Last night my 14 year old daughter was put through an horrific ordeal at a church youth group. She regularily goes to the group although we are not church goers ourselves. I know most of the people involved and felt happy that she would be safe and well looked after there.

She came home last night shaking, and burst into tears immediately. It turns out that during the service/meeting, a group of people had burst in dressed in black, with masks, brandishing baseball bats and guns. One came to her and put, to all intents and purposes, a gun to the middle of her head and ordered her to get on her hands and knees in the middle of the floor. Others were similarly threatened and many were visibly terrified.

Eventually, they let them go and took off their masks to reveal thay were a group of young people who they knew from the group.

It was then explained to them that this was the reality of what Christians all over the world suffered, being persecuted for their religious beliefs. They wanted to make it 'real' to the kids.

WTF???!!!

I am so angry that this happened. I called the guy in charge (who is also a teacher) and he seemed to think I was being unreasonable! He kept telling me to 'back off' and that I was wrong to be angry and blame him. He said that kids need to know about the harsh reality of life!!

Do you think I am being unreasonable here or over reacting about this? What would you do? And how can I hold this man responsible/accountable for his actions?

They sound like a bunch of absoulte nutters. If i was you i'd take this further than posting on here, contact the Star or something with your story.

Chris.

I spoke to the Vicar at the church who was under the impression that the kids were told before hand that it wasn't real. My daughter wasn't told anything of the sort or I doubt she would have been so scared.

One of my points was that if they had burst into a bank and done that the lot of them would have been arrested and charged with whatever. I was in two minds last night whether to call the police about it but didn't want to look an idiot.

If the teacher won't do anything I think you should go over his head to his boss and complain VERY loudly, granted the whole thing was designed to teach kids about the reality of life, but this seems to have gone WAY too far in my opinion, you send your Daughter to the Church group knowing she's going to be safe with people she knows and is safe with, and then something like that happens?!

I'd be baying for blood if it happened to any kid of mine!

So yes, I'd say definitely persue this, as the welfare of your Daughter takes priority over some retarded stunt by the Church group, no matter how well intentioned it was it still needlessly caused her great distress, which just isn't on IMO.

Hope I've been helpful :)

kids learn enough about the harsh reality without idiots like this putting the fear of god into them.
Does he realise that this sort of fear could potentially have have a lasting effect on them.
I think his position as a teacher should be questioned. They are supposed to be there for the kids' wellfare, aren't they?
I wonder what the head of his school would make of his methods.:loopy:

I agree with Chris, that sounds awful. If it was frightening enough to have your daughter react like that then it probably went too far. Have you spoken to any other parents of kids who go there? Did their children feel similarly scared?

Presumably this guy is accountable to some body, like the parish committee or the vicar? Maybe you could approach them. You might be able to stop something similar happening again.

They were brandishing firearms, whether real or not, so i'm sure the police would have taken you seriously.

Chris.

Well as I said, I spoke to the Vicar about it and he was very apologetic. He says he will talk to the group who did the "scene" and give them some feed back about it and get back to me.

They guy in charge (the teacher) spoke to my daughter on the phone and she was in tears. He kind of apologised but I don't feel that is enough. He asked me what I wanted him to do, but what can he do? The damage has already been done.

If someone robs a bank, brandishing a fake gun, they would get the same sentance as someone who had a real gun. The law does not differentiate between the two.

It is still not too late to go to the police - I would!!

I think if you contacted the police regarding this matter then the group would probably find that they have comiited a crime. I beleive that just the fact that they have used a replica gun could land them in court but they could also be responsible for threatening behaviour. If this was my child I wouldn't let this go. I hope your daughter is feeling better now.

That's awful FF.

It would be VERY simple for me. I would call into the Police Station adn make a formal complaint and insist that they prosecute. It won't happen twice.

This teacher needs to be introduce to the harsh realities of life inside a cell at West Bar for the night with a few burly Policemen frightening him!!

