Everybody should go to see this Michael Moore documentary.

Originally posted by Gerry
Everybody should go to see this Michael Moore documentary.

Why ?

From what i've heard its just left wing propoganda designed to make Bush look stupid (hardly difficult) and to make the Republicans look bad.
I go on quite a few forums which are based in the states and theres a lot of threads about F9/11. I'd say about 70-80% on people who post on them think Michael Moore is a complete ass-clown.

BTW, there is a TV & Moivie forum you know.

Originally posted by mr craig
From what i've heard its just left wing propoganda designed to make Bush look stupid (hardly difficult) and to make the Republicans look bad.
I go on quite a few forums which are based in the states and theres a lot of threads about F9/11. I'd say about 70-80% on people who post on them think Michael Moore is a complete ass-clown.

BTW, there is a TV & Moivie forum you know.

Left wing propaganda? Maybe....but if this movie helps in any way, shape or form to remove Bush from power, then God bless Michael Moore. Also, the forums that you visit do not necessarily represent the views of all Americans.

Not sure what this has got to do with Sheffield History?

Moving to a more appropriate forum.

Originally posted by headup
Also, the forums that you visit do not necessarily represent the views of all Americans.


I never said they did and i myself dont belive they represent the views of what most Americans think. In most cases the threads are started by someone who's seen F9/11 and is saying what a moving and good docu/film(???) it is, then in most cases they just end up getting flamed by people who are pro Bush, but you dont tend to see many people arguing against them.
I can't really say that i'll be going to see it myself, this forums had enough talk about politics over the last month to last me a life time.

Having seen some of his previous stuff I'm not that impressed with Mr Moore.

He exhibits a lot of the same sort of thinking that he castigates his opponents for - it's just that he comes at it from a more 'right on' angle.

Moore is a propagandist par-excellence - a trait that is not always good to see in a film maker. however, he's good at what he does - just don't expect to get 'the truth'.

Just remember the quote from the Spanish Civil War used by the Manic Street Preachers 'This is my truth, tell me yours', and remember that both Moore and his opponents , like the characters in Joseph Heller's 'Something Happened' or the characters in the film 'Rashomon' all tell their own versions of the same story.

Joe

Originally posted by JoePritchard
Having seen some of his previous stuff I'm not that impressed with Mr Moore.

He exhibits a lot of the same sort of thinking that he castigates his opponents for - it's just that he comes at it from a more 'right on' angle.

Moore is a propagandist par-excellence - a trait that is not always good to see in a film maker. however, he's good at what he does - just don't expect to get 'the truth'.

Just remember the quote from the Spanish Civil War used by the Manic Street Preachers 'This is my truth, tell me yours', and remember that both Moore and his opponents , like the characters in Joseph Heller's 'Something Happened' or the characters in the film 'Rashomon' all tell their own versions of the same story.

Joe

Absolutely agree with you, Joe. Nice Manics ref ;)

On that note: If [we] tolerate this, then [our] children/freedom of speech/human rights/environment will be next. Bush and his NeoCon masters have to go - for the sake of all our children. Even if Kerry is only an ounce 'better', then at least we're moving in the right direction. The fact that the current US government is over-run with extreme right wing, military/industrial/zionist/fundamentalist Christian megalomaniacs is, quite simply, bad for us all.

My point is that maybe it takes an equally extreme piece of 'propaganda' to bring us all back (at least the greater American public - spoon-fed by the sometimes outright lies/unresearched Whitehouse spin of Fox news and CNN) to a more central, truly democratic position - where both sides of the story are heard and the people can decide on what's 'right'.

Your opinion of Moore aside - do you not think that Bush should go and Farenheit 9/11 is a useful tool in attaining that goal?

If one good thing comes of this movie, it'll be that - like it is here - it stimulates conversation and debate. :)

Also - did they ever find Richie Manic?

Nope, they never found Richie. They found his car, I believe, near the Clifton Suspension Bridge but no body.

The problem with fighting propaganda with propaganda is that the whole thing degenerates in to the sort of hysteria and fixed positions that eventually happened during WW1 (Huns raping nuns, bayonetting babies, etc.).

An interesting comment was made by Hitler towards the end of his regime, which was that when the allies adopted the same techniques as the Nazis did then the Nazis had won a moral victory. This was elaborated on by author George Steiner in his book 'The Portage to San Christobel of AH'.

If MM adopts a propagandistic approach where the truth is manipulated and distorted 'for the cause', then any effort to maintain any form of moral high ground is lost.

The removal of President Bush, if that is the democratic wish of the US electorate, must be seen to be done in a clean and open way, preferably through an electoral process that doesn't involve cock ups and hanging chads.

