Hey guys


Thought this might be an interesting thread because of the large number of martial artists on this board. I'm interested in:

a) What originally made you decide to train, whether it be for self defence or fitness or something else.

b) What made you continue to train? Do you still feel the need to learn self defence techniques every week or is something else keeping you there, e.g. the people you train with, or just because it's fun? Are you still hoping to get in the ring/cage?

In my case I started to train in BJJ because I was intrigued by the success of the techniques in the early UFC's, and thought it would be cool to learn them. I was also trying to get fitter. Nowadays I think of BJJ as a fun mental work out rather than physical, and it's also one of the few things that I genuinely enjoy learning about.

I'd also like to know what keeps someone training in say, kung fu or karate for 10 years (or more). I don't mean this as an insult, but most people would agree that a boxer training for 3 years would be more likely to win a fight against this person. Even more so a person with MMA training. So what makes you so dedicated? Please understand that I tred to phrase that without it sounding like a dig, it certainly was not intended.

thanks for your responses.

I train because I enjoy the competitive skill - against - skill aspect and to keep fit, but while I'm doing that I'd like to learn things that would be practically useful - hence training BJJ and kickboxing, both at clubs that involve full resistance sparring.

If I'm ever good enough to go for ring/cage fighting then I might do, but it's not really my primary goal at the moment... if I ever have time with nothing else to do I'd probably start taking it more seriously.

Wouldn't mind trying some kung fu styles just to see if there is anything that might be useful for MMA, and maybe to learn how to use some weapons. Might do over the summer.

Cool Crayfish, I don't know what drives people into the cage but full respect to anyone that does!

My personal opinion on the 'practically useful' aspect of training is that it's a losing battle, but worth fighting if you see what I mean. For example I think that if you train in a striking art, you should spar full contact. BJJ's strength comes from the fact that we are constantly pressure testing our stuff with full sparring. Therefore if you trained in these arts you would expect to be pretty well covered should you ever get into a fight. BUT I can think of at least 3 situations where you would be screwed:

A Gang attacks you

A knife is drawn

A Strong wrestler decides to belly to face suplex you on the concrete (yes I know no one knows wrestling around here lol)

Ok, so the obvious response is to learn knife defence, multiple attacker defense and wrestling. Fine, but then after the 10 years it take you to master all this, you get shot. My point is, you can never be prepared for everything, so is training for self defence an unachievable, and hence misguided goal?

Perhaps the best thing to do then is to just learn how to sprint faster than anybody else in sheffield eh? Or maybe any training in martial art gives someone an awareness and calmness to react to an attack. They may not use the style(s)they train in, but increased awareness probably goes a long way no?

While it's hard to cover for every situation, you can still cover for a lot e.g. pub brawl, you just plain don't like someone etc. - being shot isn't something martial arts are generally going to help you with except that you might be fit enough to get out of there very quickly.

What training full contact/resistance also teaches you is that some situations aren't really possible to deal with and no technique is flawless - this is something that concerns me about arts that do teach knife defenses etc. but not in a realistic way. If someone pulled a knife on me I'd most probably be a blur in the opposite direction, but I think if someone was for example a black belt in traditional jujitsu or taekwondo they might be tempted to stick around, not knowing just how many things can actually go wrong with the techniques they've been shown. I knew someone who had only ever done Tai Bo (the aerobics thing) who said they weren't worried about being attacked with a knife because they thought they could kick it out of their opponents hands.

Plus training full resistance obviously gives you an edge in a direct one on one fight or even friendly (full contact) sparring with someone who's never trained realistically.

Also you would at least have a better chance should the gang fight, knife fight or wrestling scenario happen than someone who's never trained at all... does offer some self defense benefits at least, even if it doesn't necessarily turn you into an all-powerful invincible fighting beast

i fully agree with the knife scenario, every place I have seen teaching defence from a knife attack in my opinion has been incredibly unrealistic. I am sure there are places that have effective techniques mind...The main problem with defense against knife techniques is no-one shows a knife before they use it. It slips out of their back pocket and straight into someones gut (I have seen quite a few vitims of such incidents). Most defense techniques I have seen start with the knife out.......

I have heard good things aboiut systems like Krav Maga tho....

Me too, still safer to leg it though :) But I guess you might not always have that option

As a reply to the original question I train for the fitness aspect and the enjoyment of training with different people and at different clubs. also training in different systems. I personally enjoy cross training as I believe no one system has it all. I train BJJ and Muay Thai
I teach KAPAP which is the next level on from Krav Maga.
As for knife defence, at our club we concentrate a lot of time to this subject.
We use NO LIE blades that mark your body to show the slash and stab wounds.
If you get attacked by a knife YOU WILL GET CUT and you have to be prepared for this.
In KAPAP we teach how to minimise the damage you could recieve from the knife, and end the fight quickly.
After saying this it is definately better to run away if possible.

If anyone is interested i've heard a lot of people say good stuff about Karl Tanswell's S.TA.B program for knife defense, and also Jerry Wetzel's Red Zone program. Both of these assume firstly that escape is not immediately possible and that you ARE likely to get cut. It's all based around clinch work and the techniques can be 'sparred' very easily.

Anyway, I've gone off of my original point here. I agree that martial arts can potentially give you an advantage in a fight situation. Howeve they can also put you worse off situation by giving you a false sense of confidence (as you mention) or teaching you bad/inappropriate technique. Isn't the best 'technique' for self defense to avoid the places where you are likely to meet violence, like clubs? :confused:

The more and more I think about it, the more the idea of self defense seems like a fallacy. It especially intrigues me that the most effective arts (if we can trust cage fights as a measure of effectiveness) are the least popular for the average joe who might get picked on by muggers, bullies etc. Gyms that require heavy sparring tend to be 'survival of the fittest', picking off those who can't take the pressure in the first lesson, who then flock to less pressured but perhaps less effective arts.

hi, perhaps this is gonna sound odd but i practice my martial art mainly as a sort of meditation. i tune into my kinaesthetic sense and get better results if my mind winks out than if i think about what i'm doing. suppose its an exercise of flow, alignment and energy where feeling is useful and thinking sort of gets in the way.
i really cant say that i think i'd be any cop in a fight so no delusions on that one but i do seem to be able to develop short range power at odd angles, rather more fa jing than li.

crayfish fights like a man possesed.... i've got about 20 stone on him but he is a bendy man, and a pleasure to roll with.... oh and if you study really hard you can dodge a bullet..... i saw that guy in the matrix do it..... and it has to be real if its on telly.

