a Quote from the latest Labour Party broacast for the elections

Do you agree?? I Bloody well dont!!

i know there has been worse before but i think we can still improve loads!! give someone else a chance Tony.

Try the Green party! they might get us fit and stop polution!!

I think there should be a ROFLMAO option?

Moon

make it then Moon

it seems a very thin line between labour and conservative!! so whats the difference.

Labour said
Britains working, dont let the tories wreck it again.

Okey Dokey :rolleyes:

I'd like to hear how Britain is working under Labour,the NHS is a mess,asylum is out of control,voilent crime is on the increase,the public are having there rights signed over to europe against there wishes. I can't really see anything there that make me want to vote Labour,they seem to be doing a pretty good job of wrecking Britain themselfs.
Anyway thinking about polatics winds me up,i've got more important things to worry about. I very much doubt i'll be voting in the elections anyway.

Yes the NHS is in a mess... but just try to remember back to when the tories were in power and how much worse it was then! I think one of Labour's biggest problems is that they promise more than they can deliver and build people's expectations up too high! Another of their problems of late is that they don't appear to listen to what their own MP's think. But having said that, they are still the best option at the moment IMO.

I think this advert's stupid. Rather than hear about what the Tories have or will do wrong, I'd rather hear about what Labour are going to do right.

Originally posted by Fletch
make it then Moon

*piff paff poof*

Howcome "Codswallop" has gone down from 6 to 5?

Originally posted by t020
Howcome "Codswallop" has gone down from 6 to 5?
Possibly because Moon voted for codswallop originally, but changed it when she added the new option.

Low unemployment, low inflation, low interest rates, the minimume wage, signing the social chapter, strong economy, 11,000 more police, 3,500 Community Support Officers, 24,000 more teachers, 55,000 more nurses, 10,000 more doctors, Supporting People programme, thousands of children getting free fruit in schools, established independent disability rights commission, trade in anti-personnel mines banned, internet access in public libraries, the working time directive, fewer deaths on the roads, peace-keeping troops deployed in Kosovo, Sierra Leone and East Timor (OK I've been a little selective there!) expansion of higher education, free entry to museums, parental leave rights, implemented new care standards, handguns illegalised, Sure Start, burglaries down by 39%, six consecutive years of economic growth, 420,000 jobs found by New Deal, improvements in social housing.

These are a few of the reasons behind the slogan and why I'll be voting Labour on 10 June.

You missed out "Very Effective Propaganda Machine", which clearly your post demonstrates perfectly.

Low unemployment - New Labours push for more and more students and the way in which someone is classified as being unemployed ensures the figures are fiddled to look lower. (This is worth a read (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/05/10/do1004.xml) )

Low Inflation - New Labours (or Blairs) determination to sign us up to an EU superstate means that inflation is now measured using the CPI (Consumer Price Index), which only considers "shopping trolley" consumables such as groceries, clothes and electrics. All of these are steady, some falling in price. Notably this measure excludes services (ever sat down for a coffee at a restaurant to the tune of £10?) and house prices (the words "ceiling", "through" and "the" spring to mind). Needless to say the CPI gives a conveniently rosy view of inflation.

Low Interest Rates - encouraging an unsustainable culture of borrowing in which the average person is thousands of pounds in debt and house prices have rocketed through the ceiling to unsustainable levels, surely preceeding a crash. Also bad for those with savings.

Minimum Wage - several companies laying off thousands of UK workers as labour costs are so much lower when they "outsource" to countries such as India.

Strong Economy - Built on a solid grounding that the Conservatives left it in in 1997 after Thatcher had to turn round the disaster left by Labour in the 70s. So strong it was that New Labour didn't dare to tamper with any of the spending policies of the Tory legacy for over 3 years into their first Parliament.

11,000 more police - 33,000 more bureaucrats (ditto with teachers, nurses, etc)

Peace-keeping troops deployed in Kosovo - torture-keeping troops deployed in Iraq.

