I gather from posts that quite a few people on here are somewhat left leaning politically and was just wondering if anyone would care to express any possitive opinions about countries which are/were Communist and try to convince others of their merrits.

Would you have liked to have lived in the Soviet Union or GDR for example and if so why? Please don't make trivial points such as the weather is nice in Cuba or whatever but stick to proper political points.

A trifle polemic.
One can be of the left in perspective without being blind to the horrors of soviet style totalitarianism, in just the same way that one could be of the right and reject in totality Nazism. Would I want to live in North Korea or Soviet Era Russia? Certainly not. Would I want to live in an economy such as Japan’s, which has been described as the most successful socialist country in the world? Yes, more so than in dog eat dog America.
I would consider myself left of centre and this means to me searching for a fairer, more egalitarian form of capitalism constrained by a liberal, global institutionalism.
This debate, given the end of the cold war, is somewhat redundant don't you think?

is left socialist or liberalist, the two aren't necessarily the same, i'm a liberal capitalist.

I know you can be left wing without being a Communist but there are still some people who still support Communism and would advocate a Communist country.

Also (and this is an interesting one) how much is/was Sheffield like a Communist country. Obviously not to the same extent or in all the same ways but what about when people say they would rather have steel works than Meadowhall and things like this? Isn't there just a tinge of the old eastern block mentality in this sort of comment. And look at some of Sheffield's architecture - some of it is remeniscent of that found in Communist states.

Well , Sid , I do live in a communist country at the moment -----China . I can't say how present-day China compares with the old regimes of E.Europe or the U.S.S.R. but it may be helpful to pass on some observations :---
One gets the impression that , ultimately , the Communist Party has the last word . However , in most aspects of life , they are not heavy-handed and one can go months or even years without being very much aware of party control .It's a bit like the Military in Turkey , which is officially a democracy but governments generally follow the " advice " of the Joint Military Council !
As you probably know , China is booming and changing very quickly and this leads to socio-economic problems [ particularly the living standards between the 800,000,000 rural population and the 400,000,000 urban popul;ation ]. Everything is on a huge scale and the government , by any measure , must have a tremendous and very complicated job. When you think about how certain African countries have coped with their problems of poverty , backwardness ......etc......one can only admire , in a lot of ways how the Chinese have largely " pulled themselves up by their own boot-laces " . This , by the way , is in the midst of flooding , typhoons , earthquakes and extremes of temperature .
The day-to day life is great , in my view ------and not just for ex-pats . The people are generally clean , friendly , hard-working and intelligent and the street-social life is fantastic ! Restaurants are full ,very low crime rate and an air of " going somewhere " ; rather like the U.K in the '60's . !

http://www2.wcc-coe.org/photo.nsf/htmllist/A1079-04.html/$FILE/1079-04.jpg

Just to illustrate the point the above photo was taken in east germany in 1991 but it could be the east end of Sheffield if you didn't know.

The day-to day life is great , in my view ------and not just for ex-pats . The people are generally clean , friendly , hard-working and intelligent and the street-social life is fantastic ! Restaurants are full ,very low crime rate and an air of " going somewhere " ; rather like the U.K in the '60's . !

In the cities maybe, what's life like in the dust bowl hinterlands?

And how's life if you happen to want to read the news on the net, or would like to suggest that maybe democracy would be a good way to govern the country?

In the cities maybe, what's life like in the dust bowl hinterlands?

And how's life if you happen to want to read the news on the net, or would like to suggest that maybe democracy would be a good way to govern the country?

That's when the secret police come a calling at 3am and it off to be
're-educated' with the help of rubber trunchions.

There has never been a communist country on this planet.
The USSR was Stalinist, and China was Maoist. Other countries were occupied by these two.
Niether of them bore any resemblance to communism.

There has never been a purely communist country. All communist states have been authoritarian, which is a tenant of the right.

Liberalism quite literally means liberty for all. That’s where liberalisms and the true left began.

Marxism is true communism and this is why the left is often associated with the left.

But the two major Communist countries Russia and China embrace Lenin’s version of communism, which is not at all compatible with the left. Totali

For example, Lenin's ideas about the importance of the Communist party – with its rigid hierarchy and extreme centralisation of power – were known as 'Marxist-Leninism', which became the state ideology of the Soviet Union. At their worst, under Stalin, such ideas became known as 'Stalinism', which justified tyranny, terror and a complete lack of civil liberties. The Soviet Union became a totalitarian state in which personal freedoms were subordinated to the orders of the party bureaucracy.