Eek, I weigh something like -4 stones? Can't be healthy :)

Was a good roll we had the other day! Not going to be training for a couple of weeks now though so my fitness will be somewhere around zero next time we meet :D

I got into my art like most I was bullied as a kid and got fed up with it so it was a kind of necessity but what has kept me training in traditional arts compared to MMA, well the instructor. If the instructor only looks at the fancy stuff then all you are doing is glorified aerobics but if the instructor looks at the practical then the world is your oyster. At the end of the day traditional MT came about from necessity the need to protect your self and all they did was use what worked for them, isn’t that all that MMA do???????? So what’s the difference between MMA and TMA??????

If it works it works.


If you want to do some Chinese Martial arts come see me ill show you its not all like in the movies and flash.

- Good way to channel stress and frustration of everyday life into something constructive
- Keeps me in good shape and fit
- I enjoy the competition and the buzz you get when you know you're good at something
- We have a laugh at training as well and it takes my mind off things :)

I started because I wanted to do some self defence and a friend was already training.
I carried on because I enjoy the training and I like the people I train with.

Training for self defence is far from pointless. Just because a martial art isn't going to help if you're hit by a tactical nuke doesn't render it pointless. Most of the time people don't have tac nukes in their bag, so if you've trained for the most common self defence scenario then it may well be of some use to you at some point.

It's always worth making the point in training that if someone attacks you with a knife, you should expect to get cut. The trick is making sure you don't get killed.

It started from reading nutrition and supplement, vitamins I bumped into a friend who does a lot of reading on Nutralite and we got chatting in a cafe at wicker about health, sports and I noticed he had a leaflet on Thai boxing and I enquired and well, I went and kept on training but moved Thai Boxing, then kicking boxing and then Kung Fu.

I think in back of my mind though what kept me training was me going home at night to see those big bellies of some people coming out of the pub and that was enough to keep me training. :hihi:

I started just because I fancied something to do, so that means I have been doing traditional Okinawan Goju Ryu Karate for 22 years!

I still do it because it challenges me mentally and physically, I certainly don't practice it for the fighting skills it has endowed me with. As no matter how good you are there is always someone better!


andyb
www.hallamdojo.co.uk

Hi Cyclone,

You know of the course that the self defence technique for a tactical nuke is 2 tactical nukes ;)

I don't deny that training for self defence might help you in a violent situation, but what I mean to say is, is it really a valid reason for training?

Would it not be more worthwhile to train in an environment where you get hit and submitted because you enjoy the sport, you like testing your zone of comfort, you like being part of a group of interesting people, the challenge etc etc and after 10 years being able to say, wow, I've had such a satisfying experience and what a bonus! I don't think anyone would pick me to attack nowadays!

Be aware of the guys who collect knives and wear camoflage trousers for no apparent reason.. thats what happens when you worry to much about self defence!

There is a new layout to my forum
Categories include
Introductions, Kickboxing, kung fu, tai chi, wing Chun, karate, mma, and more.

Have a look

I starting in the first istance because both parents trained in karate so naturally i did, and once into it i loved it. the atmosphere and the traditional parts of it are inspiring.

Mostly the fact that you can never know it all, so are always improving.



I'd also like to know what keeps someone training in say, kung fu or karate for 10 years (or more). I don't mean this as an insult, but most people would agree that a boxer training for 3 years would be more likely to win a fight against this person. Even more so a person with MMA training. So what makes you so dedicated? Please understand that I tred to phrase that without it sounding like a dig, it certainly was not intended.

thanks for your responses.

This isnt a dig Jimanyjim, but what basis do you think a boxer with 3 years experiance would win against a karate ka with 10 years?

I watched the Karate kid read some Martial Arts magazines and knew it was something I wanted to do.
I started Shotokan then Kickboxing then Taekwondo that was 20 years ago!
At the moment I am getting more drawn into RBSD and have just affliated my Taekwondo club to the SDF with Dave Turton. I also teach Kickboxing.
I enjoy doing all aspects of Martial Arts ,on Monday I went doing some Grappling and Stuff up Barnsley(Hosinsul TKD SDF), never done much ground fighting but really enjoyed it.
Tonight I have been invited up to Dave Mantis club to teach some TKD kicking, the good thing about Martial Arts are all the friends and different people you meet in this country and abroad.

This thread is really interesting...I just started kickboxing. I'm not very good and i cant imagine ever going in the ring. I started cause im on a fitness kick but also for self defense purposes. I walk my dog in my local park and from time to time theres groups of lads there messing. One night they garbbed me and tried to get my top off me and it scared the hell out of me. I tried to run but there was three of them and two of them watching and they kept cutting me off. They only left it when this big bloke with an alsation shouted over. Dont know what id have done if he hadnt. I know the main advice is leg it or spray them in the face with something but i couldnt leg it and i wouldnt have had time to go in my bag, get out a can etc. I know some people say its better not to resist cause the attacker will be more brutal if you do but personally i'd rather feel like i could try SOMETHING rather than just let some person violate me. I was shaking and felt really angry after what happened and i think that was largely cause i felt so helpless. I have very pacifst leanings and my mates find it hilarious i started kickboxing but its already making me feel more confident. If it happened again id still try and run first.




Training for self defence is far from pointless. Just because a martial art isn't going to help if you're hit by a tactical nuke doesn't render it pointless. Most of the time people don't have tac nukes in their bag, so if you've trained for the most common self defence scenario then it may well be of some use to you at some point.