I'm not a US citizen; I bitched long and hard when the US tried to tell us how to handle Northern Ireland and so I won't have an opinion as to whether the US should dump their President or not.

Joe

That's a very interesting point of view. Not something I'd really contemplated before. However, I'm not sure that the moral high ground is affective for removing the Bush regime - as entrenched as it is in the US administration.
Voting is a good example. As you may know, voting in the US is being 'modernized' by the use of electronic polling stations - essentially PCs running bespoke software. The first problem here is that there's no paper trail and therefore no accountability. Additionally and perhaps most damning is the fact that these voting machines are manufactured, installed and votes counted by a company that makes very large donations to the Republican party. Then there's the thousands of black voters that were removed from Florida's electoral roll (which happens to be Jeb Bush's state) for being ex-felons (many were removed because they had the same name or even a *similar* name to an ex-felon!!). It just so happens that most black voters vote Democrat. George W wins Florida and the Presidential election (but only with the help of the supreme court). There's so much more to this administration that stinks (Iraq - obviously). It is without doubt one of the most corrupt presidential administrations that the US (and the world) has ever had the misfortune of having.

I suspect that attempting to 'play fair' and from the moral high ground would have little effect against Bush and co., who so obviously do NOT play by the rules.

That's exactly it though - as soon as you get down in to fighting on the other side's turf, especially if the other side is better equipped, financed and attitudanally adjusted to playing dirty, you're taking away your advantage.

History will out on these things - in that I have faith. I believe it was Alexei Kosygin, the Soviet Foreign Minister in the 1960s / 70s who said, when asked about the historical significance of the French Revolution, that it was 'still too early to tell'.

We know from recent history - (for example, Iran / Contra) that despite the best efforts of people in power to hide stuff it eventually surfaces. If people like MM care about the truth, then they should tell it without tarting it up.

I've just been to see this fahrenheit 9/11 at the showroom cinema ...

One of the best films I have ever seen ... and I recommend anyone to see this.

At the end of the film as the credits started to roll ... there such spontaneous applause.

A touching and powerful film ...

(only vote in the poll if you've seen the film).

I have heard (by you yourself) that it is very good, may see for myself - nip down to Bluewater cinema at stage.

Alex

hopefully I'm gonna see this next week

ooh I really want to see this, I'll let you know if I clap!

I saw it yesterday and was transfixed throughout. OK you can look at it not totally thru Moore's eyes and realise that in any war there are casualties.. but the whole way the government is run and set up with business dealings is frightening and totally crazy. Great film and go and watch. More of a documentary really.. bit like his other film Bowling for Columbine.

What really amazes me is that anyone thinks that ANY government in the Western World is run differently!

I've said it before - Moore is an excellent propagandist, and his millions of dollars indicate that he is more than happy to bite the hand that feeds him. One does not make millions of dollars in the movie business unless one gets cosy with the powers that be.

However, as a propagandist, his portrayal of the story is from HIS angle - it should not be treated as gospel, balanced, truth.

Joe

Originally posted by JoePritchard
What really amazes me is that anyone thinks that ANY government in the Western World is run differently!

I've said it before - Moore is an excellent propagandist, and his millions of dollars indicate that he is more than happy to bite the hand that feeds him. One does not make millions of dollars in the movie business unless one gets cosy with the powers that be.

However, as a propagandist, his portrayal of the story is from HIS angle - it should not be treated as gospel, balanced, truth.

Joe

haven't seen the film yet but very well said there joe

Im off to see this film next weekend it certainly looked good on the advert.
Ive never been to a film where people have applauded at the end.

I went to see Godsend this weekend which was OK although i did have to tell the people behind to shut up and they then threatened to beat me up which made it all the more enjoyable.

Originally posted by JoePritchard
What really amazes me is that anyone thinks that ANY government in the Western World is run differently!

I've said it before - Moore is an excellent propagandist, and his millions of dollars indicate that he is more than happy to bite the hand that feeds him. One does not make millions of dollars in the movie business unless one gets cosy with the powers that be.

However, as a propagandist, his portrayal of the story is from HIS angle - it should not be treated as gospel, balanced, truth.

Joe

But at the very least it's an alternative viewpoint, of which there aren't too many coming out of America. He should be congratulated for fighting against the prevailing political tide. How much balanced truth do you get on Fox News? Moore's an important figure, and I'm glad he's around.

I haven't seen the film yet, but I've read and seen everything else that Moore has done and it seems that the time has come for the critics and the media in general to turn on him. The reviews that the film received have savaged both the film and its maker, the Sunday Times critic labelled the film "crude propaganda" and claimed it was a travesty that it won a prestigious award at Cannes.