Totalitarianism and fascism are authoritarian ideologies, with a few people having all the power. This is a right wing doctrine.

Therefore the only Communist states should not be equated with the left.


Marx saw history as a struggle between classes, in which the bourgeoisie (or middle and upper classes) exploited the proletariat (or lower and working classes). They did this by owning the means of production (land, factories, banks) and paying the lowest possible wages while pocketing the most profit.

Marx believed that capitalism – which had gradually replaced medieval feudalism as the main economic, social and political system in Europe and the United States – contained the seeds of its own destruction because of the contradiction between its relentless drive for profits and the obvious social injustice of a rich few ruling over an impoverished many.

This last centence is incompatible with what happened in China and Russia.

Similarly, Maoism adapted Marxist ideas to China, a country in which the huge majority of the population were poor peasants and in which industry was very underdeveloped. Instead of waiting for the then embryonic industrial working class to make a revolution, Mao organised the peasants into soviets (local communities led by the Communist party) and took power in the countryside. In such cases, the left-wing liberality of Marxism soon became subordinate to the right-wing conservatism of practical politics.

Not that I support Marxism, but there is confusion by some people as to the link between what we believe Communism to be and the lefts link to Communism (which only exists through Marxism).

The reality is Russian and China are far closer to far right wing Leninism, than far left leaning Marxism.

So are their any on the right willing to defend Leninism, and totalitarianism seen in China and Russia?


(Source : http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/guide20/part07a.html)

Well seems like Castro's about to pop his clogs soon, thats one less.

There has never been a communist country on this planet.
The USSR was Stalinist, and China was Maoist. Other countries were occupied by these two.
Niether of them bore any resemblance to communism.

Dude, we made almost the same post! Nice one :)

whilst people bicker about definitions...ahem....

the way people live their lives in cuba is both compelling and repulsive for me.....

on one level, people really do think about others alongside themselves.....of course there are individuals who are selfish, but generally there is a true spirit of caring and sharing that is really very attractive. noticed this type of thing in vietnam also, altho more so in the south. gender equality too.

on another level....no freedom!! that's what people fight and die for past, present and future.....

can't really get a compromise it would seem....altho i hear that chavez is attempting some such thing in venezuela....and hoorah for the optimists!!

:D

I gather from posts that quite a few people on here are somewhat left leaning politically and was just wondering if anyone would care to express any possitive opinions about countries which are/were Communist and try to convince others of their merrits.

Would you have liked to have lived in the Soviet Union or GDR for example and if so why? Please don't make trivial points such as the weather is nice in Cuba or whatever but stick to proper political points.

No way would I live in a communist country. I want the oppurtunity to earn more money than others, have a big house in the country and so forth. And this would not be possible under communism because everyone has to be equal.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/images/30ddr/30ddr-1.jpg

Here is a nice bit of propaganda from East Germany. The caption translates as: All for human happiness. In reality of course it was a police state with low living standards. A good example of how Communism in practice is never what is promised by those who advaocate it.

Not at all sure what you’re getting at here, can’t say I’ve noticed too many revolutionary socialists around Sheffield Forum.

Well , Cyclone , I did say there was a big difference between the countryside and the cities , implying [ but , surely , I didn't need to spell it out ? ] that things were much tougher in the countryside . However , I feel sure that there are no starving people in China ,just poor , and deprived of our Western trappings .
Of course [ as I said ] the Party has the ultimate power and , indeed , it is difficult to imagine how it could govern at the moment by using democratic means . There has never been another example in human history of such a vast country having a revolution which replaced a non-democracy , racked by 14 years of war , occupation and civil war . Even Russia in 1917 didn't face such enormous problems .It now has a population [ despite the 'one child per family ' policy ] about 4 or 5 times that of America , is the same size as America , with many problems of climate .
I don't know much about their internet facilities but almost every Chinese family has access to an international t.v channel , foreign newspapers are available , lots of ex-pats floating around with [ as far as I can tell ] very little or no restriction , loads more Chinese students studying abroad and lots of foreign students studying in China , all cross-germinating ideas ; doesn't sound a lot like Stalinist Russia in fact .
There doesn't seem an awful lot of democracy [ by our standards ] in Africa and parts of S. America and even if there were , I guess most people who were starving to death , would give up their vote for a plate of noodles or rice , Chinese style .
Sid , unless one is blatantly anti-government or advocates the overthrow of the government , the only knock on the door you're likely to get here at 3 a.m. is someone inviting you to a party .
Life here is far from perfect but , for all its defects , I would say it is far pleasanter than in a lot of developing countries and far nicer in a lot of respects than in the U.K.