Expansion of higher education - top up fees that Blair promised not to introduce, which will leave students in debt to the tune of 10s of thousands of pounds.

Handguns "illegalised" - a sharp rise in gun crime in every single year since Labour took power in 1997.

Burglaries down by 39% - violent crime up 11% in the final quarter of 2003 alone.

Six consecutive years of economic growth - foundations put in place by Conservatives and the economy was already growing, New Labour simply "cashed in" on this, but wait until the effects of their tax and spend, borrow now pay later policies begin to show.

These are just a few reasons behind the spin that you shouldn't be voting Labour on 10 June. (not to mention the fact that these are *Local* elections and therefore national spending, crime, etc, are all largely irrelevant until the *General* elections).

Smiler, those are all things that the Conservatives probably would have introduced had they been left in charge long enough.

For example,
internet access in public libraries
The internet wasn't really around in a massive way when the Tories lost power.

Also, the population of Britain is much higher now, which could account for the greater need of more police, more NHS staff and more teachers.

As for
fewer deaths on the roads
This leads to further 'stealth' taxes (which is not something I necessarily disagree with), which causes public dissatisfaction.

I voted for the last option. The broadcast was nothing more than an attack on Howard's policies - little (if any) mention of what Labour would do.

I noticed the Labour spin machine couldn't resist showing clips of the Poll Tax riots...a pity they didn't use any clips of the Anti-war demonstrators.

And as for the millions back in work...correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Blair's first action as PM (after awarding himself a huge pay increase of course) to increase the unemployment figures, simply by changing the definition of 'out of work'. It cetainly makes his figures look good several years down the line, but how much of this can we believe?

And his second action was to pass over control of interest rates to the Bank of England. I personally thought that was like putting the lunatics in charge of the asylum, but you may have your own ideas.

I feel deja vu kicking in again. There have been several threads about this and in each one I posted a list of Labour's achievements. In each case there were howls of lies, spin, etc., but when asked to identify any instances of a lie or incorrect statistic people became quiet.:loopy:

Rant over and I won't be posting the list again so go do a search.

Originally posted by Fletch
a Quote from the latest Labour Party broacast for the elections

Do you agree?? I Bloody well dont!!

i know there has been worse before but i think we can still improve loads!! give someone else a chance Tony.

Try the Green party! they might get us fit and stop polution!!

Don't you agree??? I BLOODY WELL DO!!!

I'm working and in doing so I and millions like me are contributing to keep this country going. It is therefore important to me to have a government in place which I feel identifies with my desires for this country. I want decent education for all children, better housing for all so that we don't create a polarised society of propert haves and have nots, better public transport, stronger disciplines for young offenders and their parents, a country where you can grow old gracefully and safely, a good health care system in which to do it, better understanding and increased trade with our neighbours throughout europe and a place where we all have opportunity irrespective of background.
I know no government can be perfect and can deliver everything all the time and on time, but I'd rather place my beliefs in this labour government both nationally and locally than the Liberal Democrats and Tories anyday. I have a voice and a vote, I will use them both on election day because I wish to keep Britain and myself working in to the future.

Originally posted by Sidla
Also, the population of Britain is much higher now, which could account for the greater need of more police, more NHS staff and more teachers.

ermm, no, it isn't.

At the end of the day, nations need continuity of good things. That's why labour kept lots of things the same - quite simply, they worked! For once politicians realised the value of continuity -v- change.

We do have much more general stability and success as a nation. Make no mistake, the country IS run by beaurocrats, NOT politicians.

We are getting better on the whole now that we have stopped changing things just for party political reasons.

The Labour and Conservative parties have BOTH realised this, which is why the spin becomes important for them to seperate themselves.

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
*piff paff poof*

:o I know what your on about! LOL

Nomme

Originally posted by Cyclone
ermm, no, it isn't.

[theatre] Oh yes it is!! Check the recent census data...

show me the figures then. And quantify them with a % change in population and the % change in NHS staff and teaching staff.

In fact i'll check it myself

2001 - National profile UK
Total number of people 58789194

Change since 1991 1435300

to quanitfy that, it's a 2.5% increase in population.

Someone else can work out what % those 10000 extra nurses were. More than 2.5% though I think.

My point stands, 2.5% is negligable, not 'much higher' as Sidla said.

Originally posted by bulldog D
I'm working and in doing so I and millions like me are contributing to keep this country going. It is therefore important to me to have a government in place which I feel identifies with my desires for this country. I want decent education for all children, better housing for all so that we don't create a polarised society of propert haves and have nots, better public transport, stronger disciplines for young offenders and their parents, a country where you can grow old gracefully and safely, a good health care system in which to do it, better understanding and increased trade with our neighbours throughout europe and a place where we all have opportunity irrespective of background.
I know no government can be perfect and can deliver everything all the time and on time, but I'd rather place my beliefs in this labour government both nationally and locally than the Liberal Democrats and Tories anyday. I have a voice and a vote, I will use them both on election day because I wish to keep Britain and myself working in to the future.

HERE HERE!!!

Originally posted by Cyclone
My point stands, 2.5% is negligable, not 'much higher' as Sidla said.

I think when you're talking in millions that 2.5% isn't negligable (though maybe that's just a difference of opinion... )

Plus the NHS was notoriously understaffed for years, so the increase wouldn't necessarily be in proportion.

Halevan is doing a very nice job of demonstrating the Labour debating skills...

Originally posted by Agent Dan
I think when you're talking in millions that 2.5% isn't negligable (though maybe that's just a difference of opinion... )

Plus the NHS was notoriously understaffed for years, so the increase wouldn't necessarily be in proportion.

That supports my point then. The rise in staffing levels are higher than the rise in population (which Sidla said was a large rise).

So the original point about NHS staffing levels being better since labour came into power is correct (after the figures are normalised for population change).

I was only arguing that single point though, labour have made some progress and some mistakes. And no doubt the conservatives would have made some of the same progress and some of the same mistakes.
I'd like to see where 1 more term takes Labour. Although I am deeply disturbed by Blunkett and his crackpot ideas.

Originally posted by Sidla
Halevan is doing a very nice job of demonstrating the Labour debating skills...

And pointing out people's weaknesses is demonstrating what, exactly?

Originally posted by Cyclone
My point stands, 2.5% is negligable, not 'much higher' as Sidla said.
I would say that a 2.5% increase population-wise is actually quite a significant population shift.

In 2001, the UK had a birth rate of 1.154% and a death rate of 1.035%. This will give a population growth rate of 0.119%. So over 10 years the population should have grown by 1.19%. This is less than half your 2.5% increase.

Your 'negligable' figure doesn't really look so negligable now does it?

Nah. In my eyes the Tories ruined the country the first time and Tony's ruining it this time around.
Guys I think we should all vote Green!! ;)

Originally posted by Rusted Root
Guys I think we should all vote Green!! ;)

I did, in the last local elections... a wasted vote? I don't think so. I'll do it again next time.

My family have always been labour supporters. In fact I reckon it could be put into the family tree they being that red faithful for generations.

If they vote the way they been talking I believe my ancestors will be turning in their graves! I could understand the odd few, but even my nan is changing her vote this time round :o

This is of course only one family, but labour have got to be doing something wrong to offend my lot.

Moon Maiden

"Britain is working, dont let the tories wreck it again!"

This is highly reminiscent of Thatcher's election poster of 1979
"Labour isn't working" with it's infamous dole queue picture.
Thatcher got in and doubled the rate of unemployment virtually overnight!

Both slogans are a disgrace 'cos there's no element of policy debate in either. The similarity to me proves how much New Labour apes the Tories and that Bliar is indeed the spawn of Thatcher.

Originally posted by max
I feel deja vu kicking in again. There have been several threads about this and in each one I posted a list of Labour's achievements. In each case there were howls of lies, spin, etc., but when asked to identify any instances of a lie or incorrect statistic people became quiet.:loopy:

Rant over and I won't be posting the list again so go do a search.

Thats because the statistics are manipulated by Blairs spin doctors in order to look better than things really are (see my previous post in this thread for more details).

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
"Britain is working, dont let the tories wreck it again!"

This is highly reminiscent of Thatcher's election poster of 1979
"Labour isn't working" with it's infamous dole queue picture.
Thatcher got in and doubled the rate of unemployment virtually overnight!

Both slogans are a disgrace 'cos there's no element of policy debate in either. The similarity to me proves how much New Labour apes the Tories and that Bliar is indeed the spawn of Thatcher.
Still on about M.Thatcher, get over it the worlds moved on. Someone should tell Radio Sheffield and the loony left presenters as well. I dont pay my licence fee to have some presenters politics rammed down my throat.
BBC is riddled with elderly hippies and lower middle class politically correct oafs in sandals. If you are going to force politics on people this way there should be a balance between left and right

Originally posted by Sidla

The internet wasn't really around in a massive way when the Tories lost power.

Also, the population of Britain is much higher now, which could account for the greater need of more police, more NHS staff and more teachers.

As for

This leads to further 'stealth' taxes (which is not something I necessarily disagree with), which causes public dissatisfaction.

Re the internet, you might be right that it would have been available. But would it have been free? I doubt it. Personally I think it is important as it ensures a degree of universal access to a fantastic resource.

As for you comment on the population, I haven't got around to doing the maths but I am sure that the proportionate increase in the number of nurses, doctors, police and teachers is far greater than the increase in population generally.

I bet the internet would have been free, but it's a moot point since there can be no proof either way.

As for the nurses etc. yes ok there are more nurses per head now. I don't have any experience of hospitals though, so whether this is a good thing or not I don't know.

Originally posted by t020
You missed out "Very Effective Propaganda Machine", which clearly your post demonstrates perfectly.

Low unemployment - New Labours push for more and more students and the way in which someone is classified as being unemployed ensures the figures are fiddled to look lower. (This is worth a read (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/05/10/do1004.xml) )

Low Inflation - New Labours (or Blairs) determination to sign us up to an EU superstate means that inflation is now measured using the CPI (Consumer Price Index), which only considers "shopping trolley" consumables such as groceries, clothes and electrics. All of these are steady, some falling in price. Notably this measure excludes services (ever sat down for a coffee at a restaurant to the tune of £10?) and house prices (the words "ceiling", "through" and "the" spring to mind). Needless to say the CPI gives a conveniently rosy view of inflation.

Low Interest Rates - encouraging an unsustainable culture of borrowing in which the average person is thousands of pounds in debt and house prices have rocketed through the ceiling to unsustainable levels, surely preceeding a crash. Also bad for those with savings.


Sadly I have better things to do than take this point by point so I will restrict myself to the first three.

Low unemployment: Thanks but I won't take lessons from the Torygraph, especially an article that labels mental illness as 'mood disorders'. It is worth pointing out that the number of people in work in the UK - at 28.3 million - is a record high. Therefore more people are employed however you choose to look at it. And having more students is a good thing as it provides for greater opportunities for people in the future. It also means we will have a better educated workforce.

Low inflation: It is correct to say that the headline measure of inflation has been changed to the Consumer Price Index. However, if we return to the measure that was used until January of this year, the Retail Price Index, I think you will find that the current rate is 2.8%. This is well within the Govenment's target range (which is bewteen 1% and 4%). This is low inflation and I believe this measure includes house price inflation.

On its own the high rate of house price inflation is a concern. However, while the econmomy remains so strong, inflation remains so low and employment remains so high it is not a threat to the overall strength of the economy. Hence the soft landing the Bank of England appears to be trying to generate.

Low interest rates: I take it you would prefer high interest rates? How high? Will Norman Lamont's 15% be high enough for you? Would you prefer people to have less choice about their borrowing and to pay more on their mortgages? I think you might find yourself isolated on this one. Certainly the CBI - no friends of Labour - disagree, as this link shows.

http://www.cbi.org.uk/8025670600015c2e/e2b9fe92bde5d0058025673a003bbf46/73d3710d0629af9880256d7b0034ccd4?OpenDocument

Finally, as for propaganda machine, well, no, I'm just an ordinary Labour supporter who likes to see credit where it is due. I have no role within Labour, other than as an [inactive] member of the party.

As previously stated though, the good state of the economy is largely down to the Conservatives legacy - afterall, it was only a few years ago that Gordon Brown started to change from Tory spending plans. The Tories picked up the country in a state left by Labour in 1979, with inflation as high as 28% under the previous Labour government. They left it as one of the worlds leading economies. I think the temporary rise in unemployment was worthwhile in the long run. This healthy economic legacy however won't last now that Gordon Brown is returning to traditional Labour "tax and spend" policies, introducing 66 new taxes and pouring billions down the blackhole of public services yet yielding little improvement other than more pen pushers.

28%, I say 28%! I suggest you check you figures. i think you'll find that when gentleman Jim Callaghan left government inflation stood at approx 8%. Amazingly within 18 months of tory misrule it had increased to 29%. In the early eighties I can remember poverty and seeing children going to school without adequate winter clothing because their families or their single parents couldn't afford to clothe them properly.
I was nearly their too but I was one of the lucky ones, i achieved though no thanks to Thatcher and her demonic disciples, but because of my aspirations and determination to give something to my family. However, this does not give me the right to forget or to disalow any opportunity to those who are in need of it as good people will always succeed and overcome oppression in what ever form it is delivered, and Mrs T and her faithful followers were pretty good at delivering that.

Originally posted by dragonsoup
Still on about M.Thatcher, get over it the worlds moved on. Someone should tell Radio Sheffield and the loony left presenters as well. I dont pay my licence fee to have some presenters politics rammed down my throat.
BBC is riddled with elderly hippies and lower middle class politically correct oafs in sandals. If you are going to force politics on people this way there should be a balance between left and right
A well balanced analysis of past and current political trends:rolleyes:

Well almost 70% of people who've voted in this poll disagree with the statement.

Does this mean that people don't think Britain is working, don't think the Tories wrecked Britain or are simply Conservatives? Or a mixture of all 3?

The thought of Blair, Blunkett and Prescott running my country scares the hell outta me........ :help:

The thought of Howard being in charge doesn't fill me with happiness either...

Break out the gunpowder comrades its time for a revolution!!!!

The difficulty with this thread's poll is that it leaves no room for anything except black/white agreement - no shades of grey. I think that Howard's tory government would be a disaster, as he has no real power, management skill, or policies... it may be my opinion, but every time I've tuned in to listen to him speak, he spends all his time de-bunking Tony's policies, rather than creating his own.

I would probably vote for Boris Johnson if he was tory leader, and I'm a "socialist"... in the REAL sense of the word (i.e. doing things for the benefit of others, rather than personal gain)...

Labour don't exist, they died with Smith and Kinnock (although Kinnock wouldn't have been great either).

I'm voting liberal. No choices left.

Originally posted by Sidla
Halevan is doing a very nice job of demonstrating the Labour debating skills...

Removed my answer again have you? can't bear anyone to have their say Eh.?

Originally posted by halevan
Removed my answer again have you? can't bear anyone to have their say Eh.?

Are you sure you have the right thread Hal?

Were you refering to this post of yours :
http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&postid=110737#post110737

Nomme

I will be voting Labour as I feel they've done a reasonable job. Must admit there are areas the Labour government have not got quite right, but considering the alternatives they are in a better position than most to run this country for another few years.

Besides, can anyone recall what 18 years of tory rule did for Sheffield and other heavy industrial cities?

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
A well balanced analysis of past and current political trends:rolleyes: Maybe not in the eyes of someone who thinks he or she is intellectually superior, but its my opinion and as you dont have the totalitarian forum that I believe you think you have I will continue to voice it where do you think you are question time ? are you Dimbleby in disguise?

Like it or not. We are stuck with as now...a psuedo labour/tory party and the tories.

Psuedo labour/tory means to act in the interests of re-election whatever damage we do in the process.

To abandon manifesto pledges at will and on a whim.

To have a presidential government with no constitution and to accept a dictator at the helm whether you like it or not. :mad:

Originally posted by dragonsoup
Maybe not in the eyes of someone who thinks he or she is intellectually superior, but its my opinion and as you dont have the totalitarian forum that I believe you think you have I will continue to voice it where do you think you are question time ? are you Dimbleby in disguise?

huh ???

wow i didnt expect it to become this popular! this is the largest posting thread i have ever started!

labour must be getting bad if even its own MP's are running from it!

ok so we have had god knows how many years of labour now, and yes thing may have become better, due to tony or other matters, (the latter i think) but is that due to tony or the change in society?

as bill bailey says in one of his scetches
"America walks up to the kid and says 'give me your money' and the UK pops up behind the US and says 'yeah or else'!"

all tony blair is doing is kissing George Bush's bum!and tryng to be like america, which to me is sad!

we need new government that can sustain its people and its country on its own '2 feet'

Which i think we should give the tories a go!

If all the people who ever said "Why should I try, i'm only one person, I can't affect the outcome" had taken a stance, the world would be a better place.


my bull****s equal to yours anyday Elvis.

Originally posted by Fletch
we need new government that can sustain its people and its country on its own '2 feet'

Which i think we should give the tories a go!

The Tories had 18 years. They wrecked this country and wrecked millions of peoples lives.

For all I hate Blair and the Labour party, I certainly think he's the lesser of two evils.

Originally posted by Andy
The Tories had 18 years. They wrecked this country and wrecked millions of peoples lives.

For all I hate Blair and the Labour party, I certainly think he's the lesser of two evils.

Agreed.

Even if he has to all intents and purposes made the UK the 51st US State :loopy:

Originally posted by Andy
The Tories had 18 years. They wrecked this country and wrecked millions of peoples lives.

For all I hate Blair and the Labour party, I certainly think he's the lesser of two evils.

Disagreed. If it hadn't been for the changes of the 1980s, I hate to think what we'd be like now. Bankrupt probably.

But looking back is a pretty pointless exercise anyway. All parties adopted policies at that time that reflected the views of the people. We've all moved on, as have the three main political parties. Quite frankly, I don't think there's a lot to choose between the two main parties any more. I'm afraid I think the main difference is that Michael Howard didn't answer Paxman's questions, whereas our Prime Minister's record suggests he would have lied through his teeth.

It's not a great choice - sleaze v lies. Or LibDem of course.....!

That just proves that all political big wigs are as bent as each other, regardless of which branch of politics they're in.

Originally posted by Lickszz
Like it or not. We are stuck with as now...a psuedo labour/tory party and the tories.



I don't know about the pseudo labour/tory description. I work in supported housing which is really about enabling people from disadvantaged backgrounds to access opportunities. There has been a huge investment in this area since Labour won office and services are provided to many more people, in many more creative ways. There is also a clear framework for operating in and quality standards to adhere to. I know this is only one example but to my mind it is the business of a left of centre government to promote participation, ownership and opportunities for all (as opposed to the tories promoting it for the few) and Labour are doing that in the field I am in.

They aren't perfect but I reckon they are pretty good (err, domestically anyway).