As this topic has reared it's head within other threads, I'm giving it it's own space here.

Many of us have very strong feelings about the breeding of Pedigree dogs, crossbreeds and 57s, and the number of accidental pups who need homes, and I know they are all different.


This thread is for discussion, not for slagging anybody else or their opinions off, so keep it nice, and don't swear, or we'll have to close it straight back down again


(sorry it starts a bit stilted, but the first three are imported posts)

If you don't have pedigree papers for your dog, do I assume that no other owner would want to breed with your dog?

Not necessarily Buffy. There can be lots of reasons for not having papers, and lots of people who have no interest in showing or registering their dogs with the kennel club will still breed, but the pups are usually sold for about half the price or less of those who are KC registered.

I would be really interested to hear other people's views about breeding. I am very biased against it. Much as i adore puppies and truly believe there should be lots of pups around - i think people loose the plot on why the pups are being bred.

The big debate on puppy farming, garden shed breeders as well as those for the show ring and the 'oops she just got out' breeders.

what do you think?

Now open for posting :thumbsup:

I agree on it to a degree. I mean, Id rather know my dog had come from healthy parents but I dispise ppl who do it purely for profit

I honestly think the world is full of so many so called "unwanted" dogs who end up in sancturies and alike that something ought to be done to stop breeders adding to them. A bit like what they decided in China with the one baby rule. (don't by any means think that I believe this was a good idea with humans) But limiting or even putting a ban on breeders breeding for a year or so would give chance for the situation to get better. I can understand why people would want to buy a dog from a breeder, personally I can't see myself ever choosing that over a rescued animal though. By having a temporary ban on breeders breeding it may also help to seperate the good guys from the bad.

How about if we have a ban on cross breeds for 12 months?

Jess, do you not think that banning responsible breeders from producing pups will just encourage back yard litters to supply the demand, and resulting in more unwormed, unvaccinated pups released onto the market.

Perhaps there should be heavy fines for unlicenced breeding?...... or would that just result in more dumped pups?

I think it should be monitored a lot closer than it is

I have a 7-month-old chocolate Labrador; he house trained very easily and took to puppy training classes well. He was just beginning to look like a very good dog when he went lame.

The vet says he as hip displacement and we are waiting to see a bone spiecalist,we viewed him with the rest of the litter, we saw is mother and we have his papers.

I had a word with the vet about hip scoring and was told they don’t mean a thing, two healthy parents with good hips can still have a pup with bad hips.

I guess what I am saying is you make your choice but papers and pedigrees don’t really amount to much.

There are known breed problems - and you're right, in a labrador papers won't guarantee a healthy dog. Was your dog not hip scored before you collected it from the breeder?

Would you choose not to have a lab if you had your time over?
Do you think that it's all organised breeding that's caused the hip problems?
Would you have a 57 next time?

I don't think that a ban on breeding is a workable plan. How on earth would you enforce it? And how could you cover for circumstances where either the owner didn't bother about the ban and let the bitch get pregnant or where the owner did care but the dogs had other ideas?

There are known breed problems - and you're right, in a labrador papers won't guarantee a healthy dog. Was your dog not hip scored before you collected it from the breeder?

Would you choose not to have a lab if you had your time over?
Do you think that it's all organised breeding that's caused the hip problems?
Would you have a 57 next time?

I didn’t know that pups where hip scored, I thought it was the breeding pair that was scored but as our vet told us it doesn’t really mean much, these things happen. Because it as been diagnosed early there may be a chance something can be done, apparently the main problem is arthritis in older age.

Big dogs are known to have hip problems and it was something we where aware of but not in a 7 month old pup.

When I was a kid we used to have a LabX , we never had him to the vets for anything, maybe breeding is the problem, 57`s do seem to be stronger/fitter !

The wife had her heart set on a chocolate Lab, we used to have a Springer who was full of beans I think she wanted something a bit more laid back, as I said the Lab as a good temperament.

Jess, do you not think that banning responsible breeders from producing pups will just encourage back yard litters to supply the demand, and resulting in more unwormed, unvaccinated pups released onto the market.

Perhaps there should be heavy fines for unlicenced breeding?...... or would that just result in more dumped pups?

Yes I do think it will encourage back door breeders, which is by no means a good thing but hopefully it would help put a stop to them- tracking down where pups come from. Maybe enforcing heavy fines for unlicensed breeding, but these people breed dogs to make money, if they get lumpted with a fine how are they going to afford to pay?

I am by no means against breeders, I would just like to think that they cared enough about the current situation to do something to try and cut down the population of unwanted dogs. And yes, a ban on crossbreed breeding would be good, but as somebody said it would be near enough impossible.

OWDLAD once had a go at cross breeding dogs.
LOOK (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/viking99/cloning10.jpg)what happened.

II had a word with the vet about hip scoring and was told they don’t mean a thing, two healthy parents with good hips can still have a pup with bad hips.



to clarify: hip scoring is very important! a lab with bad hips is likely to have offspring with bad hips and therefore, animals with poor hip scores can be taken off the breeding loop.....

to clarify: hip scoring is very important! a lab with bad hips is likely to have offspring with bad hips and therefore, animals with poor hip scores can be taken off the breeding loop.....