There has never been a purely communist country. All communist states have been authoritarian, which is a tenant of the right.

Liberalism quite literally means liberty for all. That’s where liberalisms and the true left began.

Marxism is true communism and this is why the left is often associated with the left.

But the two major Communist countries Russia and China embrace Lenin’s version of communism, which is not at all compatible with the left. Totali



Totalitarianism and fascism are authoritarian ideologies, with a few people having all the power. This is a right wing doctrine.

Therefore the only Communist states should not be equated with the left.




This last centence is incompatible with what happened in China and Russia.



Not that I support Marxism, but there is confusion by some people as to the link between what we believe Communism to be and the lefts link to Communism (which only exists through Marxism).

The reality is Russian and China are far closer to far right wing Leninism, than far left leaning Marxism.

So are their any on the right willing to defend Leninism, and totalitarianism seen in China and Russia?


(Source : http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/guide20/part07a.html)

economically though what is the difference between marxism and stalinism?

As far as I can tell the only difference is in the latter the head of state gets to torture and kill lots of people. But even with marxism the economy would have still ended up completely shafted. Unless there something fundamentally different in the economic policies of marxists and stalinists/leninists then communism seems unlikely to work and will just result in everyone being equally poor rather than equally rich.

hmm. wikipedia has a nice explanation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leninism

lenin seems basically to have believed a dicatorship was neccessary to bring people into line in order for communism to be the permanent state of a country.

more here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat

economically though what is the difference between marxism and stalinism?

As far as I can tell the only difference is in the latter the head of state gets to torture and kill lots of people. But even with marxism the economy would have still ended up completely shafted. Unless there something fundamentally different in the economic policies of marxists and stalinists/leninists then communism seems unlikely to work and will just result in everyone being equally poor rather than equally rich.

hmm. wikipedia has a nice explanation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leninism

lenin seems basically to have believed a dicatorship was neccessary to bring people into line in order for communism to be the permanent state of a country.

more here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat

Well the fundamental difference is that stalinists/leninists and marxism is that stalinists and leninists really just own everything and in practice the old marxist economic (doomed for failiure) tenant of everybody plays and equal role in society and they get paid the same goes out of the window. As can be seen in Russia where we have millionairs closely guarded by the ruling party. The same can be seen in China. The for the people in these states is rhetoric.

As you said Lenin and Stalin beleived the people must be controlled and that a ruling class knew better, which is fundamentally against Marx's version of communism.

The Marxist version is always doomed as there is no motivation for working a little harder. As you said people will always end up being poor.

Great book on that subject is Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. She lived in Russia and she wrote the book after moving to America. It basically lays out the difference between Communism and Captialism, although she uses a rather ideolistic version of capitalism (i.e no corruption) as a comparison. It's a big book in America, taught to most school children.

Well the fundamental difference is that stalinists/leninists and marxism is that stalinists and leninists really just own everything and in practice the old marxist economic (doomed for failiure) tenant of everybody plays and equal role in society and they get paid the same goes out of the window. As can be seen in Russia where we have millionairs closely guarded by the ruling party. The same can be seen in China. The for the people in these states is rhetoric.

As you said Lenin and Stalin beleived the people must be controlled and that a ruling class knew better, which is fundamentally against Marx's version of communism.

The Marxist version is always doomed as there is no motivation for working a little harder. As you said people will always end up being poor.

Great book on that subject is Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. She lived in Russia and she wrote the book after moving to America. It basically lays out the difference between Communism and Captialism, although she uses a rather ideolistic version of capitalism (i.e no corruption) as a comparison. It's a big book in America, taught to most school children.

Hang on. Russia is not communist now and the situation you describe is the present one, not the soviet one. In soviet times didnt *most* people earn the same and you maybe got a few perks like a slightly bigger flat if you rose a long way up the communist ranks? So perhaps the economy wasnt so different to marxism for the majority of people.

