Given the recent published report reccommending increased State funding for Islamic schools, is it not time for the state to stop funding any/all religious schools, including those in Northern Ireland?
Is it also time to remove all religious education from the syllabus in State Schools and cease morning prayers at assembly (if this is still a common practice).
Should the State be funding schools which promote segregation, on religious grounds, for young persons who are at a very impressionable stage of development and who would surely benefit from interaction with each other.
Will increased numbers of religious schools actually promote misunderstandings, alienation and suspicion between different sections of society?

Definately. Huge amounts of time was wasted at my first school praying, singing hymns, going to church, etc. I shouldn't think that CofE schools produce adny more adult Christians than anywhere else. Schools should be about education, not indoctrination. The same for Islamic schools. Most Muslim kids go to mosque schools already. I do appreciate RE, as it teaches kids what other peoples religions/superstitions are, and this is useful for understanding why the world is the way it is.

I rather incline to the French system where there is no religious education in state schools - and no religious symbolism or identitifiers permitted - visible crucifix necklace, religious headgear etc. Trouble is that would raise a storm of protests about discrimination here.
Not that I'm against religion or religious education, I just don't think it's the job of the state. And I don't have a problem with faith-neutral "comparative religion" lessons because those should help foster a wider understanding of world religions.

If the school are producing morally upstanding, well educated members of the community then it's fine by me.

Academic attainment at religious schools is higher than average. The alumnis are less likely to commit crimes and more likely to make a greater contribution to society.

This is another case of blind left wing idiology. These schools produce good people. There isn't any point in spoiling that.

If you want to make a positive impact you should concentrate on the schools that are failing, not the ones that are achieving.

Fair point dylan_61 but does that extend to schools which preach creationism? There's one planned for Doncaster and there's a website set up by opponents which makes interesting reading. Follow the link from the second letter on this page:

Guardian letters (http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,3604,1235110,00.html)

i saw this on last night news. i was astounded!

Tony Blair and Bush are complianing about terrorists that are not from our culture. and yet they want to fund the seperation of the cultures even more????? :loopy: :loopy: :loopy: :loopy:

DUR

Indeed - rather counter productive, as is any form of segregation, whether it's for 'their own good' or 'ours'...

I'm strongly against religion in schools - of any form... up to the parents and religious leaders to preach, not teachers.

I'm in favour of faith schools

Originally posted by Fletch
Tony Blair and Bush are complianing about terrorists that are not from our culture. and yet they want to fund the seperation of the cultures even more?

The faith schools that I know of don't support the separation of cultures, or promote intolerance of other faiths/non faiths.

What they do provide, and do so very well, is to educate children the National Curriculum in an environment more suited to the requirements of the childs religion. There'll be more emphasis on developing a social and community-minded individual. How can that be a bad thing?

Originally posted by oxbeast
Schools should be about education, not indoctrination. The same for Islamic schools. Most Muslim kids go to mosque schools already.

Originally posted by Agent Dan
up to the parents and religious leaders to preach, not teachers.

In Faith schools, the teachers are generally of the same religion as the pupils, so can provide them with an education to satisfy the spiritual and educational needs of the children. The teaching standards will be under scrutiny from the Government, which doesn't happen in Mosques (yet...)

The faith schools that I know of don't support the separation of cultures, or promote intolerance of other faiths/non faiths.

im not saying they would support seperation but them being ther themselves shwow the dividation (real word) do they not?

In Faith schools, the teachers are generally of the same religion as the pupils, so can provide them with an education to satisfy the spiritual and educational needs of the children. The teaching standards will be under scrutiny from the Government, which doesn't happen in Mosques (yet...)

How do people of different religions have different educational needs? Why should this be so?

How do people of different religions have different educational needs? Why should this be so?

i dont think its the different in education so much but more in the understanding.

like in the cantine multicultural schools may have pork or another meat that Muslims may not be able to eat but in a special religious school theuy will only sell eatable things

It sounds like the solution is better canteens, not different schools.

I was force-fed christian religion at school, and it was never proved to me that it was necessary, or something that 'affected my educational needs' - school should be about education, not spiritualism, regardless of origin or faith. Everyone should receive the same impartial treatment.

My primary school was in Bradford and very multicultural, hence there were alternatives available if pork was on the menu for school lunch. I think most schools now do this anyway - not for observation of religion but to cater for vegetarians.

My son's school is a supposedly a CofE school but has a large proportion of non Christian children. He is learning about Christianity but he is also learning about Islam, Hinduism, Judaism etc which is also discussed at home so that he understands and respects the fact that different people have different beliefs.

I don't think that religious segregation of our children is going to achieve anything other than a lack of respect and understanding for other faiths.

I went to Notre Dame (Christened Catholic). We did go to church, although not that much. We didnt mind that much because it was an excuse to get out of lessons and mess around.

