Hi All,

I've been in my current job for a few years and have worked my socks off over the years and am now at a point where I'm waiting for a position to come up that I can be promoted to.

Recently, I have been suffering with a condition called TMJ (TemporoMandibular Joint disorder) which causes me pain in my jaw, headaches, neck, shoulder and back pain. My line manager knows that I have this condition, and I have been receiving treatment for this outside of work. I have not had any time off due to this, but on bad days I can only do normal hours (or I leave a bit early and make the time up another day when it's not as bad as we have flexi-time).

Recently, I had an appraisal, and I received glowing feedback from everyone, except for a comment from this line manager, saying they are disspointed I did not make extra effort to help out for a deadline when everyone else was busting a gut and that it would have been appreciated if I'd done extra hours as this would have made a good impression and demonstrated my leadership skills.

Now, the fact is, this is not my project, I was helping another team with their project on top of my own responsibilities. I did stay on a couple of occasions and it caused me a lot of pain as my job is 99% pc work which triggers it if I do long hours. These extra hours were clearly not noticed. I also did a lot to suggest improvements and helped the team by providing my expertise and advice and showed them ways to be more efficient. That wasn't commented on. There were some occasions when people came in at weekends, but I couldn't as I had commitments which are none of their business.

I don't like the tone and implication of this feedback. If a promotion comes up the implication is that I won't get it because I didn't do as many extra hours as others.

Is this right? Can they say this in my appraisal? Is this discrimation against a disability I have at the moment? I just want to know what my rights are, because I feel I should report this to HR. I don't think they should get away with comments like this. It really upset me, since I have busted a gut in the past and this shouldn't be held against me surely? This manager has been putting pressure on all his team and some of them have ended up being signed off with stress.

Can anyone advise please?

What does your contract say?

Have you been assessed with regard to health and safety with respect to this condition?

You are not legally obliged to work outside your contracted hours, you can volunteer but they cannot force you to.

Do you have a reasonable working relationship with the manager of your manager? If so maybe you should ask for a meeting and explain how the comments have affected you and see what they say.

My contract says we should do a minimum of 37 1/2 hours in a week. I don't have my contract to hand. HR have it.

As for health and safety, I told my manager that I was in pain and I nothing happened. We have work station assessments, but I said I didn't feel comfortable after completing this but nothing more happened.

I know I don't have to do overtime, but I'm getting the feeling that I am being looked on badly because I haven't done it. Surely this is discrimination? This company seems to have an overtime = reward culture at the moment. I would have thought the fact that I do a good job in the time I am here should account for more. Besides, some of the people who do overtime, aren't as good as me at their jobs!!

Do you have a reasonable working relationship with the manager of your manager? If so maybe you should ask for a meeting and explain how the comments have affected you and see what they say.

I was thinking of doing this...but I had a meeting about something else with my managers manager recently and even he brought up perception and at the moment I wasn't being perceived as a leader because I wasn't helping enough. So I didn't bring it up, which is why I want to know the legality of this situation so I can bring it up properly.

If you dont get paid for the extra time, or recieve time off in leiu for them then I would say you are perfectly entitled to refuse them.
if you are continually expected to work overtime for no pay, with the threat that your job prospects will at threat, then you seem to have a very poor employer.
When ever I hear of these cases I always wonder what the employers reaction would be If a client said to them ' yes you have supplied us with our order, now we want more of the same but are not going to pay for it'

If your contract says 37.5 per week they are your contracted hours, a company cannot force you to do more. They may ask but you should have every right to refuse.

The company also have a duty to ensure that the job you do does not impact on your current illness. eg: if you have wrist injuries you would not be expected to use a keyboard all day and would be offered micro breaks ect. (which you should have as standard anyway!)

Your employer knowing your condition should carry out a risk assessment as standard practise to see how they can minimise any exacerbation of your current condition or hinder its recovery.

If they knowing your condition neglect your personal H&S they may find themselves liable in a tribunal.

To insist or assume that you will participate in overtime and to treat you differently if you don't is indeed discriminatory.

You should join a union!

