Title should be forced to learn English.

Brown's language call to migrants

Learning the language will help people find work, says Mr Brown
Immigrants coming to Britain must learn English, Gordon Brown has insisted.
He argued that people entering the UK should "play by the rules" and that means learning the language in order to get work, the chancellor says.

He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that those who refused to learn English should be made to do so.

Immigrants should also be given an understanding of British history so they could learn values of freedom, liberty and tolerance, he said.

Preachers

"I think people who come into this country, who are part of our community, should play by the rules," he told Today.

"I think learning English is part of that. I think that understanding British history is part of that. That's why I want to see changes in the curriculum.

"I think being more explicit as a country about what we value about being British is a very essential element of how we are part of the modern world."

He said people could be part of a global economy and benefit from it, but also have a "huge pride and patriotism" in their own country.

"I would insist on large numbers of people who have refused to learn our language that they must do so," said Mr Brown.

Higher education

"If someone is unemployed who doesn't speak English, they should have to learn English to make themselves employable.

"If you take preachers coming into this country, they should be speaking the English language and not refusing to speak the English language."

Mr Brown spoke out ahead of the launch of a pamphlet on the future of Europe's universities, which warned that wide-ranging reform of governance and financing was needed to ensure the continent does not lag behind the US and growing economies like China and India.

Mr Brown argues that Britain must drive up its spending on higher education if it is to maintain its competitive edge in the modern globalised economy.

He also indicated a willingness to look again at the £3,000 cap on annual tuition fees for students and to consider tax breaks to make endowments to universities more attractive.

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So where are the measures to deal with it? think Labour have forgotten they've been in power for 9 years so rhetoric means nowt.

It comes on the day it's been disclosed that the Home Office has been dispersing immigrants by which language they spoke which flies in the face of what Brown now says. Promoting segregation and certainly not encouraging integration.

Locally the dispersal based on language for towns/cities are:

Sheffield: Somali, Arabic, Dutch, Farsi, Bengali, Mandarin, Hakka, Cantonese, French, Urdu, Pushtu, Punjabi, Swahali, Portuguese, Spanish, Albanian, Kurdish, English

Doncaster: Albanian, Urdu, Punjabi, Farsi, Turkish, Cantonese, Mandarin, English

Rotherham: Punjabi, Urdu, Arabic, Albanian, Farsi, Portuguese, French, English

Barnsley: Albanian, Russian, Romanian, Czech, Farsi, Macedonian, Italian, Serbo-Croat, Kurindi, Kinyarwanda, Shona, Ndebele, Spanish, Azeri, English

I#m sorry but yes I do thnk they should flippin' well learn English.

I am as flexible as they come in terms of where people should be allowed to live (wherever they like as long as they contribute to the system) but they ought to learn the language of the country they are in.

I went to France, I learned French. I honeymooned in Peru, I picked up some Spanish expressions, I skied in Austria... err ... I couldn't understand their witchdoctor German but at least I tried to, so had to resort to Italian! even in thailand I worked out how to say please, thank you, hello and goodbye. It's a matter of respect.

:rant:

I#m sorry but yes I do thnk they should flippin' well learn English.

I am as flexible as they come in terms of where people should be allowed to live (wherever they like as long as they contribute to the system) but they ought to learn the language of the country they are in.

I went to France, I learned French. I honeymooned in Peru, I picked up some Spanish expressions, I skied in Austria... err ... I couldn't understand their witchdoctor German but at least I tried to, so had to resort to Italian! even in thailand I worked out how to say please, thank you, hello and goodbye. It's a matter of respect.

:rant:

Hear hear. Why is insisting on immigrants learning English somehow viewed as 'oppressing' them? I wouldn't dream of going to another country and ensconcing myself in an English-speaking ghetto.

I suppose the day had to come when I'd agree with Gordon Brown over something.

I totally agree if they cannot be bothered to learn our language then off back home double quick

Another language truly is a gift. They are presented with a wonderful opportunity to expand their experience of another totally different culture.

*Awaits wallet-related jokes.

When non-English speakers move to Oz, they are required to speak English as a requirement of their citizenship ceremony. Applause all round!

i agree 100%

If we want the many immigrants and cultures that we have in the UK to integrate (and unless they integrate we will never have harmony), they must share our language.

It is very worrying that councils and government agencies are being funded to provide welfare material in dozens of different languages, and teach in different languages, when the funding should be used to provide English lessons to the legitimate immigrants.

And Chuck The Rest Of The Scroungers Out

The more I think about this...

There are even leaflets produced by entities such as the health services to enable these people to dodge that fact they they should be learning our language.

Even the name and description of my old school is now in arabic script as well as English :tuts: As if they didn't know what a school was!

And Chuck The Rest Of The Scroungers Out
Certainly any illegal immigrants should be deported without appeal.

