Why do you vote?

There is no democracy, you see it doesn't matter who you vote for nothing changes. We listen to points of view from diffeent Governments but when you pick them apart they only talk the same way.

When we vote we only vote for party change.

If there was real democracy then we would also be able to vote for regime change.

If everyone voted, rather than around a third of the population, then maybe the whole thing would be worthwhile. There is no excuse not to, except for ignorance. :rant:

Hmmmm.......

What do you mean by regime?

In Constitutional Democracies (not the UK, 'cos we don't have a formal constitution) the constitutions provide safeguards to effectively prevent changes in governance that would undermine the ability of people to replace the government every few years with a new batch.

I would say that there was a MASSIVE regime change in Britain in 1979, and a much lesser one in 1997. The US experiences less radical changes, but any country with a range of parties from left to right could experience regime change at each election.

Representative Democracy isn't the best system possible, but it's the least bad of the systems we're likely to get!

If everyone voted, rather than around a third of the population, then maybe the whole thing would be worthwhile. There is no excuse not to, except for ignorance. :rant:

No nothing will change because as I say when you strip down the policies of all Parties they are but the same. What we need is a Party with Regime change.

To reiterate JoeP. what regime do you want to change to?

Hmmmm.......

What do you mean by regime?

In Constitutional Democracies (not the UK, 'cos we don't have a formal constitution) the constitutions provide safeguards to effectively prevent changes in governance that would undermine the ability of people to replace the government every few years with a new batch.

I would say that there was a MASSIVE regime change in Britain in 1979, and a much lesser one in 1997. The US experiences less radical changes, but any country with a range of parties from left to right could experience regime change at each election.

Representative Democracy isn't the best system possible, but it's the least bad of the systems we're likely to get!

This is what i'm saying, since the Neo-Conservatives got in to power in 1979 we've been stuck with them and when you look at all other parties now there pollocies are all the same when broken down.

Now don't get me wrong I don't wish to see a puppet dictatorship brought in by a super power like in the Middle East. What I would like to see is a Party with a regime change for the better of the masses at centre of their policy rather than the one we have witch favours the rich.

The old labour party used to have a policy/regime which favoured the masses/working classes but since it got infiltrated by Neo-Conservatives the Labou party as thus become the current favoured party of Capitalists, although when you take a look at all other parties they are no different.

We need a regime change and by this I don't mean a Saddam hussain stuck in to power.

Now i'm not inteligent enough to come up with this exact regime change needed but i'm intelligent enough to see that we need it.

Representative Democracy isn't the best system possible, but it's the least bad of the systems we're likely to get!

Why vote? Because what's the alternative options to not voting? Living under an oligarchy? A dictatorship? A military junta? Who fancies living like the Burmese currently have to? Or living like the North Koreans have to?

Why vote? Because I live in a democracy. I can say who I want to govern me. I have the chance of electing someone I want to represent me, and removing someone I don't want to represent me.

Why vote? Because members of my family fought and died to give me the freedom to choose who I want to govern me, and not have to live in a totalitarian state.

Why vote? Because I believe in representative democracy. As JoeP infers, it isn't perfect, but it's the best thing we've got going when you compare the alternatives.

And lastly, why vote? Well.....I must declare a personal interest! :hihi:

Why vote? Because what's the alternative options to not voting? Living under an oligarchy? A dictatorship? A military junta? Who fancies living like the Burmese currently have to? Or living like the North Koreans have to?

Why vote? Because I live in a democracy. I can say who I want to govern me. I have the chance of electing someone I want to represent me, and removing someone I don't want to represent me.

Why vote? Because members of my family fought and died to give me the freedom to choose who I want to govern me, and not have to live in a totalitarian state.

Why vote? Because I believe in representative democracy. As JoeP infers, it isn't perfect, but it's the best thing we've got going when you compare the alternatives.

And lastly, why vote? Well.....I must declare a personal interest! :hihi:

Yeah but we do live in a Totaltarian state, no matter who we vote for their polocies are all the same and the policies that do differ don't ever work. So in reality there is ever only one Government. I feel we have been blinded but some of us are begining to see.

