... Just from talking to devoted members / supporters of the Labour party I've noticed a couple of things:

1. Not one of them is happy with how Brittain is today
2. They all STILL blame the Torry party for this, and mainly Maggie Thatcher

how long have Labour been in control now?
surely 3 terms is longer than they could have ever dreamed of - so how can people still blame Maggie Thatcher for the state of the country?

It beggers belief....

... Just from talking to devoted members / supporters of the Labour party I've noticed a couple of things:

1. Not one of them is happy with how Brittain is today
2. They all STILL blame the Torry party for this, and mainly Maggie Thatcher

how long have Labour been in control now?
surely 3 terms is longer than they could have ever dreamed of - so how can people still blame Maggie Thatcher for the state of the country?

It beggers belief....

P.s. I've put this in Sheffield Chat, because generally these people are from Sheffield & the rest of Yorkshire

Perhaps because they still blame the Tory government of old for privatisation. Without realising that the current labour party have continued the trend in many respects.

Well this labour party is beyond criticism isn't it? You dare question them on one of their policies and their fail-safe reply is 'Why not look at the good we've achieved since we came to power?' (Two Jags is good at this one.)

Well I'm still looking. Folk who can't afford houses; folk having to sell their houses to pay for care; highest ever gas, electricity and petrol prices; tax this, tax that. Inheritance tax, Capital Gains tax - the thresholds remain so low that even low earners are now getting stung.

Road tax. Congestion charges. All and sundry immigrants - how many, who knows? - free to enter this country. Human Rights which blockade any chance of justice to victims of crime. Tough on crime? Pathetic - we pander to the criminal.

Sleaze, corruption. The mess with foot and mouth. Selling off gold reserves. Blair Force One. Terrorism targeting our very country due to Blair's statesmanlike swagger, thinking he's the top man. War in Iraq and Afghanistan whilst our streets are a danger, both day and night.

A system which says: Why bother earning a living. We'll take every penny you make. A dislike, a hatred of anyone who has money - or a 4 x 4 - or private education.

Political Correctness - quotas for ethnics and people of different sexual orientation (what's wrong with the best person for the job?).

I could go on and on. What bothers me is, where is the opposition?

Mr Blair has made all our lives more difficult and certainly more dangerous. Long after he's gone, his leading us into war will affect the lives of our children - if we're still here.

It certainly is reasonable to still blame the Tories for a number of things, although not necessarily everything.

They privatised a great number of things, not least public transport, water, gas etc. This means that we were sold things we already owned at a substantial discount and only the bankers got rich. We now have several bus companies who only want to make maximum profit on the most cost effective routes and the councils still have to subsidise the rural routes. The result is that we are still paying for anything that doesn't make a profit but don't have the central control necessary to have good public transport.

The Tories spent virtually nothing on the infrastructure of schools and hospitals. As a result it has taken vast amounts of money to repair roofs, update classrooms and build new schools. Everywhere you look there are new schools and hospitals being planned and all we can critisice is the way these have been planned or the way they are funded. Under the tories there was nothing to citiisice as there were no new buildings and all the old ones leaked. It will take many more years to fix what was neglected.

Probably the worst legacy is that Thatcher created a way of life where everyone was out for themselves. This will take generations to completely fix.

but who else is there to vote for? Tories? Not a chance. Lib Dems, if they'd make up their mind on something or get some policies then maybe, Greens? Very nicey nice ideas, not much substance. UKIP? Not a chance. BNP, don't make me laugh.

"Can't vote tory, me grandad says they're bad news."


Thats how Labour have stayed in power.

but who else is there to vote for? Tories? Not a chance. Lib Dems, if they'd make up their mind on something or get some policies then maybe, Greens? Very nicey nice ideas, not much substance. UKIP? Not a chance. BNP, don't make me laugh.

Exactly.

I totally agree

"Can't vote tory, me grandad says they're bad news."


