The recent beheading of Nick Berg seems to have been received with less horror in the West than "military" killings by the coalition forces.

Forgetting numbers (all the killings are equally horrific) but surely the chanting of Allah while carrying out the act is something that the majority of muslims are be disgusted at?

Are the extremists winning the mind war?

I would like to know the thoughts of Muslim contributers of Sheffield Forum to this one.

My own personal feelings are, what the soldiers did was disgraceful. What the extremists have done is disgraceful.

However we cannot just up roots and pull out our soldiers now cos Iraq is in no fit state to govern itself. It needs a government in place and fully working system. I don't think it will achieve this any time soon without the help of the UN.

It's a difficult one.

I reckon if the yanks pulled out of visable efforts and just provided financial and behind the scenes support. Then we could ask the UN to step in and provide a more neutral force to keep the peace and help rebuild a stable Iraq.

the quick answer is yes,and they will as long as we let people like Pierce Morgan get away with publishing unverified pictures just to inflate the profits of the Mirror group.If and when they are found to be fake he should be charged with incitment to murder because our lads out there are having it bad enough without some pratt at home stabbing them in the back. Before anyone has a go at me I am not condoning the behaviour of the tiny minority of soldiers who give the arab world the chance to paint us all black, but let's not lose sight of the fact that there is less torture going on now than there was under Saddam.....rant over

Originally posted by DaBouncer
I would like to know the thoughts of Muslim contributers of Sheffield Forum to this one.

Why? Surely any sane person would agree that it's disgraceful.

I would be interested Sidla. I think I'm putting out a mixed message because I'm confused about how we ended up here.

My motivation for creating the thread was that I've actually seen the video of the execution, and it was as graphic as cutting off the head of a live person with a knife can be. I've also seen the Daniel Pearle video too.

They are amazingly horrific, but we don't see it in our media, so nobody understands truly. However, we see plenty of pictures of hundreds of dead Iraqi's.

I think the extremists know this and are exploiting it tremendously well.

Originally posted by Sidla
Why? Surely any sane person would agree that it's disgraceful.
Yes that is very true.
However I would like to know what they make of it.

After all the extremists target what they are doing at those who are NOT muslims.

So what I'm wanting to know how that makes them feel knowing that extremists use the name of Islam, Allah and the Muslif faith for their own bidding.

Originally posted by Tony
The recent beheading of Nick Berg seems to have been received with less horror in the West than "military" killings by the coalition forces.
I think it's early days as far as this is concerned and it will have an increased impact over the next few weeks. It will be used by the US to justify the unjustifiable. The manner of the killing is horrific but probably was mercifully quick.
Originally posted by Tony
Forgetting numbers (all the killings are equally horrific) but surely the chanting of Allah while carrying out the act is something that the majority of muslims are be disgusted at?. Beheading is unfortunately a common method of execution in parts of the Middle East not least in Saudi Arabia, America's long term Arab ally. It's not as horrific to them as us, I suspect.
It was Bush that originally termed this as a Crusade and that's how most Arabs see all this (as I do myself). I understand that The Koran approves of the killing of enemies who attack you. I can therefore see why they may have been calling on Allah and that this may not be just the view of extremists. Personally, I have no time for any religious extremist whether in Baghad, Houston or Tel Aviv but the unfortunate Mr Berg was there to show his support for the war and to look for a way of making money out of it. He shouldn't have been there has to be the bottom line.
It seems the US authorities refused a prisoner exchange some time ago, so they bear some responsibility for this situation.

Originally posted by Tony
Are the extremists winning the mind war?
Yes they are. But I'd include The US forces in my definition of extremists and let's not forget that there was no Al-Quaeda, who appear to have executed Nick Berg, in Sadaam Hussein's Iraq, before the invasion.
All Iraqis who take up arms can't be labelled as extremists when they are fighting occupying forces who have little regard for the value of human life, decency or the Geneva Convention.
I'm not sure where to draw the line between a resistance fighter and an extremist myself.
Some of the resistance will no doubt engage in further atrocities but at least they aren't claiming to defend freedom, democracy whilst putting the jackboot in.
Unfortunately we can expect more of the same as it is now coming to light that Americans are raping and sexually abusing women detainees. One such has apparently givem birth but has "disappeared". If the locals overcome their reluctance to even talk about such things and the knowledge becomes widespread we can expect the cycle of violence to increase further.
I feel for Nick Bergs parents but he had no right or reason to be in Iraq at all.

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
I think it's early days as far as this is concerned and it will have an increased impact over the next few weeks. It will be used by the US to justify the unjustifiable. The manner of the killing is horrific but probably was mercifully quick.
You're probably right. It will be interesting to see how the other Arab Nations react to these acts.

Surely the ordinary muslim nation will condemn it. Will they work to improve matters? If ever the UN was needed, it's now.

The killing... well the video is just over a minute long. Maybe 30/40 seconds in answer to your thought. Not sure if that counts as quick with a knife. This was no execution by sword. :cry:

Originally posted by DaBouncer
Yes that is very true.
However I would like to know what they make of it.

After all the extremists target what they are doing at those who are NOT muslims.

So what I'm wanting to know how that makes them feel knowing that extremists use the name of Islam, Allah and the Muslif faith for their own bidding.
Well I can answer that on behalf of Muslims in my capacity as a theologian.

I'm sickened that anyone could believe that the beheading of an innocent person would be right in the name of God or indeed, Allah. There is certainly nothing in the Koran that condones the murder and torture of innocent people.

It doesn't really matter if this is targeted at non-muslims or not, there is nothing in the Koran that orders all Muslims to murder anyone who does not follow Mohammed.

