Noticed the front page of one of the papers today are talking about the increasing numbers of women who are demanding a ceasarean birth.

Ceasareans are traditionally only carried out when there is a medical need ie the life of the mother and/or baby would be at risk.

Seems that many women today want ot have the baby when they want it so that it can fit around their busy schedules and then there are those who are considered 'too posh to push' and don't want their bits and pieces damaging by natural childbirth, albeit temporary.

Should the NHS charge up to £5k per requested ceasarean as one paper was headlining? Personally I think that a charge should be made if there is no medical need. Why should the NHS foot the bill for unnecessary procedures?

Does it cost a whole lot more for the procedure?

Originally posted by DaBouncer
Does it cost a whole lot more for the procedure?

I don't know but I should imagine it will. Most women deliver without any problems whatsoever and the only attendant she will have is the midwife. Of course the baby has to be checked by a peadiatrician but for most people that is it.

On the other hand a ceasarean is a major operation and as such employs a whole team of medics.

I would think that there would be a big difference in cost.

I don't really feel qualified to comment on whether this is right or not.

I think the phrase "Too posh to push" was coined for this.

Personally i would charge women who want to have caesareans for no genuine medical reason, but being a man i hope i would never have to experience that kind of pain. I guess if i could avoid the pain i would pay too.

Wilf

If a patient is dictating how the treatment is to be conducted for reasons other than those based on medical need it seems fair to charge if it's far more expensive.

It's strange how times have changed though, as 20-30 years ago the debate was about Medics unnecessarily resorting to Ceasarian section for reasons of expediency and their own convenience. Mothers were often pressured into having them even when they had reservations about it. (Doctor knows best!)

I'm not sure about this one,i do think patients don't get enough information about either procedure to be be able to make an informed decision.

Originally posted by sarah d
I'm not sure about this one,i do think patients don't get enough information about either procedure to be be able to make an informed decision.

Thats the point. Should it be an option?

Women are designed to give birth. It's the most natural thing in the world.

You soon forget about the pain when you see the product of your labours.

I have been listening to this story most of the morning on the radio.

Most people are just too soft. My nan had six children without any pain relief whatso ever and if it wasn't for women like her, most of us wouldn't be here now because the population would have been seriously affected.

I do not see why we should have to foot the bill for those who choose to go thru such a procedure when they have all they need right there in their own bodies to do it for less.

I personally fought hard to avoid the procedure first time round due to pushy doctors and would only consider it if both me and the baby were in danger. Be damned if they come near me with an epidural too.

Those who have a genuine medical reason or require one in an emergency should be given the procedure for free otherwise there is no need and they should pay.

Moon

Doesn't it spoil sex afterwards?This is pure ignorance speaking as i have no knowledge of the subject matter.

Originally posted by sarah d
Doesn't it spoil sex afterwards?

I wouldn't have thought that was a mothers priority after she's just given birth :D

it's usually the man's!

:D

I walked into that one, didn't I?

My vote for post of the month :thumbsup:

Its pretty major abdominal surgery so I think that for a while at least sex would be off the menu along with such strenuous activities as well standing up or walking! No real reason why it should affect sex once you are healed though as it goes into the womb which is rather higher than the average penis will reach!

Flip as these remarks are they do raise one interesting point - a ceasarean is pretty major surgery and opens up the abdominal cavity to potentially many types of infection none of which are exactly desireable - so if its not medically necesary aren't you actually endangering yourself if you opt for a ceasarean?

Originally posted by sarah d
Doesn't it spoil sex afterwards?This is pure ignorance speaking as ihave no knowledge of the subject matter.I know that my mum nearly handed by younger brother back to the nurse after she had to have forceps and lots of stitches.

When you have a new baby, especially one that cries a lot and won't sleep, not to mention the 2 hourly feeds then sex is the last thing on your mind. You would give anything for a couple of hours undisturbed sleep. Sex comes very low on your list of priorities.

But, here is the good news, things do get back to normal pretty soon.

i think they should only be available free for medical reasons. if its jus somethin of your choosin you should have to pay.

labour aint that bad really but then again maybe i was jus lucky! lol and as someone else said you soon forget the pain anyway.

