[This topic was not originally started by this user, rather it was split from another topic which you can find here (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10694)]

they are looking to create a non-white community - it will become a no-go area not unlike areas of Darnall and Fir Vale. A sad turn of events when people allow this to happen. We'll end up like Burnley and Oldham at this rate.

I can't believe the rubbish people are spouting here.

What is the problem with people wanting to live close to their families and friends?

We constantly complain about the lack of community and yet when second, third or even fourth generation immigrants work towards this they are accused of ghettoisation. Isn't this just sour grapes?

And why are areas with a high proportion of ethnic minorities no-go areas? It's only through the eyes of a racist that these areas are off-limits. Look at the attraction in London, Notting Hill, Brick Lane, China Town...

And concerning benefit fraud, I think you will find that the social stigma of relying on government funding is much greater in Asain communities. The true villians for milking the system and allowing their proporties to degenerate are absentee landlords.

Mattski

Originally posted by Internetowl
they are looking to create a non-white community [...] a sad turn of events when people allow this to happen.
I don't remember many people caring when the Chinese (and other ethnic minorities) created communities in cities... Birmingham for example has a huge 'China Town' area. It smacks of double standards that other, newer, ethnic minorities coming to England get such a hard time.

Also, look back at history and you will see that people have always grouped together in areas to start with, the Irish and Italians in New York are probably one of the most famous (i.e. in a lot of movies!) example of this. Living together in the same area allows you to slowly adopt as you can easily mix between the culture of your new country and that of your old. But go to America now and I think (!) you might find people of Irish and Italian 'heritage' living all over the place.

But oh no, this new 'lot' are never going to mix... (Incidentally, I'm sure that's probably what the New Yorkers thought about the Italians and the Irish ;) ).

Unfortunately, I'm sure some people won't bother to read or think about this post as it's far easier to pretend this is a 'new' issue.

Originally posted by Internetowl
they are looking to create a non-white community.

No they aren't. Read my post above. They wish to live close to family and friends...and want to make money (legally) too.

Originally posted by Internetowl
it will become a no-go area not unlike areas of Darnall and Fir Vale.

Have you ever been to those areas lately? They're hardly no-go areas for whites. Been reading the Daily Mail have we :loopy:
Yes, there is trouble with youths, but I suspect no more than white communities such as Shiregreen.

Originally posted by Internetowl
A sad turn of events when people allow this to happen. We'll end up like Burnley and Oldham at this rate.

Now you're really talking out of your backside. 'when people allow this to happen' Who allows it to happen? The so-called 'British natives' who sell their houses when they leave Sheffield? If I may remind you of what happened when the steel factories closed - the natives moved away, so the 'Asians' moved in to fill the gap.

What would you rather have? For the entire Page Hall, Firth Park and Fir Vale areas to become uninhabited and derelict? I'm an Arab, and while some of the actions of the Pakistani locals may annoy me, I'd sooner have them living there, owning business and contributing to the local economy instead of having all the houses empty and boarded up.

Of course, you may prefer it for the houses to stay derelict rather than be inhabited by 'Asians'

As mentioned in my post above, grouping together in communities actually allows people to integrate more smoothly. If you were to force people moving to England to live apart from each other, then you would end up with a lot of isolated and scared people who would probably lack the confidence (due to lack of peer support) to go out and get jobs, meet and interact with the 'natives :rolleyes: ', etc.

I wish people would stop trying to portray this as a new issue, people have always grouped together when moving to a new country, but that doesn't mean they won't eventually integrate to a level where we no longer even think about it. Which, lets be honest, is already the case for the majority of people ;)

Part of the problem with this country is racial segregation. Certain races insist on living in the same area. Maybe its because its near a church of their religion, maybe its to be near relatives, maybe near shops where they can buy the right food. Whatever the reason, they create their own community and in doing this keep themselves apart from the rest of the country. We all harp on about racism, well alot of it is because people haven't had a chance to actually live in harmony with other races. People have got to decide what they want, a multicultural society without racism? sounds great doesn't it. Or a separate way of living as if home from home, racial segregration, and what was the point of moving here then?
I know some asians who make every effort to be westernised and deliberately live in mixed areas, or 'white' areas in order to bring up their children in a 'normal' society so they are used to different colours and religions. They even move away as soon as more asians move into the area. Unfortunately, the majority are not bothered to intermingle and prefer to stay with their own, thus creating tension between communites. The schools in the area become asian schools and other areas end up being white only. How are children to learn to live in a multicultural society when races who were originally 'non-british' and came over to Britian don't even try to mix?

