http://uk.news.yahoo.com/29052006/344/basra-bomb-kills-uk-soldiers.html


Mr Blair has opened a Hornets nest with Iraq. Our troops seem to be getting killed on a weekly basis. For what exactly? Oh yes i remember the oil :huh:

this is another northen ireland on a far bigger scale ,it will never be resolved

'They were on a routine patrol in an armoured Land Rover in north west Basra when they were hit, the MoD said. Two others received "minor injuries". '

After seeing that documentary about how feeble the landrovers were against roadside bombs, this government needs to get our troops the best and buy a shedload of hummers. Makes me so angry ill equipping our troops, even making some of em pay for kevlar. sickening. :rant:

Bring home our troops and leave them to it, oil or no oil - end of!

Even though I would like to see our British Forces back home, how immoral would it look abandoning a country that we are responsible for ruining?

We have made enemies by going to war, if we retreat now leaving the country in the state its in, the people who are supporting the troops there would also become enemies.

I'm pretty sure TB & GWB were informed of this before they went in, but hey, its what they believe in that counts..

What would you have us do HomeJames?

We are in rather a mess at the moment...If we only care about British troops then fine, pull them out and see Iraq go even further down the toilet...If we care for Iraqi lives as well..then something else needs to be done..

Personally I havent the first clue what we should do...but those criticising should be able to present a viable alternative.

I'm sure Iraq has a big enough army to deal with its internal affairs. With or without our coalition forces its still a mess and perhaps always will be. It was about oil plain and simple. do u think bush gives two thoughts about the Iraqi people's so called freedom? ;)

I'm sure Iraq has a big enough army to deal with its internal affairs. With or without our coalition forces its still a mess and perhaps always will be. It was about oil plain and simple. do u think bush gives two thoughts about the Iraqi people's so called freedom? ;)

Iraq's security force is not big enough at all. The Govt/US have totally underestimated the scale of the post-Saddam aftermath but are doing what they can. The country has so many internal problems with religion etc we are just getting sucked in and blamed. We should pull out when the Iraqis wnat us too and whne the security force can cope.

I'm sure Iraq has a big enough army to deal with its internal affairs. With or without our coalition forces its still a mess and perhaps always will be. It was about oil plain and simple. do u think bush gives two thoughts about the Iraqi people's so called freedom? ;)

We caused the mess in the first place...Regardless of motivation and regardless of how much you want to slate Bush or Blair, theres more to think about here...

The Iraqi army? What Iraqi army? We flattened it remember...Twice..Its a joke, as is their police force and entire infrastructure.. They cannot deal with their internal affairs...

Stop spouting out the tedious and primary school level chants of 'its all about the oil' and actually suggest something...Are you saying that we should just pull all of our forces out and let Iraq fall into complete civil war?

Sorry to dehumanise the question, but..... I guess, as many as it takes to get the job done. Its war and war aint an easy ride.

'Stop spouting out the tedious and primary school level chants of 'its all about the oil' and actually suggest something...Are you saying that we should just pull all of our forces out and let Iraq fall into complete civil war?'

I have suggested something...pull our forces out period. If you think keeping them there for another 4 years is worth countless number of British soldiers lives then so be it. Didn't we pull our forces out of sierra Leone and allow that to fall into disarray? Since when is Iraq so important? A barrel of crude(hope you're frothing at the mouth as i mentioned oil again) ;)

You seem to be the one wound up about my point of view.

We caused the mess in the first place...Regardless of motivation and regardless of how much you want to slate Bush or Blair, theres more to think about here...

The Iraqi army? What Iraqi army? We flattened it remember...Twice..Its a joke, as is their police force and entire infrastructure.. They cannot deal with their internal affairs...

Stop spouting out the tedious and primary school level chants of 'its all about the oil' and actually suggest something...Are you saying that we should just pull all of our forces out and let Iraq fall into complete civil war?

So what you’re saying then, is that faced with force the Iraq army and police force can neither maintain order nor win. They haven’t done so in the last 15 years, and they’re not going to be able to do so against the insurgents. Neither for that matter are we. Bush and Blair have both said it’s not about oil, so, having got rid of Saddam and failed to find any weapons of mass destruction they should order the pull-out.

Once they’ve done that, I fervently believe they should be tried as war criminals. The only other way to end this conflict is by providing our troops with the best weapons and defence systems that money can buy, and allowing them to do as the insurgents do and disregard rules of war.

The days of “shoot the first six and the rest will surrender”, and “send a gunboat” have gone.

Finally, I for one care more about our own troops than about Iraqis in general. They fairly obviously want to shoot it out among themselves, so let’s leave ’em to it.