It's always worth making the point in training that if someone attacks you with a knife, you should expect to get cut. The trick is making sure you don't get killed.

Important point. ;-) It was reported in The Star recently that a girl was attacked by a potential rapist but actually managed to fend the guy off using a kick boxing move!!!

mutually assured destruction as a form of self defence, I like it.

It's a reason that people often start training. If it's the only reason (and they don't find that they enjoy it) they rarely stay long enough for it to ever benefit them.
I started partly for self defence reasons, I don't stay because of that, and it hasn't been a reason for at least the last 5 years.

Hi Cyclone,

You know of the course that the self defence technique for a tactical nuke is 2 tactical nukes ;)

I don't deny that training for self defence might help you in a violent situation, but what I mean to say is, is it really a valid reason for training?

Would it not be more worthwhile to train in an environment where you get hit and submitted because you enjoy the sport, you like testing your zone of comfort, you like being part of a group of interesting people, the challenge etc etc and after 10 years being able to say, wow, I've had such a satisfying experience and what a bonus! I don't think anyone would pick me to attack nowadays!

Be aware of the guys who collect knives and wear camoflage trousers for no apparent reason.. thats what happens when you worry to much about self defence!


Catt - I hope you reported that to the police, and make sure you don't put yourself in that situation again.

dan_ - i'd back the boxer too.

I would also back the boxer. Try watching mixed martial arts competitions involving purist karate-ka e.g. some of the earlier UFCs. Generally don't perform well.

Um, except for Kyokushinkai. That's cool. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyokushinkai

But having trained at several karate clubs, in most cases I don't think of it as a practical art due to the way it's trained at the majority of clubs. (Trying very hard not to offend the minority of clubs who train realistic / full contact karate here e.g. kyokushinkai that I mentioned, as they'd break me)

I wouldn't back a boxer against a similar level MMA fighter though. (Similar amount of training time and natural ability), oh and similar size and weight.

Might make it to the 393Club next Monday crayfish, do you train there?

I do, and it'd be good to see you. I should be down on Monday with luck, sleepless though I may be.

Catt - I hope you reported that to the police, and make sure you don't put yourself in that situation again.


Yeah i did report it but the police werent very bothered and I didnt 'put' myself in that situation, i was walking my dog in my local park!!!! ;-)

I didn't mean to imply that it was your fault.

Hopefully as part of your training though you're taught that awareness is probably the most important skill in self defence. If you can see a dangerous situation before it's unavoidable, then you never have to do anything involving fighting.
Fighting is the last resort when the rest of your self defence techniques have failed.

No offense taken. ;-) In the first hand i would obviously avoid such a situation, then try and run and only if i had no choice try something else. I think kick boxing builds confidence so yes, i think this might help project a more confident me that people would be less likely to try and mess with...!!

However, i do find it sad that people would want to mess with someone just for walking their dog in the park at 7.00 at night!! ;-( Not fair!!

Clyclone & Crayfish, you both say that you would back the boxer, yet have not given any reasons for arriving at this opinion. Having studied one martial art for quite a while and another two 'on and off' I have a rough knowledge of martial arts and it's associates, I would genuinely like to know what makes you come to this opinion?

Dan

Okay - the main point is that boxers train full contact sparring. In my opinion, people get good at what they practice - someone who practices fighting will become a better fighter, while someone who kicks air and pads, or plays semi-contact tiggy with people is only going to be good at that. Boxers will be used to taking hits and carrying on, are more likely to be physically fit, strong and tough, and will have more of an instinctive feel for how a real fight goes and how to manipulate the situation.

The second reason is that I don't rate the karate stance or many of the techniques as they're taught in many clubs - they don't guard their face at all or know how to drop their chin, which is christmas and birthday rolled into one for a boxer, the long stance is perhaps less of a susceptibility against boxers than styles involving leg kicks or grappling, but it's still not the best idea I've ever heard. The arms are held too far away from the body to catch quick combinations effectively (this is a physical principle that I could explain in person) and though powerful, much of the striking techniques are only really that powerful when at the exact range they're used to - hitting a moving, aggressive target is a different story - especially as boxers naturally prefer a shorter range than the one optimal for karate.

As Cyclone said though, an MMA fighter would be a still better bet than a boxer - this again can be evidenced in UFC videos and so on.

Amen to all that.

I appreciate your opinion Crayfish, thanks. Couple of things though….

boxers shadow box, is this not punching air? & Boxers use pads, as do some karate classes..

‘‘Semi-contact tiggy’’

Sorry but I do not consider using gum shields, gloves, and head guards full contact, neither does it give you “an instinctive feel for how a real fight goes”. Clearly you have not trained in nor watched a traditional karate class, otherwise you would not make such a generalization.

Boxers maybe more physically fit, as in larger in muscular appearance, however this will never match sheer technique in any way, if anything the more muscular biceps etc would slow a fighter down.

“they don't guard their face at all” “The arms are held too far away from the body to catch quick combinations effectively”

incorrect, Karate free style stance (as used in sparring) does guard the face, closely if required, yet always very accurately. As for dropping your chin, there is no need, karate does not advocate getting hit on the side of the head, preferring to block or move, so no need to “drop your chin”

“the long stance is perhaps less of a susceptibility against boxers than styles involving leg kicks or grappling, but it's still not the best idea I've ever heard”

karate stances change depending upon the situation…


“hitting a moving, aggressive target is a different story - especially as boxers naturally prefer a shorter range than the one optimal for karate”

There is no optimum range for karate, just the range that is required from the situation, some much closer than boxers would like, some much further away than boxers would be used to.

Okay - the main point is that boxers train full contact sparring. In my opinion, people get good at what they practice - someone who practices fighting will become a better fighter, while someone who kicks air and pads, or plays semi-contact tiggy with people is only going to be good at that. Boxers will be used to taking hits and carrying on, are more likely to be physically fit, strong and tough, and will have more of an instinctive feel for how a real fight goes and how to manipulate the situation.