These people are total nutters... and the religious ones are the worst because they think they have God on their side so they must be right.

What on earth might they do next time?

Cretins. :loopy: :loopy: :loopy:

Originally posted by draggletail
If someone robs a bank, brandishing a fake gun, they would get the same sentance as someone who had a real gun. The law does not differentiate between the two.

It is still not too late to go to the police - I would!!

I would second that!!

I'm sure that they do not do this sort of thing in schools so why should churches be allowed to do this????

I would most certainly go to the police. Children do not need this sort of trauma. Childhood is about innocence and protecting them not violence!!!! I'm pretty sure that the church do not and should not use tactics like this to teach the young.

I'm angry just reading your post.

HHmmmm the 9 o'clock service was a religious group.

One last thing:

It's true about fake weapons etc. I work in a bank and if someone came in with real or fake weapons they would face the same charges.

If anyone is brought to book for this, the courts should throw the book at them to make an example of why stuff like this just SHOULDN'T happen!

Cos although the teacher and the group didn't lay a finger on your Daughter, what they did is tantamount (did I spell that right?) to child cruelty, ie causing needless distress to your child.

I'm ranting, but I strongly feel nothing but sympathy for FF and her Daughter in this case, and feel that the teacher in question should be punished to the highest extent possible.

exactly ,

If he is a teacher and I found out he was teaching at my childrens school I would be very unhappy about this.

Where does he teach?????

My daughter seems to think that this good "christain" man teaches PE at either Bradfield or Myers Grove but don't quote me on that!!

Call the police , honestly. I would hate to think that this man has any powers over children and I am sure that other parents would agree and be horrified. You can always do it and ask them not to mention your name if you fear any comeback.

Originally posted by FetishFairy
My daughter seems to think that this good "christain" man teaches PE at either Bradfield or Myers Grove but don't quote me on that!!

If he teaches at Myers no wonder he's an idiot, that school breeds more chavs than any other school on the planet IMO.

It used to be good, until they started importing chavs from other areas by enlarging the catchment area for it :loopy:

This is utterly bizarre.

The organsisers could easily be in BIG trouble with the police, and are probably quite lucky that no one saw them. SO19 are rather quick off the mark about people dressed in a paramilitary fashion brandishing firearms.

Time to find a new place of regular worship.

One definition of 'terrorism' is the use of force or the threat of force to incubate a sense of fear and...well....terror...in the populous. these f***ing maniacs have clearly done that in spades.

If nothing else, threaten to sue the idiots. IMHO, this was nothing to do with furthering Christian worship, more to do with someone getting off on a nasty ego trip.

I hope that the victims recover from their fright quickly - it would have scared the daylights out of me.

Joe

I am absolutely shocked and dismayed at this. Apart from confirming my belief that far too many bad things are done 'in the name of God', I think you shoul contact the police IMMEDIATELY and find out where this nutter works and alert the school. My mum also works at Myers (poor woman), and I know she'd be disgusted if this man was allowed in the vicinity of the kids there - the ones she teaches are asylum seekers who have fled from gang violence.

He needs taking out of sunday school for good and possibly investigated into his suitability as a teacher. He obviously has no comprehension of where the line should be drawn.

Absolutely unacceptable.

I agree with the other posts call the police, it's a disgrace.

If it had been my daughter I would have seriously considered putting the guy responsible in hospital.

Of course I would never actually do such a thing :twisted:

Yes, please, please, please call the police about this. If he is willing to do something this frightening to show the "harsh realities" of life to the children, what else might he be willing to do? There are a lot of horrific things that go on in the world, and if he isnt stopped now, he could just work his way through each one of them, exposing the children to worse and worse abuse - this is abuse - until a child is seriously hurt or worse.
Please do something official about this now, and get him put in prison before he does anything further. This actually smacks of paedophilic behaviour - encouraging children to dominate other children and frighten them. What else is he capable of doing? He certainly shouldn't be allowed around children at all. Don't be scared to report this - I hate to draw a comparison, but look at all the young girls who came forward after Ian Huntley was convicted. He could have done this before, and he'll certainly do it again, as he obviously sees nothing wrong with this sort of behaviour.
Also, the christian church really doesnt need people like this working for them or in the name of them - they have enough problems already. The vicar should stand up to his responisbilities and support you fully.

