Lets produce a list of reasons to not vote Labour, either locally or in the next General election. I'll get the ball rolling:

Locally - in the 1980s the Labour council tried to close Sheffield 6th forms and tried to close down Silverdale school. Their current policy of "redressing the balance" is a blatant policy of favouritism - live in a Labour voting ward, and get plenty of spending. The unfavoured non-Labour wards in the SW will be neglected, not receiving enough council funding for roads, for example, which are in a terrible state.

General Election - taxes, taxes, taxes. 66 new taxes since 1997. Tax and spend a dangerous way to run the economy. Money being poured into the NHS and other public services yet yielding very little results, other than more and more public servants. House prices soaring out of control. Gun crime has doubled since 1997.

These are just a few reasons not to vote Labour. Plenty more to add.

Reasons to not vote labour -

Thousands of dead Iraqi civilians

Increased threat of terrorism

Abolishment of trial by jury

House of Lords Debacle

The Dome

ID cards

Tory policies.

Tony Blair.... there... that's one good reason!

Iraq
University top-up fees
Our 'bond' with America
Europe
More taxes (not necessarily a bad thing if they're spent wisely, but Labour have show that this is something they cannot do)
Tony Blair
John Prescott


I'll probably think of more.

labour? tory? they are pretty much the same aren't they?

Originally posted by evildrneil
labour? tory? they are pretty much the same aren't they?

Very true, if you've seen one Politician you've seen 'em all :loopy:

They're all as out for what they can get as each other IMO.

In addition to those already mentioned:

Labour no longer labour
Wholesale Corruption/Sleaze - Mandelson, Vaz, Robinson, Irvine, Vaz, Byers, Jo Moore, Milburn, Hughes, Paul Corrigan, and Blair himself!
The 'Ecclestone' fiasco
Spin and Soundbites
Cronyism/yes men in the Lords/Commons/Goverment Departments
Breaking of election manifesto pledges
5 wars in 6 years
Scottish assembly building fiasco
Blairs Sickly grin
The Blair babes
European convention on human rights/Cherie Blair/Enrichment of legal profession beginning at downing street
Gordon 'Bureaucracy' Brown


Blunkett:

"March them off to the cash machines"

"I assure the House today that top-up fees play no part in the Government's proposals. No university or college should proceed on the basis of introducing such additional fees....We cannot have a freebooting system in which top-up fees would help some at the expense of others!"

David Blunkett MP speaking in the House of Commons 1997.

Jack Straw:

"Saddam wouldn't understand the truth if he fell over it"

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Reasons to not vote labour -


ID cards



Any party that has the guts to introduce ID cards will get my vote. Only criminals and illegals have anything to fear.

A close second would be visible confirmation that a car/driver has valid insurance.

To be fair, ID cards is something I agree with. They wouldn't get my vote on most other matters though.

Originally posted by Andyman
Any party that has the guts to introduce ID cards will get my vote. Only criminals and illegals have anything to fear.

A close second would be visible confirmation that a car/driver has valid insurance.

I don't fear ID cards.

I fear they will be a phenomenal waste of money (biometricating the entire population for a start) - as well as being an over trusted identity document that when forged will allow a much greater access to the victims property and personal information.

Originally posted by t020
Gun crime has doubled since 1997.

And would any other party have bettered this do you think?

Originally posted by Andyman
Any party that has the guts to introduce ID cards will get my vote. Only criminals and illegals have anything to fear.

Of course - cos they will have CRIMINAL in big letters on their ID cards!!!

Hmmmm OK maybe not! Can't really see the point in ID cards - except of course dear mr B seems to want a police state and ID cards could be a nice first step to monitoring everyones location, movements and day to day life - queue here for you subdermal transponders...

we voted them in to represent us and our views, are doing that? NO!

Did the conservatives do a better job of running things last time they were in power?
No matter who's in power not everyone is going to be happy with how the party is ruling the country...

I don't think the Tories would have done a better job on the economy. Brown is one of the best Chancellors post war. And I don't really see what house prices, mentioned in the first post, have to do with him.

