http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/5125810.stm

Can you believe that this goes on in 'modern' India ?????

Initially, I was under the impression that it would be the illiterate and backward families who didn't want a girl, however....

It is not only in the countryside that daughters are unwanted. Middle class, educated women are often at the front of the queue to terminate.

Z

girls are often killed at birth.

Utterly appaling this practise is still done cant comprehend the logic behind it. :rant:

Not much to say but it is past me how anyone could drown their own baby.

Utterly appaling this practise is still done cant comprehend the logic behind it. :rant:

I think the logic is quite simple and easy to understand. Girls end up costing money. Boys end up making money. In essence, a boy is a pension fund and a girl is a burden. I can't say I like it much but I can easily understand it. It looks very bad because you see the overall numbers, if you looked at one family instead and saw their personal circumstances and why they did it then thinks might also be clearer.

Not India but, have you read anything about the Rat children?

I think the logic is quite simple and easy to understand. Girls end up costing money. Boys end up making money. In essence, a boy is a pension fund and a girl is a burden. I can't say I like it much but I can easily understand it. It looks very bad because you see the overall numbers, if you looked at one family instead and saw their personal circumstances and why they did it then thinks might also be clearer.
If women were permitted the same education and the same opportunity to work, this need not be the case :mad:

Girls end up costing money. Boys end up making money. In essence, a boy is a pension fund and a girl is a burden.

:thumbsup:

My post isn't very explanatary but i meant some thing along the lines of

past me how anyone could drown their own baby.

The fact that the middle classes and upper classes also appear to be just as guilty paints a different picture than the one of simple economics...

Z

Not India but, have you read anything about the Rat children?

Microcephalic (http://www.insightnewstv.com/d05/)
Amazing :(
Sorry Zafar not trying to hijack your thread.

This disgusts me, how can you do that!!??

xxx

Microcephalic (http://www.insightnewstv.com/d05/)
Amazing :(
Sorry Zafar not trying to hijack your thread.
Not sure about amazing, unless youmean amazing that parents would sell their babies to enable this?

I think its an appaling practice, but its something that has been ingrained into the social conscience of these people. You canot blame someone for something that they have been brought up to believe, in this case, that women are less important and less profitable then men.

Not sure about amazing, unless youmean amazing that parents would sell their babies to enable this?

Amazing:( and not Amazing:D

:thumbsup:

My post isn't very explanatary but i meant some thing along the lines of

I think I know what you meant, I was just pointing out that rather than defying logic, it is logic that is the problem. The most logical thing to do is to not have girl babies or to kill them. It may be terrible, but it also terribly logical.

Amazing:( and not Amazing:D
A friend of mine went to make a film about this some years ago and it was very disturbing. The rat children are not born with the condition but are locked away for a number of years with devices attached to thier heads in order to shape them this way and retard them. When the process is complete they are then sent out to beg. People must not refuse to give to these children as the heads of faith instill in everyone that they are "close to God".

And 'feminism' is seen as a dirty word. :rant:

I read a few weeks ago that the cultural pressures are so strong that even in this country, women from some cultures want to find the sex out to terminate girls. Technological advances in sex prediction threaten to aid this discriminatory practice.

Cool-headed rationales about economics are only part of the story. Culturally, females are seen as inferior, or even worthless, in many many parts of the world. Female infanticide has been a disaster in China also, due to the one-child policy. Now men can't find wives there either, because of the mass cull of unwanted females.

I think in this country generally we have now reached genuine parity in terms of whether expectant mothers want boys or girls. I for one feel relief and pride that we've achieved that.

This might sound mad, but.... given the lack of girls available to marry the number of males as a result of this practice, would a solution be..... a man cannot lawfully marry unless he has a sister?.....

Think about it for a second before shooting me down in flames ;)

Microcephalic (http://www.insightnewstv.com/d05/)
Amazing :(
Sorry Zafar not trying to hijack your thread.

No Probs, it is kind of related :thumbsup:

Z

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/5125810.stm

Can you believe that this goes on in 'modern' India ?????

Initially, I was under the impression that it would be the illiterate and backward families who didn't want a girl, however....



Z


I'm just amazed that your all AMAZED! is it the first time you've heard of this ? it's been going on forever, in other countries too...really, this cannot be NEWS to you!

A friend of mine went to make a film about this some years ago and it was very disturbing. The rat children are not born with the condition but are locked away for a number of years with devices attached to thier heads in order to shape them this way and retard them. When the process is complete they are then sent out to beg. People must not refuse to give to these children as the heads of faith instill in everyone that they are "close to God".


I heard something similar about the Huns. Babies had straps wrapped around their heads from birth which would result in their heads being elongated.

I think the heads of faith say what they say in order that the children dont get labelled as 'evil'. In the Indian sub-continent there is a very black and white approach i.e. Something is 'good luck' or 'bad luck'.

Z

wasn't this the case with smallpox too?

Nobody wanted the smallpox vaccine when it was invented because poc marked faces were a sign of being touched by God (or something :suspect: )

Microcephalic (http://www.insightnewstv.com/d05/)
Amazing :(
Sorry Zafar not trying to hijack your thread.
And they call us infidels....