' by providing our troops with the best weapons and defence systems that money can buy'

remember that mob who killed 6 Military policemen. they were issued with a few rounds each. Blair couldnt even be bothered to turn up when their coffins reached our shores.

'Finally, I for one care more about our own troops than about Iraqis in general. They fairly obviously want to shoot it out among themselves, so let’s leave ’em to it.'

You hit the nail on the head. ;)

There was a story in the paper the other week of a corporal in the TA who received spinal injuries after a scud attack on the Iraq-Kuwait border. TA soldiers are not eligible for the same medical treatment as regulars. The guy was flown back to blighty and dumped at his local NHS hospital in Birmingham. A nurse then told him to take off his uniform because "he might offend somebody". The hospital had no spare beds; they took a quick look at him, gave him a walking stick and told him to go and see his GP.
The glories of New Labour. :rolleyes:

again as i think you may have read in the other posts re this subject, it really upsets and angers me that Blair STILL will not bring our troops home, it is obvious now that our time there is up, civilians are even starting battles and fights with our troops, a couple of years ago civilians were praising our troops!!

My fiance is in the army and has been to Iraq but it was nothign compared to what it is today, ithink they said 11 of OUR lads have died in the past month, what does that tell you??

GET THEM OUT BEFORE ANY MORE DIE!!!!

Blair is such a t*at and i cant stand him, i would really like to see him sending HIS son out to iraq if he was in the army, but because our lads are nothing to do with him he doesnt give a s*it as long as he has his oil and money coming in he couldnt care less about these soldiers and their families!!!

I actually wrote a letter to Blair last week with my views on the whole Iraq thing and wrote exactly what i thought of him! i got a letter back, obviously, saying Mr Blair says thank you for your letter but cannot respond himself bla bla bla, they said it is NOT his matter and that my letter will be passed on to the MOD! wot a load of rubbish, of course it is the MOD but Blair has the last say, he can decide whether it is time to bring our lads home, and Blair, DONT U THINK IT IS TIME NOW?????

:rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant:

They chose to be in the army. Nobody forced them.

There was a story in the paper the other week of a corporal in the TA who received spinal injuries after a scud attack on the Iraq-Kuwait border. TA soldiers are not eligible for the same medical treatment as regulars. The guy was flown back to blighty and dumped at his local NHS hospital in Birmingham. A nurse then told him to take off his uniform because "he might offend somebody". The hospital had no spare beds; they took a quick look at him, gave him a walking stick and told him to go and see his GP.
The glories of New Labour. :rolleyes:

The scud attacks were in 1991. Even assuming that there is a glimmer of truth in this story, then it would not have been a Labour government for several years to come.

I just want to point out, when we talk of getting the army out, or get the troops out, these are actually sons, husbands, fathers etc. My son was in Iraq from the very 1st day. the wife and I hardly slept a wink. And before someone says thats what they joined the army for, I'm sure that would be a great comfort to all the grieving families

The scud attacks were in 1991. Even assuming that there is a glimmer of truth in this story, then it would not have been a Labour government for several years to come.
Nice try, Ken. Source here (towards bottom of first page):

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2189515_1,00.html

caramac i agree, when my fiance was in Iraq, a lad he knew had his bum actually blown off in a car bomb attack, people may laugh but his life is ruined as is most of these soliders, i mean these soliders are human beings, and joined the army to defend and fight for YOUR country!!

these soldiers are someones sons/daughter, husbands/wives, fathers/mothers!

SHOW SOME BLOODY RESPECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rant: :rant: :rant:

My fiance is in the forces and i HATE it when people slag them off or dont give them an ounce of respect or their families!!!

all you have to do is go to work, probably 9-5 come home have ur tea do whatever u like, these lads are fighting a war that shouldnt have even happened in the first place working 24/7!!!! :rant: :rant: :rant:

all you have to do is go to work, probably 9-5 come home have ur tea do whatever u like, these lads are fighting a war that shouldnt have even happened in the first place working 24/7!!!! :rant: :rant: :rant:

I can appreciate your concern for your fiance. But I CHOSE a 9-5 job. Your fiance CHOSE the army.

The fact that our troops are getting killed is saddening and upsetting.

But what do you expect when you join the army?

You can rant all you want about the war being "unjustified"... but wouldn't ANY war where your fiance/relative is involed always be "unjustified" in your eyes?

If we pull out, it will be a case of screwing another country of its resources and letting them deal with the mess that has been created by us and the americans.

Thats what it really boils down to.

'The fact that our troops are getting killed is saddening and upsetting.

But what do you expect when you join the army?'

If our troops could fight on the same level as the insurgents, things might be different.instead they are being picked off like flies. And when our troops use any form of force there are ten committees set up to find out why they did it etc etc and prosecute any soldier in breach of some petty rule.