Originally posted by evildrneil
.......so if its not medically necesary aren't you actually endangering yourself if you opt for a ceasarean?
An interesting point, what with MRSA in hospitals being a major problem. It seems that these infections are being massively under-reported across the NHS.

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
An interesting point, what with MRSA in hospitals being a major problem. It seems that these infections are being massively under-reported across the NHS.

It was recently reported that doctors are unknowingly spreading infection by not cleaning their stethoscopes between patients and it was the MRSA infection that was mentioned.

A ceasarean saved mine and my Mum's lives.... So you can imagine I'm a little touchy about the whole subject.... My view is that it ties up lots of medical staff which the NHS don't have... So if a woman requesting a caesarian has the staff performing it, what would happen if a woman came into difficulties suddenly, as my Mother did and needed the caesarian operation there and then.... There are only so many doctors available and if the're all tied up with women who are "too posh to push" so to speak, they can hardly leave the job half done and go and perform the operation on someone who really needs it can they?

How many medical staff does it take to have a ceaserean? Natural childbirth can be done with as little as two midwives.

And are women really doing it because they're 'too push to push'? I don't want this thread to denegerate into a class war...but I would like to know.

How does the ratio of women having ceaserians tally up with the number of women having 'trendy' three wheeler buggies, for instance ;)

Originally posted by Abdul

And are women really doing it because they're 'too push to push'? I don't want this thread to denegerate into a class war...but I would like to know.

How does the ratio of women having ceaserians tally up with the number of women having 'trendy' three wheeler buggies, for instance ;)

Abdul, please don't go there :D

One of the other things to consider is that as the trend towards caesareans increases, so is expertise in natural births reduced. For example, there are now very few doctors who can handle a breech birth well. Fortunately for us there was a visiting consultant from another European country when we discovered our daughter was breeched. Given that it was too late for a section, it was a relief he was there. Most of the staff agreed that in 10 or so years time the lack of expertise will be so bad that mortality might actually increase if you miss a section!

Apparently women are finding it harder to give birth now and increasingly things like forceps are used and babies are at risk due to long drawn out births.It's not that women are too posh to push, but that the pushing just isn't working!This "too posh to push" thing seems to be how a lot of people descibe the women who choose to have caesereans but they are only a small percentage of the cases that occur.They just seem to get all of the attention.As for whether women should pay i have no idea!

Interesting comments, nice to see some adult responses on this issue.

Personally - as a man - I believe there should be a charge for what I would deem fashionable sections, the 'Too Posh to Push' deliveries as they are being termed. And I reckon £5k sounds reasonable. (Now there's a new line for Loan adverts: 'Need a loan for your next Caesarian Section?').

My wife endured two emergency sections but only after going through hours of pushing for a natural delivery. Particularly with our youngest daughter things were getting pretty scary. Fortunately, she was whisked into theatre where the surgeons and nurses etc were out of this world. There must have been around 7 people tending to my wife. These people deserve to be on top rate wages!!

Moreover, I don't believe having a baby is something you should just fit into your calendar. Too posh to push? Posh enough to fork out five grand then maybe?

Incidentally, my wife stressed that the epidural was fantastic. So maybe there's another reason to try and give birth naturally. Oh, and no, we're not planning on having anymore kids. We have been blessed with two wonderful girls.

For any one that is really interested about this debate there is a very good article in the Guardian about the upsurge in caesareans and how the fall in midwifery is partly to blame.

I guess I am lucky really. I have two children and had natural, very quick births with both with no pain relief or anything. My son was a big baby and was premature. Because of his size and the fact he was 5 weeks prem, the docs were champing at the bit to give me a section as soon as I got to the hospital. I had to argue the case for not having one as I didn't see any real reason to do it. They tried to scare me into having one by saying there could be complications but I refused. In the end they let me have my way and by the time I was up in the delivery room, it was only 10 minutes and he popped out!!

Now I am not that daft that if something had started to go wrong that I would have refused. I DIDN'T need a section and there were no complications at all.

I think that sometimes doctors can be too keen to do a section when it may not be neccessary.