Thats how Labour have stayed in power.

correct!

it's the old "Mi dad worked darn pit till that Thatcher an er Tory lot kicked 's arrt ont street.... mi fatha ses i carnt vote fo them"

correct!

it's the old "Mi dad worked darn pit till that Thatcher an er Tory lot kicked 's arrt ont street.... mi fatha ses i carnt vote fo them"


No it isn't. It's the fact that the Tories of today have taken so many of their policies from other parties that they fail to have an identity of their own. One thing i will say for Thatcher et al is that they had an identity. What we're seeing now is a mix of Thatcherite values with socialist principles. I believe Giddens called it 'the Third Way'.
'New' Labour have done some very good work for this country since coming to power. Not everything has been perfect, far from it, but we aren't seeing rioting on a national scale, rocketing unemployment or an economy which is crashing round our ears a la Black Wednesday. The reason "Thatcher and them lot" is blamed for much of the imperfect things in this country is perfectly acceptable - they were to blame for much of it. This Labour party has inherited an infrastructure cemented in term upon term of Tory rule.
Don't get me wrong, many of the things the Tories did were fantastic steps, but much of it didn't help this country financially or culturally. Likewise 'New' Labour, but to sum up your argument as you have is both grossly incorrect, and I guess to many people reading this forum, quite offensive.

What gets me most about Labour supporters, espically in Sheffield, is that they always go on about about issues like how they are against the Iraq war and how they want an immediate ceasefire in the Isreal-Lebanon conflict and how they hate privatisation etc.

Don't get me wrong, i agree with their opinions on these issues. But its a LABOUR Government that took us into an illegal war, a LABOUR government who refuse to call for an immediate ceasefire, and a LABOUR government who are very much in favour of privatisation.

If the grassroots of Labour had any backbone they would have got rid of Tony Blair after the fallout of Iraq. As it is they are happy to sit back and be armchair socialists whilst their own party follows an agenda more akin to their arch-nemisis Maggie Thatcher!

What gets me most about Labour supporters, espically in Sheffield, is that they always go on about about issues like how they are against the Iraq war and how they want an immediate ceasefire in the Isreal-Lebanon conflict and how they hate privatisation etc.

Don't get me wrong, i agree with their opinions on these issues. But its a LABOUR Government that took us into an illegal war, a LABOUR government who refuse to call for an immediate ceasefire, and a LABOUR government who are very much in favour of privatisation.

If the grassroots of Labour had any backbone they would have got rid of Tony Blair after the fallout of Iraq. As it is they are happy to sit back and be armchair socialists whilst their own party follows an agenda more akin to their arch-nemisis Maggie Thatcher!


wrong. It was a cross party decision to go to war in iraq and afghanistan.

wrong. It was a cross party decision to go to war in iraq and afghanistan.

Sorry, on Iraq it was Labour who proposed the invasion and they where supported by the Conservatives. The Lib Dems objected because they believed the war would be illegal and counter-productive. So it wasnt a 'cross party' decision.

Afganistan is a slightly different issue.

ok, fair enough - but the scism we appear to have here is very much along the blue/red lines, so the point still stands.

Not sure what point your trying to make, but my point is that the Labour Government are basiclly carrying on where the Tories left off. Yet Labour supporters seem happy to stand by and ignore all their own principles and believes just because their party is the one in power.

I'm not ignoring my own principles, nor my beliefs. However, Labour is the party which most closely matches them, hence my vote going in that box.

Thats fair enough, im not really reffering to the average joe bloggs voter on the street. It's the Labour activists who go on 'anti-war' and 'ban the bomb' demonstrations who just seem to be completely contridicting themselves by just being members of the labour party.

The other point is that many people assume that the Labour Party still stand for the same values they did 15 or 20 years ago, i.e. left-wing mainstream party. But in actual fact if you scratch the surface they are a right wing party with all the controlling hang-ups of the left, but thats a matter of opinion i suppose!

However, you still get the sense in Sheffield that people just vote Labour because thats what they have always done. They don't bother to look at what they actually stand for in todays world.

No it isn't. It's the fact that the Tories of today have taken so many of their policies from other parties that they fail to have an identity of their own.
That struck me as a little ironic. Try replacing the word "Tories" with "New Labour".

I don't agree with Thatcher's methods. In particular her blind adherence to monetarism and to hell with the consequences left the country with a host of social problems it will take decades to sort. However the reason the country elected a Thatcher in the first place was cos Labour was falling apart and the country was in the grip of the Unions who couldn't organise a drinking session in a brewery. Waste and inefficiency was rife. We were up S. Creek without a paddle.

What I dislike about the current so called Labour government is legislation, legislation, legislation. The nanny state at its worst. It is not the job of government to bully me into adhering to their ideology. I voted Labour in the "Were you up for Portilllo" landslide. Who'd've thought that night that a Labour government would have me longing for the days of laissez faire conservativism!

I agree -although i wouldn't ever be found longing for the days of conservatism.
I'd like to see Labour back in power to be honest. Not New Labour.

