Can't believe I haven't asked the forum about this....

I am considering performing a conversion on my diesel car to allow it to run straight vegetable oil....

Anyone interested in this or know a mechanic who would help me fit it..?

I understand this is illegal as you are avoiding paying tax, plus your car will smell like a chip shop!

Since running a vehicle on straight vegetable oil is illegal as the government see it as 'evading fuel duty' you may have problems with this.

Why is it illegal ?

If they ever did invent a car that ran on water would that be illegal too ?

I suppose it shows where the governments priorities lie.

It is completely legal!!!!

You are all casting doubts on my good character.!

You can use whatever fuel you like as long a s you pay the duty.

Apparnetly you have to self declare whatever veg oil you use in the car and send of a cheque to the inland revenue once a year equal to the duty...

http://www.veggiepower.org.uk/legal.html

lots of info here.. it might not be illegal after all

What is the duty in 1000 gallons of Spry Crisp 'n' Dry then ?

from a web page worth reading link below



Problems and drawbacks of running on vegetable oil



Legal issues - tax on fuel in the UK

This is rather a grey area for me at present.
I am clear that for using vegetable oil in a road vehicle the duty is payable to HM Customs and Excise to the tune of 45.82p/litre at the moment. How this is collected is questionable but HM C&E tell me that it is my responsibility to declare all I use and to keep records which can be checked by an inspector at a later date. You do not need to pay duty on vegetable oil used for stationary engines. HM C&E have regional offices and its up to the office which covers your area to collect the duty from you. I'm currently waiting for a reply from my local C&E office clarifying how they think I'm to pay duty. In the meantime I have a friendly registered fuel producer who is acting as an agent for me supplying me with the reciepts I need proving I've paid duty. The duty on bio-diesel will change to around 25p/litre in April 2002. Vegetable oil is not covered by the description 'bio-diesel' and the duty will therefore remain at 45p/litre. If you'd like to lobby for a reduction in the duty for vegetable oil or bio-diesel (preferably to the preferential rate currently applied to LPG of 6p/litre) email helen_morris@dtlr.gsi.gov.uk Watch this space for further development and please write and tell me your experiences. This is not something that many officers of HM C&E have experience and I've received conflicting advice over the 'phone which is why I'm asking them for a written response.



clicky (http://www.veggiepower.org.uk/legal.html)

Read the link...!

It is definately legal...!
:huh:


avoiding paying duty is illegal

Typical - all the flash looking ones only run on olive oil.

I think you have to put a small amount of kerosene in the mix.

Apologies if you were actually planning on sending the duty to the government James N.

The reason for assuming that it was illegal was that once you pay the equivalent duty for the fuel you would have used if you were using diesel, then there really isn't much money saved overall- and if you factor in the potential problems that could be caused to your engine from not putting it through the biodiesel process and using it neat, then it's not that clear why you're doing it.

FYI one of my relatives did lots of the research on biodiesel (including the pilot project with Asda, using their old chip and rotisserie fat in the diesel process, to power their trucks), and I've seen the figures on potential savings, so I'm better informed than average.

30p from tesco's = 46p duty that's still pretty cheap diesel at 76p, thats the kit paid for in 3 yrs of average motoring, and if the revenue see sense and finally allow the lower duty then that's down to 2yrs and a pocketing of £300 a year there after... sounds ok to me if you do above average milage.

To be honest we're into it for the carbon neutral fuel as our milage is low, also the costs of installing are not inconsiderable, hence the post...:)

Crumbs! Look at this...

The easiest way to do this is to run your tank almost empty. Then when you pop to the supermarket, fill up with diesel, and then add the veg oil. The drive home mixes it all up nicely.

How much veg oil should you use? Start with a light blend, and increase each time you refill. That way, if you notice your car sputtering, you know you've hit the limit and should use less next time, and you can top up with regular diesel to thin the mixture back down.


A 10% veg oil blend will work for everyone. It meets your personal part of our Kyoto commitment, and there should be no noticeable difference in how your car drives. 27 litres of diesel and one three-litre bottle of veg oil from the supermarket.