Anyway, what would you expect any muslim to say? That they're glad extremists are murdering innocent people?

Originally posted by owdlad
the quick answer is yes,and they will as long as we let people like Pierce Morgan get away with publishing unverified pictures just to inflate the profits of the Mirror group.If and when they are found to be fake he should be charged with incitment to murder because our lads out there are having it bad enough without some pratt at home stabbing them in the back. Before anyone has a go at me I am not condoning the behaviour of the tiny minority of soldiers who give the arab world the chance to paint us all black, but let's not lose sight of the fact that there is less torture going on now than there was under Saddam.....rant over
At worst the pictures seem to be re-enactments. Has Colin Powell resigned for showing fabricated pictures at the UN? ie "this is a mobile chemical weapons manufacturing unit" "this plant manufactures biological agents" etc
Has Blair resigned for using forged documents about Sadaam buying Uranium to justify war and invasion?
Compared to the outright lies knowingly told by politicians and promoted by the media so far, this pales into insignificance. It seems that the events depicted happened and if two soldiers who gave the Mirror the picture's assured the paper they were genuine who's fault is that?
Incitement to murder? An 8 year old girl shot dead on the street, a man shot dead in his own house, a man's kneck broken by stamping as he was lying on his stomach and numerous others. These are real events committed by out lads and I think they may be sufficient to incite "murder" without the help of The Mirror.
We don't kill and torture as many people as Sadaam? Oh, I forgot, it must be OK then.

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
At worst the pictures seem to be re-enactments. Has Colin Powell resigned for showing fabricated pictures at the UN? ie "this is a mobile chemical weapons manufacturing unit" "this plant manufactures biological agents" etc
Has Blair resigned for using forged documents about Sadaam buying Uranium to justify war and invasion?
Compared to the outright lies knowingly told by politicians and promoted by the media so far, this pales into insignificance. It seems that the events depicted happened and if two soldiers who gave the Mirror the picture's assured the paper they were genuine who's fault is that?
Incitement to murder? An 8 year old girl shot dead on the street, a man shot dead in his own house, a man's kneck broken by stamping as he was lying on his stomach and numerous others. These are real events committed by out lads and I think they may be sufficient to incite "murder" without the help of The Mirror.
We don't kill and torture as many people as Sadaam? Oh, I forgot, it must be OK then.

Get off your high horse Ned. You're starting to sound like a rabid extremist yourself.

Originally posted by Sidla
Anyway, what would you expect any muslim to say? That they're glad extremists are murdering innocent people?
People want to hear the exact opposite, of course. That's the point. They want to hear it. They want reassurance.

People want to be reassured that it is only a tiny minority of extremists that think like this. They want to be reassured that support for extremism isn't growing. They want to be reassured that the muslims they live alongside are not their enemy and deplore terrorist acts as much as they do.

It might be obvious but that doesn't mean you don't want to hear it. It's like telling your woman you love her - if you want the relationship to last you need to do it!

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
I think it's early days as far as this is concerned and it will have an increased impact over the next few weeks. It will be used by the US to justify the unjustifiable. The manner of the killing is horrific but probably was mercifully quick.
Beheading is unfortunately a common method of execution in parts of the Middle East not least in Saudi Arabia, America's long term Arab ally. It's not as horrific to them as us, I suspect.
It was Bush that originally termed this as a Crusade and that's how most Arabs see all this (as I do myself). I understand that The Koran approves of the killing of enemies who attack you. I can therefore see why they may have been calling on Allah and that this may not be just the view of extremists. Personally, I have no time for any religious extremist whether in Baghad, Houston or Tel Aviv but the unfortunate Mr Berg was there to show his support for the war and to look for a way of making money out of it. He shouldn't have been there has to be the bottom line.
It seems the US authorities refused a prisoner exchange some time ago, so they bear some responsibility for this situation.


Yes they are. But I'd include The US forces in my definition of extremists and let's not forget that there was no Al-Quaeda, who appear to have executed Nick Berg, in Sadaam Hussein's Iraq, before the invasion.
All Iraqis who take up arms can't be labelled as extremists when they are fighting occupying forces who have little regard for the value of human life, decency or the Geneva Convention.
I'm not sure where to draw the line between a resistance fighter and an extremist myself.
Some of the resistance will no doubt engage in further atrocities but at least they aren't claiming to defend freedom, democracy whilst putting the jackboot in.
Unfortunately we can expect more of the same as it is now coming to light that Americans are raping and sexually abusing women detainees. One such has apparently givem birth but has "disappeared". If the locals overcome their reluctance to even talk about such things and the knowledge becomes widespread we can expect the cycle of violence to increase further.
I feel for Nick Bergs parents but he had no right or reason to be in Iraq at all.

I am curious as to how you came to the conclusion that he had no right or reason to be there???
Given he was there working to help rebuild communication antennas..seems like a good reason to me..as for right. How do you earn the right to visit another country????
I'm quite sure he didn't turn up with his bermuda shorts on and a bucket of spade thinking "mmm...sand, hot weather..lets take a holiday in Iraq"

Originally posted by mojoworking
Get off your high horse Ned. You're starting to sound like a rabid extremist yourself.

I can't see how promoting the facts makes me an extremist. The facts are in the public domain for scrutiny by all who can be bothered to look. I call going to war for no good reason extreme and if I'm on my high horse it's because of that and the disgusting hypocrisy that's gone with it.

Originally posted by wibbles
I am curious as to how you came to the conclusion that he had no right or reason to be there???

