It seems that every St George's Day the same old questions are wheeled out as to what our national identity means and what connotations are attached to a certain red and white flag...

But in the past few years it looks as though the tide has been turning and more and more has been made of the day on which we are supposed to celebrate the name of our patron saint who came from Turkey and slew a creature that never existed...

Is there anything more to patriotism in the UK than waving a flag and getting behind a football team every two years?

Should we look to the US as an example of a proud and upstanding nation of patriots, or a country that desperatly hugs a flag while its ideals are betrayed?

The question I want to ask is what defines patriotism to you as an individual?

And why?

Just wondered if anyone was aware St Patrick was born in Scotland???
A patron saint doesn't necessarily have to come from its adopted country
The myths associated with St George are no more ridiculous or unbelievable than the myths associated with other countries patron saints but no-one questions people celebrating St Paddies day..but thats another thing

Originally posted by wibbles
Just wondered if anyone was aware St Patrick was born in Scotland???
A patron saint doesn't necessarily have to come from its adopted country
The myths associated with St George are no more ridiculous or unbelievable than the myths associated with other countries patron saints but no-one questions people celebrating St Paddies day..but thats another thing

It could be argued that apart from in Ireland and New York city, the celebration of St Patrick's Day has more to do with Guiness than the eponymous saint...

Love of country; devotion to the welfare of one's country; the virtues and actions of a patriot; the passion which inspires one to serve one's country.

I'm not really into judging people on their nationality, religion, race etc.

xenephobia is as bad a racism as far as I'm concerned

I'm proud of the good things about my country of birth, and there are plenty, but patriotic enough to say what's wrong with it too (again there's plenty).

I'll wave my flag during sporting events same as every other nation involved. I feel ashamed for the few thugs who fight 'on our behalf' out in Portugal but never feel ashamed to be English.

St George didn't slay a dragon same as St Patrick didn't raise the dead or drive all the snakes out of Ireland.. its folklore, nothing more. It doesn't hurt anyone to put a name to a day of national celebration. We have St Patricks forced onto us so why not St George?

Don't be ashamed to be from where you're from.

AND welcome others.. which we don't always do well but do none the less.

Originally posted by wibbles
Just wondered if anyone was aware St Patrick was born in Scotland???
A patron saint doesn't necessarily have to come from its adopted country
The myths associated with St George are no more ridiculous or unbelievable than the myths associated with other countries patron saints but no-one questions people celebrating St Paddies day..but thats another thing

St Patrick's Day isn't really about the Saint himself, it's all about people with ANY connection to Ireland drinking copious amounts of draught or canned Guiness.

I'd agree with what's een said about patriotism being able to see the right and wrong in one's country.

You need to see the wrongs to improve it; I've never been a 'My country right or wrong' type but do feel that the English, particularly the middle classes / intelligentsia, have a total downer on themselves.

George Orwell wrote some very interesting stuff about how as far back as the 1930s it was trendy to damn English patriotism.

There are good and bad things to be said about the English - I'm half Welsh, btw - like any country. But to extend it further - the British as a whole seem to be ashamed of their past in an inordinate manner. Yes, Britain had an Empire. Yes, we did things back then that today we look back on and blanche. But in terms of good and bad deeds I think that bankrupting ourselves in the Second World War on the side of the good guys at least goes a long way to putting us on the side of the Angels.

Now, where did I leave my copy of Kipling and my Union Flag!

Joe

Originally posted by dylan_61
Love of country; devotion to the welfare of one's country; the virtues and actions of a patriot; the passion which inspires one to serve one's country.



dylan_61 has just answered for me:thumbsup:

It certainly dunt mean i put a lousy flag on my car for a month!!!
...Getting a lump in my throat when i hear the National Anthem...Thats patriotism.

Originally posted by cruella
It certainly dunt mean i put a lousy flag on my car for a month!!!
...Getting a lump in my throat when i hear the National Anthem...Thats patriotism.

Agreed cruella.

This view got a few people wanting to throttle me on another thread though.

Something about 'politics and football'.:(

Politics my arse...

Since when does politics have anything to do with football? :loopy:

Apart from when the likes of t020 turn a discussion about football into political debate?! :mad:

Originally posted by cruella
It certainly dunt mean i put a lousy flag on my car for a month!!!
...Getting a lump in my throat when i hear the National Anthem...Thats patriotism.

I get 'lump throated' when I hear Jerusalem and 'I vow to thee, my country'.

Joe

Originally posted by Rich
Politics my arse...

Since when does politics have anything to do with football? :loopy:

Apart from when the likes of t020 turn a discussion about football into political debate?! :mad:

Exactly Rich, that's what I'm getting at.

I think I referred to some of the flag wavers as 'pseudo-patriots' who will quite happily tear the flag up in disgust if England were to get knocked out. Someone then cried 'politics!'

The patriots amongst them though should proudly carry on waving their flags months after this is all over, irrespective of the outcome, for England in general, not just for the sport of football.

Originally posted by cruella
It certainly dunt mean i put a lousy flag on my car for a month!!!
...Getting a lump in my throat when i hear the National Anthem...Thats patriotism.