Originally posted by sarah d
For any one that is really interested about this debate there is a very good article in the Guardian about the upsurge in caesareans and how the fall in midwifery is partly to blame.

I'm pleased to see you managed to understand the point of the article (because I certainly didn't). I thought it was just another pro-womens choice rant.

Anyway, here's the article:

Cut it out - Do women have the right to a caesarean? (http://www.guardian.co.uk/medicine/story/0,11381,1205566,00.html)

EDIT - Sorry sarah d. There were in fact two articles on the Guardian website about this. The opinion above, and the leader article here (which did make a lot more sense ;) )

Cutting argument - Guardian Leader (http://www.guardian.co.uk/leaders/story/0,3604,1205639,00.html)

It's not a rant,it just gives possible reasons why there is an upsurge and possible solutions.It is in favour of well-informed choices though.

I really don't think that the pushing isn't working. I think that the whole process of how pregnancy and birth is being dealt with needs to be re-thought.
How many of the women here gave birth on their back? How many of the women here were tied to the bed with monitoring equipment unable to move and allow gravity to help the little chap/ess out?
How many women here have been frightened or forced by medical staff into taking treatments that hinder not help the process?

With my first child I had to go to theatre after I had delivered him because of more complications and spent 1/2 hour arguing with a midwife over whether I would be having an epidural or not. If it wasn't for the fact I was exhausted after a 12 hour labour I would have put the ***** thru the wall. Especially when I found out later it was mainly because they couldn't be bothered to monitor me on her ward if I was put under. (hurrah for me mother the nurse with big ears). This I may add was just the tip of the iceberg in relation to selfish cock ups the entire team made.

I know in many hosptials there are staff who are really looking out for the best interests of the mother and child, but there are still lazy and irresponsible workers out there. The rules need to be changed to help sort out these spanners.

Sorry it is a sore point :(

Moon

I saw on the telly it costs an extra £1500 for the surgery. I think if the opinion is for surgery when the medical staff say its not necessary then the extra costs should be payable by the parents. I would have told my wife to get on with it, if she asked for the op but everything went well naturally.

You have to have the choice, people are softer these days, no doubt about it, and so we must constantly change to meet the new challenges.

Moon Maiden - your spot on - there is something wrong with the methods imposed on women when giving birth, especially the first time when it is very scary and you don't really understand what is going on but the medics do - more care should be taken to ensure things happen the way you want as much as possible. Something as simple as having your own music playing or something like that.
The midwife who was present (i use that term in the loosest possible sense) at my daughters birth barely looked at me for hours didn't bother asking if I wanted any pain relief etc
thing is so long as both you and the baby are fine at the end it doesn't seem right to complain because you are so thankful for what you have.

Is there any evidence to suggest that c-sections make it harder to bond with the baby / produce milk or anything else?
Despite all the troubles natural chilbirth can bring I do not understand why any woman would not choose it.

I think there should be a charge if it is not a medical necesisity(excuse spelling).It should not be a 'career choice' for a woman to fit the birth in around her lifestyle.

As a father to 2 children,and was present at both births for the duration,(19 hours 1st one,13 hors 2nd),I wouldn't have missed both of them for anything,so maybe the fathers of the 'too posh' mothers should be consulted.

Well for me there would be no choice. Having had a large baby (10lb 2oz) naturally and having just had major abdominal surgery i know i would much rather give birth naturally.

I don't see how anyone could bond in anyway with a new baby having had a c-section because you cannot move, hold anything near you, or lift anything. You are not supposed to do anything (at all) for 3 weeks, so how do you look after a baby when like this without causing damage to yourself by doing things that you have been told not to.

My childbirth was not perfect, i was induced, had a long labour, an epidural (and my back has never been right since) and i had many stitches but i could get out of bed and move about and look after my son. I am not mad enough to do it again, but you do forget the worse bits in time. Two days after having him I went around to see a lady who had been on the ward with me before but had gone to have her c-section on the same day as i had Mo and had a planned c-section for medical reasons and her husband told me she was still coming round properly and had still not seen her son.

I really don't understand how women would choose to have a ceasarean, because they are 'too posh to push'. And if they are mad enough to choose to do so for none medical reasons then they should pay, a lot.