The invasion is illegal, the occupation is illegal, the flouting of the Geneva convention is illegal and the sale of Iraqi national assets are all illegal.
Mr Berg wasn't fullfilling a contract with an independent Iraqi government or contractor and therefore was party to the above. Who invited him?
There's millions of highly educated and skilled Iraqis with no work.....give the re-building work to them.
I fear Mr Berg was a misguided man who suffered a particularly brutal and horrific end for making the wrong decision

Unfortunately extremists will always win the war for at least some hearts and minds. Extremism in whatever flavour is a very seductive state of mind as it allows you to be right without having to bother about other peoples point of view - you are right so anyone who disagrees must be wrong. Whether your extremism manifests as "rightfully avenging the brothers and sisters of your religion who have been abused by non believers" or "liberating a country from their evil tyrant and removing their threat from the region" is in many ways immaterial as the net effect is much the same - i.e. your opposing set of extrmists feel your actions validate their own. If you take a step back you can see that both sides are behaving in equally sickening and amoral ways - however extremists by their nature can't do this and so only perpetuate a cycle of violence and antipathy. Whats the answer? I wish I knew but untill people have some empathy (interestingly enough something uniforms are used to remove) and are prepared to think about what they are doing extremists will always be with us.

Well said evildrneil.
I'm afraid the situation is much like a forest fire that will have to burn itself out now rather than be put out.

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
I can't see how promoting the facts makes me an extremist. The facts are in the public domain for scrutiny by all who can be bothered to look. I call going to war for no good reason extreme and if I'm on my high horse it's because of that and the disgusting hypocrisy that's gone with it.

You're coming across as an extremist because there is no balance to your argument. It's black and white. USA: Bad, Iraq: Good.

It's just not as simple as that.

You're also excusing the horrific beheading of a civilian in the most offhand terms (go back and read what you've written).

Its terrible to see this ecalation of violence. Scenes like this will carry on until the Iraqi people feel that they are in control of their own future.

Give them the control they want to rebuild their communities. We have lots of Iraqi citizens in the UK that have been working and been educated here. Send them all back to Iraq to help rebuild the country.

Im sure they will have a positive influence back in their local communities.

Originally posted by mojoworking
You're coming across as an extremist because there is no balance to your argument. It's black and white. USA: Bad, Iraq: Good.
It's just not as simple as that.
The US and UK shouldn't be there. It's that simple. All atrocities come as a direct result of the occupation.

Originally posted by mojoworking
You're also excusing the horrific beheading of a civilian in the most offhand terms (go back and read what you've written). . I've read it, I seem to mention it as being brutal and horrific. Nobody deserves his fate. This war crime is inexcusable and not least because it was done in cold blood and even worse because it was filmed, something which I find particularly disgusting. I also repeat that I really feel for his parents.
However Mr. Berg put himself in danger out of choice, it doesn't mean that he deserved his fate but he made a conscious decision to enter a country under military occupation, where there is a high level of armed resistance and where any person from a coalition country is a likely target. The 20000 dead Iraqi civilians and those detained and abused didn't have that luxury.

Originally posted by owdlad
the quick answer is yes,and they will as long as we let people like Pierce Morgan get away with publishing unverified pictures just to inflate the profits of the Mirror group.If and when they are found to be fake he should be charged with incitment to murder because our lads out there are having it bad enough without some pratt at home stabbing them in the back. Before anyone has a go at me I am not condoning the behaviour of the tiny minority of soldiers who give the arab world the chance to paint us all black, but let's not lose sight of the fact that there is less torture going on now than there was under Saddam.....rant over

HERE, HERE

Originally posted by Sidla
Well I can answer that on behalf of Muslims in my capacity as a theologian.

I'm sickened that anyone could believe that the beheading of an innocent person would be right in the name of God or indeed, Allah. There is certainly nothing in the Koran that condones the murder and torture of innocent people.

It doesn't really matter if this is targeted at non-muslims or not, there is nothing in the Koran that orders all Muslims to murder anyone who does not follow Mohammed.

Anyway, what would you expect any muslim to say? That they're glad extremists are murdering innocent people?
Well for me and I guess Tony too that doesn't mean a thing.
I'd like to know from a MUSLIM's point of view... not a students point of view. Unless of course you're a muslim Sidla in which case I apologise.

And cheers for the summport Zamo but it's not that I want to hear a muslim say it sickens them either.

I can see where you're going with this Sidla and I'm sorry to say it wont wash with me. Extremists are saying that in the name of allah and islam and the muslim faith that they are doing these terrible acts. They're asking that their muslim brothers rise up against the west and join the Jihad.

What I want to know is the reaction of genuin muslims when they say these things. What do they think? What is their reply etc?
If the extremists where saying hey Sheffield Bouncers join in with our Jihad as this is for, I'd have no problem in giving my thoughts on what they are asking.

However I wouldn't want a student of any university who may study how to be a bouncer answering for me. I'd like to stress my own opinion. How it'd make me feel.

So if you don't mind Sidla, would be ok if someone who is of that demographic answer the question that Tony and I would be interested to find out.

I've not seen the video of poor Nick Bergs murder, quite frankly I have no desire to.Neither would I want to watch a video of the four contractors recently butchered , burnt and hung from a bridge by the extremist Iraqi's.
In a climate of such brutality the challenge for everyone to retain some decency will always be an awesome task and the troops on the ground have a major challenge on their hands, now more than ever.
We should never let any form of extremism win or even give it a chance of survival.

But DaBouncer, I can predict what most Muslims would say about this, and surely you can too?

Lets suppose Iraq was a Christian country and these were Christian extremists. And I guess you'd have to presume that America were Muslims too. If an American was brutally murdered in the name of Jesus and they asked all Christians to rise up against anyone not of Christian faith, do you really think I'd suddenly go out and start plotting to murder innocent people just because some insane extremists had asked me to in the name of Jesus?