The second reason is that I don't rate the karate stance or many of the techniques as they're taught in many clubs - they don't guard their face at all or know how to drop their chin, which is christmas and birthday rolled into one for a boxer, the long stance is perhaps less of a susceptibility against boxers than styles involving leg kicks or grappling, but it's still not the best idea I've ever heard. The arms are held too far away from the body to catch quick combinations effectively (this is a physical principle that I could explain in person) and though powerful, much of the striking techniques are only really that powerful when at the exact range they're used to - hitting a moving, aggressive target is a different story - especially as boxers naturally prefer a shorter range than the one optimal for karate.

As Cyclone said though, an MMA fighter would be a still better bet than a boxer - this again can be evidenced in UFC videos and so on.
Study GOJU-RYU KARATE.DO

Study GOJU-RYU KARATE.DO

indeed, study any real karate do.

I'm with Crayfish on this one, bigtime.

Karate is a good martial art to learn, but is not realistic at all when coming to a real fight where you need effective guarding, punching and evasion.

Being stood in a line, moving one step forward with a punch that comes from the waist (yeah, great guard).. is pretty much asking to get your ass kicked.

By the way, Shadow boxing is warm up.. and barely any boxing gyms spar with headguards. Mouthguards, obviously.

I'm with Crayfish on this one, bigtime.

Karate is a good martial art to learn, but is not realistic at all when coming to a real fight where you need effective guarding, punching and evasion.

Being stood in a line, moving one step forward with a punch that comes from the waist (yeah, great guard).. is pretty much asking to get your ass kicked.

By the way, Shadow boxing is warm up.. and barely any boxing gyms spar with headguards. Mouthguards, obviously.

Karate as it is taught in a lot of clubs needs to evolve. Im with both GazB and Crayfish on this one.
As for the headguards issue, they dont protect your face or chin, just stop you getting cut and marked up. I once turned up for work at a primary school with a massive cut round my left eye and a big shiner under my right eye. The headmistress sent me home as it was considered the "wrong image" that the ethos of the school wanted to portray.

As for gumshields, who wants to lose teeth in training anyway? Get a grip man!

Boxers maybe more physically fit, as in larger in muscular appearance, however this will never match sheer technique in any way, if anything the more muscular biceps etc would slow a fighter down.

incorrect, Karate free style stance (as used in sparring) does guard the face, closely if required, yet always very accurately. As for dropping your chin, there is no need, karate does not advocate getting hit on the side of the head, preferring to block or move, so no need to “drop your chin”


Look at how big Tyson's biceps were, was he slow/sluggish in his prime?
The point being that regardless of how big your muscles are, you can train
to get faster, E.g. Fast-twitch vs. Slow-twitch muscles

You say there is no need to drop your chin in Karate as it does not advocate getting hit on the side of the head. I don't think any system advocates this.
But most are humble/experienced enough to accept that you may not be able to block/move all attacks.

dan_

I'm not trying to cause personal offence here. I have however been to several traditional karate clubs, and trained with a competent karate-ka in an informal setting for around a year, and stand by everything that I said. The long stance in karate is the most commonly used and isn't very practical at all. That and other stances e.g. cat stance etc. seem more intended to look good than be useful and having so many stances just complicates the issue anyway. The best way to develop effective footwork and movement is, after learning a few basics, to spar.

There is most certainly an optimum range for karate, again I can't really demonstrate this through typing but feel free to pop down and train sometime and I'd be glad to show you what I mean (I'm not meaning this as some sort of challenge, I think that trading skills and ideas is a valuable thing, and it might be that you have things that could improve my game too).

As to the not dropping the chin thing... no one can fight and be sure they won't be hit. Better to be sure that hit won't KO you. The idea that weight and strength don't make a difference is characteristic of people who haven't trained full contact / full resistance, and is just delusional. I'm not saying that a skinny guy with excellent technique can't outclass a larger, stronger person with no idea how to fight at all, but while technique makes the most of strength, the ability to put more strength into techniques is obviously advantageous. And a sloppy technique from a steroid fuelled monster will still be more powerful than a perfect technique from a 10 (and a half ;)) stone weakling.

Shadow boxing is as chefkicker says a warm up in boxing, karate does not generally incorporate full contact fighting. The gumshield is a sensible precaution when training and doesn't detract from the realism of the training as it doesn't affect movement or the execution of technique. Same with the headguard - I don't actually wear one but must admit I'm considering getting one, just because I quite like my brain as it is. I consider hitting someone full contact who's wearing a gumshield more realistic than semi contact / points tiggy, which I'm guessing is all that you've trained - feel free to correct me on this. Admittedly boxing gloves aren't the most conducive to realism, I prefer MMA gloves but I'd still rather train boxing/kickboxing than trad. karate (or other traditional styles).

The other aspect that both karate and boxing don't touch on at all, or barely, is grappling and particularly groundwork.

Anyway, we could debate the merits of technique till the cows come home, but the only real test is to step into a ring with them. Karate doesn't perform well in this situation. Come down to AFK kickboxing in town some time and have a spar, I'm down most Fridays (not this one though unfortunately, got some family commitments).

I do feel like I have the experience necessary to comment on this as I've trained at least 7 martial arts for a significant period of time over the last 6 years or so (and got a taste of many, many more). No one art has all the answers, I take a little from everything I've trained - and to be honest karate is the art from which I've abandoned the most. The only thing I still use is the side kick, as pretty much all of the other techniques are impractical or have more effective variants in other arts e.g. muay thai. Don't want to make this sound like I'm any good, I'm under no illusions as to my ability but think that the breadth of different approaches I can draw on gives me an advantage over people with more one-dimensional styles.

no need to for me to add anything regarding why I think boxing is best, it's all been covered.
The most important point though (I think) is the full resistance, full contact sparring, which isn't stopped because someone got hit.
It's closer to reality than any karate sparring i've seen, and mma is closer again than boxing, hence what I said about mma fighters.