Are you in a state of living in the past when you keep talking of relatives and friends fighting and dying so we can have this and that?

I'm living the now and I prefer to see a change now, which needs to be a regime change to bringer a fairer life.

I too have lost members of family in the past who fought for freedom but i'm sure they'd give their lives today for freedom too and thats what i'm asking.

to quote a quote i quoted in your last thread, calvin:


Originally Posted by angle20
What passes for democracy is in reality a group of like-minded parties putting on a Punch & Judy show to give the impression that there are significant differences between them. All major parties in western democracies are, however, 'owned' by international big business and governmental institutions such as the EU.


sadly, the real point to voting is to give us the impression that we've got some kind of influence in the political sphere, to provide an opium for the masses

If everyone voted, rather than around a third of the population, then maybe the whole thing would be worthwhile. There is no excuse not to, except for ignorance. :rant:

Why is it ignorant?

I dont vote and its not because I am ignorant!!!

Yeah but we do live in a Totaltarian state, no matter who we vote for their polocies are all the same and the policies that do differ don't ever work. So in reality there is ever only one Government. I feel we have been blinded but some of us are begining to see..

If we lived in a totalitarian state, then no-one would have the vote. I hope you will soon recover from your blindness and be able to see again.

Are you in a state of living in the past when you keep talking of relatives and friends fighting and dying so we can have this and that?.

I'm living in the here and now. Is there something wrong with remembering the war dead, and for that matter, the war survivors? Are you proposing the abolishon of the annual ceremony of honouring the ward dead at The Cenotaph? No more Poppy Days?

I'm living the now and I prefer to see a change now, which needs to be a regime change to bringer a fairer life.

I too have lost members of family in the past who fought for freedom but i'm sure they'd give their lives today for freedom too and thats what i'm asking.

Err, what is "bringer"? And.... you're asking for your dead family members to give their lives today for freedom? Is there a translation anyone can offer?

to quote a quote i quoted in your last thread, calvin:


Originally Posted by angle20
What passes for democracy is in reality a group of like-minded parties putting on a Punch & Judy show to give the impression that there are significant differences between them. All major parties in western democracies are, however, 'owned' by international big business and governmental institutions such as the EU.


sadly, the real point to voting is to give us the impression that we've got some kind of influence in the political sphere, to provide an opium for the masses

My point exactly. We are only being fooled in to believing there is such a thing as democracy and so many people are begining to wake up to this.

Why are the Government considering fining us or imprisoning us if we don't vote? Easy because they want us to think we live in a democracy! But it all breaks down anyway if they do fine or improson us for not voting.

I tell you our current structure of civilisation is on the last threads. It will be a bad crazy time when it collapses but when and if we get through it without WW3 then we will be in a Euphoric society which will have taken account of all past societies/civilisations and weeded out the crap! Hopefully :hihi:

Err, what is "bringer"?

Ha Ha! :thumbsup:

If we lived in a totalitarian state, then no-one would have the vote. I hope you will soon recover from your blindness and be able to see again.




it's far easier to keep a population in check who believe that they are free

hence the voting game

To reiterate JoeP. what regime do you want to change to?
To start with get rid of the House of Parliment and have self fianancing local Goverment as wherby all taxes are paid i.e. income tax, V.A.T. road tax etc, is paid locally and spent locally and not going to central goverment to be sent abroad and not used in this country as a lot of it is at present, by local goverment I mean South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire etc. Issuses like motorways that would run through these new Local Goerments could be privatised and be fiananced by car users paying a toll. The present system sees MPs in Parliment who seem to do nothing for the area they represent and in my opinion are just a waste of money, to see your taxes being spent locally and not going to fianance a new scheme in Outer Mongolia would be a lot more heartening. To think we are one of the richest countries in the world yet most people can only afford one weeks holiday a year, somethings wrong.

I tell you our current structure of civilisation is on the last threads. It will be a bad crazy time when it collapses but when and if we get through it without WW3 then we will be in a Euphoric society which will have taken account of all past societies/civilisations and weeded out the crap! Hopefully :hihi:

Errr....? :huh:

Ok, I'll attempt this translation.....

