View Full Version : Church leaders telling us who to vote for!


Hadron
12-05-2004, 11:36
Just seen in the Star about a coalition to vote against a political party, namely BNP. Who do the religous parties think they are to tell us who to vote for politically.

Its religion that gets us in a mess in the first place.

boyface
12-05-2004, 11:39
this was on look north a few weeks back....as you rightly say I dont think the church should tell us who to vote for, but I support anyone opposing the BNP in anyway

Moon Maiden
12-05-2004, 11:40
The religious parties are just doing exactly the same as everyone else. Telling us who to vote for.

You seem amazed it should be any different?

Moon

A.B.Yaffle
12-05-2004, 11:59
I don't see anything wrong with any group of people stating who they think would be the best party to vote for... like people have been doing on this very forum! I don't think the churches are going to try to force anyone to vote for any political party.

Cyclone
12-05-2004, 12:00
we should form a sheffieldForum coalition with the purpose of telling people not to vote for the BNP.

asdasdasd
12-05-2004, 12:01
Do you not think the BNP are a special case? I'd be more worried if religious groups said nothing about the far right. The Catholic church still blushes when it recalls it's silence about the Nazis and Hitler.

As we're on about the BNP... I got a BNP leaflet through my door the other day (the first I've ever seen). I took it to the pub to show my mate and he was freaked out that I was even carrying it about with me.

boyface
12-05-2004, 12:03
Originally posted by kevy999
this was on look north a few weeks back....as you rightly say I dont think the church should tell us who to vote for, but I support anyone opposing the BNP in anyway

actually...I'll revise this comment...of course they can say who they think we should vote for...its called supporting a political party...but in any case, I dont think this is what they've done...all they have doen is oppose the BNP...and I'm sure people of the church vote for differant political parties....they have just decided to unite against a far right party, which the majority of this country also does, even if not an organised group.

Hadron
12-05-2004, 12:15
I think its just undemocratic for you all to say that I should not vote any any particular party. I should be able to decide who to vote for by assessing them myself without someone being over my shoulder saying "ooh dont vote for them".

I WILL AND EVERYONE SHOULD MAKE UP THEIR OWN MIND!!

Let all the Sheffield parties be heard.

A.B.Yaffle
12-05-2004, 12:18
Originally posted by Hadron
I think its just undemocratic for you all to say that I should not vote any any particular party. I should be able to decide who to vote for by assessing them myself without someone being over my shoulder saying "ooh dont vote for them".

I WILL AND EVERYONE SHOULD MAKE UP THEIR OWN MIND!!

Let all the Sheffield parties be heard.

I think it is just undemocratic for you to say that other people are not allowed to voice their views on the different parties. Nobody is forcing you to not vote for the BNP or any other party if that's what you wish to do.

boyface
12-05-2004, 12:19
they will be heard....they are entitled to be heard, just as anyone is entitled to oppose them...and equally people are entitled to make up their own mind based on the info they have...its called a party campaign.

I openly oppose the BNP, is this worng?

asdasdasd
12-05-2004, 12:22
Originally posted by Hadron
I should be able to decide who to vote for by assessing them myself without someone being over my shoulder saying "ooh dont vote for them".

You don't have to take any notice of people, but surely part of the democratic process is being allowed to express opinions on parties, and to campaign for or against them as loudly and obtrusively as you see fit.

BTW - Don't vote for them.

Mo
12-05-2004, 12:24
Originally posted by Hadron
I think its just undemocratic for you all to say that I should not vote any any particular party. I should be able to decide who to vote for by assessing them myself without someone being over my shoulder saying "ooh dont vote for them".

I WILL AND EVERYONE SHOULD MAKE UP THEIR OWN MIND!!

Let all the Sheffield parties be heard.

I agree completely Hadron as I have argued many times on here. I am grown up enough to be able to look at whats on offer and make my choice accordingly.