There is no such thing as a true asylum seeker coming to this country, unless all of a sudden an oppressive regime rises up in France. The parasites who flock to Britain to suck up our benefits do so having crossed many borders, intent on the welfare state of milk and honey that our buffoons in the Commons have provided.

A genuine asylum seeker will bend and kiss the ground of the first safe country he gets to – not travel across another half dozen safe countries to reach Britain.

This is a thread about languages.

I agree with your last but one post BF.

The more I think about this...

There are even leaflets produced by entities such as the health services to enable these people to dodge that fact they they should be learning our language.

Even the name and description of my old school is now in arabic script as well as English :tuts: As if they didn't know what a school was!

I don't think any other European country does this. Pathetic hand-wringing political correctness. Bloody well learn English!

You don't get 'em France, or at least you didn't when I was there. Can't speak for anywhere else though.

Another language truly is a gift. They are presented with a wonderful opportunity to expand their experience of another totally different culture.

*Awaits wallet-related jokes.

When non-English speakers move to Oz, they are required to speak English as a requirement of their citizenship ceremony. Applause all round!


I agree totally, this was an opinion I formed while living in the Costa Blanca and seeing hordes of British ex-pats - some of them there for more than a decade - with not even the most basic grasp of Spanish, and no intention of trying to learn.

Unfortunately, these people are the rule, not the exception among the ex-pats there. So I feel that - as a nation - we suffer double standards on this one.

What it boils down to is that the ex pats in Spain have money, and are of the opinion that if the locals want to sell them stuff, the onus is on them to communicate, so no great interest in the local culture there either.

Certainly any illegal immigrants should be deported without appeal.

There is no such thing as a true asylum seeker coming to this country, unless all of a sudden an oppressive regime rises up in France. The parasites who flock to Britain to suck up our benefits do so having crossed many borders, intent on the welfare state of milk and honey that our buffoons in the Commons have provided.

A genuine asylum seeker will bend and kiss the ground of the first safe country he gets to – not travel across another half dozen safe countries to reach Britain.
So basically we shouldn't take our share of the worlds refugees? We are a developed country, with the ability to provide support to people who have had to leave their homes.

There are many who already have family over here, and our welfare system isn't exactly fantastic for asylum seekers.

edit: And yes, of course they should be speaking English - it goes without saying.

Immigrants who cannot speak at least passable English within 1 year of being here should be on the next plane out. Those who cannot read passable English within 2 years here should also be on the plane out the following year.

It's absurd that anyone should arrive in a foreign country and be unable to reasonably speak the language, and read it too, within a reasonable time of arrival.

It insults the indigenous people of the Country they have chosen to live within.

So basically we shouldn't take our share of the worlds refugees? We are a developed country, with the ability to provide support to people who have had to leave their homes.

There are many who already have family over here, and our welfare system isn't exactly fantastic for asylum seekers.

edit: And yes, of course they should be speaking English - it goes without saying.
No, I do not think we should take a share of the world's refugees. But then, I do not think that any country should be obliged to take on refugees.

We should let natural selection take its course, rather than interfering.

I agree totally, this was an opinion I formed while living in the Costa Blanca and seeing hordes of British ex-pats - some of them there for more than a decade - with not even the most basic grasp of Spanish, and no intention of trying to learn.

Unfortunately, these people are the rule, not the exception among the ex-pats there. So I feel that - as a nation - we suffer double standards on this one.

What it boils down to is that the ex pats in Spain have money, and are of the opinion that if the locals want to sell them stuff, the onus is on them to communicate, so no great interest in the local culture there either.

I can see how this could happen, and it all boils down to ignorance and arrogance and a lack of interest in expanding the mind; I have seen it happen in France but won't mention the nationality as I'll get accused of whatever it's called!

I agree totally, this was an opinion I formed while living in the Costa Blanca and seeing hordes of British ex-pats - some of them there for more than a decade - with not even the most basic grasp of Spanish, and no intention of trying to learn.

Unfortunately, these people are the rule, not the exception among the ex-pats there. So I feel that - as a nation - we suffer double standards on this one.

What it boils down to is that the ex pats in Spain have money, and are of the opinion that if the locals want to sell them stuff, the onus is on them to communicate, so no great interest in the local culture there either.

Spain actively encourages migration of British people through tax breaks and other ways.

Totally agree that it's wrong for Brits to move to Spain and show such ignorance to the locals but they are bringing a lot to the Spanish economy - must be £tens of billions a year - which is also taken out the British economy.

People who don't learn English who replace the ex-pats can't possibly contribute anything. It would cost a great deal less to the public sector if immigrants had the courtesy to learn the language.

If they don't then it should be forced by stealth, as Gordon Brown implies but like everything Labour does in power- there's very little to suggest how they plan to do it.

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable idea. What happened to the Citizenship (test?) thing that the Government was talking about?

