The three subjects whizzing through my head at the moment all rolled into one thread.

At the moment I think that Britain is rapidly declining (going down the sh***er) in respect to the moral standards exhibited by many people in our society.
Here are a few examples of scum:

a) People who live off of benefits and make no attempt to become employed and have 4 kids who will probably grow up to become layabouts who live off of benefits.

b) People who don't punish their kids and allow them to do what they want at the expense of others.

c) Parents who don't raise their children to have morals and respect others and their surroundings.

Think about it, your average chav will probably have quite a few kids by the time they mature. These kids will then probably grow up to become big chavs with little chavs of their own, and so on.

Eventually scum are going to outnumber decent people which is why I think that Britain should introduce population controls and parenting classes to try and slow this process down.

Afterall we are a small island and our resources and space aren't gonna last forever. I think that we should have a system which is similar to certain countries in the far east, where each family is allowed to have one or two kids and if they wish to have any more kids after that then they should have to pay a large tax each year until the child is eighteen.

I also think that people who are a nusience to others should have their benefits stopped indefinatly and should lose their right to rent a house from the council.

Problem parents or parents of problem children should be forced to attend parenting classes and if they do not show up for three classes then their kids should be taken away.

There I said it.

P.s. I'm not trying to start any trouble here I just think that the something has to be done. Feel free to disagree people. :D

The three subjects whizzing through my head at the moment all rolled into one thread.

At the moment I think that Britain is rapidly declining (going down the sh***er) in respect to the moral standards exhibited by many people in our society.
Here are a few examples of scum:

a) People who live off of benefits and make no attempt to become employed and have 4 kids who will probably grow up to become layabouts who live off of benefits.

b) People who don't punish their kids and allow them to do what they want at the expense of others.

c) Parents who don't raise their children to have morals and respect others and their surroundings.

Think about it, your average chav will probably have quite a few kids by the time they mature. These kids will then probably grow up to become big chavs with little chavs of their own, and so on.

Eventually scum are going to outnumber decent people which is why I think that Britain should introduce population controls and parenting classes to try and slow this process down.

Afterall we are a small island and our resources and space aren't gonna last forever. I think that we should have a system which is similar to certain countries in the far east, where each family is allowed to have one or two kids and if they wish to have any more kids after that then they should have to pay a large tax each year until the child is eighteen.

I also think that people who are a nusience to others should have their benefits stopped indefinatly and should lose their right to rent a house from the council.

Problem parents or parents of problem children should be forced to attend parenting classes and if they do not show up for three classes then their kids should be taken away.

There I said it.

P.s. I'm not trying to start any trouble here I just think that the something has to be done. Feel free to disagree people. :D


2 points..............mainly :P

the parenting classes is a good idea, not sure about the taking kids away bit tho.

taking away benefits and housing etc is never an answer, it just makes things wors, people become homeless so they become a bigger nuisance, people with no money turn to crime........more of a nuisance

Why don't we give you the power to strerilise everyone you don't like? I think that would solve every problem wouldn't it?

Afterall we are a small island and our resources and space aren't gonna last forever. I think that we should have a system which is similar to certain countries in the far east, where each family is allowed to have one or two kids and if they wish to have any more kids after that then they should have to pay a large tax each year until the child is eighteen.


I think we should try to copy as many things from the far east as we can. For a start, why not have the country run by the communist partry and lock up (or shoot) anyone who disagrees. Perhaps we could build more railways using slave labour?

In fact the population is getting older and what we need is more children. In that case I would propose killing people at 60 (until I am 59 that is) and paying people a massive subsidy for having more children. Alternatively we could see having children as a basic human right and leave things much as they are.

Why don't we give you the power to strerilise everyone you don't like? I think that would solve every problem wouldn't it?

Yes. Oh yes please.

isn't it illegal now to punish your children? Blairs nanny state coming back to haunt him as crime figures soar to record highs.

I also think that people who are a nusience to others should have their benefits stopped indefinatly and should lose their right to rent a house from the council.

