Hello!
I've been wondering about Paganism and the Pagan movement for quite some time. I hardly know anything about the religion (although I think its different to Wicca) and I would like to know more.

I heard it was worshiping gods from long ago, such as celtic and egyption gods and used to be Britain's main religion before Christianity or something?

I would really like to know about this interesting religion and also I would like to know about Wicca too.

Thanks guys!!

Here you go (http://www.beneaththeshades.com/), should find all you need in their.

Failing that PM Moon Maiden (forum moderator) as she's a paganist (I believe that's the correct word) and should be able to 'enlighten' you.

:thumbsup:

Basically, both of these terms are catch-alls for people who have quite diverse beliefs. It is not really regulated as a practice or series of beliefs, so it is one of the most democratic and free thinking of the belief structures. There has been an ongoing slagging match between the British Order of Druids and the Ancient Order of Druids (not certain about the names) that is very reminiscent of the argument in the Life of Brian between the Judean Peoples front and the Peoples Front of Judea, mainly about who has the right to do rituals in Stonehenge on the solstice.

But anyway, basically pagans believe in the basic connectedness of things: of people, plants, living things and the supernatural world of the dead and of conciousness. This connectedness can be experienced in many ways, but particularly by carrying out rituals at prehistoric sites and natural places. I've met quite a few pagans, adn the nature of their rituals varies enormously.

A good place to start might be http://www.ukpaganlinks.co.uk/
Or ask Moon Maiden, she seems to know a bit about it.

Depends on who you listened to - alot of it is a late Victorian invention (see also druids and spiritualism!) though pretty much every country has / had some sort of animistic religion. Paganism itself is probably a collection of different animistic traditions as it isn't a religion per se but actually comes from an insult roughly meaning bumkin or yokel - the 'more advanced' city folk would practice new fangled monotheistic religions and would laugh at the yokels for their primative beliefs!

If you want to learn about animistic religions that havent been polluted quitse so much by Victorian rose coloured specs then try looking into shinto or voodoo / voodoun / condolobe / obeah / santeria (collection of similar syncretic African relicions). However most everything you read on animistic religions will be highly romanticised (or demonised!) and 3rd hand at best!

Little is known about the worship practices of the Celts outside of the information which has been passed on by the Romans and which is therefore very suspect. There can be little doubt about the importance of Oak groves as places of worship but as to what happened there is anyone's guess.
Offerings to water deities we know about, including human sacrifice but as to the ceremonies themselves, we will probably never know. The Wicker man was described by Julius Ceasar but as a war criminal of his time, we have to ask if his dossier was being sexed-up merely to show the Celts in a bad light.

More is known of Celtic deities and myths with much thanks to medieval monks for putting these into writing.

The worship practices of the Bronze age people can only be guessed at but clearly involved Astronomy as demonstrated by Stonehenge, New Grange etc.

I have to laugh when I see King Arthur and his Druids at Stonehenge..rather than completely distort our history, he'd be better making up his own religion although iyt could br argued that that is what he's done. Still, they are all pretty harmless and the monument belongs to them as much as anyone else. Wish they'd get their facts right though.

I agree with the above posters, the whole 'continuity of practice' thing is a bit lacking. Very little is known about prehistoric ritual and religion, though I think the main theses are pertty clear from the archaeology. Ideas about light and dark, inside adn outside, circularity, solar and lunar alignments, naural places being as important as cultural ones and the use of altered states of conciousness can also be fairly well demonstrated from what can be seen.

Modern paganism does depend to a large extent on ritual and parctice that was 'rediscovered' in the 18th and 19th centuries, but largely it focuses on reinterpreting the themes above. Thankfully most of the fanciful stuff from the 18th century about sacrificing virgins has been quietly forgotten. And fair play to them. Its not like Christianity, or Judaism has never changed in its practice.

And pagans have different attitudes to this. For some there is an unbroken chain of practices stretching back to the first ancestors, and outside of time, and for others, it is the spirit of the thing that is important, and what the practice means today, rather than thinking you're replicating something.

Originally posted by oxbeast
Basically, both of these terms are catch-alls for people who have quite diverse beliefs. It is not really regulated as a practice or series of beliefs, so it is one of the most democratic and free thinking of the belief structures. There has been an ongoing slagging match between the British Order of Druids and the Ancient Order of Druids (not certain about the names) that is very reminiscent of the argument in the Life of Brian between the Judean Peoples front and the Peoples Front of Judea, mainly about who has the right to do rituals in Stonehenge on the solstice.

But anyway, basically pagans believe in the basic connectedness of things: of people, plants, living things and the supernatural world of the dead and of conciousness. This connectedness can be experienced in many ways, but particularly by carrying out rituals at prehistoric sites and natural places. I've met quite a few pagans, adn the nature of their rituals varies enormously.

A good place to start might be http://www.ukpaganlinks.co.uk/
Or ask Moon Maiden, she seems to know a bit about it.

Sounds just like the 'Established' & 'organised' religions to me, all bl**dy arguing, disagreeing and generally falling out. Why is spirituality noy unified!

Originally posted by Rusted Root
Hello!
I've been wondering about Paganism and the Pagan movement for quite some time. I hardly know anything about the religion (although I think its different to Wicca) and I would like to know more.

I heard it was worshiping gods from long ago, such as celtic and egyption gods and used to be Britain's main religion before Christianity or something?

I would really like to know about this interesting religion and also I would like to know about Wicca too.

Thanks guys!!

I think that many strange rituals are practiced down the Wicker. Some may be truely mind bending.

Only a joke.

If we live in a multi-cultural society now and respect each others religions then why is anything to do with halloween forbidden in schools? Is was my understanding that halloween is essentially based on a pagan festival

Originally posted by slimsid2000
I think that many strange rituals are practiced down the Wicker.
Is The Wicker so named because this is the site where the famed Wicker Man was burnt in prehistoric times? Would putting the Rt Hon J. Prescott in The Wicker Man be a strange enough ritual to arouse comment down there these days?

