Should National Service be re-introduced?

No. A thug is always going to be a thug whether he/she has had national service or not, look at the USA they still do National service and still they have an enormous problem with the gun culture, the only difference being that after 2 years of it they can shoot better.

I don't think just bringing back somethign like national service would help a 'thug' problem.
The culture in the US is entirely different and it is it's general attitude to things that is the problem not just national service.

I not sure, i think it may be good for some.

Moon

No, I don't think it should be. What would be good about teaching people how to shoot and fight?

We don't really need a big army like we did years ago, because the days of trench warfare are more or less over.

I'm sorry but that is a bit of a narrow minded view to take of the miltary training init?
I mean is that all they do teach to shoot and fight?...no. They actually learn to take care of themselves and other people. I guess I am biased being from a military family but it such a wierd thing to see a guy being fussy about his stuff not being iron right by his wife!
Admittedly it can go into overkill as some squaddies have difficultlt adjusting to civvies but please.

Moon

Originally posted by Patchy
No, I don't think it should be. What would be good about teaching people how to shoot and fight?

We don't really need a big army like we did years ago, because the days of trench warfare are more or less over.

Is that all you think National service teaches you Patchy?

Your just thinking of the obvious things, the qualities to gained are endless.

NO! Personally, I think it is a violation of your civil liberties
( allthough I suppose if you are conscripted, you are not a civilian)... violation of human rights, then!

No, not at all.

And the last time I read any comments from the military, neither do the military. A volunteer army is a better bet than a conscript army, and using the military as a means of temporarily hiding underclass for 2 years at a time is ridiculous.

I don't believe that a dose of military discipline would benefit many people - I think that society needs to resolve it's discipline problems in other ways.

Joe

National Service is both old-fashioned, expensive and totally unneccessary in this day and age. All right: you get the older end screaming "they should never have done away with it!" every time they see a vandalised bus shelter or a burnt out vehicle.

In my opinion, anyone who honestly thinks that National Service would prevent this kind of thing happening, wants to be made to do National Service to smarten their brains up.

I don't think there is universal conscription in the U.S,or national service

Iteresting that everybody seems to home in on the military side of service. Why couldn't a modern National service take in aspects and experience from health care, law & order or community work. Come on people the future is out there, and the thought processes that fuel it are now exponential not lineal.

Lets not dress it up - at the end of the day it is about militarism, fighting, killing, dying, that is the reality. How many 18 year old kids have gone into voluntary service to 'get a trade' never expecting to see service and got killed.
Can you clarify what you mean by ' A modern national service could take on health law and order and community work'

Confused,about to be angry, hoping I am mis-understanding what you mean, counting to 9:confused:

Originally posted by draggletail
Lets not dress it up - at the end of the day it is about militarism, fighting, killing, dying, that is the reality. How many 18 year old kids have gone into voluntary service to 'get a trade' never expecting to see service and got killed.
Can you clarify what you mean by ' A modern national service could take on health law and order and community work'

Confused,about to be angry, hoping I am mis-understanding what you mean, counting to 9:confused:

How can you get confused!
wouldn't anyone who worked with the disadvantaged, Ill or offenders gain a positive life experience from it.
And gain a clearer perspective on actual life.

If the point of National Service is to teach people to respect others and look after each other, then I'm sure there are better ways to do it than make them join the army! Why not make people do a year of care work instead?

Originally posted by Patchy
If the point of National Service is to teach people to respect others and look after each other, then I'm sure there are better ways to do it than make them join the army! Why not make people do a year of care work instead?


Err, well that is National Servce.

NS doesn't have to be military. My knowledge of French NS is ten years old, so may be out of date now, but when my brother lived in France in the early nineties NS was compulsary. You had to do two years NS between the ages of 18 and 25. Whilst you did it, your loans/debts/mortgages were frozen. You could do all the military options, or you could do fire brigade, coastguard, mountain rescue, life guarding, caring, or rather bizarrely, air traffic control. I'm not sure if that is still the case, but it seems like a reasonable sysytem to me.

Originally posted by Patchy
If the point of National Service is to teach people to respect others and look after each other, then I'm sure there are better ways to do it than make them join the army! Why not make people do a year of care work instead?
But still, 'Making' someone do a year of care work if, against there will, is surely a violation of human rights? Does anyone know what the view of amnesty international, or similar org, is on this?
Or is it just me....:confused:

Maybe it is a little inconvenient, but try discussing human rights with a shopkeeper who is battling against shoplifters, a motorist who has just had their car vandalised, the mother who won't let their children play on the street... or the pensioner who has just been beaten up outside the Post Office by a smack head.

I'm not sure if I would introduce compulsory National Miltary Service, but I think that compulsory Public Service would be a great thing. Gap year? Pah.... do something useful for your community!

Originally posted by Tony
Maybe it is a little inconvenient, but try discussing human rights with a shopkeeper who is battling against shoplifters, a motorist who has just had their car vandalised, the mother who won't let their children play on the street... or the pensioner who has just been beaten up outside the Post Office by a smack head.