Iraq and the terrorism farce is enought reason not to vote Labour. But I can't think of any reasons to support anyone else...

Be a radical - vote Liberal Democrat!

Bet you never thought you would see the words radical and Liberal Democrat in the same sentance!

Give the new lot a chance.
At least they're not fouled by the mistakes of the past....

Originally posted by DaBouncer
Tony Blair.... there... that's one good reason!

Took the words right outta my mouth.

Originally posted by t020


General Election - taxes, taxes, taxes. 66 new taxes since 1997. Tax and spend a dangerous way to run the economy. Money being poured into the NHS and other public services yet yielding very little results, other than more and more public servants. House prices soaring out of control. Gun crime has doubled since 1997.



Can I challenge you to name these apparent 66 new taxes?

Also, haven't NHS waiting lists gone down under the labour government?

Vote CAMBERWICK GREEN

Look what they did for Trumpton.:rolleyes:

Railways
PFI's in health and education (robbing taxpayer)
Iraq (slaughter of innocents)
Dome (robbing lottery)
Londons Olympic bid (robbing lottery)
Wembley stadium (robbing lottery)
Imposing candidates (or trying to) in London Scotland and Wales
Daring not to raise income tax (but raising every other one)
Sucking up to Murdoch, Ecclestone and numerous other multi-millionaires many not even British citizens.
Control freekery
Spin
Allowing sale of school playing fields (after promising to stop it)
Supporting all aspects of US foreign policy and worst of all standing shoulder to shoulder with the corrupt, mad, bad George W.
Not introducing corporate manslaughter legislation
.....and the devious b***** behind all the above, BLAIR

The death of John Smith was a tragedy for Britain not just the Labour Party

Originally posted by Dick Dastardly
Can I challenge you to name these apparent 66 new taxes?

Also, haven't NHS waiting lists gone down under the labour government?

Even labour candidates accept it is true.

Coincidentally, Monday was tax freedom day, the day we start earning money for ourselves and stop paying to the government.
It gets later every year.

My tax bill has increased by £4000 a year since 1997 including Uni fees which used to be included in my income tax.

NHS waiting lists have gone down but only because the method of calculating them has been changed....Spin.

Originally posted by Andyman

NHS waiting lists have gone down but only because the method of calculating them has been changed....Spin.

Yes, just like changes to the way inflation is measured (conveniently excluding house prices) and changes to the definition of "unemployed" to fiddle the employment stats. New Labour are very good at spin, I have to admit.

Originally posted by Dick Dastardly
Can I challenge you to name these apparent 66 new taxes?

Also, haven't NHS waiting lists gone down under the labour government?

Still waiting for hard evidence of these supposedly 66 new taxes.

Remember that the rest of Europe uses CPI not RPI. It's just another bit of rationalisation. House prices have always skewed the figures - I have no problem with changing the model used.

Originally posted by t020
Yes, just like changes to the way inflation is measured (conveniently excluding house prices) and changes to the definition of "unemployed" to fiddle the employment stats. New Labour are very good at spin, I have to admit.

Don't, for one moment, think that this is the preserve of the Labour Party.

YTS?

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
Railways
PFI's in health and education (robbing taxpayer)
Iraq (slaughter of innocents)
Dome (robbing lottery)
Londons Olympic bid (robbing lottery)
Wembley stadium (robbing lottery)
Imposing candidates (or trying to) in London Scotland and Wales
Daring not to raise income tax (but raising every other one)
Sucking up to Murdoch, Ecclestone and numerous other multi-millionaires many not even British citizens.
Control freekery
Spin
Allowing sale of school playing fields (after promising to stop it)
Supporting all aspects of US foreign policy and worst of all standing shoulder to shoulder with the corrupt, mad, bad George W.
Not introducing corporate manslaughter legislation
.....and the devious b***** behind all the above, BLAIR

The death of John Smith was a tragedy for Britain not just the Labour Party

Hear, hear! i would like to add:

Supporting a bunch of tory policies that no self-respecting Labour MP should, such as the privatisation of public transport (not just railways), utilities (electricity, water, gas - worked *really* well that one) and attempting to do the same to the royal mail... Introducing fees for education, points-based quality controls for the NHS (*sooo* useful) and bloody ID cards... Grrr....