Thank you for your comments Foxxx, but I have to take issue with some of them:

Originally posted by Foxxx
Unfortunately, the majority are not bothered to intermingle and prefer to stay with their own, thus creating tension between communites. The schools in the area become asian schools and other areas end up being white only. How are children to learn to live in a multicultural society when races who were originally 'non-british' and came over to Britian don't even try to mix?

With the exception of a very few elders, most of the 'Asians' I know went to mixed schools, had 'white' friends, spoke english as a first language, wore western clothes, ate western food, chased white girls...how do you know the majority can't be bothered to intermingle? How do you define 'intermingling?'

Originally posted by Foxxx
I know some asians who make every effort to be westernised and deliberately live in mixed areas, or 'white' areas in order to bring up their children in a 'normal' society so they are used to different colours and religions.

And I try to bring up my children in this way, despite living in a mainly 'Asian' area. Of course, it only takes a single Islamophobe to condemn all Muslims as terrorist sympathisers to make me wonder why we try so hard in the first place

I agree with what Abdul has stated in all posts.
I have friends that live in Darnall, Family in Firvale and Pitsmoor and they are certainly not no go areas in any sense for white people.

It seems that underlying fears and prejudices placed by the media have strong effects on people (even today).

As max said before, they're more than likely looking for a home to be closer to family and friends. They feel safe because they're around familiar people and surroundings.

Don't allow prejudices that shouldn't exist today to overcloud the way you think guys.

I don't really understand this topic. Why do people feel that racial segragation is an issue?

I think it comes down to the fact the government press hard for a fully integrated society.

It's like if one group seperates itself from another (be white/black/asian/oriental/native american/martian etc) it's harder or less likely that the groups will ever fully integrate.

You comfortable ina surroundings and don't want to try and mix.
Now this isn't a fault on any one racial side, it's a fault on all.

I think we should be more integrated and less divided as personally it will appeal to a better and more racist free environment in the long run.

However I can understand the fears of some groups wanting to segregate themselves in the first instance.

It's a tough subject with arguments fore and against.

My Sister lived in Bahrain (middle east) for 5 years. I visited her 3 times. She lived in an "EX-Pat" Village. It's what people tend to do in other Countries

choosing a local area where the existing community will readily accept you is not the same as segragrating yourself.
I agree with Geoff, the support of this community is what allows people to have the confidence to mix with other less familiar people/communities.
As these communities age and the 2nd and 3rd generation grow up they are likely to disperse somewhat until there is no concentration in one area.
China town in Birmingham doesn't actually have much housing in it, so the reason it's called china town is now mainly historical (although chinese restaurants have a strong presence in the area). There is also a jewellers quarter and a gun quarter, both of which don't have much reason for the name these days.

That's a very good point cyclone.
And a view point which I will admit never crossed my mind originally, however it does make sense.

Originally posted by DaBouncer
That's a very good point cyclone. And a view point which I will admit never crossed my mind originally, however it does make sense.
? Which bit... he seemed to be agreeing with my point ;)

Cyclone: Yeah, I mentioned China Town as I remember going there several years ago to a friend's Chinese restaurant and being amazed by the number of rivals all around him! Similar to Soho I guess.

Originally posted by johnjo
My Sister lived in Bahrain (middle east) for 5 years. I visited her 3 times. She lived in an "EX-Pat" Village. It's what people tend to do in other Countries
Actually it was Johnjo's comment rather than Cyclones point which I didn't really think about.

However yes Cyclone does agree with you and you both make good points.

*mental note to self..... take more notice*

i'm happy to take credit for other peoples points. Any blame should be directed back the original point maker though.

they are looking to create a non-white community - it will become a no-go area not unlike areas of Darnall and Fir Vale. A sad turn of events when people allow this to happen. We'll end up like Burnley and Oldham at this rate. [/B]

Darnall and Fir Vale are not no go areas, but anyway..... I had many friends at school that were Asian, Pakistani and Arab. I found it was the elders that did not want to intergrate. My friend's mum and dad for example refused point blank to learn English. I feel they live in the same areas, as these are the cheaper parts of Sheffield.

Originally posted by Foxxx
IUnfortunately, the majority are not bothered to intermingle and prefer to stay with their own, thus creating tension between communites. The schools in the area become asian schools and other areas end up being white only.

Have you ever been to the Costa del Sol?