Your point, which I quote above, SHOULD read:

"I also think that people who are a nusience to others should have their benefits stopped indefinatly provided they are on benefits and should lose their right to rent a house from the council provided they do rent from the council"

- because where I live, the vast majority of unruly, antisocial kids belong to equally obnoxious parents who are employed owner-occupiers.

But I do agree with your post on principle.

People have been worried about the overpopulation of the lower classes since the 1800's, and its never really happened, has it?

Shock stories are often in the papers about people on benefits with 8 kids but I don't know that it happens that often, and for every person on benefits it happens to theres some middle class 'earth mother' type with 6 kids of her own.

I think its a bit of a misconception to be honest, and also quite snobby. Money does not a good parent make. Being rich doesn't give you morals and being on benefits or family credits doesn't mean you're not going to bring your children up with values.

People have been worried about the overpopulation of the lower classes since the 1800's, and its never really happened, has it?


I think you'll find it's happening right now.

The government is seriously worried about the dropping numbers of educated, middle-class women who are planning to have children - or rather who are NOT planning to have children.

The sound of the 'marching morons' is getting louder and louder.....

StarSparkle

rusted root
what on earth is happening in your avatar :o :o :o

back on subject-i agree with kathythebean-it is wrong to make the kind of sweeping generalisations regarding parents on benefits-in many ways i am jealous of such parents as they are with their kids on a fulltime basis and not leaving them with other people/childminders/nurseries etc
who's to say that the breakdown in the nuclear families and the fact that fewer children have a mum/dad at home with them,is to blame for the decline in morals/behaviour etc??? :confused:

average number of children per pair of parents in the country stands at 1.3.
Do the maths, we aren't going to have any sort of over population problem.

I think you'll find it's happening right now.

The government is seriously worried about the dropping numbers of educated, middle-class women who are planning to have children - or rather who are NOT planning to have children.

StarSparkle

My point was - the government have been scaremongering about this, for literally centuries, 'the masses' over-breeding and taking over. Its always been used as an excuse to try and control womens fertilities, for example with abortion politics. The only other option is to say to some women, you can't have children, and to others, you must have children, which is surely unacceptable.


The sound of the 'marching morons' is getting louder and louder.....

Not much of a socialist, are you?

People have been worried about the overpopulation of the lower classes since the 1800's, and its never really happened, has it?

Shock stories are often in the papers about people on benefits with 8 kids but I don't know that it happens that often, and for every person on benefits it happens to theres some middle class 'earth mother' type with 6 kids of her own.

I think its a bit of a misconception to be honest, and also quite snobby. Money does not a good parent make. Being rich doesn't give you morals and being on benefits or family credits doesn't mean you're not going to bring your children up with values.


i think you'll find teenage pregnacy rates weren't so high in the 1800's

i think you'll find teenage pregnacy rates weren't so high in the 1800's

Err...

I think you'll find in the 1800s most people had their children in their teens or early twenties.

i think you'll find teenage pregnacy rates weren't so high in the 1800's

we actually have the lowest teen pregnancy rates since we began recording such things. It's just that ours have fallen slower than europes.

Besides - teenage pregnancy rates don't mean anything. There are such things as middle class teenagers, no?

Err...

I think you'll find in the 1800s most people had their children in their teens or early twenties.

not the point i was trying to make, in the 1800 they were probably married to the father and knew how to bring the kids up properly

Well, it appears we have a government almost hell bent in preventing people going to prison, dreaming up useless ideas like ASBOs, CRASBOs and NETTOs (that last one was a joke).

Somewhere along the way, most disciplinary measures have been removed at school. Now this government is quickly trying to repair their undoing by issuing new laws in a bid to improve things. Too little, too late. Respect should begin in the home and be honed at school.

Also, the abolition of corporal punishment has created a scenario where if kids do wrong, they know there is nothing that the teachers in school can do. Infact, a teacher only has to look at a troublemaker before the courts are onto him, 'human rights' this, 'civil rights' that. Thus, teachers are not only powerless but are sitting ducks in their profession.