Originally posted by sanman
If we live in a multi-cultural society now and respect each others religions then why is anything to do with halloween forbidden in schools? Is was my understanding that halloween is essentially based on a pagan festival
Yes, the Celtic festival of Samhain. When it was possible for the inhabitants of the Otherworld to visit ours (and vice versa). This was then hijacked by Christians to become All Souls Eve and of course Witchcraft being a product of the superstitious Christian mind, this got tied into it as well.
I detest this "Happy Halloween" commercialism that's become so prelevant because it's doing what Christianity couldn't....it's destroying our real folklore.

Hi Ned

Totally agree with you. I would like to see schools teach something about the old celtic festivals, to be honest probably because I'm so interested in them. But if we can recognise dirvali (sorry if I've spelt it wrong) and the chinese new year then why can't we recognise samhain. After all wasn't samhain a forerunner to the harvest festival and was to mark the passing of the seasons.

Cheers Mark

Hi Rusted Root, basically Paganism is the congregation and Wiccans the priests. Wiccans generally are initiated, either as individuals or as members of a coven. Pagans undergo no initiation but view nature in broadly the same terms.

Wiccans and Pagans believe that unity with ourselves, is the ultimate aim of spirituality and that what people refer to as "god", is "immanent" or within, each of us, and also, transcendent or outside us. The universe is seen as an interplay of polar, male and female energy, with primacy being accorded to the Female generative force. This prime role is often misinterpreted as meaning Wiccans don’t think men are as important as women. This is not the case, but in a society which extols the virtues of competition and domination, Wicca and Paganism provide a model which pays reverence to the ecological and organic principles which are the base of reality, and in so doing leaves the door open to our experience of our own inner reality, free from the pressures of mass market conformity.

“Know this

That unless thou find what thy seekest within

Thy seeking will avail thee not”



Hope this helps Lirean. B.B.

Paganism is a blanket term for all the denominations of "natural" earth religions, such as Wicca, Druidism, Witchcraft etc, and within each of these there are more denominations, such as Traditional Witchcraft, Hereditary (cough cough), Gardnerian Wicca etc etc.

A lot of Pagans (but especially Wiccans and Druids) will claim that they are practicing a religion that has been handed down from generation to generation since the ancient Britains. But unfortunately in reality this is for the most part a fantasy, wishful thinking on the part of some (i.e Margaret Murray and Gerald Gardner) who were simply trying to give a very new religion more credibility.

The ideas and Gods are indeed ancient, and have been worshipped and reveered throughout history and by different civilisations, but the "organised" written rituals are for the most quite modern. However, the festivals celebrated with the turn of the wheel of the year are very old, so old that the early christians attempted to make their new religion more appealing by incorporating them into their church services. Hence Halloween replaced Samhain, which is the old Celtic New Year, and yes, the last harvest.

There are many many books out there on Paganism and Wicca etc, the vast majority are mainly rubbish and made up history lessons. However, there are some books that are worth a look at, and surprisingly, these are biographies of Witches etc, rather than "how-to" books. Lois Bourne has published some worthwhile books on the subject, as has Rae Beth and Phylllis Curott. But really it is completely down to the individual to decide what feels right for them, not what some self-important author has written in a glossy illustrated book.

Brilliant post Lirean.

Originally posted by Lirean
“Know this

That unless thou find what thy seekest within

Thy seeking will avail thee not”

I agree with this to a point ... and maybe this is just down to words / semantics ... but ...

I also believe that to seek anything is to cultivate the notion / belief that you are seperate from the thing you seek ... seeking implies effort ...

my word and I missed this??

To define Paganism is a very difficult thing indeed because in some schools of thought satanism would be included in it.

Little Witch got most of the pagan definiation from a Pagan perspective but thru recent discoveries I would slam her cough cough at hereditary witches. I know of one LARGE hereditary family here in Sheffield which although is italian in origin is still hereditary.

Wiccan and paganism unfortunately go hand in hand thanks to the Pagan federation who chose to use the moral code of wicca - an it harm none. Which although is used by many pagans is mainly associated witht he religion of wiccan and not all pagans will follow this rede or law.

Wicca is a religion extremely similar to a catholic mass developed by gerald Gardner during the 1930's and formulated properly in the 1950's after the repeal of the witchcraft act. Alex Sanders later made the whole think fashionable and public after managed to pinch a copy of the Garnderian Book of Shadows (or spell book). In order to be a proper wiccan (gardnerian or alexandrian) you must be intiatied in coven by people who can trace their initiations back to Gerald Gardner or Alex Sanders.
There is now a pmovement of neo wicca propelled by programmes likes Sabrina, Charmed and Buffy which state as long as it feels right then you can do it. Whilst this is okay there are reasons for the inaitions and training...some may say control and others would say preperation for higher forces.

Personally I cannot stand wicca and it stinks of organised religion and appears to me more like catholiscm than a pagan faith.

Anymore? You can also try UKPagan.com, Ukwicca.com and wiccauk.com as well as thecauldron.net amongst others.

Moon

Hi Jamie, I see what you mean, the semantics, words eh!. Wiccan belief centres around the observation of the cycles of nature and therefore life. Each incarnation involves the search for wholeness as does each day of each incarnation. Wicca is a path towards enlightenment, not the enlightenment itself. The notion of gaining without striving is "that which is found at the end of all attainment". The search outside ourselves follows the same cycle as the weather and the stars eventually a point of "knowing" is reached, but not until many blind alleys have been explored. Its as natural as doubt turning into "personal" certainty.

True "union" whether that be described through Wicca, Druidism, Buddhism, Hinduism, whatever

"All paths lead to the mountain top"

getting it "right" is a misunderstanding of how we learn, namely by making a pigs ear of things, and hopefully having the courage to face our own "nonsense".

I personally believe that, as you rightly(in my opinion) say, searching outside implies that the answer is somewhere "out there", unfortunately their are many reasons why people would prefer to abdicate their personal locus of control to some external authority. And until all the fruitless demoralising disappointment is played out, then, and only then will people accept the mountain top is our own, and within each of us. Like the song says

"Between thought and expression lies a lifetime?"