At 25% veg oil in 75% diesel, your exhaust stops smelling like a taxi and starts smelling like a doughnut fryer. It's pleasant and a real talking point. You should notice the slight smoothness improvement around now.


33% - one part veg to two parts regular diesel - is the heaviest mix I would recommend for the British winter, unless you've got a frost-free garage. This level of blend still starts even on cold, frosty mornings.


50% is a good running blend for the rest of the year. Half-and-half is where the cost savings really show themselves. And of course, the carbon saving is good enough to offset that second TV.

A note for new car owners: using non-standard fuels probably voids your warranty. This doesn't mean they're bad, just that they're not covered. Caveat emptor

http://www.ravenfamily.org/andyg/vegoil.htm

Apart from the duty issues, I believe that there are some manufacturers who would use the use of biodiesel or biofuel as a means to void your warranty.

There might be some small adjustments made to the engine - differences in viscosity, etc.

oh and...

the site recommends a blend of Rape Seed Oil and Sunflower...

oh and...

The Legal bit... (which Medusa correctly touched on earlier)

Tax and legal issues
It is not illegal to use vegetable oil as fuel in the UK.
It is illegal to use anything for road vehicle fuel without paying duty on it. To pay duty on vegetable oil, you have to jump through a couple of legislative hoops. Here's what you have to do:

Register with Customs and Excise
Keep your reciepts
Fill in a monthly tax return
First, get notice 179E and form EX103 from HM Customs & Excise.
Fill in the EX103 declaring the purpose of your business as a private individual using vegetable oil as a motor vehile fuel and stating the description as jerrycan(s) marked SVO in porch/shed/wherever. Attach a letter explaining that the oil is a diesel quality liquid fuel produced from biomass or waste cooking oil, the ester content of which is not less than 96.5% by weight; and the sulphur content of which does not exceed 0.005% by weight. Explain that your feedstock is commercial cooking oil and/or waste cooking oil and give the following details:

Vegetable oil is produced from biomass.
Fatty acids are esters, so the ester content is 99% approx.
The sulphur content is 0.002% by weight (see this assay by German vegoil company Elsbett).
(Important note: I've only just found the Elsbett assay as the supermarkets refused to provide this information under an absurd "commercially confidential" smokescreen, so I'll be writing to HMCE with these details myself. I'll update this page with how I get on)
Remember to give an estimate of your monthly usage: For an individual, this will be small: less than 100 litres. Don't forget to include a contact phone number in case they have any further questions.

The completed EX103 should be sent to HMCE, Mineral Oils Relief Centre, Dobson House, Regent Centre, Gosforth, Newcastle-on-Tyne NE3 3PF.

Every month, you will be sent an HO 930. It's a moderately scary-looking form but filling it is is dead easy. It's detailed in the 179E leaflet:

At the bottom of the list of duty types, make the blank row read: ORR 33589 Biodiesel and then your quantity and calculated duty payable. As I write, duty is 27.1p per litre. Sign and date the declaration, write a cheque to The Commissioners of Customs and Excise, and pop the form and cheque in the post.

Keep your receipts: You're required to keep them for six years. It's simplest if you just keep the paper receipts, stapled together so you have a bundle for each HO930 you've submitted.

And that's it! The forms look opaque but it's not hard really. If you get stuck, Customs' national enquiries help line is open 8am to 8pm Monday to Friday for all general questions on 0845 010 9000 (+44 208 929 0152 outside UK).

If you're genuinely doing this for the carbon neutral status James, then you'd better have really quite deep pockets, as there are currently no manufacturers that will honour warranties for vehicles run entirely on vegetable oil or biodiesel.

Some manufacturers will only invalidate the warranty for the parts of the engine that actually come into contact with the fuel, but most simply say that it's usage of the vehicle not in accordance with their guidelines therefore it's invalidated.