Sidla, ask yourself that question... see how it sounds and then you'll understand how silly it is.

Please... at the risk of sounding like a borken record... you've made YOUR point clear. Now may Tony and I request an answer from those to whom it was intended.

You can request it, but I very much doubt the responce will be any different to mine. What responce are you expecting?

I'm with Sid on this. Why do you need to hear from any muslim something that is obvious to anyone who is a practitioner of faith.
The simple truth is irrespective of what religous hat you wear that you love your neighbour as yourself.
You do unto others as you would have done to yourself.
anyone who doesn't understand this is not participating in any of the major belief systems within this world.
They have their own agenda and once again religion is the excuse given by them to hide behind.
I don't remember every English Catholic having to come out in the seventies to renounce the I.R.A bombing campaign, plenty did, but without exception they all saw it as futile and evil.

Originally posted by Sidla
You can request it, but I very much doubt the responce will be any different to mine. What responce are you expecting?

Well, if those who are (I presume) non-Muslims such as Ned are lending tacit support to the murder, I think we can imagine what most Muslims will think of it.

At the risk of sending Abdul (and others) off on one again, I expect the response of Muslims will be exactly the same as it was towards every other atrocity carried out in the name of Allah: A few will publicly support the murder, others will pay lip service to condemning the action in the name of diplomacy, but I suspect most will simply stand by in mute complicity and say nothing.

Bit of an assumption that one really mojo! you may think that to be the case, but I doubt you have any solid evidence of the numbers involved.

Originally posted by mojoworking
I expect the response of Muslims will be exactly the same as it was towards every other atrocity carried out in the name of Allah: A few will publicly support the murder, others will pay lip service to condemning the action in the name of diplomacy, but I suspect most will simply stand by in mute complicity and say nothing.

Do I take it that, according to the post above, any practising Muslim who does not reply to this unedifying thread is now complicit in the execution of an american telecoms engineer in Iraq?

When did you stop beating your wife?

Originally posted by Andy78
Bit of an assumption that one really mojo! you may think that to be the case, but I doubt you have any solid evidence of the numbers involved.

Of course not, but it's a fair assumption based on past events.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Do I take it that, according to the post above, any practising Muslim who does not reply to this unedifying thread is now complicit in the execution of an american telecoms engineer in Iraq?

When did you stop beating your wife?

I wasn't just referring to this forum, but speaking generally.

So you expect all Muslims to stand up and speak idividually about their opinion on this matter?

Originally posted by Sidla
So you expect all Muslims to stand up and speak idividually about their opinion on this matter?

If you care to read the entire thread, this very question was asked several times - "I'd like to know from a MUSLIM's point of view.."

To be honest, I was more intersted in how we seem to compartmentalise the various acts and react differently. I expect that most musilms will do as non-muslims would do - chat about it at work, in the pub, during the adverts, etc. Radicals will always shout loudest, whevever side they are on.

But why do we deal with acts differently?

Originally posted by Tony
To be honest, I was more intersted in how we seem to compartmentalise the various acts and react differently. I expect that most musilms will do as non-muslims would do - chat about it at work, in the pub, during the adverts, etc. Radicals will always shout loudest, whevever side they are on.

But why do we deal with acts differently?
To be honest Tony I was the same. However some people who have contributed to this thread seem to be hell bent on turning it around.

Ah well, such is life! :rolleyes:

Sorry for getting back to you all so late, I had business to sort out yesterday afternoon and evening.

Here we go...from a Muslim point of view:

Islam forbids attacking non-combatants. The Prophet Muhammad said "Do not kill women or children or non-combatants and do not kill old people or religious people" and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbis. He also said, "Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees and do not poison the wells of your enemies." which may be expanded on to mean the likes of chemical / biological weapons etc.

On the contrary, Muslims are required to behave honourably and respectfully to non-Muslims who do not harm them. "God does not forbid you, with regard to those who do not fight you or your faith, nor drive you from your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them; for Allah loves those who are just" (Koran 60:8 )"

And again on the killing of civilians "If anyone killed a person unjustly, it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind" (no, not Schindlers list, but again the Koran 5:32)

Note that Muslims believe the Koran to be the word of God (Allah), so each sentence in the Koran is a direct command from God.

Although the killers of Nick Berg may have carried out the actions 'In the name of Allah', I doubt their Lord will see it that way on the Day of Judgement, and on that Day the killers will be judged accordingly.

If we listen to the remarks made by the killers, they said it was in retaliation for the abuses of Iraqi civilians by American soldiers, therefore the killing seems to me to be a statement against Amercian forces, rather than against non-Muslims in general, especially when you compare the difference in fate of the American compared to the Japanese civilians who were recently released.

The killing of Berg may be another attempt by Al-Qaeda to polarise support of moderate Muslims. Just as Bush said you were either with him or with the terrorists, the actions of Al-Qaeda may be saying that Muslims are either with them or with the occupying American army. Personally, I'm with neither Al-Qaeda or the American forces, but each Muslim may have a different viewpoint on the actions of Al-Qaeda.

I thank Ned Ludd, evildrneil and Sidla for their sensible responses - at least they have taken the trouble to differentiate between the teachings of Islam and the actions of extremists.



Hey, what's this...it's another classic quote from one of the forums' part-time Middle East 'experts' and full time Islamophobes, mojoworking:

At the risk of sending Abdul (and others) off on one again, I expect the response of Muslims will be exactly the same as it was towards every other atrocity carried out in the name of Allah: A few will publicly support the murder, others will pay lip service to condemning the action in the name of diplomacy, but I suspect most will simply stand by in mute complicity and say nothing.