One of my pet hates is multi-lingual signs. The one on the front of the Hallamshire has maybe half a dozen different ones, though I don't recall French, Spanish or German being on there. I suspect that you don't need to learn the word Hospital more than once if you're ill. :suspect:

We can get rid of the Welsh road markings too. :thumbsup:

Car sticker seen on yankee web site- This is the USA, we speak English here,
OR WE GO HOME !!!!!!
'Nuff said.

No, I do not think we should take a share of the world's refugees. But then, I do not think that any country should be obliged to take on refugees.

We should let natural selection take its course, rather than interfering.

Haha, good one! It's easy to see that YOUR brain is well developed in the compassion-zone! :)

Should we also perhaps let road traffic accident victims lie there? Heart attack sufferers? In fact, we could do away with the NHS altogether and let nature selects who lives or dies! Spend the money we save on, erm, education or fine wines, perhaps!
:thumbsup:

The one on the front of the Hallamshire has maybe half a dozen different ones

Including Ars Longa Vita Brevis That's it! Bring back Latin as the lingua franca and then we'd all be happy. :thumbsup:

Originally posted by Tony
I suspect that you don't need to learn the word Hospital more than once if you're ill.

ROFLMAO! :clap:

If immigration wasn't the way it is I'd be out of a job :hihi:

I can only say that if I chose to live in another country, even Wales I would expect to be able to communicate in the language of that nation.

I may not be expert in pronouncing the words correctly (especially in Welsh) without embarrassment but I would make myself understood with an understanding local community prepared to correct me as and when. :)

I was at the hospital today and there was a couple who couldn't understand a word the doctor was saying thus wasting more of his time waiting for someone to translate.It would be advisable for them to learn the language if only so they could communicate with medical staff.

I can only say that if I chose to live in another country, even Wales I would expect to be able to communicate in the language of that nation.

I may not be expert in pronouncing the words correctly (especially in Welsh) without embarrassment but I would make myself understood with an understanding local community prepared to correct me as and when. :)

Quite so. Communication is all; don't be afraid to make mistakes. I've had positive reactions and help everywhere I've attempted to speak another language.

I was at the hospital today and there was a couple who couldn't understand a word the doctor was saying thus wasting more of his time waiting for someone to translate.It would be advisable for them to learn the language if only so they could communicate with medical staff.

How about 'it would be good if the doctors could learn the language properly so they can communicate with the patients'?

On pretty much every occasion when I've had occasion to visit the emergency out-of-hours doctor - the one on the way to Meadowhall Retail Park - we've ended up with a doctor whom I struggled to understand. And, I figured that if I couldn't understand what he was saying, could he understand what I was describing? Not good.

would it be fair on medical staff to have to learn at least 6 new languages (probably in their spare time as the NHS is stretched enough) just to communicate with people ? If people want to come to this country they should at least attempt to fit in with society.

I have a story regarding this... it happened ages ago in British Embassy in Manila Philippines

Maria is a filipino who is a resident in UK and she invited her dad to visit UK, so her dad went to the British Embassy for his interview to acquire the Visa. Her dad (lets call him Jose) cannot speak a single english so he needs an interpreter. here's some brief conversation inside the interview room:

interviewer: i'm sorry but i cannot grant u a visa because you can't even speak nor understand a single english.

the interpreter translated it in tagalog for Jose to understand.

Jose: pakitanong nga sa kanya kung marunong syang magtagalog?

interpreter: he is asking if you can speak tagalog?

interviewer: no

the interpreter translated it in tagalog for Jose to understand.

Jose: eh anong ginagawa nya rito sa pilipinas eh hindi pala sya marunong magtagalog bakit sya nagka visa?

interpreter: he said, what are you doing here in philippines if u cant even speak nor understand our language? how come you have your Visa?

Jose managed to get his Visa on that day. :hihi:

Including Ars Longa Vita Brevis That's it! Bring back Latin as the lingua franca and then we'd all be happy. :thumbsup:

Suits me. Mind you I would have to brush up a bit. Let's see... Caecillius et Matella est in atrio sedet... :suspect:

Anyone who goes to a different country, even for a short holiday, should at least make the effort to learn the local language. If someone is intending to live in a different country to their own, they should learn the local language to a decent level. This applies to anyone, from any country, going to any other country. And yes I will be making the effort on my own hols in spain soon.

The doctor 'situation' is slightly skewed. Basically, any fully qualified doctor coming here from the EU does not have to take any additional exmas or tests to gauge their English fluency. Any coming from outside the EU (inc the USA) do have to take tests. This included a friend of mine of Asian descent, born and raised in England, with exceptionally good English who then qualified as a doctor in the USA and had to take the tests on his return....

How about the people who speak a different language seek out a doctor, etc with whom they can communicate?

I was at the hospital today and there was a couple who couldn't understand a word the doctor was saying thus wasting more of his time waiting for someone to translate.It would be advisable for them to learn the language if only so they could communicate with medical staff.

Just to clarify it was the couple that didnt speak english not the doctor

How about the people who speak a different language seek out a doctor, etc with whom they can communicate?

