Last nights Derren Brown show was quite interesting when it looked at recreating 'magik' with a believer in New Age philosophy.

Basically he had a woman in a wood, took the ring from her finger and put it inside the heart cavity of a voodoo doll to give it a soul -part of her soul.

He then wrapped wool around the dolls legs (with his back turned to her) and as he finished tying the dolls he turned so she could see what he was doing. The woman suddenly couldn't move her legs.

Then he tied the dolls arms, and she couldn't move her arms, in fact she was paralysed.

Next he tied the wool around the dolls neck, and you guessed it, she choked and couldn't utter a word no matter how hard she tried.

She stood motionless and unable to move or speak.

Derren then untied the doll, and she was restored, amazed at what happened.

The point was - it wasn't a proper voodoo doll at all, and Derren had only pretended to put the ring inside the doll. The ring was on her finger ALL the time - she just thought that it had been put into the doll to give it a part of her soul.

New Age philosophies... nonsense, or just the power of suggestion? What do you think?

Originally posted by Tony
New Age philosophies... nonsense, or just the power of suggestion? What do you think?

For ignorant people like me, could you tell us a bit more about what New Age philosophies actually are?
That Derren Brown (probably) managed to hynotise someone with these beliefs doesn't really help.

Nomme

I thought it was a bit scary.It's amazing how some people's minds are so susceptible to mind control.If you have faith in something you are less likely to question things which makes you more of a target for brainwashing,hypnotism etc.

New agers are a blight on humanity. I don't watch Derren Brown and whilst he may use Magic he ain't using no magik. He needs to go visit Paul Daniels perhaps they share tricks.

Even his website states he uses "applied psychology, magic, misdirection and showmanship" and to associate this nitwit with anything even remotely magikal is highly imformative of the masses ignorance.

Moon Maiden

The programme was about debunking ideas about magic,voodoo etc,just showing the powerful nature of belief.He isn't claiming to have powers or anything,what he does is very clever and learned.His ability to read people is fantastic,he doesn't read minds,though i can imagine how creepy it is to be part of his experiments.

You don't need a flippin program....I see Stephen King do it thousands of times and local gypsies.

Since when did magik and Voudou become new age?

Since when did magik and Voudou become new age?
I don't know anything about New Age,magic and voodoo are the things he was talking about and the woman he was experimenting on was a New Age believer.What does New Age involve,my boss says she is a pagan,is that similar?

erm......it depends what branch of paganism he follows really. Personally I lump in Wicca, certain branches od Druidry and anything that invovles crystals and fung shui.
You can spot new agers a mile off, normally middle aged women on a reiki course clutching chakra necklaces and blessing everything.....erm sorry no I think that is wiccan again :o

Brown doesn't claim to have magic powers, he's a psychologist.

Oh. Aaand I just read that someone else put the same thing.

Don't believe in magical powers or religioin of any kind. Just think Derren Brown's a very clever man.

My thoughts too about Derren,not sure about the whole religious stuff.

*sigh* It is really difficult for me to keep quiet on all this but I am trying my best.
One of the main reasons I love coming here is it reminds me what people outside magik and occult circles don't know, understand and what people may or not be able to comprehend. So thank you for that.
The other reason is I live in sheffield and all is relevant.

*zip*

I don't believe in religion and philosophy and all that business... But I have no problem with folk who do, if that's their belief then good for them I say.

Originally posted by noseyrosie
Don't believe in magical powers or religioin of any kind.
You must do, otherwise how do you explain things that you can't explain?

Originally posted by Sidla
You must do, otherwise how do you explain things that you can't explain?

Just because you can't explain it doesn't mean it is magic or anything to do with religion. It simply means we don't have the understanding yet. Many people take the attitude that if you can't explain it, then it must be god or magic.

Originally posted by Foxxx
Just because you can't explain it doesn't mean it is magic or anything to do with religion. It simply means we don't have the understanding yet. Many people take the attitude that if you can't explain it, then it must be god or magic.
Magic:
adj.
1. As yet unexplained, or too complicated to explain; compare {automagically} and (Arthur C.) Clarke's Third Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." "TTY echoing is controlled by a large number of magic bits." "This routine magically computes the parity of an 8-bit byte in three instructions."
2. Characteristic of something that works although no one really understands why (this is especially called {black magic}).
3. [Stanford] A feature not generally publicized that allows something otherwise impossible, or a feature formerly in that category but now unveiled. Compare {black magic}, {wizardly}, {deep magic}, {heavy wizardry}. For more about hackish `magic', see {A Story About `Magic'} (in {appendix A}).