1. Civilisation is about to collapse! :help:
2. But we might get through it without World War III occuring! :confused:
3. But nevertheless it will remain a bad crazy time :gag:
4. Then we will arrive at a "Euphoric society"? :huh:
5. This "Euphoric society" will emerge by taking account of "all" previous civilisations! :wow:
6. This "Euphoric society" will have "weeded out the crap!":thumbsup:

Crikey! I'm so relieved to know this Cliff Clavin. In fact, I'm feeling elated, er, no, I mean euphoric! :hihi:

There is no democracy, you see it doesn't matter who you vote for nothing changes. We listen to points of view from diffeent Governments but when you pick them apart they only talk the same way.

When we vote we only vote for party change.

The root cause of the problems you describe is not democracy in general: it is the type of democracy which exists in this country known as the "first past the post" system. In our system the outcome of a general election is decided by approximately one million people living in about one hundred marginal seats. Those people have no strong allegiance to one party and tend to swing from one party to another and these decisions is often heavily influenced by their personal economic self-interests (so the recession of the early 1980's which predominately affected areas of heavy industry with many safe Labour seats didn't have the same political effect as the recession of the early 1990's which wasn't as localised).

The main political parties know how the system works and focus most of their efforts on winning in those marginal seats and particularly winning over those swing voters. If you live in a safe seat you will see little or no campaigning but if you live in a marginal seat the parties that think they have a chance of winning it will flood the seat with high-profile figures, party workers and election literature. More importantly, when they work on the manifesto in the months or years before the election it is primarily aimed at those swing voters and the consequence of these things has been to bring the main political parties closer together than they have ever been. In purely economic terms the differences between the main parties are almost insignificant because their spending and taxation plans are so similar.

If we had an electoral system in which every vote in every seat had an equal effect on the outcome of the election the main parties wouldn't be able to win just by getting enough votes to win enough of a hundred particular seats. The main parties would have to fight for every vote in every seat and the need to do that might have an influence on their policies because they would have to take everyone into account and not just the one million people who matter to all of them now. However, in order to change the electoral system first you need to have sufficient power within the old system and then have the political will to change the system even though it might be to your disadvantage politically. As this is unlikely to happen the current system will continue to fall further into disrepute.

well put, fingers

Hmmmm.......

What do you mean by regime?

In Constitutional Democracies (not the UK, 'cos we don't have a formal constitution) !

There is school of thought that we are better off without a formal constitution.
if your rights are written down in black and white, then they are rights.
However if they are not written down, then it is up to the powers that be, to prove that something is not your right.
This I would imagine takes the full process of the Law to invoke.
In countries where they went from having no rights whatsover, (France, USA pehaps) to Independence, then a bill of rights was the approach to take.
The way of life in this country has evolved over hundreds of years, and to allow an elite to lay down our rights by law would be a disasterous step.

They are good enough at taking our rights from us as it is, espescially in boss/worker conflicts, without allowing them to actually enshrine their positions of power over us in a written Constitution.

If everyone voted, rather than around a third of the population, then maybe the whole thing would be worthwhile. There is no excuse not to, except for ignorance. :rant:

I disagree. There are some people who don't vote out of laziness, but I think that the majority of non-voters do so out of complete scorn for politics in general.

Politics is rotten. Politicians are self-serving, lying hypocrites out to protect the special interests of corporations and other rich people. They don't care about ordinary people. If they did there wouldn't be the huge distributions of wealth that there are in this country. There wouldn't be some many people living below the poverty line. Instead of spending huge amounts of money on defence and nuclear arsenals that are never used, it would be spent on things like health, education and police that actually make a difference to peoples quality of life.

I remember the end of John Major's government and the start of Blair's. On the day that Labour came to power in 1997, Blair made a big speech saying that his government would be above sleaze and whiter than white, in contrast to the previous Conservative government. Nine years on though, and they're just as bad as the Tories were, if not worse. Cash for peerages, lies about WMDs in Iraq, Peter Mandelson has resigned twice and David Blunkett has resigned twice. This just leads to an even greater belief that politicians are crooked.