Vote Liberal - the only choice left...

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
PFI's in health and education (robbing taxpayer)

Why do you think that PFI's rob the tax-payer?

Originally posted by Tony
Why do you think that PFI's rob the tax-payer?

PFI means Tax payers money going to private businesses, no?

And private businesses want to make lots of money, yes?

So Private Businesses will offer a low enough standard of service to rake in lots of cash, while providing the 'community' with a shoddy piece of work at the end, no?

I am being cynical, yes?

Errr... private companies provide facilities through PFI's like schools and hospitals that the Government can't afford.

The choice is this...

PFI = get it now.
Tax spend = get it sometime or never.

Originally posted by Tony
The choice is this...

PFI = get it now.
Tax spend = get it sometime or never.

PFI = get it now, and pay for it forever!

Originally posted by Abdul
PFI means Tax payers money going to private businesses, no?

And private businesses want to make lots of money, yes?

So Private Businesses will offer a low enough standard of service to rake in lots of cash, while providing the 'community' with a shoddy piece of work at the end, no?

I am being cynical, yes?

Seems a fairly accurrate summay - you get all the disadvantages of private ownership with none of the advantages!!!

Originally posted by Tony
Errr... private companies provide facilities through PFI's like schools and hospitals that the Government can't afford.

The choice is this...

PFI = get it now.
Tax spend = get it sometime or never.

No! Quite wrong (sorry). I work closely with orgs who do the NHS ones, and PFI's are vastly overrated. They are designed to benefit the private organisation rather than a) the public or b) the government service... they charge extortionate interest rates, and whereas a mortgage would be on a 25-40 year plan, a PFI sheme is designed to reach maximum profit and full pay-back within 10 years.

Although the building/service is up and running more quickly, the net loss to the government (and hence the taxpayer) is so much higher as to make it a strategy for making the current government look great, and leaving a legacy of unpaid debts for the next party to take term. It's also annoying as the PFI companies often specify they're not responsible for maintenance, contracting out to sister companies who also charge lots...

Originally posted by Tony
Why do you think that PFI's rob the tax-payer?
Independent research reveals these deals cause the taxpayer to pay 2-3 times more for facilities which are often questionable in terms of quality.
Unfortuntely the Government/councils hide behind "commercial confidentiality" to hide this from the public who actually pay for these things. We should have the right to see an accurate cost comparison between public and PFI costing over a 25 year period, on every public project.
On the rare occasions private companies have been so incompetent they failed to make money out of an PFI scheme they've been been bailed out by the taxpayer...... they aren't even having to take on any risk.
The chickens will come home to roost in 10-15 years time when the charges will be so burdensome there will have to be a freeze on public projects.
Tony and Gordon will be long gone when the crap hits the fan. At present they can brag about new hospitals and schools being built( those that work reasonably well, anyway) Someone else will have to worry about the costs rolling in. There has been a scandalous waste of £billions already

Look, I'm not especially defending PFI's, but you must realise that the Government has not been able to sort itself out, so PFI's were developed as a short term solution (perhaps with long term consequenses I accept).

Anyway, there is nothing wrong with a bit of profit - it all goes back into the system ;)

The government seems to be able to find cash for such "necessities" as a war of questionable morality and legality - so why can't it find the cash to build hospitals and schools without resorting to such stupid ideas as PFIs????

Originally posted by Dick Dastardly
Still waiting for hard evidence of these supposedly 66 new taxes.

Ok then. The 66 new taxes and rises are outlined and listed in this document:

http://www.conservatives.com/pdf/Letdownbylabourontax.pdf

Feb 04 Stealth Tax 67 A 'Victims Fund' surcharge fine on everyone who passes through the courts. £5 for speeding and up to £30 for murder

Feb 04 Stealth Tax 68. Abolition of Legal Aid for the middle classes

Feb 04 Stealth Tax 69 A £40 per week charge to middle class parents for formerly free nursery places! (free to some)

Feb 04 Stealth Tax 70 A £200 per year charge to middle class parents for places on formerly free school buses.