Hmmm...exactly what you said about the Muslim contribution in the war against Al-Qaeda. You never did acknowledge the Muslim Association of Britain speaking out against the terrorists, or requesting Muslim worshippers to be wary of Extremists, did you? Just like you never acknowledged the Pakistani army fighting Al-Qaeda. Oh dear, your selective amnesia is kicking in again. And I thought we were finally making progress :sad:

Abdul.

Thank you for your view point and quotations from the Holy Koran.
All I was wanting was a genuin Muslim viewpoint of how it makes you feel when extremists use your faith in this way to justify their own needs.

Much like non muslims (i.e. Me) give our viewpoint when bush shouts his rhetoric and attempts to gain support for what has really proven to be an illegal war.

Yes terrorism is wrong. However who's the terrorist?
It all depends on your viewpoint. For me it's a 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other situation.

I was all for ousting Saddamfrom power, but not at this expense.
That's really all I was getting at and can appreciate where Sidla was trying to come from. Although I think he was expecting a certain opinion from me which wasn't their. I was just interested is all.

Cheers for the comprehensive post.:thumbsup:

As usual Abdul, you're talking loud but saying absolutely nothing. Isn't the purpose of this forum to encourage debate, not stifle it as you seem bent on doing all the time.

Originally posted by mojoworking
As usual Abdul, you're talking loud but saying absolutely nothing.

I have to say I though Abduls post was clear, concise and enlightening as to the Islamic stand on what had happened - and even answered the questions posted by DaB more clearly than anyone else on here!

Originally posted by mojoworking
As usual Abdul, you're talking loud but saying absolutely nothing. Isn't the purpose of this forum to encourage debate, not stifle it as you seem bent on doing all the time.

If, by encourage debate, you mean forum users ask relevant questions and by stifle debate, you mean I answer those questions satisfactorily, then I see your point :thumbsup:

Just because the real teachings of Islam differ from your Islamophobic viewpoints, you're having another sulk :P

As usual

Originally posted by Abdul
If, by encourage debate, you mean forum users ask relevant questions and by stifle debate, you mean I answer those question satisfactorily, then I see your point :thumbsup:

Just because the real teachings of Islam differ from your Islamophobic viewpoints, you're having another sulk :P

As usual

What I mean is, when you hear something you don't like, you get abusive and start name calling.

As usual.

Not 'as usual' - it's just a personal service for you ;)

I'm surprised if you're offended being called an Islamophobe. Certainly, given some of your posts in the past, you can give criticism sufficiently well therefore I'm sure you're big enough to take it.

I'll resign myself to the probability you'll always have a negative view of Islam, Muslims and Arabs, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't correct you when the opportunity arises.

Originally posted by Abdul

I'll resign myself to the probability you'll always have a negative view of Islam, Muslims and Arabs, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't correct you when the opportunity arises.

Just as long as no one corrects you, though. Because that would be "racism", wouldn't it?

A few will publicly support the murder, others will pay lip service to condemning the action in the name of diplomacy, but I suspect most will simply stand by in mute complicity and say nothing.

Just to go back to this post for a moment, I find the phrase "mute complicity" interesting. You seem to argue that by not lifting their head above the parapet in George Bush's no-man's land (ie. neither "with us" or "against us" in the phoney war) - a place where, with all the hate that fills the pages of the Mail and the Express, it seems to me difficult for a non-white face to speak out - to shout down the actions of the small band of extremists who exist on the fringes of the most radical form of Islam, your typical British Muslim is actually complicit in their actions? Really? Do you not want to re-think this?

Would you also agree, then, that unless us white, Christian Brits shout out with maximum fervour against every bad thing that any white Christian happens to do in this world of ours, we are also "complicit" in their actions?

Semms a bit of a silly argument to me.

Originally posted by mojoworking
Just as long as no one corrects you, though. Because that would be "racism", wouldn't it?

Like that's ever stopped you before :roll:

Seriously, if I'm ever wrong about something, I'll be delighted to be corrected by the other forum users. What I don't like is for my beliefs to be unjustly criticised by someone who has an open hostility to them, and then to be accused of playing the race card when I prove their views wrong.

And all the while, what started as an interesting thread descends into attacks between forum users, and the original point of the thread gets forgotten about...

Originally posted by mojoworking
Just as long as no one corrects you, though. Because that would be "racism", wouldn't it?

Mojo, i'm not being funny, but you appear to be going a bit over the top here. A question was asked on the tread regarding the opinion of any Muslim forum members. the question was answered in full from one of our members. So far you you have been making your usual assumptions based on your outspoken opinions. It would appear that anyone on this thread who has replied to your comments, disagrees with you.
Lets give people a chance to voice their views on recent events, without you shooting down everything they say, just because you seem to think that the majority of Muslims are supporters of Islamic fundamentalists. until you take the time to research this theory fully and produce some figures, please keep it to yourself.

Ps. Sorry, i too have wondered off track here. So shall we just end the bickering here and carry on with the discussion.

Well I think that Abdul made a pretty concise response with various interesting points thet I didn't know... but then I'm a lefty do-gooder to mojo.

I suppose that mojo's attitude is the one that made me start the thread.

It's clear to him - it's them and us.

Religion-Religion-Religion=Murder and Derision, we'll all get a shock when the light goes out and it goes------Dark

Originally posted by retep
Religion-Religion-Religion=Murder and Derision, we'll all get a shock when the light goes out and it goes------Dark
Maybe for you, I'll be heading into the light. And if I'm not, what the hell will I care, I'll be dead.