I think the point was that having parent animals with good hip scores does not guarantee a puppy with good hip scores, therefore in some sense the hip scoring of the parent animals is irrelevant when it comes to whether or not your puppy will be well.

i believe that certain pedigree dogs should be stopped from breeding in effect immediately. the breeds that would benefit the most are:

1. sharpeis (endless skin diseases)

2. bulldogs, boxers, pugs and anything with squashed faces (they can't breathe properly for god sake!! can't the owners HEAR them struggling to breathe????)

3. german shepherd dogs (have many breed-specific problems through inbreeding, but hip and muscular diseases of the backend mostly)

people should think a bit more about the dog's longterm quality of life first, THEN judge them on their looks as to whether they want them as a pet.

I think the point was that having parent animals with good hip scores does not guarantee a puppy with good hip scores, therefore in some sense the hip scoring of the parent animals is irrelevant when it comes to whether or not your puppy will be well.

thanks for clearing that up medusa :)

I think the point was that having parent animals with good hip scores does not guarantee a puppy with good hip scores, therefore in some sense the hip scoring of the parent animals is irrelevant when it comes to whether or not your puppy will be well.

Thats exactly what the vet told me. :thumbsup:

Some interesting info on hipscoring:
http://www.acay.com.au/~dissi/sbc/hipdys.htm
http://www.goldendoodles.com/hd_mini_tutorial.htm

My mistake - pups have to be over 4 months old before they can be scored :rolleyes:

It also mentions weight as a contributing factor to this problem, so it's no wonder Labs are prone to it ;) (they compare quite well with Beagles in the gannet stakes :D )

Some interesting info on hipscoring:
http://www.acay.com.au/~dissi/sbc/hipdys.htm
http://www.goldendoodles.com/hd_mini_tutorial.htm

My mistake - pups have to be over 4 months old before they can be scored :rolleyes:

It also mentions weight as a contributing factor to this problem, so it's no wonder Labs are prone to it ;) (they compare quite well with Beagles in the gannet stakes :D )


Thank you for the link to the web sites, as you can imagine I have been giving google some stick over the last few days.

The only positive thing seems to be that it as been diagnosed early before there is any damage to the bones. I am waiting to see a specialist in two weeks for further advice, my vet thinks they may leave it a bit until he stops growing

He is comfortable now but very lethargic probably due to the painkillers he as been given.

i believe that certain pedigree dogs should be stopped from breeding in effect immediately. the breeds that would benefit the most are:

1. sharpeis (endless skin diseases)

2. bulldogs, boxers, pugs and anything with squashed faces (they can't breathe properly for god sake!! can't the owners HEAR them struggling to breathe????)

3. german shepherd dogs (have many breed-specific problems through inbreeding, but hip and muscular diseases of the backend mostly)

people should think a bit more about the dog's longterm quality of life first, THEN judge them on their looks as to whether they want them as a pet.

why not just ban all dogs.??
cocker spaniels for instance - ear problems,warts,liver problems genetically.prolific problems with "rage syndrome" in solid colours.
dobermans - hip dysplasia problems.
dalmatians - genetic deafness problems.
all of these can be to the detriment of the dog,but then again how many humans are 100% perfect.



edited: i am a dog owner all pedigrees and all rescued from breeders.

We talk of this often within different rescue groups - the rights and the wrongs of it all - and how can we stop so many lovely lovely dogs being thrown on the scrap heap every day.

Since The Dogs Trust & RSPCA implemented their voucher scheme for subsidised spey/neuter in areas that suffer with stray dogs (mostly in the north ), and offered subsidised spey/neuter programs the destructions figures published by the DT have decreased dramatically. 24k 2 yrs ago and 12k 2005.

My concerns are that whilst we do want to neuter dogs like staffy's, staffy's x's, gsd 'x's and many of the agressive breeds - we are also neutering many of the lovely lovely heinz 57's that are fantastic family pets and just great common-a-garden mongrels.

Eventually when all these x' breeds are reduced down - will this just open the door for the back yard breeders, to keep the poor bitches (cavy's, westies, yorky's, labs etc.,) where they produce pup after pup after pup - receiving undeclared income of cash whilst these dogs receive little veterinary treatment or care or love and attention - and then destroyed at the end of their breeding time - their place taken over by the next breeding machine.

This happens through the country - but v. heavily in certain parts of the UK and tremendously in Wales with the large puppy farmers - this is a large income potential and very little needed to be spent on the care of the dogs. These dogs are usually kept in horrendous conditions - year after year after year. The pups born are mentally and physically neglected which usually lead to health problems later in life. When Mr and Mrs family want one of these puppies, the pups only need a quick bath and a wash down, to get rid of the last 7 wks of the poo that they have been laying in - and they are non the wiser - the majority don't ask to see the mom - and so many even today - buy puppies in car parks, or have the pups delivered to their doors. Aaah wasn't that man nice doing that for us?

I also fear that will this end up that only the rich can afford to have a dog - because these £600 and upwards that are being charged for breed puppies, will be in great demand and maybe beyond the household budget?

One final soap box on breeding is that I think temprament should be assessed for any dog to be awarded a KC for both males and females.

Just a few personal thoughts - cos i can't bear so many dogs being destroyed every day and always trying to find ways to reduce it. Ooh look at that pink pig.