Those soldiers who gave those Iraqis a hiding during the riots were condemned for their actions. The media didn't point out that they were being stoned/ petrol bombed etc etc. So how u meant to quell a riot? Go in with the nicely nicely approach. hmmmm methinks not.

I am very saddened to hear people say "what did they expect when they joined the Army". Although they will have joined for a number of reasons, they are still serving their country. This means they are serving you! You may not like the war and may want it to end, but that is an issue for politics and has no bearing on the soldiers themselves. I doubt that there has ever been a war where everyone, including the soldiers taking part, all thought it was justified. If you decide to get a 9-5 job rather than serve your country then that is a right in a democracy but nothing to be proud of.

ive deleted the post because i wouldve got flamed to death :D

If you decide to get a 9-5 job rather than serve your country then that is a right in a democracy but nothing to be proud of.

So, because I'm not in the army I can't be proud of myself?

Unfortunatley there are not many people who join the Army because they feel sympathetic to a political cause, people join the Army knowing FULL WELL that they WILL be posted out and the chances are likely they will be going to a place with some degree of hostility towards them.

As bad as it is for the families they CHOSE that profession and it seems pointless going away and then complaining about it. Iraq is a country that NEEDED sorting out, as is Iran and Zimbabwe et al with DICTATORS in charge, killing people and being a threat to world peace.

If we flush Insurgents out of the Middle East and create relative peace and stability, in the long run we might just settle an area that has the potential to end the world.

If we pull out of Iraq now the country will degenerate into complete civil war and hatred towards the West will breed in the average Muslim there. Give them a job and the opportunity to give their kids a stable life and a BETTER one than they had, you might just create a legacy that is worth keeping.

Leave the Middle east and we will end up with Iran with NUCLEAR weapons, and a free state for insurgents to train and then come to try and destroy our country.

I'd much rather 2,000 soldiers die doing their job and creating a stable middle east than 5,000 civilians get killed when Al Quida bomb Canary Wharf. Then another 3,000 next year when they bomb the Bullring. Etc.

It is sad when ANYONE loses their life, and perhaps the Govt. should be providing more in the way of weapons/tanks etc but thats a different argument entirely.

End of rant.

So, because I'm not in the army I can't be proud of myself?

No, not when you talk about someone serving his country in a war zone, in the same sentence as if both things are equivalent!

What would you have us do HomeJames?

We are in rather a mess at the moment...If we only care about British troops then fine, pull them out and see Iraq go even further down the toilet...If we care for Iraqi lives as well..then something else needs to be done..


Actually Iraqi women and children are being killed by Coalition troops. The deaths are being reported at www.electroniciraq.net

I hope everyone reading checks this site out, as it represents the ONLY independent journalism out of Iraq today.

I hope everyone reading checks this site out, as it represents the ONLY independent journalism out of Iraq today.

What rubbish! It represents a different slant on things from the other journalists, thats all. It is pubished by electronicintifada.net, if the domain name doesn't tell you all you need to know about bias, then look at their main site which "publishes news, commentary, analysis, and reference materials about the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict from a Palestinian perspective". Hardly independant is it?

What rubbish! It represents a different slant on things from the other journalists, thats all. It is pubished by electronicintifada.net, if the domain name doesn't tell you all you need to know about bias, then look at their main site which "publishes news, commentary, analysis, and reference materials about the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict from a Palestinian perspective". Hardly independant is it?

All other journalists in Iraq are embedded with the army. That means that they take orders from the US government on where they can be, and what stories can be printed. Most of the news that is currently being produced is from the Israeli point of view, so this was a group of American intellectuals who are not even Palestinian who decided to help when they saw the censorship that was occurring.

Please tell me you actually READ something on this site instead of just switching your brain off.

There's unlikely to be peace in Iraq until it splits into its constituent parts: the Kurdish, Sunni and Shi'ite areas. Interestingly, I heard Sir Jeremy Greenstock (former UK-UN ambassador and Blair Iraq envoy) on TV tonight conceding that this might be necessary.

There's unlikely to be peace in Iraq until it splits into its constituent parts: the Kurdish, Sunni and Shi'ite areas. Interestingly, I heard Sir Jeremy Greenstock (former UK-UN ambassador and Blair Iraq envoy) on TV tonight conceding that this might be necessary.

I don't think it needs to split up. I mean, does Britain have to split up into Muslim, Pakistani, Indian, African and white areas? Iraq has been a country for generations now. If there is a mess then it has been caused by the War in the first place and the entire country needs to solve it.

tottally agree .................

I can appreciate your concern for your fiance. But I CHOSE a 9-5 job. Your fiance CHOSE the army.