Feb 04 Stealth Tax 71 A £250 per hour charge by the fire service for non-emergency special service calls (means tested)

March 04 Stealth Tax 72 Anyone with shares in PEP or ISA will lose their tax break on dividends! :mad:

Originally posted by t020
Ok then. The 66 new taxes and rises are outlined and listed in this document:

http://www.conservatives.com/pdf/Letdownbylabourontax.pdf

anyone else getting :

"this object is blocked?" when they try this link

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
anyone else getting :

"this object is blocked?" when they try this link

If they are then may I suggest going to:

http://www.conservatives.com/campaigns/campaign.cfm?obj_id=101736

and try downloading it from the site? If that still doesn't work, I'm more than happy to email the document to anyone. Remember its a .pdf file so be sure to have Adobe Acrobat Reader installed, the latest version preferably.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
anyone else getting :

"this object is blocked?" when they try this link

Nope, works fine for me.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
anyone else getting :

"this object is blocked?" when they try this link


Put your computer on your right ..... then everything will work fine.

Ok, switched to Internet Exploder and works ok. Pretty turgid stuff.

Originally posted by evildrneil
The government seems to be able to find cash for such "necessities" as a war of questionable morality and legality - so why can't it find the cash to build hospitals and schools without resorting to such stupid ideas as PFIs????
I guess that's why people probably won't be putting Labour back into Sheffield Town Hall on June 10th.

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
Railways
Uhh the railways were broken up and sold off in a disasterous manner by the Tories (who had been progressively underfunding the railways for years) just before they were booted out of office. They made it virtually impossible for Labour to renationalise the railways (cost, moaning from the CBI etc). Labour managed to renationalise the track maintenance and operation a year or two ago and things are improving again (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3763955.stm)

PFI's in health and education (robbing taxpayer)

PFI is a renaming of the Conservative's PPP scheme. Here's an article (http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2002/03/10/private-affluence-public-rip-off/) about why PFI/PPP projects cost more and deliver less than publicly funded ones.

Reasons not to vote Labour? "Iraq", "Tony Blair".

But not enough people were using the railways which is why they had to be privatised.

Look at privatisation of BT. What a great success. Could you imagine how expensive the internet/broadband would be if BT had a monopoly on the telephone market? Thanks to privatisation, competition has driven down prices both with telephone call charges and internet charges, and consumers are spoilt for choice.

So how many wards you going to win then, tory boys and girls?

In the local elections, in Sheffield, probably a few seats. I'd rather the Lib Dems were in control of our council than Labour though.

does matter who comes in or what tax they bring out the people of this country on the whole just lay down take the whole nine yards - usually up the a$$ from th gov't.

I hope nobody here is forgetting how bad things were when Conservatives were in power.

Originally posted by karl101
I hope nobody here is forgetting how bad things were when Conservatives were in power.

Especially when you consider one of the only survivors from the Thatcher tour of Great Britain (and the Falklands) is Michael Howard (the greasy, slimy lawyer-type)

I can't help feeling that the title Greasy slimey lawyer type is better fitting for Blair, afterall he has done more for lawyers than anybody I can remember.

Originally posted by karl101
I hope nobody here is forgetting how bad things were when Conservatives were in power.

Were they? Why? Didn't they gain power from Labour in 1979 when England was the laughing stock of Europe with huge inflation and a weak economy, and leave it in 1997 as the 4th strongest economy in the world, leaving the economic foundations for Blair & Co to claim economic competance (bear in mind they didn't dare touch Tory spending plans for the first 3 years in office)?

I'm with you t020 - Conservative through and through. I have never been a fan of the Labour party, and Tony Blair is so irritating and incompetent. No party will ever get it 100% right as people have such different needs and opinions, but Labour seem to be on a mission to recruit as many supporters as possible by exaggerating and fabrication of the truth! Next thing will be candidates offering a free Big Mac to all the 18 year olds on their way home after school!