You mean I should have gone looking for a doctor who spoke English? ;)

You mean I should have gone looking for a doctor who spoke English? ;)

Rare as hens teeth these days :hihi:

hahahahahaha SHsheff.... nice one!

There are many many children now who have been born and raised in this country but who on starting school cannot speak a word of english. I think this is appalling, and that the parents in these cases have been negligent. They have had five years minimum to learn the language and practice it with their child. It also doesn't say much for their attempts to integrate with the community.

Yet every time I have seen this fact reported, it is passed over as just one of those things, and another reason we must bend over backwards to accommodate to the needs of ethnic minorities. I'm sorry, but the effort needs to be made in the other direction also. :rant:

I don't get the chance to use ranty smiley very often. It must be a big issue.

P.S. I have learnt serbo-croat just to make an effort on two week holidays. That's no picnic, believe me. If people live in a country they should be able to get the hang of the basics in a short time. Unless they stay exclusively ensconced in their 'home' community.

I have learnt serbo-croat just to make an effort on two week holidays. That's no picnic, believe me.

I go on holiday, usually 6 times a year, to the same foreign country, and have been doing so for the past 30 years - and I've still not learned the language.

I've worked out what the road signs mean - as I don't wish to be responsible for an accident whilst driving. I get by, and have managed to consult a doctor, and was even admitted to hospital on one occasion. But, then I take the attitude that when I go on holiday the local people should make the effort to learn my native tongue, which is of course English. But, just like Serbo-Croat, I suspect it's just as difficult to learn Welsh. :hihi:

Quite so. Communication is all; don't be afraid to make mistakes. I've had positive reactions and help everywhere I've attempted to speak another language.
Surely anyone who can't and don't know how to speak the lingo would be even more embarrassed to try ? Even if the rest of the country are so negative about it, they are even more doubly unwilling to step up and out and talk about things, surely ? Esp when the lynch mob is ready. How to integrate in a hostile environment, and to follow a particular 'take' on things ?

A lot of signs are in different languages for a reason... but if this is seen as being played a race card, or to disadvantage others for a reason. Then I'm not sure what to say.

There are many many children now who have been born and raised in this country but who on starting school cannot speak a word of english. I think this is appalling, and that the parents in these cases have been negligent. They have had five years minimum to learn the language and practice it with their child. It also doesn't say much for their attempts to integrate with the community.

Yet every time I have seen this fact reported, it is passed over as just one of those things, and another reason we must bend over backwards to accommodate to the needs of ethnic minorities. I'm sorry, but the effort needs to be made in the other direction also. :rant:

.

Good post again. It is true that they should speak English but it is wrong to think that someone will speak English from day one. They should be made to learn and like already mentined tested after one year. If no progreass has been made then off they go. As for children, if the child starts school with little or poor English and the child was born here then he/she should not be allowed in to school.

Even in my place of employment ( i work with the public) we are encouraged to produce literature in many different languages. It's only a matter of time until we open Boxing Day as each year it gets mentioned that many do not celebrate Christmas.

If I was committed to living in a different country I'd try to learn the language - there are classes available specifically for immigrants in the UK so no excuse for not trying. Children born here of course should speak English when they start school, and English should be the main language taught in all schools. Older children should have intensive English classes til they reach an acceptable standard.

As for written English, there are still plenty home grown Brits who can't write very well, in some cases not at all. The level of literacy in general appears on the decline, some written stuff I've seen recently has been appalling. It will be the same for immigrants, some will want to learn and make use of academic opportunities, and some will be either unwilling or unable to learn beyond a certain standard.

I understand that it takes an around 6 months of simple immersion to become fluent in the language of the country that you reside in - providing you are willing of course.

Can anyone confirm that?

I would imagine it depends on a number of things including how old you are, how much you are immersed and how generally bright you are.

Remember my old french teacher telling us to go to france because 'you must be plongee dans la langue!!' (not sure on the spelling there!) :hihi:

Not sure how you could 'force' someone to learn a language though - must admit I had a chuckle when I read the title of the thread, imagining guns to the heads in the classroom!

I do think immigrants should learn English and so should English expats learn the language of their country of choice. In the case of hospitals I would disagree - there should be info available in a wide range of languages. I dont think it would deter people if there wasn't, and it causes more problems and generates extra cost if people don't understand what is happening to them or their childen or aren't able to explain their symptoms properly.

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable idea. What happened to the Citizenship (test?) thing that the Government was talking about?