I can't help but be cynical when I see this all party opposition to the BNP. Could it be that what unites all the established parties is that they ALL stand to lose votes to the BNP.

boyface
12-05-2004, 12:26
Originally posted by Mo
I agree completely Hadron as I have argued many times on here. I am grown up enough to be able to look at whats on offer and make my choice accordingly.

I can't help but be cynical when I see this all party opposition to the BNP. Could it be that what unites all the established parties is that they ALL stand to lose votes to the BNP.

I dont think this is true, but even if it is, anything that unites people against the BNP is good in my eyes

Mo
12-05-2004, 12:45
Originally posted by boyface
I dont think this is true, but even if it is, anything that unites people against the BNP is good in my eyes


The BNP gets many many votes from ex Labour voters. That is supprters who have consistantly voted Labour all their lives.

The traditional conservative vote could easily go to the BNP I would think. These are people are to the far right of the Con party and are very disgruntled with the modernising going on within the party.

What does that leave me with? Ah yes that soggy bunch in the middle who can't quite make up their mind where their home is, often composed of disgruntled members/supporters of the other 2 parties. Could easily switch their committment for athird time.

Rusted Root
12-05-2004, 12:46
What do you guys think will happen if the BNP gets in power anyway?
I would think that maybe it will cause an increase in racial harassment and may lead to a civil war. (The worse possible case I think).

boyface
12-05-2004, 12:51
Originally posted by Mo
The BNP gets many many votes from ex Labour voters. That is supprters who have consistantly voted Labour all their lives.



as do the lib dems...whats your point here?

Mo
12-05-2004, 12:59
Originally posted by boyface
I dont think this is true, but even if it is, anything that unites people against the BNP is good in my eyes

This is the point. Here you deny that they don't get their support from all the mainstream parties, when clearly they do.

boyface
12-05-2004, 13:01
Originally posted by Mo
This is the point. Here you deny that they don't get their support from all the mainstream parties, when clearly they do.

Your making the assumption that if anybody stops voting labour/conservative they vote BNP....and all I said was I didnt think this was true. I havnt seen any figures to back this up that's all.

If you supply some I'll gladly look.

Mo
12-05-2004, 13:18
As I said in my original post boyface one of the things uniting all the main parties is that they all stand to lose votes to the BNP. Therefore it is in their own interests to rubbish it.

You have acknowledged this to be the case so what is the argument for???

Tony
12-05-2004, 13:19
Originally posted by Hadron
Just seen in the Star about a coalition to vote against a political party, namely BNP. Who do the religous parties think they are to tell us who to vote for politically.

Its religion that gets us in a mess in the first place.

Hehe, you're trolling surely!

The religious parties (!?) think that they are people with a social conscience - unlike the fascist BNP who have no sort of conscience whatsoever!. :thumbsup:

boyface
12-05-2004, 13:23
Originally posted by Mo
As I said in my original post boyface one of the things uniting all the main parties is that they all stand to lose votes to the BNP. Therefore it is in their own interests to rubbish it.

You have acknowledged this to be the case so what is the argument for???

Im not sure where I acknowledged this?

And all I said was I didnt think it was true...but if it was I think anything that unites people against the BNP is good...and about 3 posts later I still do.

Im guessing you couldnt find any figures?

Mo
12-05-2004, 13:33
Originally posted by boyface
Im not sure where I acknowledged this?

And all I said was I didnt think it was true...but if it was I think anything that unites people against the BNP is good...and about 3 posts later I still do.

Im guessing you couldnt find any figures?


Oh no you aren't another one of those 'you need to provide a list of facts and figures to have a valid opinion' merchants are you?

I read newspapers, I watch the news, I speak to people all the time about what is going on in society. It is quite possible to have an opinion you know without being a statistics grad. Thats all it is, an opinion, one which you seem to have a nit picking problem with.

Mo
12-05-2004, 13:36
Originally posted by Rusted Root
What do you guys think will happen if the BNP gets in power anyway?
I would think that maybe it will cause an increase in racial harassment and may lead to a civil war. (The worse possible case I think).