Well I can't work out if you are agreeing with me there or not.


Magic
The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural.

The practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature.
The charms, spells, and rituals so used.
The exercise of sleight of hand or conjuring for entertainment.
A mysterious quality of enchantment: “For me the names of those men breathed the magic of the past” (Max Beerbohm).

adj.
Of, relating to, or invoking the supernatural: “stubborn unlaid ghost/That breaks his magic chains at curfew time” (John Milton).
Possessing distinctive qualities that produce unaccountable or baffling effects.



Here's some more definitions for you. It depends what context you are using the term 'magic' really.

Derren Brown doesn't claim to use Magic in the terms of magical supernatural powers. He uses magic in the terms of slight of hand, entertainment. All Derren Brown is doing is showing that you can appear to read people's minds and do fantastic tricks without using any powers at all. He's using power of suggestion, pyschology, slight of hand, memory skills etc to do things that other people do and claim they have powers. Maybe these people claim to have 'magical powers' really believe they have powers and they just don't realise that they can do magic by using the same skills as Derren. Derren trained to do what he does, maybe others have it more naturally but it can all be explained.

I myself don't know. I have dabbled in many things in the past and can't explain some of the things I've seen and witnessed....yet. It's easy to assume it's supernatural, it's easy to assume it's magic, or god created it etc. I don't know one way or another, I like to stay open minded, but I am also a scientist and I like to look for a logical explanation.

There are some things within the scope of human experience that run deep ... and there can be no words to explain or label them ...

They are behond that part of the human brain / mind that deals with catagorising and labeling things and seeing one thing as being seperate to another.

Attempting to explain these things in words ... you will at best lose the original essense of that which you wish to communicate ... and at worse be laffed at and ridiculed.

The Rude Monkey ... he say ... "words are designed to confuse people" ... and I hope these words enlightens you !!!

Ho ho ho.

(In reply to Foxxx)

I was neither agreeing nor disagreeing, I was merely adding a different perspective.

I wouldn't say that what Derren does is magic, in fact I would say it's more the opposite. When I watch Derren I seem to understand how he does what he does (even though I wouldn't be able to recreate it), and I think this is the way he intends it.

I wouldn't say that any 'magician' practices 'magic' in the definition you just posted. However, if I can't explain something I'd describe it as magic, even though I know that I must have been tricked or decieved in some way.

However, there are some things that cannot be explained and probably never will be. This is where religion comes in.

IMO.

The source of your definition Sidla is from the 'Jargon File 4.2.0"

The fiirst line of which says:

"This document is a collection of slang terms used by various subcultures of computer hackers. "

It's hardly common usage of the word is it?

Nomme

As I said, it was posted as a different perspective.

If you ask a room full of magik users what magik is the difference in responces is quite interesting.
Many people quote Crowley there is also dion fortune: "the art of changing conciousness at will"
Anyone involved in the occult will give you a profound or scientific sounding explanation to what they believe magik is, but associating magik and religion is stupid.

Of course "new age" is ridiculous. On a program I was watching the other day, there was an experiment into tarot cards. The same man was dressed up in three different ways, three different tarot readers "luckily" overheard part of a telephone conversation that he was having, and then went to the the reading.

In each case, the reading of the cards reflected accurately on the way he was dressed and acting - when he smelled of Tequila and had thee-day stubble, the cards predicted that he was having trouble with work, but things would turn around.

Dressed casually, and telling his wife on the phone that he loved her? The cards saw children in his future, and a happy relationship.

It's all... Bulls**t!

Originally posted by Tony
Last nights Derren Brown show was quite interesting when it looked at recreating 'magik' with a believer in New Age philosophy.
New Age philosophies... nonsense, or just the power of suggestion? What do you think?

Whatever it was, if it was on television it was complete cojones.