Good luck, and let us know how things go.

After reading all your responses and talking to other people, I did indeed call the police about what had happened. They were shocked and disgusted at it but decided that no criminal act had been committed. As it was an organised activity and people within the group knew what was going to happen they, in the eyes of the law, did nothing wrong.

Everyone I spoke to at the police were really shocked about it but alas, we can do nothing about it. They suggested contacting the vicars superiors, who I assume is the Bishop and maybe the education department as the man in charge is a teacher.

I feel really let down and wish there was something more I could do. I would hate to think that this would be allowed to happen again and more kids be terrified.

Thanks to everyone who responded.

Is it any wonder the police in South Yorkshire have been found to be some of the worst in the country?
Done nothing wrong? He has traumatised, terrified and upset young children. Go to the newspapers and let as many people know as possible that this sort of thing is going on. I would image that the vast majority of people will be on your side and you never know, something might eventually be done about it.
I'd also write to the council and to anyone else you can think of. I know it's tiring and difficult, but the more people you make aware of this incident, the more likely the police will pull their fingers out of their arses and do something.

Originally posted by FetishFairy
After reading all your responses and talking to other people, I did indeed call the police about what had happened. They were shocked and disgusted at it but decided that no criminal act had been committed. As it was an organised activity and people within the group knew what was going to happen they, in the eyes of the law, did nothing wrong.

Everyone I spoke to at the police were really shocked about it but alas, we can do nothing about it. They suggested contacting the vicars superiors, who I assume is the Bishop and maybe the education department as the man in charge is a teacher.

I feel really let down and wish there was something more I could do. I would hate to think that this would be allowed to happen again and more kids be terrified.

Thanks to everyone who responded.

This really is not right, is it
To paraphrase above (police) "people within the group knew what was going to happen they, in the eyes of the law, did nothing wrong."

But as you said earlier, your daughter did not know what was about to happen, did she (as part of the 'group')

You cannot terrorise children like this, the teacher has 'lost the plot' and should be accoutable

Personally I think everyone concerned should do their best to publicise this disgrace in some way.

Possibly starting with someone in the greystones area...

I'm totally horrified by this thread.

My sister was held at gunpoint 11 years ago in a shop she was working in. It transpired that the gun was a fake but since my sister didn't know this at the time it made no difference to her perception of what was going on. Pretty much like your daughter.

To cut a long story short she was heavily traumatised & eventually went for counselling ( I'd go & see your GP over this because I suspect you're going to be living with the after effects of this for a while to come :().

Being told 'it wasn't real' afterwards didn't mean she was suddenly the same person as she was before it all happened (oddly enough!) It affected her work, home & social life. It affected the rest of us too as we tried to understand what she'd been through. Not that it is possible, I think, unless you've actually experienced it yourself.

I'd like to see how that "teacher" would find himself dealing with a similar scenario to the one he put your daughter through.

I realise that in your situation the police maybe limitted in what they can do but I'd be tempted to get some other legal advice as even if there is nothing they can do under criminal law maybe you can look at the possibility of a civil case.

As a teen I went to a Christian youth club with some strange leaders myself ( go & 'witness' to people at chucking out time on a Friday night outside a pub that local police had regular problems with & Christ will protect you if you have faith :rolleyes: ) I thought this was bad enough but it's nothing in comparison to what your daughter's been put through.