Originally posted by sarah d
Apparently women are finding it harder to give birth now

Sarah, that's interesting. What's the reason? Women today are physically larger than they were even a 100 years ago and I'd imagine that the pelvic girdle was also proportionately larger as well. It's not debased delivery skills that's the problem is it?

Victoria Beckham is used as a celeb example of being too posh(!) to push. She seems the sort that may find the natural method rather hard work and may be being alluded to by Abdul......
Originally posted by Abdul
How does the ratio of women having ceaserians tally up with the number of women having 'trendy' three wheeler buggies, for instance ;) ... in Posh's case that'd be a motorised and gold-plated three wheeler buggy, would it?

Originally posted by sarah d
Doesn't it spoil sex afterwards?
Err, didn't spoil it for me! (said tentatively)

To be serious again, I understand that c-sections weaken the muscles of the abdominal wall and that to have more than one can result in permanent weakness. Throw in a chance of scepticaemia or MRSA infection and you have to ask why (if not for good medical reasons) The same question to be put to any member of NHS staff who may think that it's a handy way to get off on time! (as has been alleged from time to time)

Interesting to note that the people who are against abortion are also the ones against unnecessary ceaserians.

It is because they see children as a gift, rather than a fashion accessory or temporary career pause?

(Oh dear, I am in trouble now)

Dear Ned,the stuff about women finding it more difficult is from todays Guardian.I don't have any experience of this stuff myself so i have to find out info from others before i even contemplate having kids.The sex stuff i was asking about was meant to be after a normal birth not a caesarean,the idea of never being right again is a bit scary,maybe that's why some people have it done.There just isn't enough info.

Originally posted by sarah d
The sex stuff i was asking about was meant to be after a normal birth not a caesarean
iknow, I was only joshing!:thumbsup:

Well as a student midwife, I can safely say that the majority of midwives are really disheartened about the current trend towards elective caesarean sections. It ties in with the whole culture of medicalised childbirth at the moment, which many midwives are trying to undo, however working in a large consultant-led unit it is often a real battle.

There are sooo many points in this topic that I'd like to add my thoughts on, but having worked a 14 hour shift today I don't think my fingers can keep up with my brain, so I'll come back to this topic tomorrow I think ;)

What I will say at the moment is that I have seen a large number of caesareans, both elective and emergency, and it is a particularly brutal and rough operation, albeit quick. Having seen one I can not understand why ANYBODY would choose to have this done to their bodies unless there was a sufficient medical indication to do so.

A woman's body is an amazing thing and there's nothing more fascinating than observing a woman in natural labour, how her body adapts to cope with the process, and how well suited the female body is for giving birth. Sounds obvious, but it never ceases to amaze me. Women actually deliver their own babies, midwives just catch them ;)

My view on the subject of whether or not people who opt for caesarean sections when there is no medical indication for performing one, yes I do think they should have to pay. And further to that, if they can afford to pay £5000 for an operation, they can afford to go private, therefore they should relieve the burden on the NHS even more.

A c-section requires a much greater number of personnel to be involved, at least one midwife, two surgeons, theatre nurses, paediatrician, recovery staff, and then a longer stay in hospital, often 4 days, reducing the number of free beds.

A natural birth requires only one midwife, and the stay in hospital can be as little as 6 hours, if the woman so wishes, although most people stop in for 1 or 2 days.

Don't even get me started on the effects of epidurals on the caesarean section rate.............. :rolleyes: :P

How do epidurals affect the caesarean rate?Are they bad for childbirth?

Originally posted by Abdul
Interesting to note that the people who are against abortion are also the ones against unnecessary ceaserians.
(Oh dear, I am in trouble now)

Are they? Not in my case. A whole different can of worms you opening up there Abdul ;)

To add some points about the ceasaren and epidural rates. With my first I was one of four women being induced. Only one was really quick actually going into labour a few hours after being given her pessary and delivered normally. The rest of us took longer and the two who opted for epidural both ended up with cesaerean births - me of course showed my lad where the proper exit was.
In addition to this there were two women who were pregnant around the same time as me at work - one delivered before and one after, they both opted for epidural and both ended up with cesasarians.
I have met few women who have come out of an epidural unscathed either thru ceasarian or back problems after - personally I wouldn't even trust God to go that close to the workings in my spine with a needle. Noooooooo

Moon Maiden

There is a great deal of research which shows that epidurals increase the duration of labour, and the number of operative deliveries. Not only do they increase the likelihood of having a caesarean section, but more often than that they can lead to a ventouse or a forceps delivery, which is obviously much more traumatic for both the mother and baby than a natural vaginal delivery.