I agree that the first-past-the-post system is partly the problem. MPs always vote according to their party line, which means that there's never really any debate about anything. If we had proportional representation then there'd be many more independents in the House of Commons, so there'd be a lot more MPs who could vote based on their own personal beliefs, as opposed to how their party leader tells them to vote.

In an ideal world I'd like to see a complete end to all major political parties. Imagine a parliament where every MP was an independent candidate. For major commons votes you'd have hundreds of MPs all voting completely independently. That would be a much better way of governing based on what's actually best for the country.

Another thing I find frustrating about current politics is the lack of choice. In the 1980s Labour and the Conservatives were fundamentally different. Voters had an actual choice between socialism and capitalism, which is what democracy should be about. Now Labour and Conservatives are both centre-right parties with few real differences between them. What's more, Menzies Campbell has decided to ditch the Lib Dems' policy of a 50% top tax rate and also move to the right. That was one of the things that made the Lib Dems different to the other two parties. Now you have three centre-right parties. Where's the choice in that?

:(

If you can't be bothered to vote......


........then don't complain.

I agree with pretty much everything Daley just said.
Maybe we'd never see people who are truely independant of a 'party' but if we abolished them and said what are your individual thoughts on this that or the other you'd probably have ex-labour members thinking the same as ex-tory, libdem, green, etc members.

Instead of Parties working against each other it should be, 'What can we do to make this country better for our people', Not a case of NEW Labour saying 'oh the Tories want to do that so we'll do the opposite'.

As for picking on Cliff for what he's saying, RedRobbo, aren't you a councillor/MP or something? Do you think attacking someone's thoughts is the right thing to do for someone in your position?

As for picking on Cliff for what he's saying, RedRobbo, aren't you a councillor/MP or something? Do you think attacking someone's thoughts is the right thing to do for someone in your position? On here Red is just the same as everyone else.

Yeah but we do live in a Totaltarian state, no matter who we vote for their polocies are all the same and the policies that do differ don't ever work.

No we don't live in a totalitarian state. Otherwise you wouldn't have the oppourtunity to start this post, never mind to criticise the government.

Things do change through the ballot box. Just because things arn't immidiate doesn't mean things aren't changing.

Party politics is fundamentally a branding excercise, which allows voters to determine where to cast their vote without having to 'get to know' their candidates.

This makes for coherent government too - all the folks wearing red ties have been voted in on the same agenda, ditto the blue and yellow ties. This makes it easy for a government (or opposition) to force them to vote a particular way in parliment - and indeed the majority of the people who voted them in have done so on the basis of their Party, not their Personal beliefs.

I think the premise of local MPs representing local interests is becoming lost in the broad-brush policy making. Sadly i dont believe enough people take an interest in their local affairs to make independant MPs a workable system - they would still need the underlying colour-coding to win sufficient votes.

Perhaps we might look at producing a system which encourages the electorate to participate more directly in legeslative voting - watch the Parliment Channel and Press the Red, Yellow or Blue buttons to vote ;) . Big Brother meets erm...Big Brother... ;)

Party Politics is often a choice between a kick in the face or a kick in the plums - you have to choose one, but that doesnt mean that you'd like either ;)

I voted Labour in the last election in the hope of a just and fair society in which to live. What do I get ? A nanny state getting more dictatorial by the minute, law and order breaking down because of a total lack of a deterrent to commit crime. Nutters, paedophiles, psychos etc. cared for in the community instead of being locked up out of harms way.
Immigration totally out of control, illegal immigrants getting 'lost' all the time, many of them criminals who are no use to this country at all.
What was the finest healthcare/wellfare system in the world being dismantled bit by bit-just try and find a NHS dentist. On top of all this we STILL have John Prescott with both feet in the trough and no boss capable of dealing with him.

I do ask myself what IS the point of voting ???

If there was real democracy then we would also be able to vote for regime change.


Here here. There should be referendum immediately to dump the monarchy and have an elected head of state.

As for picking on Cliff for what he's saying, RedRobbo, aren't you a councillor/MP or something? Do you think attacking someone's thoughts is the right thing to do for someone in your position?

Absolutely! :thumbsup:

Am I only to be allowed to express views which are in agreement with posters? Are you going to deny me free speech?