When people feel that nature religions are re-invented versions of older religions they seem to miss the point. The point being, that "I exist" as do you, and need no more permission to be, as does a river or a tree. We all contain the "truth" we are the "truth", everything is real over a certain range of applicability
so "absolute truth" is the illusion, as the only real way to know is to know our own being, and in so doing know the being of all. This is how we arrive at the centre of the wheel, from our own perspective "knowing" can only take us to the threshold of being, and it is in our own existence that truth is found.

"To thine own self be true"

Hope I haven't sent anyone cross eyed, hope it helps Lirean. B.B.

Sorry about the cough cough MoonMaiden :blush: , what I really meant was that the vast majority of those calling themselves Hereditary witches have actually learnt all they know from books written by Gardner and Sanders et al. Lying about a religion doesn't do it's other followers any favours, and makes us all look like cranks and weirdos. I do accept, however, that there are a very few families of witches who's lineage can be traced back over tha centuries - Strega being one of them.

Still friends?? Yeah?? :thumbsup: ;)

I also agree with you about Wicca. :rolleyes: But, each to their own I suppose. :P

friends...we were ever enemies?? A disagreement is just that not an excuse for vendetta.

Alot of people enjoy putting complications in the way of paganism when it is really very simple. I was speaking to my mum about it the other day and she had such a complicated view on it. That you had to be involved in ritual and ceremonies every two mins to take the name as your own.
Looks like my mum always been a pagan and just got too complicated view of it to ever look further...which is a shame she make a damned good witch too.

Moon

Hi Lirean,

Thanks for the reply.

My thoughts on ...



re: Seeking.

I know what I mean to say here ... but can I find I words !!!?

I was suggesting that to seek (for anything 'external' OR 'internal' OR otherwise) is also to perpetuate a situation whereby you tell yourself that you are seperate from that which you seek.

In the way that I see it 'seeking' is a human activity that invloves a degree of effort and could be likened to 'trying to make grass grow faster by pulling at it'.

To refrain from looking ... is to find (in a back to front kinda way).

Do I have it 'right' or not !? ... I can honestly say that I do not know.



re: Different paths.

YAY to all paths !!

I guess they only have value in so much as they help us (human brothers and sisters) along our merry way. They have no value in and of themselves. It is we that have value.

When people blindly following of any path (religion / system / whatever) and place more value on that path than on themselves ... then eventually the cogs will stop turning and something will give.

I would not say that I am a <anything> or give any label to myself. It would be a lie. I am just as I am worts an all.

I guess it happens to be this way. Some people say 'I am a wiccan'. Some say 'I am a witch'. Others say 'I am a pagan'.

I say that is just what you practice and follow at this time ... it is not what you are ... it is only the 'book' that you read or the 'tool' that you use.



You are sure right about getting it wrong though Lirean ... something I specialise in !!

Take care,
Jamie.

p.s. Have the sheffield forum thread faries been around these parts lately !?

Deleted cos aint no place for sincerity.

****************

actually no, comparing wicca with catholiscim is like comparing anything. You yourself have stated reasons. I am posting in a forum where the vast majority of people have little comprehension beyond mass media hype and childhood fairy tales as to what paganism and witchcraft is, so simple comparisons however much they may get up your nose are highly useful. I make no accusation, I simply don't like it and express my myself as I see fit. If you have a problem with it, get over it.

Also I may add that little witch also stated that the vast majority of people who claim hereditary claim it because the people who usually state it don't have any actual claim to title, which if you read she stated after my own comments.

Nine million women ROFLMAO. As far I am aware no witches were persecuted - christians and good god fearing people were pesecuted, tortured and then murdered by their church, which is a tradgedy in itself. To then insult the craft even more to then state that they were witches not to mention the insult any christian would feel is in rather bad taste don't ya think. Sort of like calling the Jews Nazi's cos they lived in Germany.

If you are looking for a pagan holocaust look elsewhere cos the 'burning times' *cough puke* are not it. May I also suggest you research your figures, they look like pagan/christian/femnist propaganda and completely devoid of all historical research. If so many people died during that period then why are there NO records of any trials what so ever in the South Yorkshire Area? Ya know nine million people but yet an entire area of the largest county in the united Kingdom got left out. Please feel free to double reference my statement with the pagan federation or alternatively get up go out and do the work for yourself because you seem to be reguritating some american twaddle that just didn't happen.
You could also try reading - Anything by Ronald Hutton is highly educational and entertaining and well researched. With regards to the Witch Trials, you wouldn't go far wrong in reading "Wicce Witch Mothergoose" - an unbiased account of the entire period looking at cause, trials and properly researched figures by an actual historian as opposed to a pagan with a chip on their shoulder. I believe the author sites about 68 thousand people who died (no book to hand to double check sorry) for the entire period covering all the countries the hysteria appeared in - that is 1000 years. Sort of puts you 9 million into a bit of perspective doesn't it

To practise what you preach it really helps to know what it is you are practising.

Moon Maiden

It seems that the people "little witch" acuses of lying are merely expressing knowledge she does not know, smacks of sour grapes, to me.

lol. Oh Rowan22, stop reading books published by Llewellyn.

And incidentally, I DO know the knowledge these charlatans apparently know, as I too have read Janet and Stewart Farrar's "A Witches' Bible", and Silver Ravenwolf's "To Ride A Silver broomstick". So does that make ME a hereditary?

http://wicca.timerift.net/ravenwolf.html - read me

Bumblebee!!

Are you taking something Rowan22? What does it matter whether someone gets their entry either word perfect, gramatically perfect, or even the spelling correct? Surely that is detracting from the issue? I cn rite like this if I wont to. It does not really have any relevance with the topic.

Research into the occult and wichcraft? Twenty years plus? Wow - I have been studying for thirty years plus, but there are people who have only been studying a few years and may have picked up more than either of us - depending on the material available. So don't even think of going there cos its a wasted argument.

The ascent of Man - come on - next you'll be using Darwin to explain quantum theory.

But surely the question posed here, or the debate that has been raging for a very long time, is that of how many witches were killed during the burning times? And there are hardly any at all. Most people killed were just common people - so that also has no relevance. I think you are losing the plot a bit here.

Your next paragraph is just inane. You are talking about something you obviously know nothing about. Hark at me - an initiated wiccan with lineage - I am so ashamed. You cannot rationalise the craft cos then it stops being what it is. Can you not even understand that simple fact?