:|

And they call us infidels....

:|

Not in India they don't.

Hey Zafar - is this an underhanded way of starting an anti-India thread? You know this happens in Pakistan too - more so in fact.

Apologies if I'm wrong.

I heard something similar about the Huns. Babies had straps wrapped around their heads from birth which would result in their heads being elongated.

I think the heads of faith say what they say in order that the children dont get labelled as 'evil'. In the Indian sub-continent there is a very black and white approach i.e. Something is 'good luck' or 'bad luck'.

Z

But these are normal babies at birth and are sold to be treated this way? Why would the heads of faith want to protect them, there wouldn't be anything to ptotect against if they had been left with thier parents to live a normal life.

If women were permitted the same education and the same opportunity to work, this need not be the case :mad:

Verily. Verily.

And 'feminism' is seen as a dirty word. :rant:

I read a few weeks ago that the cultural pressures are so strong that even in this country, women from some cultures want to find the sex out to terminate girls. Technological advances in sex prediction threaten to aid this discriminatory practice.

Cool-headed rationales about economics are only part of the story. Culturally, females are seen as inferior, or even worthless, in many many parts of the world. Female infanticide has been a disaster in China also, due to the one-child policy. Now men can't find wives there either, because of the mass cull of unwanted females.

I think in this country generally we have now reached genuine parity in terms of whether expectant mothers want boys or girls. I for one feel relief and pride that we've achieved that.

Parity in that if we have a girl it isn't seen as a *bad* thing. I'm the very proud father of three girls and no sons, and quite frankly I don't care; they're all perfect to me as my babies (ok, they're 13, 6 and 2, but will ALWAYS be my babies :) )

Equality isn't there yet, but it's a lot closer .......

In Ireland we have a phrase which says "It takes a REAL man to father a daughter."

And they call us infidels....

:|

Who do? The microcephalic people? The Indians? Your next-door neighbours?
And why do they say this? Do you have no faith?

This disgusts me, how can you do that!!??

xxx

which 'you' are you asking? I don't think we have a member from the indian subcontinent.

Who do? The microcephalic people? The Indians? Your next-door neighbours?
And why do they say this? Do you have no faith?

You are refering to Don Kiddick speaking of 'infidels'
An infidel is one who does not believe in relegeon. Not one who has no faith.
You are mixing up the two.
Most people have faith in God, only fools have faith in relegeon.

BTW the proper definition of an infidel is one who does not follow Christianity.

This might sound mad, but.... given the lack of girls available to marry the number of males as a result of this practice, would a solution be..... a man cannot lawfully marry unless he has a sister?.....

Think about it for a second before shooting me down in flames ;)

That would cause large population increases which is exactly what the one child policy is trying to stop.

If it wasn't for girls...there wouldn't be any boys.

That would cause large population increases which is exactly what the one child policy is trying to stop.
This in itself creates major social problems, in the short term (100 years say), as it means a small working population is left to support a large aging population, until the changes work through due to natural causes.
Also, in the developing (third) world, due to the preference for male children, it is leading to a massive male/female imbalance, which is a sure recipe for unrest, and ultimately war.
The present international situation is an indication of this, as can be seen by the expansionist policies of the Muslim countries.

You are refering to Don Kiddick speaking of 'infidels'
An infidel is one who does not believe in relegeon. Not one who has no faith.
You are mixing up the two.
Most people have faith in God, only fools have faith in relegeon.

BTW the proper definition of an infidel is one who does not follow Christianity.

You are right, I am referring to he with the most original and hilarious moniker speaking of 'infidels'. But, you are wrong. I mix up nothing. And then again, you are wrong; the infidel is he or she who does not believe in your God, your religion, your faith, your whatever-you-want-to-call-it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/5125810.stm

Can you believe that this goes on in 'modern' India ?????

Initially, I was under the impression that it would be the illiterate and backward families who didn't want a girl, however....



Z
Another selective post from zafar.
What about this ?
Of course Pakistan is an Islamic state.

Pakistan: Infanticide on the rise
Islam may have abolished female infanticide 1,400 years ago, but the crime still continues in some countries that claim to be ‘Islamic’. A report published last month in The Herald (Karachi) estimated that about 14 newly born babies are either throttled or poisoned to death and dumped in various parts of Karachi every month. Most cases are not even registered by the police and the bodies are usually buried without an autopsy, the report stated. According to one police officer, the police avoids registering such cases as "we have many more important and urgent issues to deal with during the course of a day and we have no time to spend on these cases. Moreover, the absence of adequate leads makes such murders almost impossible to investigate." Another reason, which the police does not speak about, is that each police station tries to keep its record of heinous crimes down to a bare minimum — ignoring infanticide is relatively easy as no pressure for a follow–up comes from an aggrieved quarter.