But I was a very good school and Im glad I went, even though I do not agree with the Catholic faith, but because I got a good education.

However, I always wondered why they teach Physics in Catholic schools when "God created all things??"

I was brought up a good roman catholic boy, and went to a roman catholic school. However despite being a faith based school it didn't practice any sort of religious intollerence, didn't exclude people of other faiths and didn't even spend THAT much time on religious education - personally I have to say I think this is a bit of a non-argument!

i as a student of a school fell like i am preassured in to becoming a christian.

especially during Y7 Y8 and Y9 i felt almost preassured into becoming a Christian. also we concentrate more on christianity than other religions.

Personally i hate RE at school. we are forced to do it unless we have a religion other than cristianity. also we are oinly taught about Christianity and Islam.

i took 50% of my GCSE a for RE a few weeks ago there not 1 question that wasnt about Muslims or Christians.

Originally posted by beckb
I don't think that religious segregation of our children is going to achieve anything other than a lack of respect and understanding for other faiths.

I see your point, but comparative religious studies do take place in single faith schools. Now that religious education has been relegated to only an option at multi-faith schools, comparative religious studies must be a good thing. I'd even say that in these days of intolerance, it's even more imprtant to study other faiths and cultures.

As dylan mentioned earlier, 'The alumnis are less likely to commit crimes and more likely to make a greater contribution to society' so I'm prepared to risk my personal reputation and say your fears are unfounded :thumbsup:

We had to take Religous Studies for GCSE, but we didnt just do about Christianity. It also included Islam and Judaism.

It wouldve been interesting to learn about others i.e Buddism, Hinduism etc, but I think that it wouldve taken too long and wouldve been harder to take them all in.

Schools stick to these 3 religions because they all stem from the same belief that there is one God. And to be honest, they are not that different from each other.

I think Abdul's hit on an important point in his earlier post. Single faith schools exist but are not regulated. If opening up single faith schools to state funding means that they are also subject to the same regulations and standards as state schools then that, imo, is a good thing.

I still have a problem with creationism though. It's one thing to teach some subjects as faith related but to introduce them as factual is dangerous, imo.

Max seems to be taking 'single faith schools' to be private ones, i.e. for Jews or Muslims or something. I would welcome regulation of these, adn I am surprised that Ofsted does not do so already. What I have a problem with are Cof E and RC schools who get money from the goverment. They are permitted a degree of selection, and Abdul is right, many of them have better results. Because of this, many parents buy property near the school, and fake conversions to Christianity. Some churches kepp logbooks of which parents attend and how frequently.

This is essentially selection in education, depending on whether you have the money to buy a house right next to the school or the guts to fake it in church. You may be smitten, big time.

I remember religious stuff taking up quite a lot of time at school, like long long long assemblies adn going to church twice a term. With so much to learn about the real world, is there really time for all this mumbo jumbo (he says, striking a deliberately Devil's Advocatey note)

It seems there may be a difference between teaching RE, which dispassionately examines various religions (and hopefully humanism/atheism ) and having a Religious School.
Should a secular state be funding these at all? I can't see how questioning this should be as Dylan termed it, "blind left wing ideology"?

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
I can't see how questioning this should be as Dylan termed it, "blind left wing ideology"?

Religious people pay taxes. Shouldn't they be allowed to have a school which suits their ethos?

Originally posted by oxbeast
Because of this, many parents buy property near the school, and fake conversions to Christianity. Some churches kepp logbooks of which parents attend and how frequently.


While not a rabid christian/catholic/whatever (I'm about as lapsed as you can get!) I did go to an RC school and I can tel you that you didn't need to be catholic, or even a christian, to attend nor did you need to be in the immediate area (I lived in Greenhill and travelled into the center of town to go to school). And as for logbooks I have certainly never seen or heard of this being done???

Personaly I have no problem with single faith schools if thats how parents want their kids educated they should be given that choice so long as the schools teach the curriculem I really don't see the problem?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3550355.stm

more about single faith schools

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2026628.stm

many church schools would get better results than other local schools not because they were inherently better in any way, but because they were selective - and obviously they would cream off the better pupils.

modern religious schools must take at least ten percent of peolpe from other denominations in order to get state funding dont they? or am i confusing that with something else? as it is, i agree with those who say that they only increase the divide between different people and cultures and religions, which can only be a bad thing. i mean look at the state of it in the six counties of northern ireland!

I think children should be taught extensively about all religions at school, so they can make their own mind up about what they chose to believe.

I was brought up as a Christian. I went to a C of E aided primary school, went to Sunday school while my mum was in church, and later joined the church choir. Therefore I would consider myself as a Christian because it is the faith which I know the most about.