They also increase the incidence of fetal malposition, meaning that the fetus is not in the prime position to descend through the pelvis, causing longer labours while the baby rotates, or if it fails to rotate, an instrumental or operative delivery.

They also increase the amount of perineal trauma at delivery.

There is no denying that they are a fantastic way to relieve the pain of labour, and having not had a baby yet myself, I won't be judgmental as I don't know yet how I will cope with labour, and of course every labour is different with different types and levels of pain. I just know that I see on a daily basis the real decrease in normal vaginal deliveries in women with epidurals :)

Originally posted by sarah_81
Don't even get me started on the effects of epidurals on the caesarean section rate

This is very interesting. Is there a proven link?

My wife reluctantly had epidurals (as nothing else worked) with both our kids and ended up having emergency sections both times, despite trying really hard to deliver normally.

Nobody ever told us anything about an increased likelihood of having to have a section after an epidural.

There is plenty of research which supports it yes, I can dig out some references if anybody would like?

Information about things such as pain relief in labour is something which ideally should be given antenatally, by CMWs and at parentcraft classes, as once labour has started I don't feel it's the most appropriate time for a woman to be making those kind of decisions. This is where making birth plans helps, along with the help of Community Midwives. Unfortunately, more often than not this isn't the case.

But in any case this kind of information should be given when a woman requests an epidural, unfortunately it isn't the reality :(

I am from the school of thought that caesarians should only be performed if either the mother or baby would be endagered in normal labour. If the mother wants a caesarian then they should try going private or pay for it. They say that it costs £5k for a c-section and £700 for normal delivery - the difference is extortionate!

If that doesn't happen, then all doctors/midwives should have a lengthy consultation with the patient about why they so desperately want one. If it's sex - well you'll be out of actiuon for at least 10 weeks instead of 6 with a regualr birth. Things do tighten up! If it's the body aspect - exercise is much more painful if you've had a c-section (speaking from a close friend's experience of one normal delivery and then her most recent a c-section).

I have no children (thank god, I'm only 20!) and until recently I had thought I'd prefer a c-section because it seemed less painful and easier. However since hearing about my friend's hassle with one I don't think I'll bother. Don't children who are born with c-sects have more breathing difficulties and don't bond as quickly as normal ones too?

Someone should add a poll to this thread!

7 weeks ago I had an elective section. I was scared to go into labour and give birth naturally, but otherwise there was no medical reason as to why I couldn't. I had a gorgeous baby girl who was 8lb 12oz and I was booked in 10 days before my due date. I dread to think what size she would have been if I had gone over my date by the allowed two weeks.

I demanded a c-section due to my fear and after battling with various individuals, I was finally granted one, which I think should have been my choice anyway.

I wanted the birth of my baby to be a calm event, not exhausting, painful and lasting for 2 days! So I had a medical team. This alleviated my anxiety and the whole procedure went very well and I bonded immediately with my baby, could pick her up and I even managed to breastfeed(sarcasm). My baby scored 9 on the apgar scale and didn't have a misshapen head.

Should I have allowed myself to go into what could have been a long, painful labour and possible endured tearing, intervention including forceps/ventouse or even an emergancy or crash section, which three months earlier happened to a family member who still mentally hasn't recovered? No I made an informed choice and demanded a purely elective caesarean, so the above wouldn't happen.

Fair enough the cost of my section is a few hundred pounds more than a normal delivery, (tough, I have paid my taxes and nat ins for years) but what if the labour of the normal deliverly lasts for a couple of days, and an emergancy section is needed? Recovery time included, that cost is a hell of a lot more than an elective section.