Though some are simply cases of an unwanted or an illegitimate child, gender does account for most of the infanticide cases. Figures of abandoned babies show that one boy is found for every 18 girls. And the incidents are constantly on the increase. As against 52 infants found killed in Karachi in the first eight months of 1996, the count up to August 1998, was 113 infants. Ahmed Ali, still traumatised at finding a dead baby girl in a gunny bag, said, "As far as the authorities are concerned, the bodies of these newborn babies are nothing more than garbage, which only needs to be swept aside and conveniently forgotten. And most ordinary people either don’t know about this ongoing tragedy, or just don’t want to think about it."

Another selective post from zafar.
What about this ?
Of course Pakistan is an Islamic state.

Pakistan: Infanticide on the rise
Islam may have abolished female infanticide 1,400 years ago, but the crime still continues in some countries that claim to be ‘Islamic’. A report published last month in The Herald (Karachi) estimated that about 14 newly born babies are either throttled or poisoned to death and dumped in various parts of Karachi every month. Most cases are not even registered by the police and the bodies are usually buried without an autopsy, the report stated. According to one police officer, the police avoids registering such cases as "we have many more important and urgent issues to deal with during the course of a day and we have no time to spend on these cases. Moreover, the absence of adequate leads makes such murders almost impossible to investigate." Another reason, which the police does not speak about, is that each police station tries to keep its record of heinous crimes down to a bare minimum — ignoring infanticide is relatively easy as no pressure for a follow–up comes from an aggrieved quarter.

Though some are simply cases of an unwanted or an illegitimate child, gender does account for most of the infanticide cases. Figures of abandoned babies show that one boy is found for every 18 girls. And the incidents are constantly on the increase. As against 52 infants found killed in Karachi in the first eight months of 1996, the count up to August 1998, was 113 infants. Ahmed Ali, still traumatised at finding a dead baby girl in a gunny bag, said, "As far as the authorities are concerned, the bodies of these newborn babies are nothing more than garbage, which only needs to be swept aside and conveniently forgotten. And most ordinary people either don’t know about this ongoing tragedy, or just don’t want to think about it."

and it should be condemned. As you said, it was banned in Islam 1400 years ago.

As for being selective, perhaps you should blame the Beeb.
I only started the thread after a documentary shown on the Beeb.

p.s If you actually looked at the web page, it does fall in the programme section of the Beeb.

Z

and it should be condemned. As you said, it was banned in Islam 1400 years ago.

As for being selective, perhaps you should blame the Beeb.
I only started the thread after a documentary shown on the Beeb.

p.s If you actually looked at the web page, it does fall in the programme section of the Beeb.

Z
Well yes but the web article is more than a month old.
Why just single out India though when it happens in other countries ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/5125810.stm

Can you believe that this goes on in 'modern' India ?????

Initially, I was under the impression that it would be the illiterate and backward families who didn't want a girl, however....



Z
Can you find anything on female genital mutilation during your research ?

And 'feminism' is seen as a dirty word. :rant:

*snip*

Cool-headed rationales about economics are only part of the story. Culturally, females are seen as inferior, or even worthless, in many many parts of the world. Female infanticide has been a disaster in China also, due to the one-child policy. Now men can't find wives there either, because of the mass cull of unwanted females.
Yes, I saw a BBC tv programme about this chinese guy who cannot find a wife in China. It really highlighted the realistic situation out there ! I recall reading somewhere that, there may be an increase in the sex industry, and all the rest. :(

In my parents generation, especially during the war between China and Japan... a lot of male children were on 'loan' to other families who never had a son before, in order to fullfill some kind of filial duty. (Or give them some kind of luck.) It's quite surreal actually. Most sons have now probably found their own true mothers years after. Though, it was not uncommon, if you were poor, that you gave a son away. (Sometimes it's because you cannot feed them.) Or rather, sometimes, it's SOLD. Kind of like today's adoption methods, without it being so clinical and legally binding.

I think if the one-child policy never happened, then natural selection might have worked itself out in China.

Well yes but the web article is more than a month old.
Why just single out India though when it happens in other countries ?


and how long do you think this thread has been going ?

Go on have a guess......

Z

apologies if im wrong, or if its already been said, but dont they do the same or similar in china too?

I TOTALLY condem this practise but being born into a relatively traditional indian family I see why they do it.

I have heard some really upsetting horror stories. My grandma told me about another woman, who's daughter-in-law gave birth to twin girls. She gave them boiling milk.

The worst thing is that the women of the family normally do the killing.

The dowery system is supposedly abolished in India but it still carries on. Additionally, the parents of the daughter have to give the parents of the groom a sum of money for their son. The higher caste/wealthier the groom's family, the higher the price. If they are poor, they wont be able to afford a marriage for their daughter and she will stay unmarried which is shameful. Additionally, the son will look after his parents when they are old, the daughter will move to her inlaws. If they have no son, they are doomed.

In some places in India, they are running out of women to marry....wonder what they will do next.....

apologies if im wrong, or if its already been said, but dont they do the same or similar in china too?


Possibly, but there have been various documentaries where the State forces women to have abortions (even at a very late stage) in order to keep the 1 child policy in place.

Z

and how long do you think this thread has been going ?

Go on have a guess......

Z
Point conceded about the date of the web article.

Point conceded about the date of the web article.

No probs Chuff. :thumbsup:

Z

I do miss Zafar and his posts. :(