:

It has been in operation since last November. To apply for UK nationality, applicants have to be able to read and understand well enough three chapters of a book called 'Living in the UK'. Knowledge of this is then tested online at designated test centres and, if the test is passed, applicants append a certificate to their application. If they fail, they cannot apply for naturalisation and have to take the test again. Those without sufficient command of English to read the book and take the test are required to attend language classes. Therefore, passing the test demonstrates a good command of English and some knowledge of life in the UK. It is not a walk in the park - some of the questions ask about the number of European states, the order of Saint's days, the legislative process and so on. As a first stab, this is not a bad attempt. It is clearly in everyone's interests that immigrants can speak English and have at least a basic grasp of life in the UK.
However, this all breaks down when government policy (underpinned as it is by a doctrine of appeasement towards particular groups – Muslims in particular) encourages the fracturing of society along faith (we are all, supposedly, members of ‘faith’ communities now) and ethnic lines. As far as I can see, if we want to avoid this, the French model is the way to go. That is, you are French first and foremost and ethnic or religious identities come below this in importance and relevance.

I was at the hospital today and there was a couple who couldn't understand a word the doctor was saying thus wasting more of his time waiting for someone to translate.It would be advisable for them to learn the language if only so they could communicate with medical staff.

This is one of the big hidden costs of running the NHS - the additional costs arising from the employment of translators for people who are very capable of demanding their rights and a place in hospital but are strangely unable to speak English once treatment begins.

Hey stop upsetting our immigrants with racist talk of them having to learn english,shame on you.;)

Hey stop upsetting our immigrants with racist talk of them having to learn english,shame on you.;)

If they can't read enough English to understand this thread, they won't be upset because they won't know what it's about; if they can understand it, they won't be upset because they will have fullfilled the wishes of most people posting to it. :P

immigrants to any country should make an effort to learn the predominant native tongue.

and many do...

if i went off to live in another country i would:)

the French model is the way to go. That is, you are French first and foremost and ethnic or religious identities come below this in importance and relevance.

A much better system, - butthe French have the luxury of living in a republic, unencumbered by a constitutional monarchy and an established church. Forcing applicants for citizenship to learn the chuch calender (saint's days) is patently ridiculous !

Couldn't agree more....disestablishment and a 'faith blind' state is the only way forward.

Surely anyone who can't and don't know how to speak the lingo would be even more embarrassed to try ? Even if the rest of the country are so negative about it, they are even more doubly unwilling to step up and out and talk about things, surely ? Esp when the lynch mob is ready. How to integrate in a hostile environment, and to follow a particular 'take' on things ?

A lot of signs are in different languages for a reason... but if this is seen as being played a race card, or to disadvantage others for a reason. Then I'm not sure what to say.

Sorry, but I've read your post three times, and still have no idea what point you're trying to make.:confused:

Most Asians in 'service' industries speak English, the Iraqis at the car wash that I use couldn't speak a word of it two years ago but now are fluent with broad Sheffield accents.

Is it perhaps the old and Asian women who cause Mr Brown problems? Surely this will take care of itself during the passage of time, they will learn some English through their children and grandchildren.

When I use the Chinese grocers on London Road I more often than not end up with an old Chinese guy who can't speak a word of English serving me. He ends up calling his grandson to interpret, the lad has been trying to teach his grandad English for years but to no avail, should his grandad be deported for this?

I would imagine it depends on a number of things including how old you are, how much you are immersed and how generally bright you are.

I think it's much less to do with how bright you are, and much more about your attitude. I remember seeing Paul Gascoigne speaking passable Italian in an interview a few years back. He's hardly Mastermind material.

Witness also the vast number of ordinary working class people working as waiters, hotel receptionists and the like, who speak several languages. They do so because their job demands it!

I have a friend from Luxembourg who speaks (fluently) Letzeburgish, French, German, English and Italian. All Luxembourgers grow up speaking three languages, and they genuinely are amazed that we monoglot types are in such awe.

Shouldn't it be - Immigrants should be forced to learn English IF they cant speak it already?

Z

Sorry, but I've read your post three times, and still have no idea what point you're trying to make.:confused:
Quite so. Communication is all; don't be afraid to make mistakes. I've had positive reactions and help everywhere I've attempted to speak another language.
You gave the impression that if an immigrant *tries* to attempt to speak the lingo in the UK, then he/she would be more welcomed. Neither should they be embarrassed to make mistakes. This is what I understood it as. Cos you related to your own experiences of speaking a foreign lang when you're abroad.

Sorry, the point I'm trying to make in my post was that being an 'immigrant' in the UK is not the same as being on holiday as a foreigner abroad.

-------------
The signs that are available everywhere are for the first generation of migrants who have worked in the UK, and are still here. They may not even have the education to go for better jobs. They were most likely to be blue-collar workers. If immigration rules for the next few years become such that English is supposed to be a standard, then it means that more migrants would fill white-collar jobs. The dynamic of society would therefore be shifted in the other direction.

Most Asians in 'service' industries speak English, the Iraqis at the car wash that I use couldn't speak a word of it two years ago but now are fluent with broad Sheffield accents.

Is it perhaps the old and Asian women who cause Mr Brown problems? Surely this will take care of itself during the passage of time, they will learn some English through their children and grandchildren.