From then on you do nothing but waffle and contribute in no way to the topic at hand. What is your problem? A feww people were having an interesting conversation, keeping terminology simple because long words can confuse some people - such as yourself - and refering to written texts on the information, as well as to experience they, or someone they know, has had in the occult and you think having a thesaurus in your head is going to help.

It is people such as yourself who are the bane of those in the Real Craft. We do not need your overlarge words or your diatribe. We like the simple things.

There are many of us who do not hold the associations you do, and the books you refer to are not scientific fact, but someones interpretation of possabilities, one of which may or may not be what is written. But those really in the craft - who have a life based around it - just want to debate and live their magic, while for such as yourself, according to your post, it is never going to be anything more than a game.

Think you need to do more research, and before you start talking witchcraft to real witches - try reading some of the simpler books on magic and witches like - Hansel and Grettal.

I do not care about the spelling errors or the faulty grammar. I have an 'A' level in english and I still wont 2 talk lyke this so - merry yule.

Dragon
The Real Undead

I stand by my comments - there were no witches killed at the hands of trials or hearings held by the church.....are you sure you not a christian here to push their propaganda?

I really think you should go back to your new age commune and converse with your spirit guide cos you are really loosing the plot here. All religions adhere in some form or another rely on an authority and/or holy law - Wicca -Rule of Three, Rede - Norse Heathenism - Nine Noble Virtues. Each branch of paganism has their own 'rede' to live by....so bring on something else dear.

For all your spiritual babble - you neglect to use the things the divine gave you dear - your fingers, then you would find the rug from under your feet...or perhaps not because what you would find would be completely beyond your comprehension.
Following links and conducting research of your own. You can attempt to throw your idle and pathetic insults at my person and ability in the craft all you like but I am assured of what I am as are those that know me - both on and offline.

You are neither pagan or witch - WOW really? Wouldn't have guessed that one coming would we? It takes a witch to a know a witch darling and you are no where near by a looong shot. Your attitude and theories are that of any new ager in full swing of a midlife crisis.

I am really not going to justify my beliefs or practises to a new age fluff bunny who despite showing some capcity to operate a computer is unable to do as stated or who is present in the local community and thinks they talking to a neophyte. Lirean managed to find me.

Oh - just out of interest are you related to Kevin Carlyon (http://www.kevincarlyon.co.uk/) by any chance....you should really get talking to him - you have so much in common.

Moon Maiden

Oh yes! Kevin Carlyon! He did that "ritual" to discover the loch ness monster, didn't he? And he went on Kilroy wearing a manky old bath robe. Hmm. He also doesn't "agree" with homosexual relationships. I personally don't think he's enlightened at all. Just another sad little man trying to impress those who don't know any better with long words and incredulous claims. (yes, rowan, that was a FOUR syllable word - good job I've got a degree in English so that I can keep up with you, isn't it!!!)

I agree wholeheartedly with dragon about the book reading. You haven't read a book in twenty years, rowan? Wow. Is that because you've read all the books ever written, or just because you think you have?

I think a "basic" English grammar textbook might be a good place for you to start your "research".
Which basic Grammar text book would that be? I've got them all, having studied English for three years solid. Although i prefer the more advanced text books - a bit more on MoonMaiden and myself's level, I think. :)

The "research" resources you cite....there [correction - they're] a bit biased aren't they?, anyone whose [correction -who's] studied(beyond NVQ 1) would be more rigorous (that means thorough) in establishing the objectivity of their sources.

The sources I cite are exactly that - biased - and that was the point I was attempting to make. Obviously I wasn't making it clear enough, or you would have grasped it. :rolleyes:

I think it's sad and a bit of a shame that you feel the need to flame MoonMaiden and myself, never mind trying to make out that we are somehow of a lower intelligence than you. Where's your evidence of this superiority you feel that you have over us, and probably the rest of the forum members (maybe in one of those basic grammar books!!)? I completely believe that you are neither a Witch nor a Pagan - however, I cannot believe that you are a human being, as you claim to be - you're just too odd.
:rolleyes:

Bumblebee!!!

Your statement is so off the mark it is unreal. How can you say what other people should think? You cannot - you can only state your opinion. I did not use the references to quantum theory and darwin as a proof to anything other than how much sense your references did not make. So the only thing I actually slagged off as you put it was your version of the ascent of man. You losing it? Is this too complicated for you?

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? You are attempting to put into words something that can only be felt, and therefor blows away your entire comments on that front. Is the dream reality or reality the dream? When you are asleep you dream and rarely realise you are dreaming - so that becomes your reality, and all else is a fantasy. There is no must in magic or the craft. There are endless possabilities, and unfortunately some of those are as you perceive them, though not the one I am living in.

Every day something new is being descovered based on the fantasies of old, so you could say that science has its foundation based on magik, and all your scientific rules are only there to sustain people such a yourself - who cannot rely upon themselves.

Science proves nothing. It is only our acceptance of the rules that say there is such a thing as science. You can explain why a light comes on when I press a switch, but no matter how you try you cannot explain why beyond anything other than supposition and your own tutored belief. Reality is shaped by the acts of man so you lose out on that one completely.

Your next comments are just a repeat of your previous one, and the laws of science that you quote are flexible which is why science works at all. And as you are so fond of bringing up the topic of mathematics - according to quantum nothing is set in stone - not even all your scientific laws. Read up on it a bit more.

Actually according to chaos theory some of the time you may break your leg if you jumped off the roof and sometimes you would break both and sometimes you would walk away without a scratch. So you need take more into account than gravity. And there has been scientific tests that show this chaos if you care to research it.

There are also many many many things beyond the scope of current science to explain, and therefor we have people like you to attempt to squash the unprovable.

You post continues along this vein and it is obvious to anyone who reads it that you really have no idea about the basics of wicca or the craft. We are not talking about a set of laws and provable facts here - we are talking about belief, and everyone has belief in something.

Your attack on peoples use of grammar and the english language have vanished except for some lame excuse about your grammar checker - LOL because you have no foundation for those insults, and we should let that part drop for exactly those reasons.