However, the more I learn about Islam, the more I admire some of the belief of Muslims. We were never really taught about the beliefs of other faiths at school, so it is only recently that I have had the inclination to research it. I also like the ideology of Hindus, about how there are different paths to righteousness, and the following of any religion could be an accatable one by the Hindu faith.

I certainly don't think it's right to abolish all religion from schools and bring children up as athiests. In my opinion this would promote closed-mindedness and religious intolerance, which I have encountered several times on this forum.

Originally posted by Emilychee
I went to Notre Dame (Christened Catholic). We did go to church, although not that much. We didnt mind that much because it was an excuse to get out of lessons and mess around.

But I was a very good school and Im glad I went, even though I do not agree with the Catholic faith, but because I got a good education.

However, I always wondered why they teach Physics in Catholic schools when "God created all things??"

There are plenty of schools very near to Notre Dame who are at least as good. The fact that it is a Catholic School makes little difference.

Anyways...don't get me started on creationism! 2 A level exams on it tomorrow afternoon! Most Christians, including most RC's don't believe in the creation story literally these days anyway. And I think I started a thread a while ago about this so I won't go into it!

Back to topic....no, of course they shouldn't get state funding! I can't speak for other denominations/religions, but the Catholic Church is the richest 'organization' in the world! What happened to 'it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to heaven', and 'do not store up riches for yourself in this life, but store them up for heaven'.

And what about giving as much as you can to charity, and being as selfless as possible, and greed etc being a sin? Why not try and solve third world debt rather than building bloody stained glass windows? They could turn the Vatican into a refugee camp. Now that would be a Christian thing to do.

I agree that it's not right that people fake Christianity or move into the catchment area just to go to a Catholic School because of better grades - however, if Catholics or other religions want to bring up their children in an environemnt that promotes their faith then surely they should have the choice to do so? As far as I know, Catholic Schools receive the same funding as any other, so if Catholic children didn't go into the Catholic Schools they would just go into other state schools, so the cost to the tax payers would be the same.

Does anyone know if there are any Faithless Schools, and should they not receive Government funding like the Religious ones? Hopefully, the time mis-spent singing hymns, muttering hail mary or facing east would be used to teach the kids how to read and write.

If the schools are Catholics Schools, then the children attending the schools are either Catholic or have decided for their own reasons to attend this school and know already that hyms will be sung, etc and they have decided that this is OK and this is what they want to do, so it's their choice.

Does anyone know if there are any Faithless Schools, and should they not receive Government funding like the Religious ones? Hopefully, the time mis-spent singing hymns, muttering hail mary or facing east would be used to teach the kids how to read and write.

Yes there are but it seems the masses just like to concentrate on the faith schools and pick them to pieces.

The plan is to create choice for parents and to get them involved in their children's education. If parents are unhappy about it they can now group together and form their own school, with funding.

Kind of makes you put your money where you mouth is and step up to the plate instead of criticising the state of education.

Recently I met up with my cousin and his wife, and she said something that disturbed me a little bit. She's a teacher, and she said that the law states that excluding faith schools, all state primary schools have to have some kind of regular worship in assembly etc (the faith schools set their own worship).

Does anyone know if this is true or not? When I was at first and middle school (1984-92) we did sing christian hymns every assembly even though it wasn't a faith school, but I assumed that this was just something exclusive to that school. Do any of your kids attend non-faith schools where they still cover religion in assembly, outside of RE lessons?

Recently I met up with my cousin and his wife, and she said something that disturbed me a little bit. She's a teacher, and she said that the law states that excluding faith schools, all state schools have to have some kind of regular worship in assembly etc (the faith schools set their own worship).

Does anyone know if this is true or not? When I was at first and middle school (1984-92)

Under the 1944 Education Act, tis true Daley.

I certainly don't think it's right to abolish all religion from schools and bring children up as athiests.

Don't see how this follows. Get your religious education thro' your church or at home. I went to an RC school - indoctrination.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/5072756.stm

Schools can have an assembly without it being Christian based. As with everything in education it depends on how you justify what you are doing.

My setting educates children up to the age of 7, we do not have assembly, we do not sing religious songs. We are OfSTED inspected and receive glowing reports. We also do many other things that are a contradiction to the state curriculum, but we justify what we do.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1996/96056-bl.htm#385 See section 385. It is termed "collective worship" It's up to anyone how they interpret that.

Daily acts of worship in non-religious schools (even when described as 'collective worship') is something that should have been abolished long ago, and I am glad that most secondary schools do not adhere to it. Fair enough if you are at a faith-based school then you expect it - but even then it should be optional, but 'worship' has no place in normal schools. What about the rights of the non-believers? They make up the second biggest group in this country after Christians - and unlike Christians their numbers are growing, atheists are likely to make up the majority within the next couple of decades. Banning any kind of religious worship in school does not impose atheism on those with a religious faith, as they are still free to practice in more appropriate places, but enforcing worship on atheists is imposing religion on them.