When I use the Chinese grocers on London Road I more often than not end up with an old Chinese guy who can't speak a word of English serving me. He ends up calling his grandson to interpret, the lad has been trying to teach his grandad English for years but to no avail, should his grandad be deported for this?

Excellent observation Crooksey :thumbsup:
and no his Grandad shouldn't be deported.

My Mother whilst bringing up 4 boys took time out to learn English (I always joke how she must have used up a forest worth of Pencils), yet she still has no confidence in her English.

I dont think people aren't interested in learning the English language, however, some perhaps because of their age just find it difficult.

Z

Hey stop upsetting our immigrants with racist talk of them having to learn english,shame on you.;)

True, they'd have to compete with most of your leadership for desk spaces :hihi:

Mind you the immigrants do take more pride in their dress sense. :thumbsup:

Z

When I use the Chinese grocers on London Road I more often than not end up with an old Chinese guy who can't speak a word of English serving me. He ends up calling his grandson to interpret, the lad has been trying to teach his grandad English for years but to no avail, should his grandad be deported for this?
It may surprise others to know that the guy probably cannot even write in chinese, never mind speak in English.

Shouldn't it be - Immigrants should be forced to learn English IF they cant speak it already?

Z

I don't like the word 'forced' Zafar, there are thousands of British people living in other parts of the world who have not mastered the language of the country they now live in. If they obey the laws of the country, bring their spending power to it and in many cases pay local and national taxes what the hell?

They would get on far better if they could converse with the locals but forcing them would be out of order.

I don't like the word 'forced' Zafar, there are thousands of British people living in other parts of the world who have not mastered the language of the country they now live in. If they obey the laws of the country, bring their spending power to it and in many cases pay local and national taxes what the hell?

They would get on far better if they could converse with the locals but forcing them would be out of order.


Thats what I was kind of alluding, hence the change from 'speak' to 'learn'.
I think whenever you force someone to do something it just smacks of Big Brother and such like.

How about people should be encouraged and helped in learning to speak English ?

Z

I've been learning English for nearly 40 years.

Stupid blody language. Keeps changing:D.

there are thousands of British people living in other parts of the world.

There're also thousands in the UK who haven't a clue when it comes to English (and I don't mean immigrants, either;)).

Thats what I was kind of alluding, hence the change from 'speak' to 'learn'.
I think whenever you force someone to do something it just smacks of Big Brother and such like.

How about people should be encouraged and helped in learning to speak English ?Z

Lets start with the chavs, I swear that I can understand the broken English spoken by immigrants better than what comes out of their mouths.

Or I suppose we could learn to speak and understand chavese, there are so many of them we might have to. :hihi:

You gave the impression that if an immigrant *tries* to attempt to speak the lingo in the UK, then he/she would be more welcomed. Neither should they be embarrassed to make mistakes. This is what I understood it as. Cos you related to your own experiences of speaking a foreign lang when you're abroad.

Sorry, the point I'm trying to make in my post was that being an 'immigrant' in the UK is not the same as being on holiday as a foreigner abroad.

Thanks Bago, I see what you mean now. Yes, I do think the principle I mentioned holds true in any context, and I don't see any essential difference between being a foreigner abroad or an immigrant here.

It's surely desirable on many levels to at least attempt to communicate in the language of the country you happen to be in (for whatever reason). I'd always help someone struggling to ask me something in English, and I don't know anyone who wouldn't.

One thing that angers me is British and American people (but not all, obviously) just expecting to speak English wherever they go. They get short shrift (and rightly so) in France, and to a lesser degree Germany, but appear to be tolerated in Spain. If someone approached me in Sheffield and spoke to me in Spanish I'd think it both odd and discourteous, although I'd understand them. Why should it be any different for English speaking people abroad?

Hey stop upsetting our immigrants with racist talk of them having to learn english,shame on you.;)

What's racist about it? :huh: Care to elaborate royjames?

I agree that immigrants should be able to speak passable English, as long as this isn't a step towards stigmatising those who don't speak English in public. There's a big difference between someone who can't speak English at all, and someone who chooses not to when talking with someone of their own mother tongue. I've always taken the view that if two people I don't know are speaking in a different language next to me (i.e. on public transport), it's a private conversation so it's therefore irrelevant that I can't understand them.

I can sympathise with non-Europeans though. I did German and French at GCSE and got an A and a B. I then went to work in Turin two years ago and found Italian quite easy. These languages have a common root with English, so aren't particularly difficult.

I'm currently learning Chinese though and this is much harder. The four tones mean that pronunciation is far more important, and there are no similar words like in Italian or French:

"Wo hui Zhongwen yidian. Wo bu xihuan Zhongwen!"

:)

Most immigrants in the US eventually have to drive, a car is a MUST over here, they cannot read road signs, don't bother with signals, when an accident accurs they take off in a flash as they have no insurance of any kind, they don't care if the other people are hurt, dead or whatever, as long as they don't get caught....so yes they should have to know a certain amount of English, more so in the UK as it seems to be getting just like one big Boarding House now. Oh! and the immigrants don't seem to have much trouble at the ATM machines.