They won't get into overall power. They are only fielding 5 candidates in Sheffield.

boyface
12-05-2004, 13:37
Originally posted by Mo
Oh no you aren't another one of those 'you need to provide a list of facts and figures to have a valid opinion' merchants are you?

I read newspapers, I watch the news, I speak to people all the time about what is going on in society. It is quite possible to have an opinion you know without being a statistics grad. Thats all it is, an opinion, one which you seem to have a nit picking problem with.

To clarify finally, I dont have a probelm with stats at all....I just said I didnt think what you said was true,...it was you who then went off on one about that. Im bound to respond arnt I?

The popularity of the far right goes in ebs and flows from its high points in the 40s and 70s to lower points in the 90s. Its the nature of politics.

I guess we leave this as disagreeing and stop boring everybody.

Hadron
12-05-2004, 13:58
Sheffield Star http://www.sheffieldtoday.net/ViewArticle.aspx?SectionID=58&ArticleID=789373

Sheffield Coalition Against Racism condemned the BNP and asked voters to snub them. The coalition has the support of the Bishop of Sheffield Jack Nicholls and boxing celebrities, Brendan Ingle and his champion Johnny Nelson.

Since when did boxers become moral leaders, then?
Sorry wont follow no sheep thats had its brains knocked out.

Tony
12-05-2004, 14:15
Originally posted by Hadron
Sheffield Star http://www.sheffieldtoday.net/ViewArticle.aspx?SectionID=58&ArticleID=789373

Sheffield Coalition Against Racism condemned the BNP and asked voters to snub them. The coalition has the support of the Bishop of Sheffield Jack Nicholls and boxing celebrities, Brendan Ingle and his champion Johnny Nelson.

Since when did boxers become moral leaders, then?
Sorry wont follow no sheep thats had its brains knocked out.
I think you will find that boxers do their fighting in the ring - not in the street like various BNP leaders who have been convicted of voilent crime.

Cyclone
12-05-2004, 14:29
I'm puzzled by the bizarre arguments being fielded in here.

Anyone is entitled to an opinion, that includes boxers and church officials.
I'm really not sure why you are upset about them expressing themselves. The only reason I can think of is that you intend to vote BNP yourself and that you dislike any negative publicity directed towards them (as if they needed anymore).

Mo, Your entitled to an opinion, but my personal opinion is that very few people have or will change from a majority party to an extremist group like the BNP. Of course without statistics neither of us can prove our opinion and so it remains just that.

Possibly one other thing uniting all the main political parties, boxers and church leaders is that they find the policies and aims of the BNP to be deeply offensive and diversive.
As do most people with an iq greater than their shoe size or any sort of morality or social conscience.

Hadron
12-05-2004, 15:04
Thanks cyclone. To assume makes an ASS of U and ME. I like to see the under dog have a fair chance like at the World Snooker and Sheffield Wednesday.

I take it then that the whole of Walkey has a IQ of less than 11.

Cyclone
12-05-2004, 15:12
it's lucky I didn't assume anything then isn't it.

The BNP are not some plucky underdog party. They are party based on exploiting the worse side of human nature and expound a racists and bigotted point of view.

I still don't understand your objection to people expressing their opinion. Would you be objecting if someone had suggested that people did vote for the BNP rather than not. Or would it be objectional if a boxer had said that he supported labour and people shouldn't vote for the conservatives?

I couldn't speak for the whole of Walkley, and I doubt that they all voted the same anyway. Since I live in walkley and won't be voting for the BNP I think I can safely say that no, the whole of Walkley does not have an IQ of 11.

Sam Miguel
12-05-2004, 15:18
Originally posted by Patchy
I don't see anything wrong with any group of people stating who they think would be the best party to vote for... like people have been doing on this very forum! I don't think the churches are going to try to force anyone to vote for any political party.

I totally agree. If the church want to tell us who to vote for, fair enough, let them do it. They are wasting their breath with me, but if that's what they want to do, then as far as I'm concerned that's OK.