I'm not sure if I would introduce compulsory National Miltary Service, but I think that compulsory Public Service would be a great thing. Gap year? Pah.... do something useful for your community!

Well said Tony
I was robbed by an employee who admitted in court to stealing over £1200 from me and all she got was a £125 fine and had to re-pay me £600...net profit to her of at least £475, some deterent that is human rights ...huh, don't make me laugh the politically correct brigade should be made to live in the real world.

owdlad.

Maybe National Service as it used to be wouldn't be appropriate for today. However, something compulsory designed to teach young adults honesty, self-discipline and respect for others would be a good idea. Just one point though, since Spain abolished 'the mili' which was their equivalent of National Service (similar to the French system) there has been an increase in crime amongst the younger age groups. Now, would this have still happened if they had been conscripted to the 'Mili'?

Originally posted by owdlad
Well said Tony
I was robbed by an employee who admitted in court to stealing over £1200 from me and all she got was a £125 fine and had to re-pay me £600...net profit to her of at least £475, some deterent that is human rights ...huh, don't make me laugh the politically correct brigade should be made to live in the real world.

owdlad.
And you replied earlier to this thread Quote: 'No. A thug is always going to be a thug whether he/she has had national service or not, look at the USA they still do National service and still they have an enormous problem with the gun culture, the only difference being that after 2 years of it they can shoot better.@

Originally posted by draggletail
look at the USA they still do National service
Err.. when did they change that?

'look at the USA they still do National service'
Thats not my quote!
Anyway, how about this - Non military VOLUNTARY national service. Overhaul the allready existing young offenders 'community service' so they are not cleaning graffiti, or stripping off fly posters but are doing genuine useful community work, the type that people are suggesting, but then it would not be in a forced national service context

No, it shouldn't be compulsory for everyone, but anyone content to sit on their backside watching telly all day with no intention of getting a job while their girlfriend has another 4 kids at the expense of the taxpayer *pause for breath mid-rant* should be forced to be used as human minesweepers in the third world.

Come on be specific. What would you lot deem as useful to the community?

Personally I find it a huge breech of MY human rights and those of my children to have to endure people who are totally devoid of social skills and think it their right to anything in the world whether by law you actually own it or not. I think it a breech of my human rights that my children must be exposed to the foul language which is common amongst those whom I believe would benefit from some kind of service.

Could someone tell me where my human rights start please because so far it appears they are null and void in favour of the anti-social thieves, rapists and general pond scum of that thng we call humanity.

Moon Maiden

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
Come on be specific. What would you lot deem as useful to the community?

Personally I find it a huge breech of MY human rights and those of my children to have to endure people who are totally devoid of social skills and think it their right to anything in the world whether by law you actually own it or not. I think it a breech of my human rights that my children must be exposed to the foul language which is common amongst those whom I believe would benefit from some kind of service.

Could someone tell me where my human rights start please because so far it appears they are null and void in favour of the anti-social thieves, rapists and general pond scum of that thng we call humanity.

Moon Maiden

Moon it's along time coming this reply,
nobody should have to endure seeing their children evolve into a society that disregards the feelings of others.It is, after all, as there forbears our individual duty to create a better world for their development, should we fail, we fail not ourselves but them also.
The general pond scum that inhabit this world will probably always be there, hopefully diminishing as each generation passes by.
Our children are our future, guide them and never lose faith in them for they are the bringers of our tomorrows.

Originally posted by draggletail
Overhaul the allready existing young offenders 'community service' so they are not cleaning graffiti, or stripping off fly posters but are doing genuine useful community work, the type that people are suggesting, but then it would not be in a forced national service context

But cleaning graffiti, removing fly posters, picking up litter/dog mess is useful. Then when they've finished that lot there's lots of pensioners and disabled person's gardens they can get stuck into. And if there's time before their 8pm - 8am curfew starts they can be force-fed videos of the results of their actions.

This way they'd be working as hard as the rest of us, and get a good night's kip. Oh, and by the way, I'm not as cruel as you think. Let them have Sunday afternoon off!

And just to let the little scrotes know they're not on a skive, enforce National Service discipline. There must be lots of discharged ex-NCOs willing to take up the challenge. Why, we could even make it a spectator sport!!!!:thumbsup:

Human Rights-
Please define...

I think you are mistaking human rights with social privileges.

We have 3 basic human rights
1. The right to survive
2. The right to rationalise
3. The right to believe

Everything else are fundamental privileges. And its only some soft remote control wielding middle class westerners who self righteously preach the benefits of their so called human rights while they surf between CNN and BBC news 24 with news about people who flagrantly abuse the 3 basic human rights.

Yes we have to think about social privileges because we are the architects of our own society.

But for goodness sakes don't drivel on about human rights unless you have actually formally studied philosophy or written a published thesis on the subject.

National service should be nothing more than being a model citizen; to contribute to the structure of society. And in return we are allowed certain privileges. If we wantonly abuse our society we relinquish our rights to these privileges.

An Organised National Service, which could be part of our education system, is by no means a violation of any human rights. Its simply an inconvenience to people who can't see beyond their own very constricted horizons. National Service, which would naturally include travel opportunities, further training and wonderful experiences, could expand horizons and help people develop themselves while helping others.