HOWEVER- all diesel now sold commercially has a small (but increasing) proportion of biodiesel in it- it's a higher proportion in France than it is here, and I can't remember the current percentages, but it's increasing to about 10% over the next 10 years I think (don't quote me on that- I don't have figures to hand so it's from memory). This means that the use of biodiesel mixed with normal diesel has to be covered under vehicle warranties, although they all have their own ideas as to what percentage they cover.

By the way, you get used to the smelling like a chip shop thing quite quickly I'm told, and apart from being a slightly sickliness to it, it's much nicer than normal diesel smell in my opinion.

I believe Mr diesel's original engine design was intended to run on peanut oil. He fell into the channel off a ferry and was never seen again, (mysteriously or otherwise) and the big fuel companies redesigned his motor to run on processed fuel. Not sure how correct I am, but you could check the details.

I think if you want to try this you would be best off starting with a really old car with no warranty that you can maintain yourself.

Issues - as mentioned tax duty, warranties, also - if you want to sell it again, it might put people off. Apparently you can clean up used chip oil but I suspect that would stink and it needs filtering and stuff.


Best luck anyway.

I know people who do use cooking oils to run their cars on, and seem to have no serious problems, BUT they are driving old cars with no warranties and they do all the repairs and services themselves.


Hmmm, if I was starting out, I'd consider 'taking the risk' with maybe an old P registered heap like a Rover 240/Pug 205 or similar. Just in case. Can't see it working too well in the Bentley.

Most warranties with new cars are voided by the conversion kit...

... a new car....

... with a warranty....

Not in my lifetime!

The conversion typically involves a second tank, some sort of preheat for the veggie oil and a switching device. You start on diesel, use the return engine oil or electric heater to heat up the veggie oil, which is then fluid enough to be introduced, switch over, run on veggie oil... switch back at end of day to flush veggie oil out.

http://www.smartveg.co.uk/faqs/

http://www.smartveg.co.uk/shop/e22.php

fair few quid for the kit as you can see above, but what canes it is the additional 5-600 quid for a mechanic to fit it...

... What I really need is a partner in crime with more practical skill.. apparently you need to have the 3 spanner ability (as in the Haynes manual), I'm probabley more a 1 and 1/2 to 2 spanner man myself (!)...

...also come to think of it if you have two tanks how exactly would your average revenue officer go about establishing how much veggie oil you have used and how much diesel... which of course you have already paid duty on....

:huh:

Just remember...

Don't drive and bake.

Undeclared veggie oil and red diesel would save a few quid.

Most warranties with new cars are voided by the conversion kit...


why bother converting when you can do it yourself?

I personally wouldnt advise it.Modern diesel engines (The common rail type not the old injector pump type) are computer controlled much the same as petrol engines and are 100% designed and mapped out by the manufacture to use diesel oil.Using any other fuel could potentialy do damage,Maybe not in the short term but long term.

I have seen time and time again damaged petrol engines from the use of lpg and it is an expensive repair.I think for it to be worth it, You would have to be doing a hell of a lot of miles.This will also affect the warranty of a vehicle.

why bother converting when you can do it yourself?

How do you do it youself then?

Since running a vehicle on straight vegetable oil is illegal as the government see it as 'evading fuel duty' you may have problems with this.

Paper work came back from the revenue this weekend and now I'm running a 10/90 mix of veg oil/DERV.

So far running like a dream. I'm going to give it a week on 10% and then up it to 20%

And it's legal as long as I keep the paperwork in order and pay the duty.

And it's legal as long as I keep the paperwork in order and pay the duty.

I understand that- it's just that most people who advocate changing to vegetable oil do so in order to avoid the duty.

I think you'll find that even when you think you're on 10/90 you're on more than that, since biodiesel now makes up 5%ish of all diesel on sale from pumps at the moment (and that fraction is growing by the year).

Paper work came back from the revenue this weekend and now I'm running a 10/90 mix of veg oil/DERV.