I too am not trying to cause offense or argument. my origonal post was a genuine question as to why you though / have the opinon you do. I do agree with you on a nfew things and dissagree on others as would be expected from with two people from different styes.

By the long stance in karate I assume you are referring to front stance, which is not practical at all for sparring, however this is not used for sparing, as I said a much shortened version is used for free style sparring which allows a lot more free movement.

I do agree that no on ecan be sure they wont get hit, but putting focus on blocking attacks to the head does negate the importance or dvantages of learning to fight with your chin / head down.

As for my comments about weight and strength being dilusional and characteristic of someone who has not trained full contact, well full contact no i have not in the sense you are talking, however full speed and power, yes I have, and quite a bit. regarding weight and strength, llll_fb_llll mentions Mike Tysons size and speed, in his prime yes he was impressive, however compare that to some like Sensei Shiro Asano in his prime and there is no contest in speed and power, yet there is in size..

I agree that both karate and boxing lack groundwork and grapling skills, I have tried bjj and it is very very effective, just not my kind of thing at all so did not take it far.
I also agree that no one style has everything, as the above statement shows, some just use alternative approaches to the areas they are deficient to compensate.

However there are much more experienced people on here than me who know a great deal more then me, so I not really in much of a position of authority nor would assume I am, I could be complety off the mark to be fair.

teaching you to keep your chin tucked in is surely just common sense. It's not like it takes a long time or requires that you don't train to use blocks and avoidance as well.
Boxers are extremely good at avoiding being hit, with their footwork and ability to slip a punch through ducking/weaving being exemplary.
Getting in a fight and assuming you can avoid being hit is like going for a swim and assuming you can avoid getting wet.

Im sure i said no one can assume they wont get hit.

I would have liked to have seen a boxr try to land anything on Sensei Shiro Asano, or try to be quick enough to weave out of the way of a strike from him.

Although his kind of skill is something to aspire to, yet i reality would probably not even get close to.

I'd still say it's a little foolish to assume you will be able to block any blow to the head. Boxers also put a lot of focus on blocking blows to the head - but they still keep their chins down. There isn't really a good reason for not doing this, in fact.

Full speed and power sounds like full contact to me, what do you mean by not in the sense that I'm talking?

Most styles are deficient in at least one respect, despite not excelling in any one area I would regard myself a fairly competent all-round fighter just because I can play to people's weaknesses - I'd take a better striker to the floor and know enough grappling so that I could probably defend myself against a better grappler for long enough to land some decent strikes. It seems a more sensible idea to me to prepare for landing in an awkward situation rather than just assuming that it won't happen.

Anyway, as I've said it's quite easy to talk about it and this argument could go round and round, but if you do want to test whether what you know works in a friendly environment with no egos, come down to AFK some time.

Regarding the comments on Tyson vs Asano, we'll never see that but the early UFCs featured some very competent and highly regarded karate-ka, who as far as I am aware consistently lost. Don't know if any of the fights were with boxers, but they might have been. Edit: Can't actually find much web info on this except one site that alleges no karate or taekwondo practitioners have won or lasted more than 3 minutes in the UFC.

And early UFC's also featured some quite competent boxers, who consistently lost as well.

If UFC has taught us anything, it's that a little bit of jack of all trades is required, master of one just means that someone else can change the situation to the point where your skill is useless.

I haven’t got the time to go over the posts properly at the mo.

Crayfish
You say
>I'd still say it's a little foolish to assume you will be able to block any blow to the head<

In what way???
I have in the street???


I have been up against a boxer when I was about 16-17 I couldn’t land a punch :hihi: lol but he soon went down when I kicked him in the B@~~? :gag:Funny I was asked to leave the club but that’s another story

A single example of blocking every attack to the head certainly doesn't mean that you could always do it, or that you should assume you could always do it.

Maybe crayfish should have worded it as foolish to believe that you can block every blow to the head.

If you can though, then you should get in the ufc and win some money.

I'm with Crayfish on this one, bigtime.

Karate is a good martial art to learn, but is not realistic at all when coming to a real fight where you need effective guarding, punching and evasion.

Being stood in a line, moving one step forward with a punch that comes from the waist (yeah, great guard).. is pretty much asking to get your ass kicked.

By the way, Shadow boxing is warm up.. and barely any boxing gyms spar with headguards. Mouthguards, obviously.
I respectfully again advise, study Okinawan Goju-Ryu Karate.Do here's a start for you www.otgka.co.uk and take it from there.

No one is likely to go and learn an alternative martial art just to settle an argument. I'm afraid you have to prove your point with words or accept that it won't be proven.

Dave - blocking every blow against an untrained peon in the street isn't the same as attempting to block every blow of a boxer who's been training for three years - we were arguing whether a boxer of three years training is more or less able than an average karate-ka (from the majority of training styles) of ten years training, all else being equal.

Edit: Just re-read - I did mean every.

Price - I've studied in clubs broadly similar to that one and they are I'm afraid the exact things I'm having a go at. Unless I'm mistaken and your club indulges in full contact sparring, my turning up to a class wouldn't test anything as what we're debating is the relative fighting abilities of practitioners from different styles. This obviously wouldn't be tested by me coming and doing kata and similar violent deeds to the air of your club.

A far better test would be for you to send a student of approximately six years training and somewhere in the region of 67 kg weight and 20 years age down to AFK kickboxing or the 393 club on langsett road and I'll have a friendly MMA session with them during or after the class, if the respective coaches agreed. Which they might not, admittedly, don't know how insurance would view that one.

The styles I have studied have helped me comp and self defence.
Taekwondo is good for kicking- hard kicks too! Good for hapkido locks too.
Kickboxing/Thai is good for conditioning and is great all round stand up martial art it improves hand skills well.
Shotokan was my first style this was hardcore traditional training is good for discipline and my forearms got strong doing blocking drills a good solid style.
I am just getting into grappling styes after 20 years of Ma, and am really enjoying it.
All styles have something good to offer!:banana:
Ps Dave my banana wants to challenge yours!!!