If a little furry sky-blue rodent with wheels instead of legs wants to express its political preferences, then let it be.

max
12-05-2004, 15:27
Originally posted by Hadron
Thanks cyclone. To assume makes an ASS of U and ME. I like to see the under dog have a fair chance like at the World Snooker and Sheffield Wednesday.

I take it then that the whole of Walkey has a IQ of less than 11.

Without wishing to make any further asses of anyone does that mean you won't be voting bnp?

As to the IQ of Walkley, is that 11 a total or an average?

Hadron
12-05-2004, 15:46
I assume that was a direct question so i'll answer that one.

I'll be voting for the party which I think will represent greater harmony amongst Britains, law that is up to date, cleaner living, safer streets and helps britain to prosper.

It will probably not be BNP who I vote for but I still want to hear what they say when they want to say it, without any noise or jeers.

Ned Ludd
12-05-2004, 15:49
As an atheist I see no problem with the church expressing a view as they are after all supposed to give moral guidance.
I suspect many persons who have taken offence may be sympathisers of the BNP.

Several people I know have expressed an intention to vote BNP. I find this worrying as I don't consider any of them to be out and out racists. I think it's symptomatic of a system geared to winning the floating votes in marginal seats, leaving millions feeling that they are not being properly represented or their views taken into account. The major parties (Labour in particular) have left millions of people in places like Burnley feeling neglected (which they probably are) and it's no good them wringing their hands over an upswing of support for the BNP in these circumstances. It's this alienation of people from mainstream politics that's the problem and our politicians have a huge job on their hands trying to re-engage them.

Geoff
12-05-2004, 16:55
Please note
A post has been removed from this thread as it was made by someone who was previously banned and decided to re-register under a new name. The user in question was invited to e-mail us but decided instead to ignore our requests. If banned users want a second chance then they should e-mail us - as opposed to re-registering and pretending to be someone else!

Herbaliser
12-05-2004, 17:31
As for the IQ of Walkley, it's got to be more than 11. My IQ is 10, so I reckon the rest of the locals can manage 1 more point between them. Maybe.

Herbaliser
12-05-2004, 17:35
Originally posted by Hadron

Its religion that gets us in a mess in the first place.

Wanna expand on that?

(Just interested BTW. I'm not religious and have no personal vendetta, but IMO, blaming things on religion (itself, rather than just the label 'religion') often indicates an element of misunderstanding of what the world's major religions are all about. Fire away...)

Mo
12-05-2004, 18:27
Originally posted by Cyclone
.


Mo, Your entitled to an opinion, but my personal opinion is that very few people have or will change from a majority party to an extremist group like the BNP. Of course without statistics neither of us can prove our opinion and so it remains just that.
.

All I know is that being from a solid Labour area I am taken aback by the number of peole who say that if a BNP candidate put up they would woud for them. These aren't thuggish louts looking for trouble but ordinary hardworking folks. You draw your own conclusions from it.

Where do you think the BNP gets its votes from if it's not from mainstream parties? You can only assume that they are normally people who don't bother to vote. I will look at the voting figures for Burnley.

bellis
12-05-2004, 18:32
thank heavens its a postal vote this year i wasnt looking forward to telling a group of bullies telling me who to vote for to f off
:loopy: :loopy: :loopy:

Mo
12-05-2004, 18:50
It's not easy to make a direct comparison with Burnley's results 2002 and 2003 as it seems that all three seats in each ward were up for grabs in 2002 but only one in 2003.

Overall the BNP vote fell in 2003 but they were elected in many wards because it seems the Labour vote didn't turn out.

I think that this tells you that the Labour voters were unhappy don't you? Same difference in the end.

disc0tech
12-05-2004, 21:52
I am pretty fundementally athiest. I do value the moral standpoint of religious institutions and I think they are right to state a political opinion.