Originally posted by Mr_E
Human Rights-

But for goodness sakes don't drivel on about human rights unless you have actually formally studied philosophy or written a published thesis on the subject.


Y'talking to me?
I take it YOU have formally studied philosophy and written a published thesis on the subject, then?
Good for you. It doesn't necessarily mean your point of view is correct, though
And it does not mean I am not allowed an opinion.
Are you saying I am only allowed an opinion if I have studied and published a thesis on the subject?:loopy:
It would be a strange world if you had to publish a thesis for every subject on which you had an opinion:loopy:

Originally posted by Mr_E
But for goodness sakes don't drivel on about human rights unless you have actually formally studied philosophy or written a published thesis on the subject.


Get lost.

Human Rights, for most people, includes the right to freedom of expression. That's for everyone, not just people who have studied philosophy.

Fool.

I think I said:


We have 3 basic human rights
1. The right to survive
2. The right to rationalise
3. The right to believe


You are as entitled to the privilege of expression as I am entitled to the privilege of expressing disagreement. The mods are entitled to censorship and therefore exemplifying my point.

But the important point here, which is clear when my comments are taken in context, is that a subject as critical and sensitive as human rights should not be utilised flippantly to discourage people from broadening their horizons while contributing globally to society.

Originally posted by Mr_E
Human Rights-

But for goodness sakes don't drivel on about human rights unless you have actually formally studied philosophy or written a published thesis on the subject.



And of course, anyone genuinely interested in exploring Ideas of human rights, even though they maybe starting at a naive level, i.e me, really should be encouraged/guided, and not be told to 'stop driveling' because they have not 'formally studied the subject or written a published thesis on the subject'

The words patronising and pompous spring to mind

Originally posted by draggletail
And of course, anyone genuinely interested in exploring Ideas of human rights, even though they maybe starting at a naive level, i.e me, really should be encouraged/guided, and not be told to 'stop driveling' because they have not 'formally studied the subject or written a published thesis on the subject'

The words patronising and pompous spring to mind

Fair comment

I believe we should send them into National Service.

My son was 3 days over 18 when he got sent to Iraq, he wanted to join the Army he comes from a military background, me his dad his brother his uncle and his grandad all served in the Army.
He knew he might die and when he came back he is now on anti-depresents due to what he saw and what happened out there.

He would still have joined up even after what happend to him.

I believe it would do them good to get off their bum`s and actually do something fro the community. It would not be the same as years ago, but it would teach them lots of things they did not know and they would learn about themselves and how to think about others.

Originally posted by rosie
I believe we should send them into National Service.

My son was 3 days over 18 when he got sent to Iraq, he wanted to join the Army he comes from a military background, me his dad his brother his uncle and his grandad all served in the Army.
He knew he might die and when he came back he is now on anti-depresents due to what he saw and what happened out there.

He would still have joined up even after what happend to him.

I believe it would do them good to get off their bum`s and actually do something fro the community. It would not be the same as years ago, but it would teach them lots of things they did not know and they would learn about themselves and how to think about others.


I totally agree with your comments...I did my Stint in Angola Mozambique and Rhodesia..
I was with a special task force called the Selouse scouts.

They taught me self discipline and worth.......How to manage in a crisis and how to adapt to any situation.

National service would be a good way forward here as it would get youngsters off the streets and teach them a trade that they could use in civvy street.

It would also be a good idea to conscript new comers that become British citizens and live here, not only to show that they deserve citizenship but also to honour and give allegence to the King or Queen.

As far as it is going against Human rights?.........

Since when is it against human rights to be told what to do for yourself and country?
Already your lives are governed by rules and everyone seems to take what they are given........

When National Service was last around, soldiers basically spent a lot of time marching about and cleaning things. There wasn't really anything for them to do. An unlucky few got sent to Yemen, Malaysia or Egypt and got killed. The rest of them whitewashed coal and cleaned floors with toothbrushes and things. Any 'character' that they gained would have been the ability to put up with extreme boredom.

In other European countries, you can do Social Service to instead of sitting around in a barracks. In germany, old peoples homes rely on this slave labour from untrained youngsters.

The other thing is that National Serivce would have to be universal, not just for the unemployed/criminals/whoever. I wouldn't appreciate the government wasting my time in this way.

:thumbsup:
If a young person is a loafer then they should do National Service. I know of a 21 year old who's never worked and has no intention of working. His idea of living is selling drugs, stolen goods and loafing around all day at our expence.

It wouldn't do them any harm and they may learn a trade.

What if they're not a loafer?

Maybe somebody who actually DID their time in N.S. might have an opinion. I know I learned a few lessons I still apply to my life, and no, I was NOT a loafer!!

Oxbeast.

My father did national service in Palastine, he did not just march about in fact no one he new ever had the time to march about all day, they actually worked very hard doing a job they did not want to do with consequences he had to live with for the rest of his life.

When he was alive he told me it made him into a man and he learned much more from his short time in the army than his parents ever taught him.

I don`t think you should say anything unless you have tried it.