No one is likely to go and learn an alternative martial art just to settle an argument. I'm afraid you have to prove your point with words or accept that it won't be proven.
I'm not argueing ,nor do I want to,cyclone.

would you accept that you were discussing?

argument, discussion, it means the same thing, a point in contention.

Price - I've studied in clubs broadly similar to that one and they are I'm afraid the exact things I'm having a go at. Unless I'm mistaken and your club indulges in full contact sparring, my turning up to a class wouldn't test anything as what we're debating is the relative fighting abilities of practitioners from different styles. This obviously wouldn't be tested by me coming and doing kata and similar violent deeds to the air of your club.

A far better test would be for you to send a student of approximately six years training and somewhere in the region of 67 kg weight and 20 years age down to AFK kickboxing or the 393 club on langsett road and I'll have a friendly MMA session with them during or after the class, if the respective coaches agreed. Which they might not, admittedly, don't know how insurance would view that one.
I'm simply suggesting a way you could fill the gap in your Karate knowledge by delving deeper into Karate. There is no need for veiled challenges or the attempted belittling of something of which you don't have full knowledge. I was trying to help, however, your confidence in your opinions means my attempts are falling on stony ground. Maybe maturity will alter your outlook.As for fighting abilities and effectiveness Goju-Ryu techniques have been taught to The Kremlin Guard and Spetsnaz, by English Instructors. These organisations are not noted for their gentility, so there must be some effective fighting abilities in Goju-Ryu somewhere. AFK? if that's on Wellington St.,then I believe there's a Goju-Ryu club above it, maybe if you visited there and told the man in charge you were investigating fighting techniques or something, I'm sure you'd be made welcome and various techniques could be demonstrated for you (not on you, I hasten to add) Oh well no matter, subject closed. Back to the thread proper.....

Is there an MMA or UFC fighter who's primary background is Goju-ryu? That would give us a better perspective without all having to go and learn whatever style we individually say is good.

I'm simply suggesting a way you could fill the gap in your Karate knowledge by delving deeper into Karate. There is no need for veiled challenges or the attempted belittling of something of which you don't have full knowledge. I was trying to help, however, your confidence in your opinions means my attempts are falling on stony ground. Maybe maturity will alter your outlook.As for fighting abilities and effectiveness Goju-Ryu techniques have been taught to The Kremlin Guard and Spetsnaz, by English Instructors. These organisations are not noted for their gentility, so there must be some effective fighting abilities in Goju-Ryu

he wasn't make a 'veiled' challenge - it was transparent, friendly and respectful bearing in mind his point, and although crayfish may be young (?), his opinions are mature and well-formed, based on his own experience and that of the experience of karate-ka in mma events. They are also opinions that are widely held in mma and rbsd circles, and that neither you nor anyone else currently seems able to refute with any real conviction.

Price - I didn't intend to imply any veiled threats and meant all that I said in a friendly manner. Having a scientific background, that was the only scientific(ish) method I could think of to compare the two styles. Obviously with a sample of one it still wouldn't be conclusive but I don't think that being taught more of something that all the evidence I've seen shows to be not much use would convince me and it's not something that I want to waste my time doing. My opinions on karate are formed from a standpoint of a reasonable depth of knowledge about the training methods most commonly employed and the relative efficacy of the techniques. I don't see any need to fill in the gaps in my knowledge because I don't personally feel they're worth knowing.

As Cyclone mentioned, other proof of Goju-ryu's merit e.g. it's use in MMA competitions might serve to change my mind, but as far as I'm aware karate-ka usually either A: find random excuses not to ever enter anything where they might get hurt or their style discredited, or B: are considerably braver than their peers and go for it, often put up a spirited showing but ultimately lose due to not knowing useful techniques.

I must ask, how much knowledge do you have of other martial arts? You seem very sure that yours is valid but I wonder if this is because you've spent a lot of time being told how good it is without trying other things for yourself. I've spent quite a lot of time going round to different clubs in Sheffield and finding out which ones work for me and karate (tried several shotokan variants, shukokai, 'freestyle') really fell short of what I was looking to get out of a martial art. I'm belittling it not out of indiscriminate bigotry but because out of personal experience, it's just a bit naff.

I know a LOT of people who have trained extensively in karate then given other martial arts a serious go and realised how poorly it really tends to translate into any other combatative situation.

Price - I've studied in clubs broadly similar to that one and they are I'm afraid the exact things I'm having a go at. Unless I'm mistaken and your club indulges in full contact sparring, my turning up to a class wouldn't test anything as what we're debating is the relative fighting abilities of practitioners from different styles. This obviously wouldn't be tested by me coming and doing kata and similar violent deeds to the air of your club.

A far better test would be for you to send a student of approximately six years training and somewhere in the region of 67 kg weight and 20 years age down to AFK kickboxing or the 393 club on langsett road and I'll have a friendly MMA session with them during or after the class, if the respective coaches agreed. Which they might not, admittedly, don't know how insurance would view that one.

Again mr price I second what Crayfish says. I myself would like to have a look at what Okinawan Goju ryu has to offer. Im sure it has a lot to offer but Crayfish has my permission to spar with you under MMA rules in our boxing ring by all means.

Perhaps Goju is a stand up style? Then maybe I can match a few of the guys from Goju up on my next show?
This is not a challenge I dont play games like that, this is a genuine offer with FAIR matching up , i.e. you dont have to fight a kickboxer if you dont feel confident enough to. I can always match you up with a Kung Fu or Taekwondo stylist?