Some people have posted saying that the only reason for working is financial reward.
This is not always the case. Pride in ones achievements also is a great factor.
If someone is doing a job purely for money, the will do enough and no more.
If they are doing it for their own self esteem they will work very hard indeed.
In any organisation people will work harder so as to shine above the others, it is human nature.
In the Navy for instance the different watches compete against each other, for no other reason than to be the best, it is the same in the Army.
Money does not enter into it.
Even in the Stalinist labour camps competition was rife not only for an extra bowl of soup, or crust of bread, but for the pride of being the best team of workers. (they were given a special name, I forget what it was now)
A man who has no pride in who he is is a poor worker.

On the subject of labour camps I remember one very sad tale I read about.
A mother gave birth to a little girl they lived for three years in the most appalling conditions in a hut with other young mothers in Siberia, one stove in the middle of the room,rags at the windows etc. They were poorly fed and had just rags to live in.
When the little girl was three years old they had to move back into the labour camp proper which was a hell hole compred even to where the little girl was born.
After a few nights there the little girl collapsed crying, saying 'Mummy when can we go home again', by home she meant the freezing hovel she had spent the first part of her life in. It was luxury compared to where they were now.
If ever a people were betrayed by their leaders it was the revolutionary Russians

Just to add a slant on this; I have a friend who was brought up in Communist Romania. While joking with her one day about queuing for bread she told me that every 14/15 year old should queue for bread as it was a good lesson and taught you patience if nothing else.
She then added that she thought her childhood was pleasant and an overall good childhood. When she was growing up she said she heard and read lots of propaganda about the U.K and the U.S.A and how everyone was a drug addict, a prostitute and that the street were not safe. She likened this to the propaganda we heard and read about Communist Romania.

I`m afraid Communism, like its nemesis Fascism, destroys the rights of the individual. While I dont believe that we are totally free in this country, I do thank my lucky stars that I can think, believe and act the way I wish to live my life without breaking the law. I dont want to bow to anyone else`s will or beliefs, I will remain an individual all my life and this would have been crushed under Communism.

Well, it depends on how you see it. As culturally, people may be *very* reserved, and hence what people do here in the UK, can be seen as something very different abroad. 'Harmless flirting' or casual relationships will certainly be seen as promiscuous behaviours to those who were brought up as very reserved or religious.

I recall talking to a Korean friend about relationships, and she said she may like to get married now. I asked her whether she had met anyone she liked. She said 'no', but is considering the option of her parents arranging a marriage for her. I was surprised. As she has studied here before, and I thought she knew what people are like. In a way, I kind of expected her to be like me.

At the end of the day, it just got to show that culturally people are indeed different. If we rewind back time and go back to the swinging 60s. If people did not rebel against the government or the we didn't have a sexual revolution, do you think that UK won't have changed that much differently to other countries in terms of culture ?

Will I live in a Communist country ? I don't know. When people talk of politics, they immediately think of certain countries in mind. Though, I do understand what a few posters here have said by way of a definitive communistic country and the likes. I can't see myself living in China. I think I was asked this once before. I have no ties or link *to* China. My family had roots in HK. (Going back a few generation too, I've found recently.)

If the UK seriously is unstable, and I had to fear for my life, and my family's life. Then yes, I probably will consider moving to other countries and settling there. Somehow, I still think I will do what my parents generation have done. Which is to settle back to a place where I feel I have some roots.

Twice in my life have I felt like leaving this country for good, both times for Australia. The first time was was when I first left the merchant navy and had spent about four years on and off out there.
The second was at the worst excesses of Thatchers destruction of the country. I could see no future at all while she was in power, but we had just had our first child and decided to stay put.
That was one of worst errors I have made, she just continued to destroy, until we are just a nation of office workers, and fast food operatives.
The brave new world of Blair has proved to be as bad as she was.
But they have nothing left to destroy, apart from the Welfare state and that task is nearly complete.
Dont worry about communism, very soon we will be the next star on the stars and stripes.

I`m afraid Communism, like its nemesis Fascism, destroys the rights of the individual. While I dont believe that we are totally free in this country, I do thank my lucky stars that I can think, believe and act the way I wish to live my life without breaking the law. I dont want to bow to anyone else`s will or beliefs, I will remain an individual all my life and this would have been crushed under Communism.

technically economic communism doesn't require that individual rights be crushed. It's just that we haven't actually seen a real implementation (and probably never will).

For fictional communist societies, have a look at star trek (geeky though it is) that society is communist, money doesn't even exist and people do whatever work they are suited to do, everyone have their requirements provided for by the state... the perfect communist democracy.