I believe that there are points at which Moore's move from a critic of US domestic policy to a critic of international events has been both difficult and naive on his part. There are issues and viewpoints of which Moore seems at times either unaware of or simply not interested in and a reader would be well advised to read further field than his books in order to find a better understanding of the issues upon which he dwells.

But what worries me more is the fact that some seem to resent the very fact that Moore exists at all. Asserting that he bites the hand that feeds him is not, in my opinion, really a valid criticism as the mass media is the only true forum on which one can put across such a message. Only the fact that Moore's political stance has been noisy, cantankerous and widely popular has led to his voice being heard. If it sells then the powers that be will want to make money out of it, that fact will never change.

Branding Moore a "propagandist" and nothing more is pretty much the same as labelling Bush as simply an election fraudster and recipient of corporate backhanders, it belittles the motivations behind the person's actions and draws attention away from more pertinent issues they are trying to address. If we can have a right-wing fundamentalist Christian in the White House and look past his character flaws, then surely a left-wing populist demagogue and rabble-rouser like Moore is needed to act as a counter-balance?

Moore may represent a biased and blinkered political standpoint, but so does Bush. Listen to both, make up your own mind, and then go read a book by Chomsky for god's sake!

Originally posted by Carmine
But what worries me more is the fact that some seem to resent the very fact that Moore exists at all. Asserting that he bites the hand that feeds him is not, in my opinion, really a valid criticism as the mass media is the only true forum on which one can put across such a message. Only the fact that Moore's political stance has been noisy, cantankerous and widely popular has led to his voice being heard. If it sells then the powers that be will want to make money out of it, that fact will never change.

Branding Moore a "propagandist" and nothing more is pretty much the same as labelling Bush as simply an election fraudster and recipient of corporate backhanders, it belittles the motivations behind the person's actions and draws attention away from more pertinent issues they are trying to address. If we can have a right-wing fundamentalist Christian in the White House and look past his character flaws, then surely a left-wing populist demagogue and rabble-rouser like Moore is needed to act as a counter-balance?

Moore may represent a biased and blinkered political standpoint, but so does Bush. Listen to both, make up your own mind, and then go read a book by Chomsky for god's sake!

GOOD POINTS WELL PUT!!!

Chav site is recommending this film !
Is there life down there after all ?

I have to admit I'm in two minds as to whether to see this or not. I saw Bowling For Columbine and it left me feeling distinctly uneasy - although there were a lot of very good points raised in it they seemed to get swamped by Moores showboating and sensationalism. I'm slightly worried that the same will be true of Farenheight 9/11. My presonal oppinion is that cinema documentries would actually have much more impact if presented in a low key 'non Hollywood' way and then the facts could speak for themselves. Personally I would rate Jeremy Hardy vs the Israeli Army as better than Bowling For Columbine, heretical as that may sound!

Ok this may be a good film, not seen it yet, but I for one can not see the point of clapping to a bloody film screen, when the recipient of the appluase is not there.

I applaude when there is somebody present to recieve the compliment.

So what is the point of this poll:loopy:

Why not just have a thread on how good the film is and comments from those that have seen it. That's what it appears to be turning into anyway.

Originally posted by mikey
Ok this may be a good film, not seen it yet, but I for one can not see the point of clapping to a bloody film screen, when the recipient of the appluase is not there.

I applaude when there is somebody present to recieve the compliment.

So what is the point of this poll:loopy:

Why not just have a thread on how good the film is and comments from those that have seen it. That's what it appears to be turning into anyway.

I was going to say more or less the same thing, but you beat me to it.

I've seen people clap at the end of a few films in the past, but they were usually the "luvvies" at advance screenings where, presumably, they thought they were being terribly cool by showing their approval for a film that the great unwashed had not yet seen.

With the film under discussion here, I suspect the only reason anyone would applaud an inanimate object (ie the screen) is to show just how "right on" and politically sound they are by hating George Bush.

Just like nearly everyone else in the world outside America, in fact.

In America and most countries in the far east people applaude and shout all the way through films!! in India when a hero appears on the big screen everyone shouts hooray and when the songs come on they get up and dance - imagine that happening at the UGC or Odeon :P we'd be thrown out!

When I went to watch it there was a huge cheer when Atta hit the first building

Originally posted by mikey
Ok this may be a good film, not seen it yet, but I for one can not see the point of clapping to a bloody film screen, when the recipient of the appluase is not there.

I applaude when there is somebody present to recieve the compliment.

So what is the point of this poll:loopy:

Why not just have a thread on how good the film is and comments from those that have seen it. That's what it appears to be turning into anyway.