The offers stand and my door remains open
Respect due.
Farhad

Having said 'Amen' to Crayfish earlier on this thread I just want to stick up for him and add a couple of things. Firstly, Crayfish is one of the nicest, respectful young men you could meet (I can say that as I'm over twice his age!). There are certainly no hidden agendas or veiled threats from him. The debate about Karate and reality is a wider one reflected in the Martial arts press by people like Denis Jones and Geoff Thompson (both highly ranked karateka). You can see it in the fashion for bunkai (which while interesting sometimes seems to be stretching imagination to its limits by seeing blocks as locks and takedowns etc), or in the rewriting of Funakosahi's dictum 'there is no first strike in karate' to 'there is no first intention in karate' Quite different don't you think? On the blocks thing: action is faster than reaction and I defy a karateka to block with a traditional block a good jab from a boxer. I have trained in both shotokan and wado ryu and growing up during the troubles in Northern Ireland I got battered using karate to defend myself and I resorted to my boxing, judo, headbutts, pulling hair down onto a knee (my own version of a Thai clinch-it was the era of long hair) and natural cunning! I left karate after being frustrated in a competition fighting a much taller and skilled opponent and I couldn't get near him so I grabbed him and I throw him a couple of times and was disqualified for using: 'kamikaze judo throws'!! I'm a bit down today as I spent five minutes in a ring after BJJ yesterday, I keep thinking about all the training I've done, money I've spent and how little of what I was taught actually works. I have the greatest respect for anyone training and teaching martial arts but please don't claim it works if it doesn't.

Question: why do a lot of people relate Self Defense to MMA or UFC type events???



Devils advocate:twisted: (so don’t shoot me lol)

Just a point on Karate and SD
My first instructor in Karate got attacked (attempted rap) by 3 taxi drivers she put 2 or them in hospital (the other ran off lol)

Question: was she able to defend herself due to her training in Karate or was it all down to some other factor???


Now I know you might be thinking for every one good story there are 100 bad but the question still stands.

That is a good question Dave regarding MMA and SD.
Pub car parks, night clubs and taxi queues are nothing like an octagon..
The last place you would want to be is rolling aroung grappling.
Also in any Combat sport there are rules so street and sport are totally different.
Other factors on the streets are multiple attackers, weapons, dirty tactics ETC ETC.
I think people compare MMA to streets because it has less restrictions on what is allowed....but it still isn't the street.

Simple answer to the question.
In the ring, MMA/UFC are the closest you can get to a fight on the street.
Minimal rules, with the only criteria being one winner through knock out or submission.

The more rules you add, the less like a fight it gets, and so the less like SD it gets.

No one is arguing that training in karate isn't better than no training at all, the question (I guess) is if training in karate is the best use of your time if your only intent is to learn to fight as effectively as possible.

Regarding rolling on the floor when fighting outside the pub, the only way to learn to get up as quickly as possible if you do end up there, is to be capable of fighting there and getting good position quickly.
Pretending that by not training there you will not end up there isn't going to work.

Yes Cyclone I agree thats why I have started doing some grappling styles.
However I have been unlucky enough to have a some street fights and so far my stand up stuff has never failed me(touch wood)! Only one fight went to the ground but I got up quick.
Also in a cage the fighters don't have ten pints first lol:hihi:
I have upmost respect for MMA fighters and I agree that they probaly have some of the best tools for self defence.

The question (I guess) is if training in karate is the best use of your time if your only intent is to learn to fight as effectively as possible.


But the same question could be about any art they all have holes we need to plug but you can’t plug them all.

It’s the sport that surrounds the art of karate that people only see you can say the same for Taekwondo from what I have seen the sport is different from what they teach the military.

Question: How many boxers would stand up against someone that trains in jujutsu on the street or vice versa:?: :?: :?:

Question: who many top fighters/competitors have trained in Karate over the years and did they get nothing out of it:?: :?: :?:

Bruno trained in Karate so why would a top Uk boxer train it:?: :?: :?:

Come to think of it I have seen a top Karate lad from Japan kicking 6 baseball bats tied together and breaking them all. I wouldn’t won’t to tell him that training in karate might not the best use of his time.

I think I like my legs to much lol

Hopefully none as both boxers and jitsuka have more sense than to go and fight on the street. But you never know who it is that decides your head looks like a punching bag after you've had 8 pints.
I suspect that a lot of street violence (this is a personal theory) is precipitated by thugs who get a kick out of it.
As such, they don't go out and drink, or no more than a pint or two, and they pick a target they think they can hurt without getting any pain in return.

Either that, or the fight flairs up from nothing with huge haymakers being thrown around (having watched the saturday night cctv programs).
Training in anything is going to improve your chances of coming out of either scenario better off than before you trained.
But if your intent is to learn to defend yourself in that situation, then you have to learn how best to spend your limited training time.
To be honest, it's probably not spending 10 years on a single style (as i've done) and earning your 1st dan and becoming an instructor.
I think you can get an awful lot out of most styles (with regular) training with a few years (maybe more for your first style...)

As I said earlier though, i train for more reasons than just self defence, and won't kid myself that my style has all the answers. Fortunately i've already done 5 years of tkd (not the type where you can't hit the head), and since then 10 years of traditional jj. Now i'm lucking at a bit of bjj (went 1st time tonight and had a great time, although i am knackered). And if I had the time I love to do a bit of proper boxing training and sparring (not matches, i have no wish to get brain damage), maybe even kickboxing, could get along to chefkickers club/gym sometime maybe... When they introduce an 8th day into the week :D

Waiting for that 8th day here too! Good to see you training tonight, hope you enjoyed it and to see you again.

Yeah it was good fun. I think i'll be back next week, and hopefully for the rest of the summer. Not sure about term time, might be too busy.

Is there ever more actual instruction? It was very much a case of trying to see and copy the people who had better technique, rather than John demonstrating say a few ways of passing guard and a few ways of rolling from guard, then drilling those techniques.

I'm fairly quick to spot what's happening because i've training for so long, but a complete novice would have been lost in that session today and would probably be never seen again.