I agree with LittleWitch about kicking up a stink - contacting the local papers is a good idea ( contacting the Bishop isn't such a lame idea - that Vicar also needs some serious 'guidance' by the sounds of things!) I'd certainly contact the education authority too but maybe a solicitor will be able to give your situation more weight. (If they are acting on your daughter's behalf then I *think* she'd be entitled to legal aid ). Contacting some of the other parents of children who were also present to see if they will add their voice to yours may also help.

I'm amazed this man is a teacher - he sounds like he needs serious psychiatric assessment to me.

I too think that you need to kick up an almighty stink on this if the Police don't get interested fast.

I would go higher - to the Headquarters and the Chief Constables Office. A crime was comitted against your daughter even if everyone else knew, which sounds unlikely.

Then make a phone call backed up by a letter to the Headteacher concerned, and the Bishop of Sheffield.

Be prepared to take out a private prosecution if required. The national press would be very interested in such a bizzare story, and you should make sure that the Police and the Education Dpt know this.

It sounds like there will be other parents and children in your position after that night - maybe your daughter can provide a few names?

Don't give up! :thumbsup:

I have been trying to look at this situation from all sides, without making pronouncements about the teacher, hoping against hope that this was an isolated error in judgement. But we don't have all the facts, not that I agree with what was done to your daughter in ANY respect.

This happened to me a few years ago, my church group was having a concert and a group of youths just burst into the church shouting and brandiishing what appeared to be weapons, but a) they did not attack anyone personally and b) the entire thing lasted for about 4 mins...if that long, however this was long before September 11th, the message was the same - persecution of christians, but it was not personalised. That was horrid, and I think if the teacher had spoken to you daughter before she left, she would still have not been traumatized.

Were other children also traumatized? Can't you [the adults] get together and state exactly what your demands are - just kicking up a stink is not enough. As I said, I don't know if this is an isolated error in judgement, but his decision to do this, was WRONG. Even if your daughter didn't know, there should be no way that an individual attack like this should have been sanctioned on anyone!! I think you should insist that Sir apologizes to the children, and is asked to step down. Get your daughter some help and send her to another Christian group. Don't belabour the point because it might end up doing her more harm than good.
I sincerely hope she gets stronger, and feels better soon.

I don't want this very important thread to go off topic, but how exactly do Christians get persecuted to the extent that this sort of behaviour is even considered?

Let's be honest, it's usually the Christians doing the persecuting, so how is this 'terrorism' supposed to reflect anything that Christians suffer? It sounds more like an indoctrination technique (brainwashing if you will) to me. I have to say that I find this whole episode rather disturbing.

For once Tony I agree with you.

I think it's probably a historical reference. Sts Paul, John, Peter, Stephen et al.

Alternatively, it might refer to sectarian violence in NI.

Christians may well expect such incidents in parts of Nigeria and Pakistan but I'm not sure what that has to do with living in Sheffield.
This young girl's life was threatened and she has been assaulted. The police are a disgrace.....of course an offence has been committed.
This idiot should be sent to Nigeria or Pakistan as a missionary.

Tony, sanman,

WIthout wishing to deviate from the topic....

There ARE documented examples of Christians being bombed and shot at whilst going to worship in some predominantly Muslim countries. I seem to remember an incident in Pakistan not too long ago. In the recent bloodbath in Saudi Arabia, people were separated out for being non-Muslim before being put to death - this is different - here people were killed for not being Muslim rather than being Christian, but I guess it shows that persecution in the name of religion does take place against Christians and others.

There have also been cases of Christians being persecuted in pre-1990 Eastern Block countries, and in present day PRC (People's Republic of China).

And, of course, there are also cases of Christians doing the same against non-Christians - I just hate it when folks blame Christians for stuff without acknowledging that the other folks are just as bad.

It does happen, but the guy is still a horse's arse who should be dealt with by due process of Law / disciplinary procedures.