I think people clap because it is a natural and spontanious expression of the energy and emotion they feel (that the film provoked in them).

If you don't feel any need or desire to clap .. then don't clap.

As for what is the point of the poll ... there isn't a point ... should there be?

I clapped because I strongly agree with many of the arguments Moore raised. JoePritchard how can you say he is biting the hand that feeds him? He wants to get his views across and the only way he can do it is via the media. Did you read "Stupid White Men" ? The American publisher who first agreed to do his book pulled out and tried to charge him. He had to come to Penguin in the UK to get it done.

Bush is a greedy, soulless idiot who frankly I think should be put under more scrutiny and investigated. It is an bsolute outrage what he has gotten away with. He should at least be tried for fraud with regard to the voting in the election.

It also makes me despair with Tony Blair as I know he is a smart man but he is being fingered by bush as his puppet.

Hi Red2,

Yes, I did read Stupid White Men. As I've said on numerous occasions the guy is excellent at what he does - creating propaganda to support his view of US society and mores.

My comment about 'biting the hand that feeds' is based on the fact that he has made a good pile of money form the his previous works - Bowling for Columbine, etc. - via some of the largest US Corporations. Whilst it's great for a film maker to make this sort of money, don't forget that Moore's current publisher is Warner Books - part of AOL - Time - Warner. His previous films have been distributed by Warner Brothers, and his current film is distributed via Disney. His advance for his most recent books was, I believe, somewhere in the region of 3 million dollars.

He'll also make, conservatively, around 3 million dollars from his latest movie - perhaps anyone talking about reaping profits from the Iraq war, should consider whether this can be viewed as a war related profit?

Moore has made his career and repoutation as a commentator on US affairs from the left. This is certainly needed - however, for that alternative viewpoint to be valuable it needs to be delivered with accuracy and care so that it CANNOT be disregarded purely as propaganda! And Moore is sloppy! There are numerous reports from across the media (not just right wing rags) that indicate factual inaccuracies, 'creative' editing and misquoting of interviewees by Moore in his films.

Whether or not Moore's heart is in the right place (and to me he has yet to prove it) it is CRUCIAL for him to put his truth over without the propagandist spin that he rightly criticies his opponents about. For unless that is done, any truths in his work WILL be lost in the propaganda.

Being denied publication or distribution is something that many film makers and authors of equal or superior ability to Moore have to confront. Although their stories may be equally important, unless they engage with the liberal sensibilities of much of the media they will not have the exposure that Moore has received.

Joe

Finally got round to seeing it last night. You either love Moore or hate him but you've got to agree that the subject does need raising by somebody. The thing is that America has Moore but the UK has no-one. Since "Hutton", the British media doesn't want to know. The only similar UK programme maker is Mark Thomas but even he's been quiet for the last year or two. But then again, Channel 4 is government owned, isn't it ?
Just think of the film that could be made after the release of the Butler report - Jack Straw knew that the 45 minute intelligence was garbage but forgot to mention it to Blair....... make a good plot for a Carry On film.

I went to see it on Saturday.I didn't clap because i don't see the point in clapping to a screen.I didn't like the fact that i was so obviously being played emotionally however i do think it is a film that should be seen by more people and if it can persuade any Americans to vote Democrat then it is a good thing.Some of the footage shown was very disturbing but i believe people need to see what is happening.I was shocked to find out that many of the Acts aren't even read before they are voted on and i am disgusted at Tony Blair who seems to follow Bush despite the latter obviously having an agenda that he will never swerve from.Of course one has to take the film with a pinch of salt but when listening to Bush one has to take a whole handful of the stuff. :D

Originally posted by sarah_d
I didn't like the fact that i was so obviously being played emotionally.

I agree with you, that is my major problem with most Hollywood films at the moment, they try and manipulate the way you feel without letting you deside for yourself on the strength of the story... i can see why Moore, and Hollywood do it, The American public are not used to subtly in movies.

It was rubbish in summery. His points were very weak and every single one of them could be argued against. Evidence was poor - just cos 2 old women in a bingo hall say things are true doesnt mean they are! I came out more pro-bush than i went in cos i kept imagining ways he could have defended himself against the stupid points being made. Its a hypocritical 'film.' No-one clapped at the end and im not surprised.

A film doesn't need to be made to make Bush look Stupid. The man can't even string an intelligent sentence together!! The part of the film in the house of representatives shocked me. How can that be propaganda?
A lot of the footage too, it isn't shown to us on the news, why not??
Footage of the soldiers, dispicable.

I would recommend that you see the DVD extras to make your mind up.