It's surely desirable on many levels to at least attempt to communicate in the language of the country you happen to be in (for whatever reason). I'd always help someone struggling to ask me something in English, and I don't know anyone who wouldn't.

One thing that angers me is British and American people (but not all, obviously) just expecting to speak English wherever they go. They get short shrift (and rightly so) in France, and to a lesser degree Germany, but appear to be tolerated in Spain. If someone approached me in Sheffield and spoke to me in Spanish I'd think it both odd and discourteous, although I'd understand them. Why should it be any different for English speaking people abroad?
Well, then look at HK. Why are the signs all in English as well as Chinese ? Why was QE II respected as the ruler of the country for years before 1997 ? Why did the ex-pat lived in a very wealthy area of HK, on the island part (with fantastic views, and great mansions), and not in the New Territorial part (village and hills) ? Why are there Christian-based schools, and why are there International schools for the wealthy ex-pats and their kids ?

Remind me again, why there are British ex-pat communities based abroad, and enjoy life with part British culture and part local ones ? Why do British ex-pats still call themselves British foremost when they have chosen to move away from Britain ? Hm... I don't get that either. Why do they not give up their passport, and assimilate into the chosen country's lifestyles ?

In theory, yes, I do agree with a lot of things u said about trying to learn, and accept a new culture, and everything else. In reality, it is still down to the people to learn, and try. Maybe they've attempted to try, but you just don't know.

As to whether there should now be a 'test' introduced to control immigration. I don't know. Would we become like America ? UK being the land of the 'not so free', and each incomer have to accept to assimilate into the existing cultures ? I find it too far-fetched an idea that one must be expected to be 'naturalised' to become a citizen. What is supposed to be 'culture' in the UK ? I mean, would u be able to pass the culture test ? Or even know what all of the contents of the test means ? What is the point of learning something, and then when u enter the real world. It does not reflect what u have learnt ?

A lot of things are learnt by living here in the UK. Not shoved in your face, and told to accept it. Play by what rules ? Sometimes I hate political mumbojumbos with a passion.

Title should be forced to learn English.

Brown's language call to migrants

Learning the language will help people find work, says Mr Brown
Immigrants coming to Britain must learn English, Gordon Brown has insisted.
He argued that people entering the UK should "play by the rules" and that means learning the language in order to get work, the chancellor says.

He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that those who refused to learn English should be made to do so.

Immigrants should also be given an understanding of British history so they could learn values of freedom, liberty and tolerance, he said.

Preachers

"I think people who come into this country, who are part of our community, should play by the rules," he told Today.

"I think learning English is part of that. I think that understanding British history is part of that. That's why I want to see changes in the curriculum.

"I think being more explicit as a country about what we value about being British is a very essential element of how we are part of the modern world."

He said people could be part of a global economy and benefit from it, but also have a "huge pride and patriotism" in their own country.

"I would insist on large numbers of people who have refused to learn our language that they must do so," said Mr Brown.

Higher education

"If someone is unemployed who doesn't speak English, they should have to learn English to make themselves employable.

"If you take preachers coming into this country, they should be speaking the English language and not refusing to speak the English language."

Mr Brown spoke out ahead of the launch of a pamphlet on the future of Europe's universities, which warned that wide-ranging reform of governance and financing was needed to ensure the continent does not lag behind the US and growing economies like China and India.

Mr Brown argues that Britain must drive up its spending on higher education if it is to maintain its competitive edge in the modern globalised economy.

He also indicated a willingness to look again at the £3,000 cap on annual tuition fees for students and to consider tax breaks to make endowments to universities more attractive.

----

So where are the measures to deal with it? think Labour have forgotten they've been in power for 9 years so rhetoric means nowt.

It comes on the day it's been disclosed that the Home Office has been dispersing immigrants by which language they spoke which flies in the face of what Brown now says. Promoting segregation and certainly not encouraging integration.

Locally the dispersal based on language for towns/cities are:

Sheffield: Somali, Arabic, Dutch, Farsi, Bengali, Mandarin, Hakka, Cantonese, French, Urdu, Pushtu, Punjabi, Swahali, Portuguese, Spanish, Albanian, Kurdish, English

Doncaster: Albanian, Urdu, Punjabi, Farsi, Turkish, Cantonese, Mandarin, English

Rotherham: Punjabi, Urdu, Arabic, Albanian, Farsi, Portuguese, French, English

Barnsley: Albanian, Russian, Romanian, Czech, Farsi, Macedonian, Italian, Serbo-Croat, Kurindi, Kinyarwanda, Shona, Ndebele, Spanish, Azeri, Englishwas it a miss print,i thought it may have been nick griffin talking.

but then again,if it had been him it would have had a different headline,..