I was thinking of doing this...but I had a meeting about something else with my managers manager recently and even he brought up perception and at the moment I wasn't being perceived as a leader because I wasn't helping enough. So I didn't bring it up, which is why I want to know the legality of this situation so I can bring it up properly.
The best thing to do is to get in touch with Amicus or Unison, and ask their legal teams. The firm does not need to be unionised, but if you are amember they can help you.
It is because of poor representation that these kind of rip offs occur

The best thing to do is to get in touch with Amicus or Unison, and ask their legal teams. The firm does not need to be unionised, but if you are amember they can help you.
It is because of poor representation that these kind of rip offs occur

AMICUS (http://www.amicustheunion.org/default.aspx?page=0) :thumbsup:

I'm not in a union at the moment, but perhaps I should contact them.

We only get paid overtime if it is agreed up front from the boss. If it is not agreed, we get time in lieu, but get 75% of the extra hours we do.

This isn't about money for overtime, it's the principle of being in pain and made to feel bad that I'm not doing it and it affecting my prospects.

Thanks for the advice though.

This has been going on for sometime and has forced me to find another job. Which I have (well going back to uni to re-train). I haven't handed my notice in yet, but want to know my rights. I feel I have been forced to leave and they've made me very unhappy and if I can do something so that no-one else who works here feels like this, then all well and good.

I'm not in a union at the moment, but perhaps I should contact them.

We only get paid overtime if it is agreed up front from the boss. If it is not agreed, we get time in lieu, but get 75% of the extra hours we do.

This isn't about money for overtime, it's the principle of being in pain and made to feel bad that I'm not doing it and it affecting my prospects.

Thanks for the advice though.

This has been going on for sometime and has forced me to find another job. Which I have (well going back to uni to re-train). I haven't handed my notice in yet, but want to know my rights. I feel I have been forced to leave and they've made me very unhappy and if I can do something so that no-one else who works here feels like this, then all well and good.


Not wanting to sound letigious but if you feel they are forcing you to leave you have a case for constructive dismissal. You must however try to resolve the issue first.

I thought about this being constructive dismissal too.

You have a disability! You are also being discriminated against. Let's put aside the fact that your company/boss sounds tightfisted as hell (75% of your time back in lieu? Oh please.....that's no way to 'reward' staff :rolleyes: ), they are actually rewarding you differently to other members of staff due to a medical condition. You are entitled to have reasonable adjustments made for you at work, and not being asked to work longer hours can be one of those. Any stepping over the line from the employer is then illegal.

It annoys me. You sound like a damn good worker, and its an all too familiar tale where an employer feels they need to throw their weight around and push you about. This is why so many people end up on Incap. :rolleyes:

Ask your doctor about getting an occupational health assessment. Good luck!

An illness or injury is automatically considered a disability. So I'd investigate that with a GP before saying anything.
Unfortuantely the way companies reward/promote isn't regulated. If they wish to recognise staff who are foolish enough to work 70hrs a week, then that's pretty much up to them.

They can't penalise you for working less than 70, be that 45 or even 37.5 on the dot. But if they choose not to promote you because you have a life outside work, I don't think you can do much about it.

The issue sounds like one of culture, where staff are expected and pressured into working long hours. They should join the 21st century and realise that motivated well rested staff are more effective in 37.5hrs than tired stressed staff are in 70.

I would strongly advise you to join the union. It isn't expensive and they can give professional advice and, if you decide to bring a claim for Constructive Dismissal, they will represent you free of charge.

Your medical condition is only classsed as a disability if it is medically accepted as a long-term condition, defined as at least 12 months with a very poor prognosis of recovery.

I find it quite bizzarre that there is mention not only of unions but also of litigation and constructive dismissal. You are obviously only obliged to do those hours in your contract but then nobody is obliged to give someone a promotion either. These things are always best sorted out by a chat. Suggesting unions and litiagation is a sure way to have youself marked as a trouble causer and will ensure you never get promoted.

i feel sorry for the op , she who used to be obeyed has found herself in a similar situation. everyone else always stays an extra 30 -60minutes every day to help with work or just to delay driving in traffic jams.
she however stays no later than minutes (she has found she gets to her home almost the same time anyway).
unfortunately her situation is her perception, no one has said she has to work extra.Could this be your case - perhaps you do feel obliged to stay ?
if they are now commenting on your attitude to work unfortunately i feel that there may be an ulterior motive.re: promotion or lack of it.

you may find that in your contract there is a statement along the lines
" additional time may be required to fulfill work obligations"
"a degree of flexibility may be required to complete work"
unfortunately this is a nice get out clause for every employer, and can cover a multitude of " accepted" practices.