For instance, one of the archbishops made some fairly condemning statements about the war on iraq, as did many other organisations. However, it would be inappropriate for them to suggest that their followers should not make up their own mind rather than blindly follow what they are told... like BNP supporters do with the tabloids...

... ok so that's a bit unfair. Nevertheless, I do think that the BNP is fundementally undemocratic. Democracy is about accurately reflecting the opinions of the majority of the population. The BNP stands for (however implicitly) dividing the population and excluding minorities.

I don't think that the BNP should be prevented from standing for political office, as they have the right to both free speech and due process - plus, I have faith in humanity, and particularly the people of sheffield not to succumb to anti-asylum seeker, anti-migrant, anti-anyone who isn't from walkley mentality.

Sorry for ranting.

Cyclone
12-05-2004, 23:44
Originally posted by Mo
It's not easy to make a direct comparison with Burnley's results 2002 and 2003 as it seems that all three seats in each ward were up for grabs in 2002 but only one in 2003.

Overall the BNP vote fell in 2003 but they were elected in many wards because it seems the Labour vote didn't turn out.

I think that this tells you that the Labour voters were unhappy don't you? Same difference in the end.

No, it tells you that the labour voters assumed that labour would win anyway, and so didn't vote.

mojoworking
13-05-2004, 01:09
Under the Westminster system of government, doesn't the separation of powers act preclude the church and the judiciary from involving itself in politics. That's the theory, anyway.

Moon Maiden
13-05-2004, 08:29
Hadron I am finding your posts absolutely hilarious, you sound like a stroppy teenager who parents have just told them they cannot go out! ROFLMAO.

Just because all these people are telling folk they shouldn't vote for this and vote for that, do you think EVERYONE is going to listen?
Whilst there are many opinions held on this forum about people believing everything they here and read, I would like to think (here comes my own naieve bit) that most people who post here are well in control of their faculties and are capable are making up their own minds based on their own credo and personal circumstances.

So really the Arch Bishop of Cantebury could get up and tell all good people to vote for a nazi party and it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference to their decision other than to have the guy sectioned.

The church leaders can prattle on about what they wish, I will vote for the party I think can make less of a mess of this country than the others.

Moon Maiden

commie pig
13-05-2004, 09:23
Originally posted by Mo
All I know is that being from a solid Labour area I am taken aback by the number of peole who say that if a BNP candidate put up they would woud for them. These aren't thuggish louts looking for trouble but ordinary hardworking folks. You draw your own conclusions from it.

Where do you think the BNP gets its votes from if it's not from mainstream parties? You can only assume that they are normally people who don't bother to vote. I will look at the voting figures for Burnley.
according to a poll from the (fairly reliable) Joseph Rowntree Trust - 25% of BNP voters are formerly Labour, another poll (probably the same one in fact but results given at a different time for some reason) said a third of them were young workinbg-class males who didn't previously vote (but who would probably have been 'the type' to vote Labour in the past). That leaves a hell of a lot of ex-tories (and a few lib-dems, like the woman standing in Rotherham) out there. The BNP are making headway by lying about there politics and because of the total and utter failure of the mainstream parties to really have anything to offer most voters - especially the poor and alienated on estates that have been lef tto run down for years. When all the parties unite in favour of privatisation and cuts, it's hardly surproising that people look for a supposedly 'radical' alternative.

oh, and i agree that whatever the bishop of sheff says will make vrey very little difference, might just gget one or two more people out to vote against them, but thats it, hardly challenging the reasons why people consider voting BNP is it - and as the thread starter implied, giving them that air of 'the party everyone loves to hate' doesnt really seem to do them much harm!

Disco_Cat
13-05-2004, 15:41
One important point to consider is that the BNP vanguard are very keen to see this country plunged into a civil war between the races, they want to portray the BNP as the party of choice for white, British Christians defending their country and religion from Islam, and so the BNP constantly refer to Christianity and their belief in it and it's values.

I think itís excellent the Churches have acted like this making it clear that fascism is incompatible with Christianity, I only wish they had acted the same against Mussolini and Hitler.