A completely elective section is statistically the safest way to deliver a baby, but those stats are usually lumped together with emergancy or planned caesarean stats.

Call me too posh or scared to push, I don't care. The birth of my baby went to plan and was the best experience of my life. I don't feel as though I have failed as a woman for being scared to deliver a baby, I feel exhilerated at the fact that made my decision and fought to have the delivery I wanted.

Oh and it doesn't cost 5k for a section, yes if you go to somewhere like the portland hospital, but on the NHS it's about £1500

The main problem with childbirth in this country isn't whether you do or do not have a C-Section, it is that it is still regarded as a medical procedure. It isn't anything of the sort as pregnant women aren't ill. C-Sections are simply the most extreme end of the scale. Perhaps more incidious is how quick consultant led units are to induce labour usually on the flimsiest of evidence. Doctors have decided that you are pregnant for 40 weeks, and so god help anyone who dares not give birth after 41 weeks. We should move to a system where it is assumed that all births are at home, without intervention. For those women that this is not appropriate for, there should be birth centres in different parts of the city which are not attached to hospitals. Clearly some women will have problems which mean they really must be admitted, but these need to be the exception, and not the norm.

Of course, some people will be frighted by the idea that they are miles from all that medical help. In practice this is simply not the case. Midwifes will have a kit including many emergency items. They quickly know (or at least they would if they attended more natural births!) when something is going wrong and will get you seen to in hospital every bit as quick as if you travel from a ward. I can state this from experience having had to wait in a theatre while they tried to find all the staff. The short journey in the ambulance would allow everyone time to get organised an be waiting.

Doesn't it spoil sex afterwards?This is pure ignorance speaking as i have no knowledge of the subject matter.

I have heaps to say about this whole subject but just to answer sarah's
question; no it doesn't spoil sex :D

Will try and get back online for more later.

OK, back now.

When a woman gives birth naturally to a daughter, the knowledge to give birth naturally is passed on during that process. If we continue to elect c/s births, we will eventually evolve out of the knowledge to give birth.

If a woman wants a c/s for no medical reason, my feeling is that she should be made to pay for it. It is not good for mother or child, whatever anyone might say or whatever their experience has been as it goes against nature, and it started out as an emergency life-saving procedure.

I'm very glad that I managed to evade a c section with my little one. I had to have a ventouse delivery which was bad enough - that and having to go back for a D and C as they didn't take everything out (eww). But at least I managed to avoid the knife. I was given an epidural for the ventouse and believe me, it was the best thing in the world that has ever happened to me. Baby was back to back so labour was agony cubed and then he got stuck - he was not going to come out. So they brought out the big guns pain killer wise - I didn't request one but I'm glad I went along with it.
I can't imagine anyone choosing to have a cesararean, it's quite major surgery and I wouldn't fancy surgery if I could aviod it.

If a woman wants a c/s for no medical reason, my feeling is that she should be made to pay for it. It is not good for mother or child, whatever anyone might say or whatever their experience has been as it goes against nature, and it started out as an emergency life-saving procedure.

Oh no, Lizzmobile, for once we disagree on something!

I feel whether or not to have an elective caesarian should be entirely up to the woman concerned, and it would be really unfair for the hospital to charge her for it.

It is SUCH a personal thing - I don't feel it's the sort of decision anyone can make on behalf on anyone else.

Giving birth naturally can be an incredibly traumatic experience, even if it goes reasonably smoothly, and trauma suffered can potentially damage the bond between mother and baby. Just because it's 'natural', doesn't mean it is right for an individual mother and baby.

In the long run, I believe safeguarding the mother/baby bond is the most important thing, and if a woman feels a caesarian is the right option for her, it should be her choice to have one.

StarSparkle

I'm confused and just a little worried (petrified actually)!

My MW has recommended I have an epidural as I have ME and she said it will mean labour won't take as much out of me.

I was in Labour for over 3 days with my daughter 23 years ago and ended up having an emergency c-section. I had a really awful time which put me off ever having another baby (this one was NOT planned).