Originally posted by Foxxx
How are children to learn to live in a multicultural society when races who were originally 'non-british' and came over to Britian don't even try to mix?
Originally posted by johnjo
My Sister lived in Bahrain (middle east) for 5 years. I visited her 3 times. She lived in an "EX-Pat" Village. It's what people tend to do in other Countries

I rest my case.

i think you will find that ex pats in spain do try to fit in with the locals ie speaking spanish etc :thumbsup:

we all need to be more people friendly not race or religion.humans do, what humans,do unfortunetly

Originally posted by panda79
i think you will find that ex pats in spain do try to fit in with the locals ie speaking spanish etc :thumbsup:
.. and you'll probably also find that there's a large number of people from other cultures in this country who do the exact same thing... we just never get to hear about any of that because it's:
a) not newsworthy.
b) common sense...

And who's to blame them if they aren't friendly or they're suspicious of "us"... They've got the same kind of idiots telling them the same rubbish about "us" as we have about "them"...

Good grief.. it's a wonder we ever make it at all some days :P

Originally posted by Tony

I rest my case.

A couple of quotes from earlier posts by other people, plus the question "Have you ever been to the Costa del Sol?", hardly constitutes a "case" Tony.

I cannot believe it is the year 2004 . . yes, 2004! and there are people afraid of other cultures and communities, The Berlin Wall is no more, Pakistan & India are becoming closer, Europe now has another 10 countries!! the world has become a much closer place.

Why InternetOwl are you so afraid of change? have you been to the areas you talk about? Fir Vale has a great mixture of communities. You'll find there are Arabs, Chinese, Malaysians, English, Somali, American, African and even some Pakistani people there . . . . and guess what? - they all get on brilliantly, they appreciate each other for what they are not who they are.

I suggest you get out abit more Internetowl, you're living in the 18th century.

Originally posted by Martin_s
.. and you'll probably also find that there's a large number of people from other cultures in this country who do the exact same thing... we just never get to hear about any of that because it's:
a) not newsworthy.
b) common sense...

And who's to blame them if they aren't friendly or they're suspicious of "us"... They've got the same kind of idiots telling them the same rubbish about "us" as we have about "them"...

Good grief.. it's a wonder we ever make it at all some days :P

Well put my friend.

It's amazing how the press seems to run our country and our opinions

pakistan and india are closer. To what, nuclear war?

Originally posted by Cyclone
pakistan and india are closer. To what, nuclear war?

You can't blame the citizens for the misdeeds of the governments.

It wasn't that long ago that the first PIA in years was greeted on Indian soil and every passenger was given a garland of flowers as they stepped off. Most of the border passes are now letting Pakistan buses through, the first Pakistan/India test match was played in Pakistan only last month!
Surely this is good news?

why is a Asian comunity a problem? if Asians want to live there then let them live there! natives dont specifically live in all white areas or vica versa.

some people move to a new house because their parents are ill? some because of a better school some because its a nicer place than they are living in at the minute.

if you wan to live in a place why should you be denied the right to?

'just because it has more of one colour than the other?'

if that is what our society is coming to i dont want to be in it!

Originally posted by Abdul
Thank you for your comments Foxxx, but I have to take issue with some of them:



With the exception of a very few elders, most of the 'Asians' I know went to mixed schools, had 'white' friends, spoke english as a first language, wore western clothes, ate western food, chased white girls...how do you know the majority can't be bothered to intermingle? How do you define 'intermingling?'



And I try to bring up my children in this way, despite living in a mainly 'Asian' area. Of course, it only takes a single Islamophobe to condemn all Muslims as terrorist sympathisers to make me wonder why we try so hard in the first place

If you have taken issue with some of my comments, let me explain, my comments aren't supposed to be offensive btw.

It sounds as though you have been in a situation where most of your friends went to mixed schools, spoke English as first language etc etc. That's cool and that it what I was talking about in the second part of my post. They are people from other races who do. I have asians friends, chinese, indian, pakistani etc etc who do exactly that, however I do know areas where this does not happen and there are many areas like this around the country. My friend teaches in a school in Darnall and she said there is hardly any white pupils there and she has had to learn another language, sorry don't know how to spell it (erdu?? that's how she pronounces it). I think this is odd since these children are living in Britain and should surely be encouraged to speak English? So that they can integrate with the rest of this country?

I was also watching a documentary a while back about bradford and it showed an area where it is completely asian and the children at the all asian school were 8 years old and had never met a white child! On top of that they didn't watch UK TV at home, only foreign asian channels. I was pretty shocked by this to be honest. The documentary showed how the kids were bused over to the other side of the city to meet white children for the first time at another school. The kids were very bemused by white skin as they had never interacted with or seen white children having lived here for 8 years! At the predominantly white school there were some asian pupils so the white children had already met asian children.
I'm not saying that it is right or wrong, I'm just saying this is racial segregation, and it is known to lead to problems.
I used to live in London, and this had many areas that were racially segregated. Chinese, indian, pakistani, maltese, italian, black, whatever but there are big areas notorious for segregation.