So many people have an image in their minds that Conservatives are stuck up middle aged, middle class people - well hello, what is Tony Blair??!? Please do the sensible thing and do not be swayed by false promises or gimmicks!

Originally posted by Lickszz
I can't help feeling that the title Greasy slimey lawyer type is better fitting for Blair, afterall he has done more for lawyers than anybody I can remember.

both blair and howard are sophists of the highest order, able to persuasively argue a case for anything but seemingly without a shred of personal ideology at all.

Two devil's advocates - how productive.

More reasons not to vote labour?

you can't. you can vote new labour, but that is the tory party (of old). You can't fit a cigarette paper between them on anything but fine policy detail as they fight for the coveted middle ground of politics...

Originally posted by t020
Ok then. The 66 new taxes and rises are outlined and listed in this document:

http://www.conservatives.com/pdf/Letdownbylabourontax.pdf

Erm?! And what the conservatives suggest is better?! Aren't they planning to cut taxes etc? If so, how do they proposse to fund public services? Answer, through privatisation!!!!!!

yes but privatisation gives you choice.
Look at the phone companies. Ok the railways need sorting out. What about the utilities. And it helps get rid of the unions, which although I am not an expert, I think they contributed a major part in screwing up our country.
Choice gives the consumer more power.
Things just need to be improved, the foundations are in place.
I think:(

Sounds a bit like a British equivalent of this:


Who not to vote for (http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4022&n=1)

Scrap tution fees for people who want to educate themselves, give cash incentives for thoes who don't.

Well done Labour create more disincentives to work hard and try.

10,000 civillians dead in Iraq. Well done Tony and F Off.

They lost £758M because people aren't using the trains and people aren't because they've heard the media chiming on about how crap the trains are.

And of course your financial manager does an important job, because at the end of the day all people care about is money. OK, saving peoples lives is a very noble thing to do. But if you could have the option of having a substantial amount of extra cash a month or letting a couple of people you don't know recieve poorer medical treatment, then I bet which one the majority of people would choose (even if they wouldn't like to admit it).

Mod: A new thread has been split off this one to discuss the merits of our economic systems entitled...
Capitalism -v- Communism and all the other social...isms (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12247)

Here's another reason. Friend of Tony's?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1224714,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,3604,1234422,00.html

News: Postal ballot dirty tricks exposed

SENIOR Labour officials were accused last night of orchestrating a postal ballot “dirty tricks” campaign amid rising concern over electoral fraud and malpractice.

An investigation by The Times has discovered that Labour’s General Secretary is urging activists to set up bogus ballot boxes today outside traditional polling stations in all-postal voting areas.

Source (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1140590,00.html)

This stinks!

The Labour “postal vote handbook” obtained by The Times suggests that campaigners should stand with red rosettes outside church halls and traditional sites for polling stations with ballot boxes to court voters who might have missed the post.

“You could even have a ballot box for people to put their votes in which you can then deliver to the returning officer before close of poll,” the booklet says. “If your volunteers are wearing a red rosette it is unlikely that supporters of other parties will give you their votes.”

The document also gives a detailed timetable of when and where party campaigners should be every day during the election period. “On each day you should concentrate your volunteers in one or two places within your target wards so that they can visit Labour voters, encourage them to vote, and if asked to, collect their completed ballot papers to forward to the returning officers.”

The Labour Party initially claimed last night that the document was a draft report which had never been circulated and was updated in January or February to remove mention of ballot boxes.

A spokesman later admitted that the “initial” report had been updated in April. He conceded that the advice had probably gone out to regional offices and party campaigners who “may still be using the out of date guidance”.

But the spokesman insisted there was “nothing inappropriate or illegal or wrong” about using false ballot boxes. “This is about making sure that people with a postal vote have it counted. This is not about handling ballot papers. We have always taken our responsibility in this area very seriously.”