I find it quite bizzarre that there is mention not only of unions but also of litigation and constructive dismissal. You are obviously only obliged to do those hours in your contract but then nobody is obliged to give someone a promotion either. These things are always best sorted out by a chat. Suggesting unions and litiagation is a sure way to have youself marked as a trouble causer and will ensure you never get promoted.
Nearly everywhere I have worked the Union negotiator s have established a nice rapport with the employers, as it in the employers interests to keep them onside. They usually get the plum positions and perks. If they dont they are not using their heads.
Employers anyway do not need know you are a Union member, they have no need to.
You use the Unions services on a personal level,for advice and information and for litigation if it becomes necessary.
In most employment these days the rabble rousing you mention is not required. When the law is pointed out to them most employer can act like human beings

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Just to clarify, I don't really want to go down the route of litiagation, as I'm not a trouble maker, but I do want to say something which is why I wanted to have an idea of my rights because when I hand my notice in I will be *very* honest as to my reasons!

I am a hard worker and in the past, I have done ridiculous hours and weekend work. I am really upset that the minute I stop doing this due to a medical reason, I am told that the companies perception of me is not good. I think this is out of order and I was interested to hear the advice you guys have given me about health and safety. I have told my manager many times about it and nothing has been done about it at all. Funnily enough, a few years ago I was told off for doing too many hours, so I worked at my time management and delegation skills to ensure I could do normal hours and still get the job done..which I achieved. Now I'm being told I look like I don't care anymore because I'm not staying to help out the rest of the team even though the quality of my work is spot on. I have asked why they are not hiring more resource to alleviate the pressures but they don't seem to consider long term, they rely on people staying. The morale is very low at the moment. Willman hit it on the head, it's the feeling obiliged syndrome. The snide remarks from managers if leaving on time like 'partimer' even though you've started at 8 and finished at 4. Leaving at 4 is perceived as leaving early even though you've completed your hours!

I am thinking of going to see the HR rep and report what has been going on, and what was said in my feedback (which I have in an email) and state what my rights are (hence me asking for advice) and tell them what I could do as a warning, then hopefully they will **** to the managers involved as they should get a ticking off and not get away with it. I will tell them that I have been forced to leave.

I feel very let down by a company I have worked my arse off for and they are going to loose me because of it.

strange there seems to be something weird going on with the censorship! t a l k is not a bad word!

In my Hubby's line of work you are expected to work overtime (for no extra money). At one of his jobs, he wasn't able to take more than 2 days off in a row and if he left work on time or didn't go in at the weekends, he was made to feel that he let the team down. In the end the company screwed him and when the project finished, instead of giving the team a bonus (as promised in the contracts), they gave them their P45's.

I've also noticed in my years at work, that if you are a hard worker, put extra effort in and do a good job, then they always expect this of you and are more likely to pull you up if you have a off day or make a mistake. But if you are already lazy, and basically take the **** at work, then they don't say anything and just let you get on with it.

OOO what an interesting thread. What have you decided to do SubPop?

Surely if you're not happy with the result of your appraisal, then you should talk to both your line manager and his immediate superior and get this situation resolved ASAP.
A company may consider that any employee that sits back and allows unjustified criticism of both them and the quality of their work, not to be a suitable candidate for promotion.
A similar thing happened to myself a couple of years ago and I did exactly as I said above. Now I have progressed further than I had ever dared to believe within the company I work for.
What I'm saying is, don't go in there all guns blazing, but on the other side of the coin, don't let them walk all over you. Have the character to stand up for yourself, but be diplomatic enough not to ruffle too many (or the wrong) feathers.

Surely if you're not happy with the result of your appraisal, then you should talk to both your line manager and his immediate superior and get this situation resolved ASAP.
A company may consider that any employee that sits back and allows unjustified criticism of both them and the quality of their work, not be a suitable candidate for promotion.
A similar thing happened to myself a couple of years ago and I did exactly as I said above. Now I have progressed further than I had ever dared to believe within the company I work for.
What I'm saying is, don't go in there all guns blazing, but on the other side of the coin, don't let them walk all over you. Have the character to stand up for yourself, but be diplomatic enough not to ruffle too many (or the wrong) feathers.

That is excellent advice, always take this route first.