It was fun to watch, but lifes just not that black and white.

You don't just have a hero and a villan.

I think Mr Moore may have read to many comics as a child.

I don't know what's happened to Michael Moore. He used to have a TV show a few years ago.

The Awful Truth:

http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/theawfultruth/

It was witty, and scathingly funny. This was during the Clinton years, and he did one bit (after the Clinton/Monica Lewinsky scandal) where he went out on street corners asking random people what Hillary should do about her marital problems. The "advice" was hilarious.

In another, he went out looking to "find Hillary a new man." He asked about a dozen (single) men if they'd like a date with the First Lady, and only one guy said yes.

And he wanted to take Hillary to Burger King!

Did everyone know that there is no draft anymore in the US? Anyone who's in the military now...

signed up for it themselves?

No one forced them. No one made them or coerced them. Military service is purely voluntary. As in optional. As in, you don't have to if you don't want to.

While I sympathize with the military families and the soldiers, (my own father spent many years in the military) WHY would anyone sign up for military service...then complain when sent off to fight?!

IMHO, Michael Moore cost the Democrats the election.

:) Sierra

Originally posted by Gerry
Everybody should go to see this Michael Moore documentary.

Couldn't agree with you more. Despite being an avid Bush supporter I think it's a fantastic film that's well directed. I've bought it on DVD (grrrr.... and now C4 plan to screen it this month!)

Michael Moore is a very good at making documentaries, and I think he is excellent at saying his piece. Sometimes he comes off as overblown and too in your face in his fight against what he believes is evil. Still, I think whether your support him or not, there's no disagreeing that he is good at what he does.

I really don't think he cost the democrats the election though, if anything I think he helped highlight their cause to the wider world.

I saw Farenheit 9/11 at the cinema but I'll be watching it again on c4. It will be interesting to see how it comes across post election.

I own thw 2 DVD disc set and Bowling for Columbine double disc set.

These are interesting and largely fact based documentaries and are good for raising awareness.

They are a good warm up to some other, stronger and more shocking documentaries like `Painful Deceptions` and other works that are easily available on the net.

People all too easily cut them down as stupid conspiracy theories and even sometimes immoral to watch such material.

Although they do expose some rather interesting and worrying facts!

Much of these works is actually supported by Michael Moores efforts, although he is a little weaker.

As for clapping to a screen

:loopy: :loopy: :help:

Anyone know what day/time its on C4? I saw a preview of it being advertised but ive forgotten?! :suspect: Thanks

Originally posted by mr craig
From what i've heard its just left wing propoganda designed to make Bush look stupid (hardly difficult) and to make the Republicans look bad.
I go on quite a few forums which are based in the states and theres a lot of threads about F9/11. I'd say about 70-80% on people who post on them think Michael Moore is a complete ass-clown.

BTW, there is a TV & Moivie forum you know.

mr craig
could you let me know how to get on a forum in the us, i'm from there but don't know of any yet, like the one that thinks Moores an ass, as most americans see him as that as he is.

A lot of what Michael Moore does is putting certain facts in front of you, and he is usually quite clear about where the information has come from.

Yes, a lot of issues are more complex than he goes in to, but sometimes asking what may be considered "naive" questions has its merits.

Fair enough, if you are content just to dismiss everything he is bringing to your attention just because you don't agree with the conclusions he draws, then thats your lookout but I think listening to the opinions of people you don't always agree with might just give you a better perspective on the world.

Originally posted by Yodameister
.

Fair enough, if you are content just to dismiss everything he is bringing to your attention just because you don't agree with the conclusions he draws, then thats your lookout but I think listening to the opinions of people you don't always agree with might just give you a better perspective on the world.

Agreed!

"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all" ~Noam Chomsky~

Originally posted by JonJParr
it's a fantastic film that's well directed. I've bought it on DVD (grrrr.... and now C4 plan to screen it this month!)

Has it been shown yet?? . . Hope not!:(

Saw this for first time this week and found it very interesting and enlightening. I feel, like the OP, if anyone still hasn't seen it, then they should.

I'd never realised things like Halliburton, the military's catering providers, had come under criticism.

I thought there were some excellent quotes and pieces of wisdom to be found in the film, and if you have a son/daughter considering a military career, maybe they should see this first, and then see how they feel.

I also think the film deserves credit because it didn't shirk away from showing you the real horrors of war, the casualties and the dead on both sides, and the suffering that caused to their loved ones too.

I guess I was naive in not realising just what big business war is, and how many people will always be 'winners', in terms of big contracts.

It has convinced me more, that the war was wrong, and that many people were duped, including those that lost their life, which is very sad.