Anyway, i'm off home now.

correct!

it's the old "Mi dad worked darn pit till that Thatcher an er Tory lot kicked 's arrt ont street.... mi fatha ses i carnt vote fo them"


I find myself agreeing with you again mate. My dad once commented that my Nan and Grandad would still vote labour even if the party leader was a monkey, I think its just out of habbit and a bloody bad habbit at that, the sooner Blair and his red rosette cronies pee off the better imo.


Ps Two Jags is a disgrace and a joke and under Blair we are nothin but Bush's lap dogs.

I find myself agreeing with you again mate. My dad once commented that my Nan and Grandad would still vote labour even if the party leader was a monkey, I think its just out of habbit and a bloody bad habbit at that, the sooner Blair and his red rosette cronies pee off the better imo.


Ps Two Jags is a disgrace and a joke and under Blair we are nothin but Bush's lap dogs.



They are lapdogs to America but who would you rather have on your side, the Yanks or the French, I know who my moneys on

They are lapdogs to America but who would you rather have on your side, the Yanks or the French, I know who my moneys on


Neither we are a seperate entity with different policy's and we need a leader to stand up for the majority of british people and there opinions.

New Labour have Taken so much in tax that they have caused so many businesses to decide to take their operations elsewhere, the country is propped up on a mountain of debt, a vast proportion of the money spent in shops is on credit cards. so many people are going bankrupt, one every minute in this country. I could go on and on and on about this useless shower, but I am about to get on a plane.... The whole business upon which the Iraq war, and the case for going to war has now been exposed as a fabrication, the scientist who spoke out, the BBC, Greg Dyke all took the blame for exposing this and it was true all along. And what about that Vile Estelle morris, who INTERFERED with children's exam results when they had been privately educated ???? its a complete pile of SH****TE

They are lapdogs to America but who would you rather have on your side, the Yanks or the French, I know who my moneys on

France is a model, for a socialist state.

Good Schools, Good Hospitals, all Free, Good roads, good Trains, good Food, Affordable Houses.

America ??

1/3 of people live in povery


I'm off to France REALLY, On Sunday, its 10000000000000 times better than this joke of a place.

They are lapdogs to America but who would you rather have on your side, the Yanks or the French, I know who my moneys on

I'd rather we didn't have to be forced to be on a 'side' and maybe the terror alert that's happened today might not be involving us.

It would be interesting to see the results of a survey looking at the intelligence of Labour voters compared to those of other parties.

Obviously they would be way down below Conservative voters, but I very strongly suspect that their average would be the bottom of the pool compared to all of the other parties.

correct!

it's the old "Mi dad worked darn pit till that Thatcher an er Tory lot kicked 's arrt ont street.... mi fatha ses i carnt vote fo them"

Yeah yeah and I have met many young Tories who say the same thing though they were around Middlesex, Herts and Bucks etc

we are products of our environment, dont expect many tory voters in s yorks after the 'economic resturcturing' of the area.

A system which says: Why bother earning a living. We'll take every penny you make. A dislike, a hatred of anyone who has money - or a 4 x 4 - or private education.



What do you expect?, everyone knows people dont all get the same chances from day 1, an inner city kid will not get the same chances as Jemimah from Chelsea - FACT so of course it causes resentment, why should a kid suffer an inferior education due to parents cash?

People respect money, they just dont respect those who did not gain it on their own merit which probably accounts for the majority, all the top rich had a head start including Branson and the exceptions prove the rule.

As for 4x4's most people simply cant understand why anyone would drive such a thing on Britains already choked roads and understandably see it as selfish, which unless you are driving in the country it is. And no that is not the que for the bores to lecture about their tiny footprint and engines that apparently run on a droplet per mile.

wrong. It was a cross party decision to go to war in iraq and afghanistan.

Backed by the fact that Tony Bliar (deliberate typo, yeh) is up George W Bush's butt!

What do you expect?, everyone knows people dont all get the same chances from day 1, an inner city kid will not get the same chances as Jemimah from Chelsea - FACT so of course it causes resentment, why should a kid suffer an inferior education due to parents cash?

People respect money, they just dont respect those who did not gain it on their own merit which probably accounts for the majority, all the top rich had a head start including Branson and the exceptions prove the rule.

As for 4x4's most people simply cant understand why anyone would drive such a thing on Britains already choked roads and understandably see it as selfish, which unless you are driving in the country it is. And no that is not the que for the bores to lecture about their tiny footprint and engines that apparently run on a droplet per mile.

Gosh, you miss my point, entirely.