Again and again you miss the entire point of the discussion - which is about what people believe. You fail to observe that history itself is based on how peoplesaw it - lots of guesswork and adding one and one to get a possible result.

Witchcraft is not bound by your ideals or your laws or by your science. You can always find rules created to support something you talk about, and we get things like buoyancy and motion, but these things are lame when you really think about a two hundred chunk of steel flying safely through the air or a two hundred ton lump of steel floating on water.

Our reality is what we make it.

Your comments are sad; your reasoning flawed; your insults pathetic. You open a can of worms and use partial arguments to state your case. Your only idea is to preach what people must believe because it is what you believe.

You really have no grasp on the craft and ought to return to reading and learning, rather than relying on the little you picked up a long time ago.

Other than that - I feel sorry for you and your closed minded views, and the fact you seem unable to argue one point at a time and must create a complex novel which actually states nothing.

Live and learn, and do not cling too tightly to a set of dogmatic rules that may be disproved in years to come.

Dragon

To address your slurs - my quote was actually given to me by a friend and I liked it - his source I have no knowledge of. Thank you for the reference tho I will look it up.

With regards to my quantity of posts - you may note that I am a moderator and as such have a role in this forum which means that my post count is that much higher than ordinary members on here. A little common sense may be in order there...you don't appear to believe in miracles or magik so try fact.

Your comments throughout have shown me a great deal. You have no idea of what witchcraft is about, beyond the mass media hype. Your descriptions maybe very close to the mark for alot of pagans, but not the craft. That level of ignorance is just beautiful.

Your level of disdain for peoples comments on this thread is really pathetic, considering that a number of people who have posted on this thread are actively involved in wicca/witchcraft and paganism whether their ideas are deluded or not is not in question but what their practises are about. Please feel free to search the forum for other threads where you can freely slag off the beliefs and practises of a large part of United Kingdom. You talk of qualifications - I believe that there are at least three people involved in this thread who are more "qualified" to speak of the subject matter than you appear to be and in a better position to speak badly of any part of it.

From the word go you have sought to make less than savoury opinions of posters here and made "assumptions" beyond your aparent scope of "knowledge" and made no attempt to rectify your "ignorance".

If I didn't know any better I would have thought you have joined this forum just to cause trouble...

Moon Maiden

Yes, I am beginning to believe that "rowan22" has only joined this forum to cause trouble. Which is sad. Maybe YOU'VE got too much time on your hands, "rowan22". Get out into the world and learn that you don't have to be spiteful and uninformed to be an "interesting" person.

You really have no point to what you are saying. You are simply copy and pasting lines out of books, or, most probably, off disreputable websites you've found, to attempt to appear articulate and of a higher intelligence. Unfortunately, as you can probably see from the posts in this thread, you have only managed to make yourself look foolish and very sad. Do you speak to people like this in "real life"? I feel so sorry for you if you do.

I probably shouldn't be too harsh on you, after all, i don't know anything about you other than what you have displayed through your rambling posts. But I do get the feeling that you must have been treated very badly at some point in your life, and so now your reaction is to abuse others.

In all seriousness now, there are people out there who can help you feel better about yourself, they will talk to you about your problems, and help you get back on your feet again. You seem to have a lot of anger and frustration inside you, for what reason I don't know. My advice to you is to do something about it now, before your internal anger consumes you completely. It's not too late to help yourself, "rowan22". Good luck!! :thumbsup:

Actually ... please don't stop rowan22 (and I for one am not making mok pleasantries ... unlike some posts which are so transparently designed to goad you) ... you do make some very good points ... which says a lot of good things about yourself.

Infact this is a rather interesting thread although maybe it should be re-named "bitch-craft" !? ... (pleeeeez ... no spells or curses lol) ... because that is all you all seem to be doing.

Do you not think that perhaps you all have different view points / perspective to one other ... and what one thing is to one person is another thing to another person !?

Does someone having a different view point / perspective to you mean that they are out to cause trouble !?

Is one view point better than another ... and does it make you better / worse than another human being ... or them wrong and you right !?

All I see here is people throwing out hate and negative stuff at each other.

What you say about other people says a lot more about you than it does the other guy ...

Not at all Jamie. Everyone should have their own opinion - it's what makes us all unique, and what makes this forum interesting. It's when people try and push their opinion on you by making out that you are stupid for not believing the same, that i get angry.

That is unfortunately what "rowan22" is doing. He is insinuating that myself, Moon Maiden and Dragon are somehow "inferior" or of a lower intelligence than him, just because we have a different opinion. That's not fair, and it isn't right. Just because we have different opinions than him, does not make us less intelligent or lacking in education.

If he were to offer an intelligent debate, then there would be no problems. It's when he begins insulting others for having an opinion that problems occur.

I do not hate "rowan22", I would just like to understand why he is being so viscious. He has his opinion, I have mine, but there is no need to become abusive towards me. I don't go out to goad, him, i am just returning the favour. I know I should be "bigger" than that, and rise above his childish behaviour, but I am only human, and when someone smarmily suggests that i am stupid (when i know I'm not) I have to defend myself.

I'm sorry Jamie but no. This is no where near bitch craft.

Rowan made certain comments in their initial post that i personally found very offensive and perhaps yes I jumped. But this person has no concept of the topic at hand which is paganism and wicca and I am not about to stand by and watch a faith such as this be torn apart by the clueless. Whilst I do not ascribe to the faiths detailed in the topic title I happen to know alot of people who do and have researched them heavily due to my own searchings for a path.
My post was not an attack it gave some very clear and concise points that are wasily researched by anyone and Rowan came back with a rather pathetic attack on all that had been posted.

If they could for one second take their head out of their rear and have a serious conversation on the subject then I may find my way clear to address the issues they have brought up. They are also more than welcome to bring the discussion to a site where they can talk to a huge amount of people who know more than I, but I doubt they the courage of their convictions.

I always give as good as I get and I have re-read my initial post to them and they have recieved no more than any other person would have done in any other forum I visit.. and I have never recieved such a pathetic post to that in my whole internet life. This may be down to the fact that I post alot to pagan and wicca/witchcraft sites and they actually know what they are talking about as opposed to our dear Rowan.