So far running like a dream. I'm going to give it a week on 10% and then up it to 20%



Gizza chip then! :)

It is true, diesil engines were origionally designed to run on peanut oil :loopy:
It was the oil companies who created the market for desil above bio fuel, and now they are paying the price with reduced engine emissions
Why tho we get stung for tax to run our cars green is interesting to say the least tho, would be interesting to take that one to the european courts as the goverment would get a bit knackered for basicly taxing you when you are trying to be carbon nuetral!!!, could be a good 1 for a no10 petition me thinks :hihi: :hihi:

I understand this is illegal as you are avoiding paying tax, plus your car will smell like a chip shop!

if you dont know anything please dont post
its legal to use

if you dont know anything please dont post
its legal to use

It's legal as long as you register it's use with HM revenue & customs.
Tel 0845 010 9000.
It remains illegal if you use any fuel that you avoid paying tax on.

Wrong it may be to tax 'green' fuels but they do it anyway so pay the tax or risk loosing your motor.

http://www.ravenfamily.org/andyg/vegoil.htm

if you dont know anything please dont post
its legal to use

And you know everything kingbadattitudedon.

if I were you I'd make sure you do the conversion and not just slosh some veggie oil in the tank, I ran my old clio diesel on a mixture of about 60/40 diesel/veggie oil and it worked fine for a few months. Driving home from work early hours of the morning and broke down, the fuel pump had seized and had to be overhauled- Cost me more than the car did to get it repaired and the bloke who did it said he had done hundreds with the same problem!



PS- I didn't do it to be green I just thought it would save me a few bob on fuel so served me right really!

I used veg oil for a while till I resd up that it does not agree with lucas fuel pumps the oil is too thick even at 50/50 and has a tendency to smash the rotor in the pump so check your fuel pump make first.

Using a veg oil mix does not agree with the engine starting in the cold weather! Much harder work for it. And yes due to its thickness it becomes a strain on the fuel pump. The only time its going to work out financially is if you are collected used oil from catering establishments for nowt - except you have to set up a filtering system to prepare it for use as an engine fuel

Riding in queues of traffic it is quite amusing spotting with your nose who is using veg oil and who is not!! :hihi:

.

Interestingly you don't have to pay duty on veggie oil used in your tank, if you live in France!! This is just another example of rip off britain!!

Interestingly you don't have to pay duty on veggie oil used in your tank, if you live in France!! This is just another example of rip off britain!!

But tony has to have his new jet and a fat pay rise.
I'm fed up of people moaning about taxes when our lord and master needs so much before he retires.

We are told to be 'green' but it's harder work than it needs to be while we are being ripped off by Mr Blair, Brown and Co.

Anyway back to the van.

It's still on 10/90 with the odd 20/80 mix and it runs a treat.
No change in running and it smells better. I have had a few odd looks when I'm bunging veg oil in the tank before using the pump.

Try this site.

www.dieselveg.com

Try this site.

www.dieselveg.com

He's flogging conversion kits at £500 + VAT so remember that when reading what he writes.
I'm now running at 30% with no ill effects and have been for a while.
Van is running well and showing no signs of any damage.

The paperwork is simple to fill in and keeps me legal but still saving a good few quid a month.

It's still has a huge amount of tax to pay for a so called environmentally friendly fuel when the duty on LPG is only 6.25p a litre.

There's veggie oil and there's bio-diesel. Bio-diesel is derived from veggie oil (usually rapeseed). Whacking 5% veggie straight into the tank won't do any harm but the stuff sold in France and by Tesco's (I believe) is 5% bio-diesel.

You can make your own bio-diesel. If you're brave it can be used neat but most don't go above 85%.

You can also have two tanks - start on regular diesel, switch to straight veggie oil once warm - go back to diesel before turning off engine.

G

PS - on Sheffield car parks, you can park for free if you can prove you use bio-diesel. Need to purchase a badge though for a tenner.

Rudolph Diesel originally designed his engine to run on peanut oil which was environmentally friendly. He mysteriously fell from a channel ferry and drowned. There is a conspiracy theory that this was the work of vested interests in the mineral oil industry.

theres a wealth of info also at:
http://www.itsnoteasybeinggreen.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=26&sid=24d26ece9e38815c7737896df934e251