If it can be faked, its not paranormal, its a fake.

If it can't be faked - then it is paranormal.

It's never been paranormal. Ever.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Whatever it was, if it was on television it was complete cojones.

If it can be faked, its not paranormal, its a fake.

If it can't be faked - then it is paranormal.

Hmm. So how do you feel about the moon landing then?

Nomme

None of you actually have a clue what new age is do you?

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
None of you actually have a clue what new age is do you?

Ahem. I refer you to the second post in this thread by me. I'm still waiting for Tony to reply (and who has been strangely silent since starting the topic) but if you'd like to take it on yourself I (and I guess others) would be most grateful.

Nomme

Hehe... sorry, I was enjoying the banter ;)

It was Derren Brown who used the term 'New Age' so I hope I'm off the hook for the thread title :)

Well my version of New Age is anything a little bit mysterious that people with a hole in their lives use to fill the void - in fact I reckon that Moon came closest with...
Originally posted by Moon Maiden
Personally I lump in Wicca, certain branches od Druidry and anything that invovles crystals and fung shui.
You can spot new agers a mile off, normally middle aged women on a reiki course clutching chakra necklaces and blessing everything.....erm sorry no I think that is wiccan again :o
I'm all for using the power of persuasion with mind over matter, and sometimes a little belief in the unknown to support that is fine (like God / Buddah / Sky Gods / Krishna / Chakra / Etc for instance), but living your life according to crystals is just plain weird.


Originally posted by nomme
Hmm. So how do you feel about the moon landing then? Ummm.. well that really happened - I don't understand your angle.

Originally posted by nomme
Hmm. So how do you feel about the moon landing then?

Nomme

The moon landing was much more than tv pics nomme.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
The moon landing was much more than tv pics nomme.

The moon landing was merely one of a million examples to counter your assertion that:

"Whatever it was, if it was on television it was complete cojones."

Which to be frank, is patently cojones.

Off topic, but there are conspiracy theorists who do believe the moon landings were faked ....
http://www.google.com/search?q=moon+landing+faked&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8


Nomme

The term is really stupid to be honest it is simply old ways being brought back in a really stupid and somewhat offensive way.

Tarot is not a 'new' thing, reiki is not a 'new' thing. Many practises or beliefs which are called 'new age' have actually being present or dormant in cultures throughout the world for millenia.
That is of course until some do gooder with far too much money and common sense takes them out of their natural context mixes them up and turns them into the latest fad.

It is very much like how some wiccans (wicca=witchcraft religion initiated during 1920's in UK) taking the principal of Buddhist Karma and mixing it with wicca and taking both concepts completely out of context.

My shop is wrongly dubbed by too many people as a 'new age shop' There is nothing new age about it, but then the yellow pages seem to be lacking in a magik and occult section.

It is half the reason why so many people are put off by these old ways because they simply have not been exercised in the manner to which they were discovered.

Personally I don't have a problem if people think my practises are a crock..each to their own. But it is so much better to think something is a crock for the right reasons, not just cos they think they know what they are talking about because Richard and Judy said so.

Originally posted by nomme
For ignorant people like me, could you tell us a bit more about what New Age philosophies actually are?
That Derren Brown (probably) managed to hynotise someone with these beliefs doesn't really help.

Nomme
Living in Australia I have never heard of Derren Brown. However I can say this ? New Age philosophy is much more than voodoo and magic. It's a belief in the power of the mind and the abilty of the mind to create your reality. It's about having control over your own life and making choices that are truly in your best intrerest. It's about having faith in something that we are ALL a part of, call it god, nature, higher consciousness, whatever you like. It's a belief in all men (and women) being equal and in forgiveness. It is like any other spiritual belief, other than organised religion. So, you who would knock it or mock it. Go to the library and get out a few books. enlighten yourself, you will be surpried by what you learn.

Originally posted by nomme

Off topic, but there are conspiracy theorists who do believe the moon landings were faked ....
http://www.google.com/search?q=moon+landing+faked&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8


Nomme

But those idiots can easily be refuted with facts and stuff

(I bet I mess that link up, it's http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html if I do)


Susie

Maybe this thread should be merged with the 'mediums' thread?