I'm a member of SF - so why shouldn't I be entitled to post my views and my opinions, including those about someone else's posts, just because I happen to be a city councillor?

I couldn't have summed up my position better than rude_boy when he posted.....

On here Red is just the same as everyone else.

Has anyone seen the Simpsons episodes where Homer finds out that the two candidates running for President are both aliens ?

Classic line when the aliens turn around to the public and say 'what you going to do? you have to vote for one of us!'

Z

Errr....? :huh:

Ok, I'll attempt this translation.....

1. Civilisation is about to collapse! :help:
2. But we might get through it without World War III occuring! :confused:
3. But nevertheless it will remain a bad crazy time :gag:
4. Then we will arrive at a "Euphoric society"? :huh:
5. This "Euphoric society" will emerge by taking account of "all" previous civilisations! :wow:
6. This "Euphoric society" will have "weeded out the crap!":thumbsup:

Crikey! I'm so relieved to know this Cliff Clavin. In fact, I'm feeling elated, er, no, I mean euphoric! :hihi:


LOL glad to have enlightened you :hihi:

I disagree. There are some people who don't vote out of laziness, but I think that the majority of non-voters do so out of complete scorn for politics in general.


:(

Well I have allways voted and my last was for Labour but I will never vote again until the right party comes along. Labour have not met any of their pollicies for Education, Crime and NHS they are no better no worse than the Tories.

Another thing I find frustrating about current politics is the lack of choice. In the 1980s Labour and the Conservatives were fundamentally different. Voters had an actual choice between socialism and capitalism, which is what democracy should be about. Now Labour and Conservatives are both centre-right parties with few real differences between them. What's more, Menzies Campbell has decided to ditch the Lib Dems' policy of a 50% top tax rate and also move to the right. That was one of the things that made the Lib Dems different to the other two parties. Now you have three centre-right parties. Where's the choice in that?

:(

Daley sums it in a nutshell

Britain has become, like the USA, a pseudo-democracy

The problem is the first past the post system,its not democratic at all,all it does is give the few voters in the marginals all the power and then ignores the millions who voted for someone else.
Of course the Labour and Tory parties know this full well and they know it suits their needs best so sod everyone else.
Until P R is brought in then people will continue to not bother voting as they know their votes dont count.
And one final thing,another reason is that their is very little to choose between any of the main parties ,they are all after the middle ground and they offer is more of the same.

whoever you vote for government wins


as the old adage goes :)

whoever you vote for government wins


as the old adage goes :)

May I recommend "Fvck the Right to Vote" by Spithead

May I recommend "***** the Right to Vote" by Spithead

used to love spithead :)

used to write to john quite abit

think i have a demo tape somewhere

May I recommend "Fvck the Right to Vote" by Spithead

Excuse my ignorance but what/who are/were Spithead? I'm guessing they are/were a band but whatever they are/were could you please tell me more about them?

Well, in Sheffield the question has to be asked what's the point.

Maybe it's this lack of drive that has culminated in a city dragging it's heels compared to rivals in progression. With rival localities powering forward to such an extent a two-bit rival town pulls in more private sector investment.

The real point to voting is to vote for someone that will work hard for your constituency, if the Tories win nationally on top in 2009/10 then you'll be sorted if you're law-abiding.

The only surprise in Sheffield is the BNP aint got no seats. As local Sheff MPs put the same amount of work in as them for the same result... nothing. Not for the good of the future of the city anyway.

Excuse my ignorance but what/who are/were Spithead? I'm guessing they are/were a band but whatever they are/were could you please tell me more about them?

spithead were (not sure if theyre still going) an anarchist punk / reggae band
in the same mould as bands such as subhumans / culture shock / citizen fish, bender, and sheffs own blind mole rat (theyre folk rather than reggae tho)

whoever you vote for government wins


as the old adage goes :)

An old adage that is SO true :(

The reality is: Voting legitimises the choice of the Establishment and makes its rule (semi)-acceptable to the people because they believe THEY have chosen it democratically for themselves.