Hopefully none as both boxers and jitsuka have more sense than to go and fight on the street. But you never know who it is that decides your head looks like a punching bag after you've had 8 pints.
I suspect that a lot of street violence (this is a personal theory) is precipitated by thugs who get a kick out of it.
As such, they don't go out and drink, or no more than a pint or two, and they pick a target they think they can hurt without getting any pain in return.

Either that, or the fight flairs up from nothing with huge haymakers being thrown around (having watched the saturday night cctv programs).
Training in anything is going to improve your chances of coming out of either scenario better off than before you trained.
But if your intent is to learn to defend yourself in that situation, then you have to learn how best to spend your limited training time.
To be honest, it's probably not spending 10 years on a single style (as i've done) and earning your 1st dan and becoming an instructor.
I think you can get an awful lot out of most styles (with regular) training with a few years (maybe more for your first style...)

As I said earlier though, i train for more reasons than just self defence, and won't kid myself that my style has all the answers. Fortunately i've already done 5 years of tkd (not the type where you can't hit the head), and since then 10 years of traditional jj. Now i'm lucking at a bit of bjj (went 1st time tonight and had a great time, although i am knackered). And if I had the time I love to do a bit of proper boxing training and sparring (not matches, i have no wish to get brain damage), maybe even kickboxing, could get along to chefkickers club/gym sometime maybe... When they introduce an 8th day into the week :D

8th Day of the week !!!
ROFLMAO!!!
Really that was a classic, you know youll be more than welcome at AFK cyclone, come down with crayfish if you like or alone, more than welcome anyhow.
Crayfish speaks highly of you by the way, hes a very friendly member of the group and I love the way he visits all the different clubs and gets to know everyone. Brilliant ambassador for martial arts in general.

We do usually do more technique than that as a whole class and when sparring with complete novices, the more experienced partner would generally use that opportunity to run them through some techniques. With you having done a lot before, perhaps the people you were sparring with thought that you'd be okay to jump straight in. You certainly seemed fairly comfortable with doing so and you picked up the few techniques I had a chance to show you quickly.

Sparring can be a good way to learn techniques too though - if someone does something and you'd like to know what it was, don't be afraid to ask them to show it to you - everyone's happy to distribute knowledge, makes them feel important ;)

Thanks Farhad, see you on Friday!

We do usually do more technique than that as a whole class and when sparring with complete novices, the more experienced partner would generally use that opportunity to run them through some techniques. With you having done a lot before, perhaps the people you were sparring with thought that you'd be okay to jump straight in. You certainly seemed fairly comfortable with doing so and you picked up the few techniques I had a chance to show you quickly.

Sparring can be a good way to learn techniques too though - if someone does something and you'd like to know what it was, don't be afraid to ask them to show it to you - everyone's happy to distribute knowledge, makes them feel important ;)

Thanks Farhad, see you on Friday!

Easy Crayfish, bring your MMA mitts! You might need them :P
Do you live on here or something?
Im in my office studying opponents for my september show!

Pretty much :D I don't actually have any MMA mitts except these wierd foam things I found at a carboot, that's another thing on the to buy list for if I ever have any money!

Pretty much :D I don't actually have any MMA mitts except these wierd foam things I found at a carboot, that's another thing on the to buy list for if I ever have any money!

I have some cheap MMA mitts im selling off if you want a pair?

Oh, how much are you wanting?

Oh, how much are you wanting?

Hows about £16 ?
That ok for you mate?

They arent fairtex or evolution mind you but i guess they do the job.

Let me know if the price is ok.

Could you bring them down on Friday for me to have a look at them?

Could you bring them down on Friday for me to have a look at them?

Sure thing see you friday

Nice one mate, seeya then!

Reviving this thread cus i think it was interesting :hihi:

i have always trained in relation to what i regard as holistic self-development. i try to ensure that i am active socially, spiritually, intellectually, emotionally and physically, and i that i try to develop all those areas of my life (along with others!). if i'm going to challenge and develop myself physically i'd rather do something that has as much benefit as possible. so for example, if was to play football i would get fitter and become a better player, but if i train in martial arts i can not only get fitter, but also challenge myself mentally and acquire some self-defence skills, which unlike football skills, may be of use in other areas of my life.

yes, we could all get shot or stabbed, but most encounters (or at least the majority of those i've been involved in) are devoid of any weaponry, and so hand-to-hand self-defence skills can prove valuable. i'm not suggesting for one minute that people shouldn't train in weapons skills, in fact it's something that i'd be interested in doing (i saw a quote from an old time brawler recently and he recommended training in boxing and wrestling for one-to-one encounters, and single stick if there's more than one - it was along time go though!).

i also heard frank shamrock describe a couple of street encounters - in one of which he had a knife pulled on him - and in reference to these encounters frank said he did what any good fighter should do - he ran.

i think martial arts and combat training can provide self-defence skills, hence why the likes of geoff thompson, peter consterdine, jamie o'keefe, dave briggs, etc. all train regularly and are heavily involved in RBSD - all hard, hard, men with bags of experience on the street.

depending on the club it can also be great fun and a place to meet new and interesting people, so for me it means being socially active, mentally active, and learning potentially useful skills, as well as providing spiritual development in that i have to confront my fears and constantly motivate myself. whenever things are not going well for me on other fronts i almost always end up missing training, but it's something i go back to time and time again.

Great post anvil! Think you've hit the nail on the head - self defence is a skill that you obtain from training martial arts but it is only one of the many things that you can gain from training - ultimately you are developing as a person.

'It especially intrigues me that the most effective arts (if we can trust cage fights as a measure of effectiveness) are the least popular for the average joe who might get picked on by muggers, bullies etc. Gyms that require heavy sparring tend to be 'survival of the fittest', picking off those who can't take the pressure in the first lesson, who then flock to less pressured but perhaps less effective arts.'

I posted the above ageeeeeeeeees ago, anyone care to agree/disagree?

i think it's a good thread/question - i saw it ages ago but wanted to think about my answer!