The fact that our troops are getting killed is saddening and upsetting.

But what do you expect when you join the army?

You can rant all you want about the war being "unjustified"... but wouldn't ANY war where your fiance/relative is involed always be "unjustified" in your eyes?
I just knew someone would have to say it, and your the one, I hope your very comfy in your 9-5 job, while my son and some brave young lads protect you and your rights, and if they get killed, hey thats what he joined the army for. and like you say if they get killed its upsetting....UPPSETING....its bloody devastating
The point is, the army were sent into iraq because saddam was said to have weapons of mass destruction, but he did'nt did he?
but you enjoy your freedom to work 9-5 and to watch the news that some more of our brave troops have died, but hey then again thats what they joined for

So I get shot-down (pardon the pun) for having a 9-5 job?

I wish we lived in a democratic society where people could CHOOSE what job they do. One day... one day...

I just knew someone would have to say it, and your the one, I hope your very comfy in your 9-5 job, while my son and some brave young lads protect you and your rights, and if they get killed, hey thats what he joined the army for. and like you say if they get killed its upsetting....UPPSETING....its bloody devastating
The point is, the army were sent into iraq because saddam was said to have weapons of mass destruction, but he did'nt did he?
but you enjoy your freedom to work 9-5 and to watch the news that some more of our brave troops have died, but hey then again thats what they joined for

Very well put, the news that the majority of us get to see and hear is very selective and vetted, we don't see the horrors that some of our troops endure day in and out and the suffering that is caused back home for their families. Lets show some respect for families and friends that have lost sons and daughters in a war that has gone on too long.

The war was never about WMD and I guess Blair knew that. If we remeber rightly this war started of looking for Global terroists after 9/11 and then quickly turned into a witch hunt for Saddam after Bin Laden evaded the best America had to offer in the Afghanistan Mountains. WMD was an excuse to vent some anger and get some payback for the Americans, maybe with new oil fields as the spoils !!! (that's my opinion anyhow)

So I get shot-down (pardon the pun) for having a 9-5 job?

I wish we lived in a democratic society where people could CHOOSE what job they do. One day... one day...
nobody is shooting you down for doing a 9-5 job, I do a similar job, but to say they joined the army, so what do they expect. and now to say you WISHED you lived in a democratic society. Its these people who as you say can expect to be killed, that fight for the democratic society you live in.
In your first post you state you chose to do a 9-5 job, ie you can in a democratic society
now you state you wished you lived in a democratic society so you could choose what job you do.
your not really sure what you mean are you?

There's unlikely to be peace in Iraq until it splits into its constituent parts: the Kurdish, Sunni and Shi'ite areas. Interestingly, I heard Sir Jeremy Greenstock (former UK-UN ambassador and Blair Iraq envoy) on TV tonight conceding that this might be necessary.

Just out of interest does anyone know which would get the land rich in oil?

Just out of interest does anyone know which would get the land rich in oil?

Using your theory about what would create peace, we would have one tribe owning the oil. We currently have the situation, once this mess is sorted out, where a country should be very rich. If it is split into tribes then one of them would be very rich and the others probably very poor. I can't see this producing a stable environment can you?

I don't think it needs to split up. I mean, does Britain have to split up into Muslim, Pakistani, Indian, African and white areas? Iraq has been a country for generations now. If there is a mess then it has been caused by the War in the first place and the entire country needs to solve it.
On your point about Britain - who knows, it might happen by the end of this century.

On Iraq, there is deep rivalry between the three ethnic/religious groups. The Kurds are probably the most satisfied with the current state of affairs: they have their own de facto state, something which they have long craved. The Sunnis were the dominant group in the government of Iraq under Saddam despite not being the largest group and (to address 4U2NV' s question above) having the least amount of oil in their territory. It is the Sunni nationalists (Saddam loyalists) who are leading the resistance to the US occupation, supported by some foreign 'terrorist' infiltrators. The Shi'ites in the south might be happy to be absorbed by Iran: a calamitous outcome for the western globalists.

With hindsight, the strategic blunder the Americans made after the invasion (from their perspective) was not to focus just on removing Saddam and his immediate circle whilst working with the rest of the Sunni Ba'ath party structure, including the army.

Using your theory about what would create peace, we would have one tribe owning the oil. We currently have the situation, once this mess is sorted out, where a country should be very rich. If it is split into tribes then one of them would be very rich and the others probably very poor. I can't see this producing a stable environment can you?

I'de agree not a stable enviroment for one tribe to control Iraq's oil wealth cant see the other two tribes sitting back, however just wanted to know who BUSH/BLAIR would cosy upto if it were the case. :suspect:

As well as where the oil is actually extracted from you need to think about where the pipelines run and which port/s it might be shipped from.