As for the law, just where are the police? We now have a 'hands-off' police force - not hands-off as in deepest China where shoplifters might lose their dannies - but I get the impression that the police are as frightened as you and I in addressing serious social problems. 'Petty crime?' Sorry guv, there's no such thing.

'Tough on crime, tough on the course of crime' bleated a younger Tony Blair. Depends if you're the victim or the aggressor, Mr Prime Minister.

Well I'm all for changing the structure of the justice system and bringing younger kids into line and more powers for teachers and all the other stuff you mentioned ousetunes, but the OP was talking about 'population control' and like a one family one child policy which I really hate the idea of, although I do think that parenting courses are an ace idea.

Well I'm all for changing the structure of the justice system and bringing younger kids into line and more powers for teachers and all the other stuff you mentioned ousetunes, but the OP was talking about 'population control' and like a one family one child policy which I really hate the idea of, although I do think that parenting courses are an ace idea.


well said, population control does seem a bit "big brother" (orwell not endemol)

isn't it illegal now to punish your children? Blairs nanny state coming back to haunt him as crime figures soar to record highs.
It's not illegal to punish children. There are more effective ways to discipline children than by thrashing them (which I assume you're referring to).
Don't you ever watch Supernanny?

Looks like most people are in favour of parenting classes then!

Unfortunately, unless they are forced to go, the people who need them most probably wouldn't turn up. Standards of behaviour, attitudes and morals do tend to be passed down through families as learned behaviour.

In my dim and distant youth, and even when my kids were young in the 70s/80s, when children misbehaved, and the parents were told, they usually punished the kid - now you're likely to get a mouthful for daring to suggest that 'their Klint' is anything other than an angel.

It's not illegal to punish children. There are more effective ways to discipline children than by thrashing them (which I assume you're referring to).
Don't you ever watch Supernanny?

SIT ON THE NORTY STEP INTERNETOWL :P

Mmm .. Parenting classes. Possibly something to be put on the Y11 curriculum?

School has a lot to do with the social development of children. A firm but fair school which has strict discipline would be a help. Instead of the "call me Russ!" attitude to getting on with 'the kids'.

But then again my son came home today after a lesson with a guest teacher 'Claire' with .. get ready for this. A YOGA cd. With guided visualisations and relaxation tracks. He loves it! (wierd?) He plonked himself on the floor and chilled out for 15 mins and insisted his 7 yr old brother participated. Heaven :)

Its all about respect, I have found that the most obnoxious child when in the right surroundings and atmosphere, given guidelines and rules will behave appropriately.

This last Saturday morning, my son and I made our monthly trek to Costco. My nineteen year old niece accompanied us. Once inside, we notice two boys, one about 15, the other about 11, obviously brothers. They were in the clothing section, trying on shoes and holding up T-shirts, bathing suits and shorts against themselves to see what fits. We paid them little attention.

About 20 minutes later, we see the same two brothers, lounging on the patio furniture, which is clearly marked KEEP OFF. They are now WEARING the clothes and shoes they were messing around with earlier. ALL of the anti-theft tags have been removed from said clothing. Both of them look me right in the eye with defiant, "we effin DARE you to fink on us lady" looks on their faces. I felt like I was starin' down the barrel of a gun. They clearly know that WE know they are stealing. We say nothing and keep walking.

Several things crossed my mind. First of all, how sad that parents do not properly clothe their kids, and the kids have to resort to this. It would be a cold day in hell the day that one of MY kids ever wants for a swim suit or pair of shoes. How irresponsible and negligent that parents either don't make an effort to properly care for their kids, or they spend their money on other things instead of taking care of their children's needs. Or, God forbid, they actually encourage the kids to go out and just take what they need, and when they bring it home, no questions are asked.

That said, I thought about these two boys all weekend. I know nothing about their situation. Perhaps they don't even live with their parents. Maybe with some overwhelmed grandparent. Maybe they are foster kids or in a group home, and some "guardian" is spending the money meant for the children on themselves. Both of them looked like they were getting enough to eat, but they could have used baths and haircuts. But then my niece reminded me that Costco is a membership store, so they must have come in with someone who is a member.