StarSparkle

spithead were (not sure if theyre still going) an anarchist punk / reggae band
in the same mould as bands such as subhumans / culture shock / citizen fish, bender, and sheffs own blind mole rat (theyre folk rather than reggae tho)

Thank you for that info. I was curious because I remember a rock/rap band called The 25th Of May recording a song called "**** The Right To Vote". They were socialists rather than anarchists but that didn't stop them releasing an album called "Lenin & McCarthy" (which was very good) on a major record label.

Thank you for that info. I was curious because I remember a rock/rap band called The 25th Of May recording a song called "**** The Right To Vote". They were socialists rather than anarchists but that didn't stop them releasing an album called "Lenin & McCarthy" (which was very good) on a major record label.

yeah i have a few 25th of may singles :)

If everyone voted, rather than around a third of the population, then maybe the whole thing would be worthwhile. There is no excuse not to, except for ignorance. :rant:

Ignorance and the fact that I trust most of the major Politicians about as far as I could throw them :rant:

Blair is a tosser, Prescott is an arse, and don't even get me started on the Tories, biggest waste of time ever, ffs they can't even run their own Party without in-fighting and mega bitching, so how the heck can they expect to be elected to run the Country?! :loopy:

I dont bother voting it a waste of time as no matter who gets in nothing changes:hihi: :hihi:

If there was a party that would scrap the stupid political correctness laws (without being the BNP obv), and get rid of the stupid laws where a prison life sentence is 25 years, and get out in 15, and where a man can come into the country, live off benefits, and preach about killing westeners but still does not get deprted because their own country would be too dangerous for them. If there was someone like that, they would get my vote. If the BNP werent the obvious racist thugs they are, i would vote for them.

but this has not happened, so I will not vote

I dont bother voting it a waste of time as no matter who gets in nothing changes:hihi: :hihi:

Precisely my point, things are still teh same as always regardless of who gets in, so why the hell do we even bother voting to try and change things?! :rant:

yeah i have a few 25th of may singles :)

God, yeah, I remember the 25th of May - that's going back a year or two! They were very promising for a while, then I don't remember hearing anything more about them. Seem to remember the lead singer was called Tara?

StarSparkle

God, yeah, I remember the 25th of May - that's going back a year or two! They were very promising for a while, then I don't remember hearing anything more about them.

They split up and the lead singer (called Swindelli) formed a band called Manbreak but I've not heard anything by them. From the little I've read they were more rock-based than The 25th Of May.

No one has the right to complain or whinge on about the government or poicies if they do not vote ! And as for those who say they will not vote labour ..... they are obviously too young to remember what this country was like under Tory rule ! Ask your parents ! Strikes, three day weeks, NHS in decline .... need I go on !

No one has the right to complain or whinge on about the government or poicies if they do not vote ! And as for those who say they will not vote labour ..... they are obviously too young to remember what this country was like under Tory rule ! Ask your parents ! Strikes, three day weeks, NHS in decline .... need I go on !

NHS is still in decline under Labour... But does Blair do anything about it? Nope :loopy:

No one has the right to complain or whinge on about the government or poicies if they do not vote ! And as for those who say they will not vote labour ..... they are obviously too young to remember what this country was like under Tory rule ! Ask your parents ! Strikes, three day weeks, NHS in decline .... need I go on !


I'd love to vote for Labour however they don't exist anymore. New Labour (note the New here) has taken over and is nearly as bad as the old Tory party (an era in which i did grow up in).
AFAIK Labour died at around the same time John Smith (RIP) died too :(
And New Labour was born when that grinning idiot took over leadership
(correct me if i'm wrong, it was a long time ago).

New Labour are simply an exercise in fooling people,they are a joke. All they care about is the next big donation from their big buisness friends.
They sold their sole to the highest bidder and their principles.

New Labour are simply an exercise in fooling people,they are a joke. All they care about is the next big donation from their big buisness friends.
They sold their sole to the highest bidder and their principles.

"If you once forfeit the confidence of your fellow citizens, you can never regain their respect and esteem. It is true that you may fool all of the people some of the time; you can even fool some of the people all of the time; but you can’t fool all of the people all of the time."

Abraham Lincoln 1865

Bit of a sage was Lincoln:)