Joe

Worryingly, this seems to have been designed to produce some kind of rabid paranoia, and make these young people think that everyone is out to get them, and they could be harmed at any time. The worst that Christians have to put up with in this country is people being rude to them if they try to evangelise their beliefs. Well boo hoo, I think they deserve it. Even in areas of longstanding conflict, like Nigeria and Indonesia, the Christians are as much to blame as enyone else. This not only has upset your daughter, it seems to be part of a warped world view.

I've been thinking about this all morning. :confused:

It is nothing more than brainwashing technique & and I don't use that term lightly.

These people are evil - and I don't say that lightly either. :mad:

It's all rather redolent of the Sunday Service and the Rev Chris Brain who ended up in jail IIRC. It stinks.

Maybe the NSPCC might be able to help FF? They will probably take it more seriously and should have quite a bit of muscle with the various authorities.

In reply to JoePritchard:

There are indeed cases of persecution of Christians, but it is just as likely to go the other way, or as sectarianism, which is even more ridiculous. many Muslim countries have quite good relations with their minority faiths, like Iraq (pre-war), Egypt and Syria.

And as a minor point, one of the men killed by the kidnappers in Saudi Arabia had converted to Islam more than 20 years earlier. They did not seem to be targeting Christians, but all foreigners. Several Indians were also killed, who were probably not Christians, though I am not sure.

In any case, these kids are unlikely to live in any of these places. The whole thing seems to have been designed to produce an 'us against teh world' mentality. What a load of brainwashing cobblers.

I agree with those who say they seem like a bunch of nutters. I thought Christian were supposed to be about the love of Christ or whatever. This seems a very funny way of showing it.

Personally I am not a church goer. I take the view that it is safer to believe in God than not to, but don't let it rule me. I don't have a problem with those who are religious but wish they wouldn't push it down your throat.

The man who runs this group isn't God and has no more right to believe he speaks for God than anyone else in the world. Neither is he above the law. I believe there are laws about replica fire arms and he may have broken some of them. So yes, it could well be a police matter.

threatening someone, with or without a weapon or replica weapon is assault.
If whoever you spoke to at the police station refused to investigate you should suggest that you wish to make a formal complaint against the police or speak to a superior.
It is possible to use simulated violence and replica or real weapons for training purposes, but it has to be with the full knowledge and agreement of the parties concerned.

i cannot believe that this has happened. firstly id be interested in what "church" this is, and what kind of Christianity?!?!?! Im a Christian myself and it disgusts me when things like this happen. This kind of thing would NEVER happen at my church, its all about being happy, and being safe. Please dont let this give you the wrong idea about Christians, i would never do this to a little girl or anyone for that matter. Really sorry this has happened to you FF. The police are a disgrace I think this is a bit of a generalisation really. They arent a disgrace, ive had to call the police out a few times recently, the most recent because i got burgled and they turned up STRAIGHT away, were very supportive, and are still giving ongoing support. Its like everyhing, you find you get bad services from everyone and everything now and again.

really hope your kids alright FF :( i cant imagine how scared she is now.

Mimi
x

Went on this thread at school.

My friend Danielle is also horrified....by the way....

She says: Beat the evil people with a large stick.

maybe you should forgive him and.. like.. pray or something?

maybe you should hang around in a Parson's Cross pub for a while and arrange for some nice men to burst into the guy's house and put a gun to his head? To teach him about the realities of life, of course.

Edit: that's not serious.. just in case the guy gets found dead next week and I get the blame...

Sorry to hear about them traumatising your daughter. This group sounds pretty misguided to me..

Sorry I haven't commented on the many responses to this thread but in true Telewest style, our broadband connection has been on and off for the last few days.

To update and make a few comments .............

My mum, who goes to the same church where this all happened, spoke to the vicar last night. He has discussed the whole incident with the guy in charge and the group of young people involved in doing the 'scene'. He gave them the go ahead to do it but stressed that no guns, be them replicas or what ever should be used. They went against this and made fake guns to use. They all admit that they went too far and didn't take into consideration the emotions or personal backgrounds of anyone in attendance. They admit they overstepped the mark.