But seriously, I told you what a Muslim's view on the killing would be and if I were to convert to Islam tonight my view would still be the same. And Abdul came and confirmed it. So don't be so quick to tell me to sit down and shut up just because I'm not Islamic and don't know what I'm talking about.

I also posed the question (which wasn't answered because you were too busy telling me that you wanted the opinion of a real life Muslim), what would you expect a Muslim's view on the killing to be? And how did you think it would differ to what I said in the first place?

Anyway, cheers Abdul for clearing it all up. :)

You obviously mistook my message there are more people murdered and derided through so called religion all of which are used to keep the braindead under control, no religion no wars!

No religion no wars huh? Then how do you explain the World Wars? :loopy:

My comment was a light-hearted one anyway. As I've said before it's not religion which starts war, it's humans who use religion as an excuse. And I don't really want to get into that argument again because I seem to remember that it didn't get very far.

Originally posted by Sidla
No religion no wars huh? Then how do you explain the World Wars? :loopy:


WW2 was linked to religion in that Hitler used Jews as a scapegoat. Religion has been the cause or a factor of so many different wars that I'm certain it brings more bad than good. If there was only one religion then things might be different (at least the brainwashed could all sing off the same hymn sheet, excuse the pun), but the fact that there are several different religions serves to be divisive and flairs many disputes.

Originally posted by Abdul
Like that's ever stopped you before :roll:

Seriously, if I'm ever wrong about something, I'll be delighted to be corrected by the other forum users. What I don't like is for my beliefs to be unjustly criticised by someone who has an open hostility to them, and then to be accused of playing the race card when I prove their views wrong.



You haven't proved anything wrong as far as I can see. All you've done is called me an Islamophobe for disagreeing with you.

As I keep saying, the forum is open to all to express different points of view. Just because I express one that you don't like, that doesn't make it wrong.

Originally posted by t020
WW2 was linked to religion in that Hitler used Jews as a scapegoat.
That wasn't the reason it started.

So you think if there was no religion there would be no wars? Get real! There would just be a different excuse.

Originally posted by Sidla
That wasn't the reason it started.

So you think if there was no religion there would be no wars? Get real! There would just be a different excuse.


It was in a way - Hitlers rise was largely due to scapegoating Jews and were he not in power, WW2 may never have started.

Did I ever say there'd be "no wars" without religion? No. But I certainly think there'd be less wars.

Originally posted by mojoworking

As I keep saying, the forum is open to all to express different points of view.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

The guy is a comic genius!

Originally posted by t020
:lol: :lol: :lol:

The guy is a comic genius!

Well, in theory, at least :)

First of all, thank you for this forum ... I read it all and found some very interresting point of view ...

But I have a question that hopefully you can help me with ... And I know I have to pay attention because this question might go far away from the main subject ...

I am atheist, I do not beleive in any existence of any God at all ... Thats my choice and im not pretending im right but, here my question ...

On one side, you have a guy that claim "God bless America" at the end of almost each of his sentences who launch the millitary attack of a country wich had led, so far, to something like 25 000 lost human lives. On the other side, you have a guy that claim "Allah is great" at the end of almost each of his sentences holding a butcher knife and about to cut the head of an innocent man.

I dont know if the man was atheist or not but lets pretend that this innocent man was me. If we follow their logic, the only guy in this story that wont go to paradise is the innocent guy that has his head chopped ... The other two served their respective Gods with faith and devotion and deserve eternal life ...

Why this logic appears to me to be absolutely stupid ? And why do I feel like absolutely nothing had change in human beings since middleage ?

Thank you ... : )

... and I am sorry for my english, wich is not my first language. I do my best so dont worry if I sound wierd sometimes ... : )

Your English may not be perfect but your logic is!

Originally posted by Sidla
I also posed the question (which wasn't answered because you were too busy telling me that you wanted the opinion of a real life Muslim), what would you expect a Muslim's view on the killing to be? And how did you think it would differ to what I said in the first place?

I'm assuming that was meant for me?
Well there was NO SPECIFIC REASON as I have said before.
Nothing, i just wanted a genuin answer from a genuin muslim not some student.

That OK?

Please Sidla, if you have an idea of what my 'supposed' 'ulterior motive' may have been in asking that question, share it with the group.

Originally posted by retep
Your English may not be perfect but your logic is!

Only if the premise is right - that each side was actually acting in accordance with their particular deities wants and desires and not using it as an excuse for their own self serving crappiness! As Abdul has pointed out the actions of the group in Iraq was in no way in accordance with the Koran and you can easilly argue that Bush has broken several of the 10 commandments in his foray into insanity so it looks like the excuse for self serving crappiness is more likely!

Originally posted by DaBouncer
I'm assuming that was meant for me?
Well there was NO SPECIFIC REASON as I have said before.
Nothing, i just wanted a genuin answer from a genuin muslim not some student.

That OK?

Please Sidla, if you have an idea of what my 'supposed' 'ulterior motive' may have been in asking that question, share it with the group.
I'm not trying to suggest that you have any ulterior motive and I never said that! I'm merely curious about why you thought a real Muslim's opinion would differ from what I told you!??

Originally posted by SadCircus
I dont know if the man was atheist or not but lets pretend that this innocent man was me. If we follow their logic, the only guy in this story that wont go to paradise is the innocent guy that has his head chopped ... The other two served their respective Gods with faith and devotion and deserve eternal life ...
Of course that's not how it happens, and as far as I know there is no religion which believes that.

If 'Muslims' chopped the head of an innocent man in the name of Allah, then this is clearly against the Muslim faith and the Muslims concerned will go to hell.