Moon Maiden

I guess everyone's adding fuel to the 'fire' here ......

I just hope it cools down a bit because it is an interesting thread and there are some points I'd like to explore and get different perspectives on.

However.

It is not for me (or anyone else) to dictate how things are to another person ... although I guess we all have this tendancy to a degree ... the "make them see things my so I can re-enforce my own perspective" syndrome.

Saying "this is how it is" to other peeps is just plain arrogant and will rightly create resistance in the other person (and I know I am guilty of doing this at times).

I am quite happy that we're at different places spirtitualy ... it does not make us better / worse than the other guy and it's not a race / competition.

Perhaps the more 'enlightened' of us should naturally be more nurturing and loving ?? ... or maybe not.

- Jamie.

I agree, Jamie, some interesting points made on this thread. I would have preferred a general type discussion like the first few posts, which is what I think the regulars were trying to maintain. As far as I can tell, Rowan believes in the superiority of science, of hypotheses and proof, wheras the pagans/Wiccans on the thread believe that 'proof' is just a possibility, and the real nature of phenomena is unknown/unknowable.

Is this about the size of it?

Here here Jamie :) and oxbeast :)

I agree that we will have to disagree as there seems no middle ground for some. We all live with science and the laws are forced upon us from a very early age. These laws are not inflexible or we would all believe the world is flat - and I know there are those who still believe this (and put up a good argument for it).

Truth is that I tend to get annoyed as soon as someone says - This is so and you must believe it or you are wrong, without discussing the toipic, but resorting to petty remarks, as I am also guilty of. Tit-for-tat is not a very mature thing. I appologise.

I am a practicing magik user and have been for over thirty years, much of that time spent reading lots of different material, and participation. I know where my faith is and should not be ridiculed for my beliefs - just as others should not for theirs.

I know everyone has their strong points and their weaknesses so it is wrong to castigate someone for their failings. However the topic was about the craft when I first posted, and in defence of the craft I will always stand.

Dragon

Originally posted by Dragon
We all live with science and the laws are forced upon us from a very early age. These laws are not inflexible ...

I agree Dragon.

My own opinion / experience is that science is very much limited in scope and is in no way the be all and end all of things ... and there is sooooo much behond it (still ... I know I am no expert in such things).

I certainly wouldn't want to do away with science though ... and if I am hit by a car tommorow ... I wanna get me in the hallamshire ASAP and get me all the science I can ... I don't want any 'wand waving'.

I think everything has it's own part to play ... and science and any form of mysticism / spritual development are in no way mutually exclusive.

I do not have any qualification in any of the traditions / paths mentioned in this thread ... but I do think that on a deeper level ... 'science' and 'mysticism' ARE YOU ... using what you are in different ways ... and both have the same source.

Shouldn't it just be about using what we have (what ever that may be) to help ourselves get through life the best we can ...

p.s. Sorry bout the 'bitch-craft' comment ... couldn't help myself !!

Yes, I agree completely, Jamie. Trying to shout someone down, and abusing them for their beliefs, is how the majority - if not all - the wars in this world started.

I will apologise for the things I said which could be perceived as biting back or childish quips, but I stand by my reason for saying them. No-one has the right to tell me I'm stupid because of my beliefs - just the same as I would never tell someone they were stupid for believing something different to me (apart from maybe deciding to do a paracute jump without a parachute), and so "rowan22", I will take your comments and abuse in the light I hope that they were written in - lighthearted banter - and hope you will do the same for me.

I unfortunately have to accept that there will always be people out there who attack my intelligence or education because of the things I say or the gods I believe in etc, and I suppose, in the words of a good old friend, "that's the way the cookie crumbles".

At the end of the day, live and let live.:)

However, at the risk of dragging it all up again, I would still like to know why "rowan22" believed my grammar and spelling to be incorrect. This has nothing to do with the topic at hand, I know, but it has really puzzled me. :loopy:

Surprising that someone of your clear erudition would not realise that this:

[if you are going to] quote Voltaire at the end of your posts please find the correct quote. Because I to would ?Defend unto death your right to say it?.

is a case of humourlessness on your part rather than misquotation on Moon Maiden's part.

The well known Voltaire quote is such a cliche now (even Lemmy uses it) that really only corruptions of it are in common currency. It is such a ubiquitous statement that it is largely redundant of any meaning.

Like Bakunin (my sig) inverting another platitude from who else, but Voltaire?

Voltaire was such an aphoristic gasbag that this is surely the fate all his 'sayings' deserve.

That is one of the things about there being so many variations in the craft, from those who follow pantheons to those who believe in the self. Diversty and knowledge without rigid rules.

May have been harsh on Rowan but was asked for. You attack my faith you better have solid argument to back up your debate.

I'm not wiccan. I am magik user.

Dragon

I sincerely hope that with the latest round of posts that this can get back to subject.

The problem here which has been stated is that we are dealing with belief systems. I am happy for people not to agree with that which i believe but o down and out attack someone for it is a no no as far as I am concerned. Bitch craft is a common occurance unfortunately and is well played in the Sheffield communty.

I know Jamie has experessed an interest in paganism before. I think you asked if there was any open day or something.

So back to basics - what are peoples beliefs or interpreations of the faiths which come under the umbrella of paganism?

Moon

Deleted cos aint no place for sincerity.

Something makes me think that you'll fit in just fine here.

(a member who has been observing this thread with interest)

I take it this is a truce then to some serious and extremely interesting debate.

Amma Iset
Moon Maiden

No hard feelings I hope. I think we were all responsible for a degree of over-reaction, and it is a shame that such turns to personal attacks.

I personally know how difficult it can be to appear open minded, and that some see openess as a weakness. Science definitely has its place in my life, and I am liable to use it on occassion for similar ends to those used here.

Belief is a difficult thing to pigeon hole with any set of rules, especially when the believers themselves may be on unsteady ground. I hope the the main topic can now be returned to and look forwards to continuing to watch this site - though I rarely post.

Some interesting topics, but my interests are split between my faith and something else altogether.

Appologies if I spoke out of turn.

Dragon

Bumblebee!!!