Intermingling, I would define as living in mixed areas, going to mixed schools where British culture is taught and different religions in RE. Being friends with different groups not hanging round only with your own kind at all times.
I know this is not as easy as it sounds because unfortunatley there is racism which can lead to racial segregation, but I would say the majority of the people in this country don't have a problem with mixing. I certainly don't.

Originally posted by Fletch
why is a Asian comunity a problem? if Asians want to live there then let them live there! natives dont specifically live in all white areas or vica versa.



I don't have a problem with it personally, each to their own I say, however the problem with it is, it creates an us and them situation, which invariably leads to racism.
White people living in the area, feel like they are being pushed out so blame it on 'the asians'.

Originally posted by Tony
Have you ever been to the Costa del Sol?




I rest my case.

No I haven't, but I know exactly what you are saying and this does happen - ex-pats creating a little community of their own. This is segregation also, and I'm sure the locals will probably slag off the brits for doing it.

There are Brits however who make every effort to intermingle with the locals and learn the language etc.

My mum lives in Gozo in a normal street and has many many local friends, has done voluntary work at the school so has met the children of the village and their parents. My mum takes maltese language classes, and respects their catholic culture even though she is an atheist!

Originally posted by Foxxx
There are Brits however who make every effort to intermingle with the locals and learn the language etc.
I think that's sort of the point though Foxxx.. There are those that will intermingle and those that won't... Same as in most other cultures I'm sure...

At the end of the day it often comes down to the individual with some leeway for cultural influences... but every culture has its rebels and adherents.. such is life :)

Originally posted by Martin_s
I think that's sort of the point though Foxxx.. There are those that will intermingle and those that won't... Same as in most other cultures I'm sure...

At the end of the day it often comes down to the individual with some leeway for cultural influences... but every culture has its rebels and adherents.. such is life :)

I think the main difference is that people who move to Spain if retiring support themselves. People who go there to live and work, can do so as an EU citizen and still have a British passport.

I think the argument we are talking about above is that people have come here from other countries e.g. asylum seekers over the years and gain british citizenship and hold a british passport so should try to integrate more into the society.

I think bringing up costa de sol is a good example of Brits not integrating, but it's slightly different to what we are discussing about racial segregation.

Originally posted by Tony


I rest my case.

Case not exactly rested. She went to Middle east to work on a British passport. She wasn't trying to live there forever as a citizen was she?

It's like if I got a secondment from work to another country, I'd prob stay with others that I knew from work who spoke English as I'd be there to do a job. Not necessarily there because I wanted to live in that country forever. While there I'd try to learn the language though and I'd respect the local laws and religions.

Originally posted by Foxxx
I think bringing up costa de sol is a good example of Brits not integrating, but it's slightly different to what we are discussing about racial segregation.

Either I'm obtuse or you have a problem explaining things. How is is different? People from one race chosing not to integrate in their chosen country is exactly the same irrespective of the country. Or is it just because it's happening in Britain that you have a problem with it?

Originally posted by max
Either I'm obtuse or you have a problem explaining things. How is is different? People from one race chosing not to integrate in their chosen country is exactly the same irrespective of the country. Or is it just because it's happening in Britain that you have a problem with it?

If you read my above posts you'll see I don't have a problem with it. So please don't say I do! I have stated that racial segregation in this country occurs and some people do have a problem with it and it leads to racial tension and hence racism.

My point is, the examples others have brought up are different because it is not about moving to another country and taking up that countries passport. i.e. you can be asian (black, white, yellow whatever) origin but have become British. So living in an area where you go to an asian school and don't learn to integrate with the rest of the country seems odd to me (see example of the school my friend teaches in and the example of the Bradford documentary where asians children hadn't ever met a white person).

What I'm saying is, Brits might move abroad for jobs but they aren't claiming asylum or wanting to change their nationality. I'm agreeing that they might segregate themselves which the locals might not like, but it is different.

We're talking about Britian because we live here, I'm sure other countries have their own issues, but we were talking about asians buying houses in the same areas in this thread.

Foxxx is right to say that some will integrate and others won't. My Mum is an immigrant, and has lived in the UK for 27 years. But is was only in the last two years that she has actually felt "British" (whatever that means), and has taken up citizenship and a British passport. She might be able to vote now, but it doesn't mean that she was any less of an asset to society before that.

my SO's parents both immigrated to Manchester in the 60's (Chinese) and lived in a primarily chinese area, and opened a business in china town and sent their children to chinese school at the weekends.
Their children are british and live wherever they feel like (London*2, Sheffield and at uni in Manchester).
This same dispersal will happen with 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants from any source.