I'm not on about children inheriting the riches of their parents, nor walking into a £60k a year job at their father's business.

My grandfather started our business from absolutely nothing. My father took it into the 20th century. My brothers and I joined the business from school - on frankly pathetic wages.

My dad had a good standard of living (some reckoned he was a millionaire - some folk have no idea). Was my father in the wrong therefore to want to better himself, to buy a nice house and a nicer car? He'd worked for it, alright.

Should he have not taken his family on wonderful holidays? Simply because others didn't get off on the same foot (or rather, others thought it better to claim off the state whilst spewing their resentment at those who had actually got off their arses)?

Look at the present rate of corporation tax. Anything left after running your business above a net profit of (I think) £10k - and it's taxed. Hardly an incentive IMO. Yet funnily enough, make less than £10k net profit or better, a loss, and you're not taxed. Why not give us a barrier of £100, 000 net profit tax free as an incentive - as a Well Done even?

Finally, whilst I agree with you regarding people's supposed needs to own a 4 x 4, especially for the school run whose mothers would struggle to handle a Mini Metro, it's down to the individual to decide whether they want one and wish to spend all their money on fuel for the thing!

But like - as I said - private education, earning a decent living and enjoying the benefits of success, bigger house, nicer car, holidays, private health insurance and so on, there is an element of society who - just because they don't have these things themselves - reckon others shouldn't have them either.

And the first group which springs to mind is New Labour.

Finally, whilst I agree with you regarding people's supposed needs to own a 4 x 4, especially for the school run whose mothers would struggle to handle a Mini Metro, it's down to the individual to decide whether they want one and wish to spend all their money on fuel for the thing!



OK - I can't really see the point in 4x4's either, BUT if you start telling people they shouldn't have one because you don't really need one and it harms the environment where does it end?

e.g.

A wealthy couple, children have left home, live in a 7 bedroom, 5 reception rooms, 5 bathroom house with heated swimming pool. - think of the energy usage for heating / cooling that property all year round for just 2 people

Should we tell them they have to downsize to a 2 bed roomed bungalow?

How about people going on holiday to Australia? - should we say "That's too far. flying that distance uses too much fuel - either go to Benidorm or don't go abroad.

The fact is - the reason we are harming the planet with all this CO2 is due to the fact that everytime someone invents a car which runs on Cat P*ss or something like that, the OIL companies buys the paternt to protect their investments!

If we were aloud to buy these invensions then we wouldn't be harming the planet!

so by simply saying - if you buy a 3litre car it's your fault the ice caps are melting is Bull-poop!

Look at the present rate of corporation tax. Anything left after running your business above a net profit of (I think) £10k - and it's taxed. Hardly an incentive IMO. Yet funnily enough, make less than £10k net profit or better, a loss, and you're not taxed. Why not give us a barrier of £100, 000 net profit tax free as an incentive - as a Well Done even?
.

The trouble with tax is that it is so complex that you can argue all year long about who is taxing most. The basic rule might seem to be that those governments that spend more must tax more, but really they might also boost the economy and so have more to tax (or might borrow more). For example, I might poinnt out that the Tories increased VAT from 8% to 17.5% or that taper relief on the sale of business assets is a great boost to innovation as is the ability to write of tax spend on R&D. However, you mentioned the corporation tax rate as if it is currently particularly high. The rate of tax under the Tories was 35% for much of the time but was reduced to 30% under the first Labour government. The corporation tax system was also changed to benefit small businesses.

Quote from KenH

Probably the worst legacy is that Thatcher created a way of life where everyone was out for themselves. This will take generations to completely fix.

You have just described many "New Labour" politicians, including most of the current Leadership and Cabinet to a tee. :thumbsup:

You have just described many "New Labour" politicians, including most of the current Leadership and Cabinet to a tee. :thumbsup:

Most of them are too old to be affected by Thatcher in this way. I am really referring to people who were at school and got their first jobs under Thatcher. It was made perfectly clear that doing poorly paid jobs made you worthless and the the pursuit of money was the only important thing.

Most of them are too old to be affected by Thatcher in this way. I am really referring to people who were at school and got their first jobs under Thatcher. It was made perfectly clear that doing poorly paid jobs made you worthless and the the pursuit of money was the only important thing.

but that's what Labour are saying with their "Everyone should go to Uni and get a degree" policy!

Most of them are too old to be affected by Thatcher in this way.

So they have no excuse for making your idea of Mrs. Thatchers "teachings" into a fine art. :) :thumbsup: