THe independent reports today that UK soldiers have been accused of shooting civilians 'in cold blood'.

Are the allies still the liberators?

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=519432


Going back a bit I am reminded of the lyrics to "potshot around the world" written some time ago (1986 I think) By Jello Biafra of the Dead Kennedys


Hey! Yo!
We're the United States Marines
We know you've all been killing each other
For at least two thousand years
But we're here now
To protect the family
Of Christian heroin warlords
Most friendly to the West
So you knock off this fighting
Or we'll tell Mom
Ever notice news
Is taged like TV wrestling shows
With Reagans and Khaddafis cast
As cartoon villains and heroes
Or those wildlife "documentaries"
Where a lion from a zoo
Kills a deer tied down ahead of time
At the perfect camera angle
When lemmings balk at dying for Disney
They're just hurled off the cliff...
We are gathered here today
To take photos of the President
Pretending to mourn these brave young men
Who came home from Beirut
Gift-wrapped in body bags-
A truck bomb blew them to bits
We knew they were sitting ducks
We sacrificed 'em, Aztec style
So we could use their dead meat
To cook up war fever back home
So make sure you take lots of pictures
And slant your news our way
Just like in Wild Kingdom
We first tied down the prey
We want people boiling for revenge
In their living rooms
So we can go play shoot-em-up
Anywhere we choose
And our backers can cash in
Without the public asking questions

Lyrics as poignant now as when they were written two decades ago. Here's more..


Hello, British Prime Minister's office. Prime Minister speaking.

Greetings:This is the Secretary of War at the State Department of the United States.
We have a problem.
The companies want something done about this sluggish world economic situation.
Profits have been running a little thin lately and we need to stimulate some growth
Now we know there's an alarmingly high number of young people roaming around in your country with nothing to do but stir up trouble for the police and damage private property.
It doesn't look like they'll ever get a job.
It's about time we did something constructive with these people
We've got thousands of 'em here too. They're crawling all over
The companies think it's time we all sit down, have a serious get-together and start another war.
The President?
He loves the idea! All those missiles streaming overhead to and fro.
Napalm.
People running down the road, skin on fire.
The Soviets seem up for it:
The Kremlin's been itching for the real thing for years.
Hell, Afghanistan's no fun.
So whadya say?

Uh.. umm..

We don't even have to win this war.
We just want to cut down on some of this excess population.
Now look. Just start up a draft; draft as many of those people as you can.
We'll call up every last youngster we can get our hands on,
hand 'em some speed, give 'em an hour or two to learn how to use an automatic rifle and send 'em on their way.
Libya? El Salvador? How 'bout Northern Ireland?
Or a "moderately repressive regime" in South America?
We'll just cook up a good Soviet threat story in the Middle East-we need that oil.
We had Libya all ready to go and Colonel Khadafy's hit squad
didn't even show up. I tell ya That man is unreliable.
The Kremlin had their fingers on the button just like we did for that one.
Now just think for a minute-We can make this war so big-so BIG
The more people we kill in this war, the more the economy will prosper.
We can get rid of practically everybody on your dole queue if we plan this right.
Take every loafer on welfare right off our computer rolls.
Now don't worry about demonstrations-just pump up your drug supply.
So many people have hooked themselves on heroin
and amphetamines since we took over, it's just like Vietnam.
We had everybody so busy with LSD they never got too strong.
Kept the war functioning just fine.
It's easy.
We've got our college kids so interested in beer they don't even care if we start manufacturing germ bombs again.
Put a nuclear stockpile in their back yard, they wouldn't even know what it looked like.
So how 'bout it? Look-War is money.
The arms manufacturers tell me unless we get our bomb factories up to full production the whole economy is going to collapse.
The Soviets are in the same boat.
We all agree the time has come for the big one, so whadya say?!?

Uh.. uhh.. OK

That's excellent. We knew you'd agree
The companies will be very pleased.

Or you could look at it this way, as Bob Dylan did in 1979:

All that foreign oil controlling American soil,
Look around you, it's just bound to make you embarrassed.
Sheiks walkin' around like kings, wearing fancy jewels and nose rings,
Deciding America's future from Amsterdam and from Paris
And there's a slow, slow train comin' up around the bend.

I don't suppose Bob Zimmerman's Jewish roots were colouring his view of Arabs?

As to Basra, Tony Blair's expression of revulsion over human rights abuses rings a little hollow given that Amnesty complained to the Governmenyt LAST May; that the military police have been investigating reports of sexual abuse since around this time last year (I suppose they had to after a Photo-processing company complained); that the Red Cross had complained to the government in February.
And now we expected to believe that Hoon and Blair didn't know and are disgusted?:mad:

Of course the US wouldn't sign up to an International treaty on war crimes and now they have demonstrated why. A few low ranking fall guys will be held accountable for a system of abuse which has probably been approved from the highest level...at least up to Rumsfeld.
The only thing they are p****d off about is that all this has leaked out.

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
I don't suppose Bob Zimmerman's Jewish roots were colouring his view of Arabs?

Possibly, but I doubt that a part-time Middle East 'expert' and full time Islamophobe such as mojoworking would care.

Sorry, mojo, what had this to do with Basra, other than your hatred of Arabs?

Originally posted by mojoworking
Or you could look at it this way, as Bob Dylan did in 1979:

All that foreign oil controlling American soil,
Look around you, it's just bound to make you embarrassed.
Sheiks walkin' around like kings, wearing fancy jewels and nose rings,
Deciding America's future from Amsterdam and from Paris
And there's a slow, slow train comin' up around the bend.

The two outlooks (three if you count Jello Biafra twice) are not mutually exclusive.

Dylan bemoans the US reliance on petrochemicals and the trouble coming round the bend. Jello Biafra bemoans the trouble itself, i.e US strategic dominance policy.

Originally posted by Abdul
Possibly, but I doubt that a part-time Middle East 'expert' and full time Islamophobe such as mojoworking would care.

Sorry, mojo, what had this to do with Basra, other than your hatred of Arabs?

You flatter me Abdul. If only I could get to the point as succinctly as Bob.

It's interesting that Dylan's words are dismissed in this context because he's Jewish. Normally such a condemnation would spark howls of indignation on the forum.

My point is that Dylan predicted major problems in the middle east a long time ago.

Well I dunno about predicted. Middle East was in flames at that point, opec raising prices, abdication of the shah etc.

Condemnation is not something that Muslims do.

Apart from the extremists of course.

But I'm sure you knew that...

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Well I dunno about predicted. Middle East was in flames at that point, opec raising prices, abdication of the shah etc.

There has been trouble in the region for a long time, that's true. But I did say that Bob "predicted MAJOR problems" of the type we're starting to see now.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Well I dunno about predicted. Middle East was in flames at that point, opec raising prices, abdication of the shah etc.

And US support for tinpot dictators and oppressive regimes...

Anyway, back to the point mojoworking. The events in Basra are why I was against another war in Iraq. Nothing to do with support for Saddam, but instead support for Iraqi civilians, who have suffered enough thanks to Saddam, Gulf War I and the UN sanctions imposed shortly after it.

Originally posted by mojoworking
It's interesting that Dylan's words are dismissed in this context because he's Jewish. Normally such a condemnation would spark howls of indignation on the forum.
Bob's written some mighty fine songs there's no denying and
I admit I no nothing of his politics.
However the majority of Jews appear to support the Zionist foreign policies of the state of Israel. It seems to me that Zionism in practice is racist and that howls of indignation raised are a smokescreen and an attempt to stifle debate on this. However it could be that Bob is being merely ignorant in this instance.

Originally posted by mojoworking
It's My point is that Dylan predicted major problems in the middle east a long time ago.
It's a pity his lyrics didn't examine their gas guzzling economy's role in their dependence on other peoples' oil reserves!
Anyway I thought the US was all in favour of market forces, why shouldn't this include the price of oil? No need to answer this as it's plain to see: Invade Iraq, privatise the oil industry (preferably to US companies) and shoot anyone who objects.

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
Bob's written some mighty fine songs there's no denying and
I admit I no nothing of his politics.
However the majority of Jews appear to support the Zionist foreign policies of the state of Israel. It seems to me that Zionism in practice is racist and that howls of indignation raised are a smokescreen and an attempt to stifle debate on this. However it could be that Bob is being merely ignorant in this instance.


It's a pity his lyrics didn't examine their gas guzzling economy's role in their dependence on other peoples' oil reserves!
Anyway I thought the US was all in favour of market forces, why shouldn't this include the price of oil? No need to answer this as it's plain to see: Invade Iraq, privatise the oil industry (preferably to US companies) and shoot anyone who objects.

While it's true that Bob was born into a Jewish family, the album that this song appears on (Slow Train Coming) was the first in a trilogy of LPs he recorded after renouncing his (admittedly dormant) Jewish faith and becoming a born-again Christian. It was a short-lived conversion as it turned out. So it’s simply not true to say that his Zionist/Jewish beliefs played a part in the writing of the song.

I hesitate to speak for Dylan, but I always understood the song to be a comment on the irony that a great world power such as America can be brought to its knees by third world Arab countries because of the USA's total reliance on oil. But I could be wrong.

Originally posted by mojoworking
I hesitate to speak for Dylan, but I always understood the song to be a comment on the irony that a great world power such as America can be brought to its knees by third world Arab countries because of the USA's total reliance on oil.

Interesting point mojo. Is the irony that they're Arabs or that they're third world? (now first world oil producers actually)

Originally posted by Abdul
Interesting point mojo. Is the irony that they're Arabs or that they're third world? (now first world oil producers actually)

Do you really find it interesting Abdul, or are you just trying to stir up more ill feeling? It really is becoming tiresome now.

Like it or not, Israel excepted, the middle east is still regarded as part of the third world, despite the help of western engineers who helped them make all those billions of petro-dollars.

Here for your reference is the definition of third world:
A synonym for countries in the poorest regions of the world -- Central and South America, Africa, the Middle East and many countries in Asia. The term is still frequently used in this context, although it is an anachronism from the Cold War, vis-a-vis the First World of capitalist liberal democracies and the Second World of socialist central planning.

Originally posted by mojoworking
While it's true that Bob was born into a Jewish family, the album that this song appears on (Slow Train Coming) was the first in a trilogy of LPs he recorded after renouncing his (admittedly dormant) Jewish faith and becoming a born-again Christian. It was a short-lived conversion as it turned out. So it’s simply not true to say that his Zionist/Jewish beliefs played a part in the writing of the song.

I hesitate to speak for Dylan, but I always understood the song to be a comment on the irony that a great world power such as America can be brought to its knees by third world Arab countries because of the USA's total reliance on oil. But I could be wrong.
Nah I think you are right, that song was hardly some Arch Zionist anti arab rant so much as a criticism of the USA for getting hooked on oil.

Originally posted by mojoworking
Do you really find it interesting Abdul

Yes. Believe it or not, despite disagreeing with your opinion on most things, I find many of your comments interesting.

Originally posted by mojoworking
or are you just trying to stir up more ill feeling?
No. It seems you're quite capable of doing more than enough of that on your own.

I seem to have steered this thread away from Basra to Bob Dylan for which, my apologies. On reflection, if Bob is anti-Arab it is probably down to him being an American rather than being born a Jew and my remark was therefore probably unfair.

It does raise the age old problem of interpreting other people's lyrics. John Lennon was frequently amused when people found all sorts of meanings in his songs which just weren't there. At which point I'd say, Bush and Blair should have joined Hans Blix in singing (All we are saying, is give peace a chance)

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Nah I think you are right, that song was hardly some Arch Zionist anti arab rant so much as a criticism of the USA for getting hooked on oil.

Thank you. I appreciate your measured response.

Interestingly, Dylan did (temporarily) embrace his Jewish faith again and in 1983 came up with Neighborhood Bully, a song about how everyone hates Israel (the Neighborhood Bully). It's fair to say that this one probably could be called a paranoid Zionist rant:

Well, the neighborhood bully, he's just one man,
His enemies say he's on their land.
They got him outnumbered about a million to one,
He got no place to escape to, no place to run.
He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully just lives to survive,
He's criticized and condemned for being alive.
He's not supposed to fight back, he's supposed to have thick skin,
He's supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in.
He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land,
He's wandered the earth an exiled man.
Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn,
He's always on trial for just being born.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized,
Old women condemned him, said he should apologize.
Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad.
The bombs were meant for him.
He was supposed to feel bad.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim
That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him,
'Cause there's a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac.
He's the neighborhood bully.

He got no allies to really speak of.
What he gets he must pay for, he don't get it out of love.
He buys obsolete weapons and he won't be denied
But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he's surrounded by pacifists who all want peace,
They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease.
Now, they wouldn't hurt a fly.
To hurt one they would weep.
They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Every empire that's enslaved him is gone,
Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon.
He's made a garden of paradise in the desert sand,
In bed with nobody, under no one's command.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Now his holiest books have been trampled upon,
No contract he signed was worth what it was written on.
He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth,
Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health.
He's the neighborhood bully.

What's anybody indebted to him for?
Nothin', they say.
He just likes to cause war.
Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed,
They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed.
He's the neighborhood bully.

What has he done to wear so many scars?
Does he change the course of rivers?
Does he pollute the moon and stars?
Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill,
Running out the clock, time standing still,
Neighborhood bully.

Originally posted by Abdul
Yes. Believe it or not, despite disagreeing with your opinion on most things, I find many of your comments interesting.

I'm surprised to hear you say that, but heartened nevertheless.

No. It seems you're quite capable of doing more than enough of that on your own.

But saddened to hear you say this :(

Originally posted by mojoworking
Interestingly, Dylan did (temporarily) embrace his Jewish faith again and in 1983 came up with Neighborhood Bully, a song about how everyone hates Israel (the Neighborhood Bully). It's fair to say that this one probably could be called a paranoid Zionist rant:
Oh! I may have to take part of my last entry back now!:confused:
i may have been right.
He should have stuck to Mr Tambourine Man and Absolutely Sweet Marie (great songs covered by others)