As for George Bush, I don't really know where he'll go. He may have done some stupid things, but his heart's probably in the right place... I don't know, it's for God to judge not me.

And as for athiests, they don't automatically go to hell for simply not believeing in God. At least that is not what Christians believe, and Muslims too I would guess. If this man led a good life and treated people how he would wish to be treated then he will go to heaven. If he was selfish he would go to hell. But again, this is for God to judge.

I copped a bit of a stick in the chatroom the other night but has anyone actually watched the video of nick Berg's execution? I watched it a couple of night's ago and then had trouble sleeping that night (well no sh*t).

I'm just interested if anyone has seen it or not and people's reasons for doing so.

To answer my own question I think it was a mixture of morbid curiosity and a detached interest in what happened - and before you all start flaming I don't get off on people being beheaded - I'm interested in what is happening out there and this was part of it.

Mod: Members, please don't post any links to the video on the Forum.

Tony, I wasn't going to although I asked people in the chat room if anyone wanted it and got a resounding 'no'.

I'm not a sick nutter. Honest.

Spook
Like you I have seen the video, and it turned my stomach. I think there is no room in this world for these kind of people which ever side they are on, but to answer your question I only watched it because i am interested in what's going on out there and having seen it I can now make my own judgments. I wonder if the Arab television networks are going to be as quick to show this as they were to show FAKE pictures of British troops......somehow I think not.

Originally posted by spook
I copped a bit of a stick in the chatroom the other night but has anyone actually watched the video of nick Berg's execution?
I don't believe in censorship but the filming this murder was a pornographic act, insofar as it seems to me that anyone who watches the film becomes involved in the act itself no matter what their motives and I can't see how it leaves the victim with any dignity either. However, I'm not necesssarily criticising anyone who's seen it because individuals have different perspectives and tolerances.

People should know exactly what happened to this man but I don't think you need to watch the tape. The still photos of him before the beheading and of the aftermath (if there are any) are sufficient to bring home the brutality of this act.
I'm not for sanitising acts of war as the TV companies did in Bosnia by saying some pictures are too disturbing to show.... if there's a pile of burnt bodies in a house it should be shown so that the enormity of such events is propely brought home.
To film deaths and transmit them is taking things too far.
This was a vile event and we don't need to watch it taking place.

I think what affected me the most was that I was expecting it to be quick and it was anything but.

You make a valid point Ned and i must admit I questioned my reasons for watching it - I was sent the link and it was one of those finger hovering over the mouse decisions.

I struggle to understand what the solutions could be in Iraq. After watching the video I looked at some of the google group discussions on it and the majority opinion seemed to be a mixture of A) it was his own fault for being there in the first place B) lets nuke the (insert derogatory term here) C) it was the CIA that did it :loopy:

I was disgusted by what I saw in the video and I was disgusted with myself for watching it but I think sometimes we have to know what is happening and not just accept the sanitised version as presented on TV. I should also say that I'm disgusted by the pictures of abuse in that jail.

Having looked at both areas I can only suppose the answer to the threads original question is a resounding yes.

Originally posted by Sidla
I'm not trying to suggest that you have any ulterior motive and I never said that! I'm merely curious about why you thought a real Muslim's opinion would differ from what I told you!??
Again you keep asking the same question to which I have already answered.
There is NO REASON other than I just wanted a genuin muslim to answer as the extermists are targetting their appeal for unity towards them.

That's all.
The way you kept asking the question, why? why? why? It's like you were expecting something from me when there was nothing to tell.

That ok? Can we let it rest now? Abdul (a genuin muslim) has answered and that's fine by me. End of? Ok?

Originally posted by Sidla
And as for athiests, they don't automatically go to hell for simply not believeing in God. At least that is not what Christians believe, and Muslims too I would guess. If this man led a good life and treated people how he would wish to be treated then he will go to heaven. If he was selfish he would go to hell. But again, this is for God to judge.
Not wanting to get into a god debate now, but I'd just like to add.
I thought that the Christian faith meant that when you die and reach the gates of heaven, St Peter (I think) will either let you in, depending on the life you've lead or ask if you'd like to repent for A) Not believing in God B) Have lead a questionable life.
Repent and you're in, tell him where to shove it and Lucifer will be your companion for the next... well eternity I reckon!

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
I don't believe in censorship but...

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
I'm not for sanitising acts of war but... [/B]
Ned, I agree with most of what you say regarding the war except this.

Many people have made postings on here either in support of the war or stating that they are "bored" with hearing about it. These people probably represent a sizable chunck of the population. But to my mind they can only be so flippant about it because they have no real understand of the horror involved.

Personally I think we should be seeing exactly what is really happening over there. Let us see the terror, pain, death and misery (the price) before they say "it is worth it" or that they are "bored" of hearing about it.

Like I said everyone will have a different perspective. A still photo is a frozen moment in time, it can shock, disgust and show the reality of these situations, which is exactly why the Pentagon is witholding hundreds of photos. They should be made to put all the photos it has into the public domain, so that we can see what's been going on.
I'd draw the line at watching their films of rape, beatings, torture and killings though......it's a bit like joining in or watching and not doing anything to help.

Originally posted by DaBouncer
Not wanting to get into a god debate now, but I'd just like to add.
I thought that the Christian faith meant that when you die and reach the gates of heaven, St Peter (I think) will either let you in, depending on the life you've lead or ask if you'd like to repent for A) Not believing in God B) Have lead a questionable life.
Repent and you're in, tell him where to shove it and Lucifer will be your companion for the next... well eternity I reckon!
Yeah, you're correct I suppose. But if it actually happens and you do get to the pearly gates then you'd obviously realise you were wrong and presumably would repent.