Originally posted by Moon Maiden


So back to basics - what are peoples beliefs or interpreations of the faiths which come under the umbrella of paganism?

Moon
well I would never described myself as one, but from what I have been reading here (apart from a magical (note spelling) outbreak into a nexus of peace and goodwill) I am one.

Hmmm. This does not sit well with my dogmatic rationalism.

The fact that our little "misunderstandings" between us have been resolved amicably and without upset displays your intelligence far better than long words or quotes could ever do, rowan22.

Welcome to the sheffield forum - i look forward to debating with you in the future!! :D :thumbsup: :P

So back to basics - what are peoples beliefs or interpreations of the faiths which come under the umbrella of paganism?

Well, I consider myself a Witch and a Pagan. I don't go in for any rigid beliefs as such, just try and lead a good life, and take every opportunity I can to learn more.

I used to be Wiccan, but soon found the rituals too set for my liking (ok, so i couldn't remember the words or what order to call the quarters in!!). Also, my spells work just as well without having to say any special words or speak in rhyme, so my eclectic laid back witchcraft works well enough for me. :) Or maybe I'm just a lazy witch!! :D

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
well I would never described myself as one, but from what I have been reading here (apart from a magical (note spelling) outbreak into a nexus of peace and goodwill) I am one.

Hmmm. This does not sit well with my dogmatic rationalism.

You are one what?

Originally posted by LittleWitch
I don't go in for any rigid beliefs as such, just try and lead a good life, and take every opportunity I can to learn more.

I am pretty much the same LittleWich.

Athough I am loathed to call myself anything or pigeon hole myself as one thing or another. It would (to me) feel like saying "I am <this> or a <that>" and identifying myself with whatever word I used to describe myself. Repeatedly telling myself inside my own head "I am a <this>" ...

I am not anything ... I just am.

I try to get away from words ... and lay myself open to feeling the energy the essence and the spirit of things ... without labeling them.

Having said all that ... I have a background in Taoism and I am very proud of the way this has shaped me. I am no longer training but I will always have the utmost respect (and fondness) for the people who have guided and helped me there.

So I can well understand how you're all so defensive about your respective systems.

The problem with labels is well argued and debated in pagan circles. People don't see the reasons for labelling themselves as it immediately creates expectations within anothers mind as to what you should know/do/behave.

In the vast majority of cases I would say that I agree with you Jamie, however in some instances there are levels of training and intiation to go thru to attain a title. It is extremely disrespectful and annoying for someone who has trained and studied hard in say Wicca for some 17 year old buffy fan to read a book by Silver Ravenwolf and proclaim themselves wiccan. They have no right to the title, have probably never even met a wicca and probably never will. They have been dubbed in circles as weekend wiccans...amongst other derogatory titles.

There is a growing movement within paganism of these youngsters who - as Littlewitch initially pointed out - read a book and suddenly lay claim to a title such as wicca. The best are those who proclaim themselves shamans at 16. The titles are important, it is generally something you earn as opposed to labelling yourself.
I did not call myself a witch until I had earned it, and whilst I don't begrudge anyone wishing to find a place they belong and attaching a name to themselves, it is damned annoying to speak to people who say they are witches when it is clear to anyone who has trained that they are not.

Moon Maiden

Hi Moon Maiden.

I have no problem at all with anything you say there ...

I am happy to have no label for myself ... but if other people wish to label themselves ... I am ok with that too.

I agree with you that some people give themsleves titles which they have not rightly earned and have not been bestowed upon them via the correct channel / means.

They have missed the mark and are more concerned with the appearance of things and have no real connection with that which claim.

I would suggest that they mok themselves more than they mok the tradition to which they claim membership ... and should be left to fall over their own cleverness ... and hopefully learn and move on.

Maybe you would tackle people like this differently to me ... but that's fine (and I probably am way too soft natured for my own good).

I guess it is a question of an individuals attitude and having a deep respect for the tradition that they follow.

I know that I am very very small fry in the grand scheme of things (and I hope that I never consider myself otherwise) ... and this is especially true when I contrast myself against some of the truely acheived people I have had the good fortune to cross paths with.

One more thing that I consider is that the people who lay false claim to title and are overly concerned with image ... is that for all their faults ... I also have or have had at some time ... the very same problems.

All the best to you Moon.

Jamie.

The way people deal with these types of folks vary. I used to simply point out to them what it was they were doign and hopefully make them think about why they were taking the name. Depending on what mood i am in would really depend on how I would point it out to them.

They will eventually come unstuck as you say but they do so much damage in the process. For example - Rowan has preconceptions of who they were speaking to in these forums. Possibly (and please correct me if I am wrong) believing that we were newcomers doind just what I have been speaking about, with no triaing or research/study/or practise. Beucase of people who just pick up a title as they would pick up the lastest fashion they give the rest of us a bad image and make things 100% harder when trying to get points across.

The proof is in the pudding and as I said, I am assured of what I am, if others care not to believe or accept that, that is entirely up to them.

Moon Maiden

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
The way people deal with these types of folks vary. I used to simply point out to them what it was they were doign and hopefully make them think about why they were taking the name. Depending on what mood i am in would really depend on how I would point it out to them.

Actually I think you're quite right there Moon Maiden.

Softly softly is fine for people who have the sensetivity to respond to a gentle indication that they're out of order ... for those that do not heed such ... it is wholey wrong to let them walk all over yourself and your tradition ... for such people you do need a 'big stick' to hit them with ... and it is appropriate to use it.

Jamie.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/3859435.stm

I just found this. Not saying I agree with it, just observing how his religion has been focused on as evidence of wierdness. Reminds me of how much focus there was on Dr David Kelley's conversion to Ba'hai. Do you lot (i.e. the practicioners) experience much prejudice from society? Do you think people treat you differently when people find out that you are a witch?

Generally i have not experienced any intolerance for my beliefs or practises. There was one Jewish lady at the Sheffield Fayre who made a point of telling me about the higher power she knew about that was higher than mine when we had the stall there...but otherwise nothing.
I find people are generally quite intrigued when I say I am a witch. Otheriwse they try and correct me and say "wiccan"...erm no.