I am filled with a longing to kick the CRAP out of the two people who brought these boys into the world and are neglecting their duty to raise them right. Right now they're kids, and someone else is supposed to be responsible for them. But they'll be adults one day, and it will be THEM who pays the price for their lousy behavior, not the people who should have taught them better.

:rant: Sierra

They are now WEARING the clothes and shoes they were messing around with earlier. ALL of the anti-theft tags have been removed from said clothing. Both of them look me right in the eye with defiant, "we effin DARE you to fink on us lady" looks on their faces. I felt like I was starin' down the barrel of a gun. They clearly know that WE know they are stealing. We say nothing and keep walking

So these boys who could have been taught a lesson and an intervention made early.. walked away as thieves. Not only did they walk away, they left with the assumption that they will be able to get away with it because the general public will turn their head rather than do the right thing. :rant:

Irrespective of their personal cirumstances, all you had to do was quietly mention it to a member of staff as you were leaving. You by your inaction condoned their theft! No wonder they continue to do it if everyone turns the other cheek.

fox, your way would have been kinder. I seriously considered it, but I didn't, and this is why.

When you leave a Costco, there are two attendants on either side of the exit. And the entrance. There is ONLY one way in, and one way out. They stop EVERYONE. One reason is, being a membership store, they ask you for your Costco card on the way in, and when you leave, they ask you again, and they physically check your receipt against the items you have in your basket, and then mark your receipt. The odds of those boys leaving the premises wearing brand new, never been washed clothing, with the tags hastily torn off, (and the exact same items on the shelves if anyone wants to check) isn't very good. I've seen other kids (it's always kids, adults know better) try to sneak digital cameras, cell phones, iPods etc. which were on display out the door, and it can't be done. The employees make an enormous fuss over it, and the persons attempting to shoplift are thoroughly humiliated in front of everyone. If there are adults along, there's some tough questions for them as well. And Costco WILL call the police. In California, even minors can be charged with attempt to shoplift.

Both my niece and my son wanted to do as you suggested, but I said NO. Let them try and get past the people at the door, and without a receipt. Aint happenin'. Maybe being embarrassed to death will make them think twice next time. I got the impression that they've done this before, but obviously never at Costco.

I still felt bad for them. I'm sure that if they had the money, they wouldn't be stealing. And it's not like they were stealing video games, or toys, or jewelry. They were stealing clothes. That's sad.

:) Sierra

Why don't we give you the power to strerilise everyone you don't like? I think that would solve every problem wouldn't it?

That raises a good point.

Should we not sterilise habitual criminals, or those who commit single crimes of particular natures?

That raises a good point.

Should we not sterilise habitual criminals, or those who commit single crimes of particular natures?

James Whale had this idea. All little boys should be sterilised at birth :confused: and then they had to apply for a reversal and prove they would be fit to parent a child. A sort of GCSE in parenthood. Prove morals and income before you get the reversal. :hihi:

James Whale had this idea. All little boys should be sterilised at birth :confused: and then they had to apply for a reversal and prove they would be fit to parent a child. A sort of GCSE in parenthood. Prove morals and income before you get the reversal. :hihi:

I don't have a problem with that. We used to need licenses to keep a dog, but any cretin can just go and breed irrespective of whether they're capable of looking after a child, or suitable as either a guidng influence or provider of genes. That's wrong in my book.

That raises a good point.

Should we not sterilise habitual criminals, or those who commit single crimes of particular natures?


The Swedes sterilised about 60,000 people until the 70s on the grounds of having "undesirable" racial characteristics or otherwise "inferior" qualities, such as very poor eyesight, mental retardation, or an "unhealthy sexual appetite." Most were in mental institutions–although by today's standards many would not be considered to be mentally ill–or in reform schools.

They were not alone in this practice and perhaps it would be instructive to know why they stopped.

They were not alone in this practice

USA, Canada, Australia, Norway, Finland, Estonia, Slovakia, Switzerland, Iceland, and some countries in Latin America (including Panama) had eugenics programmes too.