They guy in charge (the teacher) called my mum to discuss it and said that with hindsight, they did go too far and he was sorry. Has he called us to apologise? Has he F***!!

Apparently, he is a fairly new convert to Christianity and is a little too enthusiastic! Does that excuse him? I think not.

My mum told the vicar that I had called the police and they are all lucky they didn't get arrested. She also told him that unless I am satisfied with the outcome, IE:.. proper apologies and an assurance that they will stop doing, this full stop, I will go to that papers. I also stated that I think the guy in charge is unfit to be in a position of such authority and should be stopped from running the group.

I do have some sympathy with the vicar as he stated his case quite clearly to them and they went against his orders, so I don't really blame him so much. I do however blame the man in charge who should now be stopped from running the group.

My daugher is feeling ok now but it really did frighten her in a huge way. Thanks to everyone who has offered support about this, it really is appreciated such a lot.

The spirit of the Crusaders, the Inquisition etc clearly lives on even today!

My god! After reading this thread I really feel like going out and persecuting some christians... or in your case, the least you should be able to do is prosecute them. I'm clueless when it comes to british laws, but you'd think that threatening someone with a firearm (real or fake) would be considered a serious offence.

I don't understand what this whole exercise was supposed to achieve - was it designed to reinforce their christian faith by scaring them into thinking that christianity provides some kind of security in an evil world - or was it an example of the obstacles a christian is going to face and they should be resolute when someone tries to undermine their beliefs??!! I'm trying to understand the motivations behind such a stupid act but I can't find any reason to threaten someone with a gun - it makes me so angry to think that some f*@kwit would do that to children!

You should do some research into post traumatic stress disorders and the ways such an incident could affect someone because even though your daughter may seem fine now, there are so many ways that her reactions may manifest themselves - terrible things rarely just fade away......

Contact Sheffield Local Education Authority (LEA) now - my parents are teachers down south and are horrified...

What you need to do is burst into his house about 3am wearing a balaclava and brandishing a machete and start swishing it around his room yelling like mad & coming to a blunt stop just before it slices his head off.

Make him sweat for a while and then take your balaclava off and tell him to go make a cup of tea, say that everyone you talked to about this 'scene' knew it was gonna take place so it's ok.

Originally posted by Lestat
What you need to do is burst into his house about 3am wearing a balaclava and brandishing a machete and start swishing it around his room yelling like mad & coming to a blunt stop just before it slices his head off.

Make him sweat for a while and then take your balaclava off and tell him to go make a cup of tea, say that everyone you talked to about this 'scene' knew it was gonna take place so it's ok.

Funny you should say that ......... one of my arguaments when I first spoke to him on the phone was exactly that. What if me and my partner and assorted friends burst into his house in the middle of the night and threatened him and his wife. He said it was hardly the same. My point was that for hundreds of people who get in to trouble with loan sharks and drugs dealers, that is their realilty and maybe he should experience some of that.

As for contacting the education department, it wasn't anything to do with a school activity and he does it in his own spare time so I am not sure what involvement they could have.

Originally posted by FetishFairy
Funny you should say that ......... one of my arguaments when I first spoke to him on the phone was exactly that. What if me and my partner and assorted friends burst into his house in the middle of the night and threatened him and his wife. He said it was hardly the same. My point was that for hundreds of people who get in to trouble with loan sharks and drugs dealers, that is their realilty and maybe he should experience some of that.

As for contacting the education department, it wasn't anything to do with a school activity and he does it in his own spare time so I am not sure what involvement they could have.

He's a teacher, therefore he should be accountable to his bosses regardless of whether his actions were extra-curricular or what.

Yes, any involvement this psycho has with children in his own time that's as warped as this would be of great interest to the education authority and his school. Do you think a school would allow a known paedophile to continue teaching children, just beacuse he's never done anything in school time?