*groan* Oh look Black magic - woah is me. There is no such thing as black or white magik or magic. That article you have linked to there is wonderful bits of sensationalism that the media like to use to make an fairly ordinary situation newsworthy.

Whilst I do not know a great deal about Druidry, i do know that their magiks are more earth/nature based and many of the orders seek to unite christianity with paganism. It may interest folk to know that Prince Charles is part of a Druid order oooo scary. :rolleyes:

I find that article rather sad really. There is so much information out there - some of it on the BBC website - that the journalist could have accessed to balance the article out, but no. Wouldn't make it on the news would it if the old fella just cast off Reggie Perrin style would it?

*sigh*

Moon Maiden

Druidry is the 'branch' that I am most familiar with, although mostly second hand. I'm interested by your statement that their practice is more earth/nature based. What is yours based on? I thought that all braches of paganism were essentially nature worship/veneration/interaction. I'm a bit puzzled by attempts to merge paganism and christianity. I thought that was what we had already.

Also, what is the difference between magik and magic?

I agree that his Druidic beliefs have only been included in the article to sensationalise it. But interviewing the known associates of a man dead in suspicions circumstances seesm locigal, no matter who they were.

I'm interested by your statement that their practice is more earth/nature based. What is yours based on? I thought that all braches of paganism were essentially nature worship/veneration/interaction.

I meant really that there is more emphasis on nature within their practises and they are less likely to incoporate other elements either to their worship or magiks.
My beliefs those of a witch and for all intense and purposes not all witches worship or even acknowledge diety. I work with any entity that shows it face regardless of where it originates from. From fairies to ghosts to angels and demons - what ever they decide to label themselves the energies are there to be worked with and I see it as my role to be capable of doing so. I personally do not call myself pagan. I do not try to follow a belief system that was around pre-roman, but I am happy to study it.

My personal association is family led thru Isis, which seem silly considering how attached and protective about the UK I am. But the connection was made before I was born and I feel at the moment unable to argue.

Also, what is the difference between magik and magic?
Aleister Crowley and Paul Daniels. Witch or Illusionist. The spelling was done by Mr Crowley himself I believe who wished to distance occultist from slight of hand workers.

Someone else can add too.....i not the only witch or pagan on ere :confused:

I haven't ever really come across problems due to my beliefs. However, for a while my mum took it upon herself to tell everyone she knew that her daughter was a witch - that caused some awkward situations, as I don't tend to shout it from the rooftops, only telling people I feel comfortable around.

To be honest, i feel no great urge to tell the people around me that i am a witch, as it has nothing to do with my interactions with them. For all I know they could be jewish, christian, muslim, buddhist, shinto or whatever. Doesn't make a difference to me. As long as they never used religion as an excuse to act superior or make me feel inferior or stupid, I don't see why it should come up.

However, if people find out I'm a witch, and then ask me about it, I talk to them. Nine times out of ten, they only ask because they hope to hear a sensationalist story about how I ride on a broomstick or spend Friday night bent over a cauldron (I do that sometimes, though!!). When I explain what it really is to be a witch, the usually quickly lose interest, and then I'll know never to bring it up again.

However, occasionally someone will become fascinated when they learn what it really is to be a witch, and we have some really positive indepth conversations. But it is unfortunately still the case that when most people find out you're a witch, they either laugh at you, think you're lying, or run away scared.

Oh for the day when that all changes...

Deleted cos aint no place for sincerity.

Very well said rowan22.

How can a person be truely strong unless they first accept and embrace their own weakness and vulnerability ?

I also believe that weakness is no failure ... perhaps pretending that you have no weakness / vulnerability is ...

And while I'm in 'rant mode' ... IT IS PERFECTLY OK TO CRY (and I mean men too) ... it is a completely natural process that changes your energetic and emotional state for the better (the feeling of release ... 'ah thats better').

So why does society tell me it is wrong and why all the stigma attached to a natural function !?

Deleted cos aint no place for sincerity.

Whilst all this is wonderful therapy and male bonding kinda stuff....not really relevant is it? Why not start up a new thread - Social Conditioning of the male gender role?
All credit to you Rowan, well done and all that, but there was a point to the original post and it would be nice to get it back on track for their benefit or leave the post to wander down the list.

Moon Maiden

Well Jamie I hope that has said more about “Moon Maiden” than I ever could.

No actually Rowan - I think it has said more about you.

Moon Maiden

Originally posted by Rowan22
Well Jamie I hope that has said more about “Baffoon Maiden” than I ever could.

Being a new member here, insulting the staff isnt going to get you anywhere me thinks.

Consider that personal attack noted in your member profile.

So - after that small show of 'dummys out of the pram' back to the topic at hand, for any who may be interested.

The umbrella term pagan is, it seems, referring more and more to the practice of wicca, and less of an umbrella term for other branches of the craft. Seems that the new age is bringing in its own menings for words in the language - so perhaps we would be better devising a new term that encompasses all, yet rolls nicely off the tongue.

Having recently reverted to old practices and an old belief system, I could not count myself under any term that included wicca as a reasonable path for any other than someone new to the craft.

Still - I know there arte those with different ideas, and good for them. Wishing them all the best.

I have met many wiccans and there are two results of this - after talking to them they advance fromt he faith of wicca, or after talking to them they come across to anyone listening as worse than fanatical christians. That may sound unfair, but it only refers to those I have met, and I am certain there are those who come somewhere in the middle of the two ranges.

All in all - I do not like the umbrella term and thats it. Nuff sid.

Dragon

Yes dragon, have to agree with you there. Most people are introduced to the magickal crafts in general through Wicca (I was). However, i personally see Wicca as more of a "starter" - preparing you for the main course of whatever path you chose to move on to. Wicca is good for starters, because it encourages positive thought and kindness, etc, but is, IMO, a little too "idealistic" for everyday, long-term use.

i know that there are many people who will always be Wiccan, and that is fine - everyone has their own path to walk. But for me, Wicca was something that "lubricated" me in preparation for more intensive magickal learning. I now see myself as a Witch and a Pagan, but no longer as a Wiccan, as i no longer feel tied by such things as the Wiccan Rede - although i do still believe in things coming back to you - whether good or bad, and dont cast negative magick if at all possible.