be comforting to some, but he said if there was a nuclear attack there is no way in hell we would all get to the base in time. he also said there was a picture of the a US stealth fighter bomber on the wall with a caption written on it saying "we can see you". this was because the US airforce claimed they had made an aircraft undetectable on radar...and we felt it necessary to disprove this theory...haha.

I know this has been mentioned before but do they actually exist and does anyone know where they are
--------------------
sean30982, if you want any help on sheffield markets tunnels
and others around, i am leaving you 2 names to ring.
peter and john-- 0114/ 2736245, and any other person looking in on
thread. address--development, environment & leisure.
their office is upstairs in the markets.
p,s, i am not sure they take parties down them tunnels anymore,
i think there unsafe but check out. >> o.k. <<

I contacted them a while ago and they told me they wouldn't be taking anyone down for a while as they were damaged in the floods last year.

Cath x

Here we go again...
Those who do believe the tunnels are there can't (or won't) prove it, whilst those who don't believe just pour scorn over any suggestion that there may be.

We need proper pictures, evidence, not just hear say!

At the rear of castle market in town loading bay area, there is a big blue door with a plaque stating it leads to the manor castle, its the loading bay which faces the parkway i seen it yeeears ogo im sure,,,
-------------------- some,
sheffield markets now demolished and new hotels now built around
the site.
---------------
there are tunnels leading up to manor castle
some passages lead up to the old cockaynes arcade,
also pond hill pond street. and to old midland station<< railway>>
----------
they were 2 oak chairs-table-and 2 tumblers
a long sword 3ft long, seen in the tunnels,
passages to glossop road had old coal mines
in 1925 a mrs jenkins was to have seen an old man running
through 6 feet high tunnels.

theyl never find my secret lair muhuhahhahaha

if you go into crookes valley park from the main road entrance at mushroom lane bottom and walk down to the bowling green, hidden in the trees is a large concrete disc with a grating in the centre, i've looked down it and it appears quite deep, it maybe connected to the sewer system or something to do with the tunnels you speak of or alternatively it may be a connection to both, anyone from the parks department on here that may be able to shed some light?.

Oh this one definately exists, and that concrete disc is sort of the access. The actually tunnel runs off to the right under crookes valley road. Not sure what the 'disc' is actually used for, but it is just a straight down hole with tunnels running off. It could be connected to the water works in some way, since there are pipes in there, but the 'disc' is different from the tunnel which runs off it; a lot newer in places. I reckon it's about 40/50ft down the 'disc' and the tunnel off it runs for maybe 100metres and looks to be wartime. Not unlike some air raid shelters in the city - in terms of light fixtures and blast doors.

Nicknamed the Charlton Tunnel, i visited it earlier this year (please don't try and go down that hole near the bowling green, the drop will kill you, and every tunnel needs two entrances. The second entrance for this one is a manhole with Charlton Ironworks on it. It's halfway up / down the hill on the other side of crookes valley road, heading down towards the ponderosa. )

Pictures: http://www.urbx.info/wp-content/gallery/charltontunnel/

At the rear of castle market in town loading bay area, there is a big blue door with a plaque stating it leads to the manor castle, its the loading bay which faces the parkway i seen it yeeears ogo im sure,,,

If we're thinking of the same door, it leads down to a little room with the Sheffield Castle remains inside (is that what you meant? Or do you mean Manor Lodge?)

Oh this one definately exists, and that concrete disc is sort of the access. The actually tunnel runs off to the right under crookes valley road. Not sure what the 'disc' is actually used for, but it is just a straight down hole with tunnels running off. It could be connected to the water works in some way, since there are pipes in there, but the 'disc' is different from the tunnel which runs off it; a lot newer in places. I reckon it's about 40/50ft down the 'disc' and the tunnel off it runs for maybe 100metres and looks to be wartime. Not unlike some air raid shelters in the city - in terms of light fixtures and blast doors.

Nicknamed the Charlton Tunnel, i visited it earlier this year (please don't try and go down that hole near the bowling green, the drop will kill you, and every tunnel needs two entrances. The second entrance for this one is a manhole with Charlton Ironworks on it. It's halfway up / down the hill on the other side of crookes valley road, heading down towards the ponderosa. )

Pictures: http://www.urbx.info/wp-content/gallery/charltontunnel/

Back in the 50's, when I was a kid, the second entrance to this tuneel appeared onto a street (memeory fades but I think it was Bromley Street?). It was nearly always closed off with huge green gates, but I remember one time the gates were open and some men were working in there - all I can remember is seeing this long tunnel, which at 5 or 6 years old looked like the chasm from hell. The street was subsequently earthed over - hence the Charlton Ironworks manhole cover. I think this tunnel is mentioned in more detail on the Sheffield History site - apparantly it was used in WW2 to store barrage balloons etc.

The vertical shaft at other end in the park, used to be protecected by a large surrounding wall - too high for kids to climb, but a 'parkie' told us that we would be killed if we ever did manage to climb it and fall over the other side, "because it was a bottomless pit" :)

I have not been in the park for over 30 years so I can only presume during that time that the wall has been demolished and the disc put in its place - hence some of the work appearing to be 'newer'

Every city has drainage pipes, thats nothing odd. What would be more interesting is if Sheffield has / had tunnels of the sort found in Nottingham.
Everybody says there is but nobody can prove it!

Docmel, that would definately make sense, and confirm the barrage balloon story. I couldn't quite work out why the access to the tunnel was down a manhole, but that would make perfect sense if the entrance was originally gated, and would account for the differing ages in the construction.

The parkie wasn't lying if it was only a wall protecting that drop. If you managed to climb over the other side, the height would almost certainly kill you. HSE would have a fit nowadays haha.

My dad lived near the hundred steps at the crookesmoor end of fawcett street, near the church, I'll have to ask him what he knows about the Bromley Street construction.

I STR him and my grandpa saying there were lots of ducts under that hillside, which were to do with the shedloads of dams and reservoirs coming down from Crookes. (there's the dam at the CV park, and one under the sports ground opposite the Weston Park Hospital, and at least one other, up on Crookes just below the Lydgate lane junction.)

it makes you wonder .how would one go about finding this info
hang em and flog em brigade eh???where do i sign up???

Although i agree, there would be ducts around there, this particular one is definately wartime.

Doh ....Shame about tunnels, If there any it is unlikely we will be able to go down.


There is some sort of old war bunker in Beauchief woods, anybody know anything about this?

The mystery goes on............

Yes, I know what you mean! I've seen it myself. It's on one of the highest hills in the woods, near Beauchief Hall (except it's not exactly in the woods - more in the tall grass overlooking the Hall). You can see it quite clearly from the path that goes around the edge of the Hall grounds. It has a sign next to it, explaining what it is. Quite intriguing.