If you just die and nothing happens (as most athiests believe) then none of it will matter anyway. There's no harm in believeing it the way I see it.

And I'm sorry if it seemed like I was going on before, but the way you kept asking for a muslim's opinion as though you thought all muslims would start believeing the extremists are right. This won't happen, because the extremists are not a representation of the vast majority of muslims, and they are a disgrace to the name of Islam.

Originally posted by Sidla
And I'm sorry if it seemed like I was going on before, but the way you kept asking for a muslim's opinion as though you thought all muslims would start believeing the extremists are right. This won't happen, because the extremists are not a representation of the vast majority of muslims, and they are a disgrace to the name of Islam.
I knew that's what you were getting at.
The reason I kept asking is because you kept answering, and being a none muslim it didn't answer my question genuinly, albeit it was still correct.

I know that the majority of muslims feel what the extremists are doing is disgraceful. I was merely curious (because I'm not a muslim) if what the extremists are saying/promoting is actually rubbing off in some way to the genuin people they are targeting.

I mean look at those two muslims from down south who went to palestine to become suicide bombers? They showed the video on the news with them saying Isreal people deserve to be blown up. They hate the west and GWB etc etc. These were two guys, born in the UK and diverted to become extremists. So it's not surprising that some people will ask to see what other genuin muslims are feeling when they hear all the tripe the extremists spout.

And on the subject of Athiest... I'm Agnostic (not sure - need proof). I believe in some form of afterlife, but not sure of the existence of God.

Originally posted by owdlad
I wonder if the Arab television networks are going to be as quick to show this as they were to show FAKE pictures of British troops......somehow I think not.

Believe it or not (you probably won't) but they do.

I have a link to an English-speaking Arabic-news website which has decided to show the pictures.

I saw a little peek of the event after it occured - that was more than enough :(

Originally posted by spook
Tony, I wasn't going to although I asked people in the chat room if anyone wanted it and got a resounding 'no'.

I'm not a sick nutter. Honest.
I didn't expect you to for a moment spook! I was just being extra careful with the Forum in general as we have already had to remove one link to the video by someone else. I've seen it, and it's definately not for general viewing.

Originally posted by mojoworking
At the risk of sending Abdul (and others) off on one again, I expect the response of Muslims will be exactly the same as it was towards every other atrocity carried out in the name of Allah: A few will publicly support the murder, others will pay lip service to condemning the action in the name of diplomacy, but I suspect most will simply stand by in mute complicity and say nothing.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1216551,00.html

"Amid the dispute, the horror at Berg's killing continued to reverberate around the world yesterday, with sworn enemies of the US such as Hizbullah and Hamas condemning the murder."

"The Saudi ambassador to the US, Prince Bandar bin Sultan, called the murder "criminal and inhuman", a description echoed around much of the Arab world. "

Arab newspapers conspicuously played down the killing.

"In normal circumstances, I could condemn the slaughtering of the American, but we are living in abnormal circumstances. I cannot condemn it now," said Egyptian columnist Nour al-Huda Zaki of Al-Arabi, who told The Associated Press that most Arab newspapers would avoid any coverage that implicitly condemned the beheading.

A notable exception was in Kuwait, where several newspapers covered the Berg slaying on the front page.

The three major Palestinian newspapers in the West Bank and Gaza Strip ran wire stories on the beheading on their front pages but added no comment and published no photos.

"We know such actions won't help the Iraqis. It won't liberate them," said Hamed Abdulkareem, 36, of Gaza City. "The Iraqis will show themselves to be like Abu Sayyaf," he said, referring to the radical Muslim group of the Philippines, "and no one will sympathize them."

But Sawsan Al-Masri, a 24-year-old Gaza mother of one, smiled when asked about the beheading.

"He deserved it," she said of Berg. " ... Do you think what the Americans did to the detainees was less ugly?"

Some Arabs deplored the Berg killing mainly because it diverted attention from the abuse at Abu Ghraib prison, AP reported.

"Such revenge is rejected," said Mustafa Bakri, editor of Al-Osboa weekly newspaper in Egypt. "The American administration will make use of such crimes just to cover their real crimes against Iraqis."

hmmmmmmm.

In answer to the above,

Lebanon's Hizbollah guerrilla group, condemned the execution as a crime which flouted the teachings of Islam.
"Hizbollah condemns this horrible act that has done very great harm to Islam and Muslims by this group that claims affiliation to the religion of mercy, compassion and humane principles," the Shi'ite Muslim group said in a statement.


"That man went to help rebuild Iraq. I am very sad that he was killed but his stupid government put him there...If his family are looking where to put the blame, they shouldn't look further than the White House," Cairo office worker Mansour Mohammed said.

Some Arabs said Zarqawi (the alledged executioner) had failed the very people he said he was avenging by strengthening Washington's hand in Iraq.

"I want to say this action was bad because it makes Arabs look like barbarians but that's what the Americans think anyway. My fear is that now Americans will feel Iraqis deserve the torture," said Mamdouh, an Egyptian pharmacy student who did not want to give his full name.

"What religion or sect condones such a barbaric act? This is abominable, God curse Zarqawi," said Hasan Ahmad Jarallah, 41, a Saudi government employee, who had seen on the Internet the tape of masked men sawing Berg's head off with a large knife and holding it in the air.

all quotes taken from internet searches.

and for all you conspiracy theorists out there, look here (http://www.infowars.com/print/iraq/berg.htm)

Were foreign visitors banned from Iraq when Sadam was in control?

Originally posted by rainbow2411
Were foreign visitors banned from Iraq when Sadam was in control?
no