FASCIST DEMANDS HOMELESS ASYLUM AND REFUGEES SPEAK ENGLISH

well,its about time labour did something,the common man has known this for years,if you no speaky de lingo,you no get very far, innit?:hihi: :hihi:

Remind me again, why there are British ex-pat communities based abroad, and enjoy life with part British culture and part local ones ? Why do British ex-pats still call themselves British foremost when they have chosen to move away from Britain ? Hm... I don't get that either. Why do they not give up their passport, and assimilate into the chosen country's lifestyles ?

Sorry, remind you of what? You've lost me. Presumably the answer to your question is that what you describe represents the last vestiges of empire. I haven't commented on anything you're referring to here.

[quote=bagoI find it too far-fetched an idea that one must be expected to be 'naturalised' to become a citizen. [/QUOTE]

Why then move to another country or culture?

I'm currently learning Chinese though and this is much harder. The four tones mean that pronunciation is far more important, and there are no similar words like in Italian or French:

"Wo hui Zhongwen yidian. Wo bu xihuan Zhongwen!"

:)
That's Mandarin Chinese (Putonghua): Cantonese (Guangdonghua) is even harder as they have upto 9 tones, I believe? The mind boggles! But Mandarin has 5 if you count the neutral tone :) Just out of interest, where are you learning Mandarin? You're getting lessons in Sheffield?

And shouldn't that be wo hui shuo... :suspect: Anyway, wo xiang ni feichang xihuan Zhongwen :thumbsup:

What's racist about it? :huh: Care to elaborate royjames?
I think it is a form of calculated racism. Labour are probably hoping that they can jump on the immigration bandwagon just enough to get re-elected. The reason I think it is racist, is that immigrants from places such as Poland would be exempt as they are in the EU. This means we would have the situation where a new (mostly white) country could join the EU and all the immigrants be exempt, but citizens of other countries which were colonies for centuries would have less rights. We might also have the situation where another EU country could give citizenship to people from their former colonies who then speak, say french, and they would be able to come and live in Britain without restriction.

That's Mandarin Chinese (Putonghua): Cantonese (Guangdonghua) is even harder as they have upto 9 tones, I believe? The mind boggles! But Mandarin has 5 if you count the neutral tone :) Just out of interest, where are you learning Mandarin? You're getting lessons in Sheffield?

And shouldn't that be wo hui shuo... :suspect: Anyway, wo xiang ni feichang xihuan Zhongwen :thumbsup:

Xie xie. Wo hui shuo Zhongwen yidian.

I've bought a book called "Teach Yourself Chinese". It's for complete beginners and comes with cassettes for listening exercises. It's the same way that I taught myself Italian. My girlfriend is Chinese though, so she's also helping me to learn.

:)

LOL. Alright. You see, this is my bad English coming through. Though, explain to me why the reality is as such out there ?

If human nature is such that it is selfish, and do as they please anyway. Then what is the point of controlling people and 'forcing' them to do anything that they may not want to do ?

Why then move to another country or culture ?
People migrate for all sorts of different reasons. Most common one is for a better life. What does a better life mean to others ? I'm not sure exactly why immigration is such a big issue now in this country than ever before, and this itself rile up antagonism within communities. At the best of times.

I was watching a tv prog last night on Thatcherite years, and it touched upon a little bit of political history that I found interesting. Well, not that I know politics indepth anyway. It mentioned something about Britain being economically stagnant, at one point in time. It explained why some citizens wanted to move abroad. However, because the economy changed in the UK. It then led UK to move into a more economically stable environment with oversea trades. I think it is maybe because of such entrepreneurial times, that a lot of small businesses and migrants were able to enter the UK.

My point is that, UK changes because the government controls the people in or out. Majority of SME were possibly immigrants, which were allowed into the countries because of this. Though, in this day and age, which direction is the government moving to ?

I've bought a book called "Teach Yourself Chinese". :)
I had one of those...

My girlfriend is Chinese though, so she's also helping me to learn.
:)
... and one of those! Neither is the best way to learn Mandarin though :hihi: I'd recommend finding a class; Tapton used to do night classes (2 hours once a week) starting in September, and I found them pretty useful.

I was watching a tv prog last night on Thatcherite years, and it touched upon a little bit of political history that I found interesting.


Fascinating program :thumbsup:

Z

immigrants to any country should make an effort to learn the predominant native tongue.

and many do...

if i went off to live in another country i would:)
100% in agreement.Barriers need to be broken.:thumbsup: I DO find it ignorant when people indigenous to this country who can speak english simply don't.

or British people who can barely speak it do so all the time. Especially that pretend Jamaican patois / American-style lingo, with all the 'Yo y'all, what a g'wan, me brethren.' British people aren't Jamaican or American, so what for etc?

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable idea. What happened to the Citizenship (test?) thing that the Government was talking about?

See here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5037658.stm

See here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5037658.stm

I personally think the test is a load of garbage as it's just focuses on past events. I think the teachings of English and the Law is far more important.