Patriotism is being picked to play football for you country and singing the national anthem.

Those that don't sing it should be dropped, then sent home.

Originally posted by Tony
Patriotism is being picked to play football for you country and singing the national anthem.

Those that don't sing it should be dropped, then sent home.

Yeah, dropped... From a great height, with NO parachute! :lol:

I'm proud that I teach my son not to cheat to win...

one thing i love about this country is the fact that we do criticise the system. The Americans criticise their system then praise the flag that Denys them the freedom they sing about. Christ am i glad we don't live in that kind of comedy. We get patriotic with the things that we love and enjoy, ie football, athletics, sailing (well in my case anyway). just because we don't agree with everything that happens in the country doesn't mean we're not patriotic. We have the freedom to shout about the things that we think are wrong. and to me that's what patriotism should be. having the freedom to moan about the things that we think bring our country down. Having the freedom to cheer about the things that bring our country together.

No country is perfect, and we have a right to point out the imperfections, and we have a right to sing the praises of what we think is good. I'm so grateful i'm British and not American.

http://www.42explore2.com/patriot.htm

Patriotism was still a love of one's country that included connections to the land and people, but then also included its customs and traditions, pride in its history, and devotion to its welfare.

Today most people agree that patriotism also involves service to their country, but many disagree on how to best perform such service. Some believe that the national government speaks for a country; therefore, all its citizens should actively support government policies and actions. Others argue that a true patriot speaks out when convinced that their country is following an unwise or unjust action.

So the essence is that to complain about the system and to criticise it is no way unpatriotic. It's not about politics and agreeing with who's in power. So Americans do criticise the system. The flag is what their country was founded on but it does not deny anybody anything? Where did that idea come from Andy78? Try learning American history and about the Star Spangled Banner before criticising who's patriotic and who's not! Be proud to be British but don't critcise those who are from a different country. Americans are proud to wave their flag. It doesn't take a football game every 2 years to show it either!

I have to say I'm not the least bit patriotic, I'm affraid. I can't bring myself to feel any kind of pride for a piece of land (or the people) on/in which I had no choice to be born. There are things I like about the country - but as far as waving a flag, and singing along to the national anthem goes, sorry, it's just not going to happen. As I've said before, I'll feel pride once we finally see this as "Our World" as opposed to "My Country" (although it's probably not going to happen in my lifetime, unfortunately).

Sorry, patriotism and national pride mean absolutely nothing to me.

I'd like to apologise for my above post. As funke pointed out it was very poorly thought out. It was more a case of me being drunk and ranting, as i all too often seem to do. Next time i wish to criticise, i'll try and post something a bit more intelligent. I really don't do myself any favours sometimes.

Originally posted by Hodge
I have to say I'm not the least bit patriotic, I'm affraid. I can't bring myself to feel any kind of pride for a piece of land (or the people) on/in which I had no choice to be born. There are things I like about the country - but as far as waving a flag, and singing along to the national anthem goes, sorry, it's just not going to happen. As I've said before, I'll feel pride once we finally see this as "Our World" as opposed to "My Country" (although it's probably not going to happen in my lifetime, unfortunately).

Sorry, patriotism and national pride mean absolutely nothing to me.

I feel the same Hodge. Also, I'm not proud to be British and would happily leave this country and become a citizen in a different country if I was afforded the chance. I'm not a fan of any of the British governments past or present and I'm quite anti-royal too. I feel they're just a waste of space and a bit of an embarrassment. Sorry all you Tories, Labour and Royalists.

Just my opinion. ;)

Edit: And I can't stand our national anthem. Who gives a sod about our Queen when all she does is spend tax payers money and moan about stuff? Surely we should be singing about the country rather than a boring figurehead who doesn't really do anything useful. </rant>

Originally posted by Tony
Patriotism is being picked to play football for you country and singing the national anthem.

Those that don't sing it should be dropped, then sent home.

You're joking right?

Are you saying you'd pick someone who sings the national anthem and plays poorly, instead of someone (like Wayne Rooney) who is more focused on winning the game than singing.

I know who I'd pick :mad:

Originally posted by Abdul
You're joking right?

Are you saying you'd pick someone who sings the national anthem and plays poorly,................

.......just like Eriksen did yesterday!!!!



:rolleyes:

For everything English visit Fly the Flag (http://www.flytheflag.net)
Pride in country, like pride in family, should be a force for the good and is something that should come naturally to all of us. The fact that it doesn’t seem to come naturally to many Englishmen and women is a cause of sadness. Perhaps we need to remind ourselves of the words of a great Englishman, William Shakespeare, who wrote of England –

“This Royal throne of kings, this scepter’d isle,
This earth of majesty………………………...
This other Eden, this demi-paradise…………
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea……..
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm,
This England.” (Richard II)

Patriotism: Shakespeare style.

patriotism means, I think, being proud of your nation's acheivements and still being proud when it doesn't work out the way you'd hoped.
Not wreaking havok like those 'English football fans' did to the Portugese pub and restauraunt owners.

Originally posted by markham
.......just like Eriksen did yesterday!!!!



:rolleyes:

Not sure where you are going with this one?

Patriotism is a virtue of the aggressive