I desperately want to have a normal birth this time, so if an epidural is going to increase the likelyhood of a c-section it's probably not really appropriate for me. I know that with a VBAC there is a risk of uterine rupture (which is also a scary thought) hence why consultant wants me to labour in hospital rather than home.

I'm 38 weeks now, and the ante-natal classes are this coming weekend so hopefully should find out more about the different pain relief options available. Any comments and/or advice welcome ... !

What a tricky subject.Ive had 3 kids, all normal deliveries(very lucky I know).I was prepared for pain with my first baby.Yes it was painful, yes I did want to go home and stop it all just 1/2 hour before she was born, yes it hurts ,but I cant understand why a healthy woman, with a normal pregnancy would elect to undergo major abdoninal surgery.The body is an amazing thing, we are designed to give birth the way we do,The pain is part of the experience,the relief when it is over is so fantastic, coupled with the joy holding your child.
Many women fear childbirth,support from good midwives and partners/family, can make a difference, understanding what happens to your body when you are having a baby can reduce fear.Learn all you can, speak to your midwife, read books, it all helps.

I myself having undergone a c section would not know why anyone would choose to have one for no apparent reason. I was booked in for one due to my baby being breech, doctors werent happy for me to try for a natural birth of a breech baby cus i'm tiny and my baby was nearly 9lb but being a nervous first time mum i was happy to do what ever they said as long as my baby would be safe, however my waters broke in the early hours a week early, i went straight to hospital, got there at 5am my daughter was born at 8am by emergency c-section, at first i thought great how quick and simple but afterwards i changed my mind, i was stuck in bed for the first 24 hours on a drip and numb unable to move, i couldnt move to pick my baby up from her cot when she was crying, i couldnt change her it was awful, even after that i struggled to just even get up, the first few weeks at home were just painful and i almost collapsed in Meadowhall from sheer exhaustion and pain 2 weeks after the op. My best friend had her baby naturally a week after me and she was up and about, doing everything no probs, she was getting out and about as she could drive (i wasnt allowed), while i was still recovering. The worst thing is im expecting my second baby soon and again have been booked for a c section on the 3rd july, this time due to a low lying placenta and the baby is breech again and i'm dreading it afterwards, while most mums will be up and about on the ward with their babies i'll be stuck in bed in unable to look after my newborn as much i'd like. :( i agree if there is medical need then they are best but to choose to have one for no reason then thats just silly, i'd choose a natural birth any day if i could.

I think that if a woman ELECTS for a c-section than she SHOULD be charged, of course if the procedure is done for the health of her and/or the baby than no she shouldn't be charged.

If I claim benefits I can get free dental treatment; however if I want a sedative than I get charged approx £70-90. Why should this be any different??????

Apparently women are finding it harder to give birth now and increasingly things like forceps are used and babies are at risk due to long drawn out births.It's not that women are too posh to push, but that the pushing just isn't working!This "too posh to push" thing seems to be how a lot of people descibe the women who choose to have caesereans but they are only a small percentage of the cases that occur.They just seem to get all of the attention.As for whether women should pay i have no idea!

I think that you will find that this tallies quite nicely with the increased use of epidurals. This means that the woman will not be able to move about and let gravity and nature (i.e. opening up the pelvis) to take place properly.

For what its worth I have experienced a C/S (brought on because of too much intervention I believe - induced baby, encouraged to have an epidural therefore being bed bound etc) and a normal birth for my large second (9lbs 9oz delivered in 2 hours with a little gas and air). I know what I would choose due and it would most definitely not be a C/S due to the recovery.

I believe that C/S should only be carried out in a medical need and not for convenience (most definitely when using the NHS). A C/S will involved a largish team of professionals, an operating theatre etc and a hospital stay of a minimum of 3-4 days (it was 5 when I had my first but I think that has decreased) and is a costly proceedure with strangely enough complications for both the mother and baby:( The incidence of post natal depression appears to increase with people having C/S - I suffered with my first but not with my second:?

LisaH xxx

I had an emergency section with my first child, which I would like to add was the most horrific traumatic thing that has ever happened to me, I was rushed around and had my baby within 45 minutes of arriving at Jessops, no one explained anything that was happening, just heard the nurses talking to each other saying "baby distressed" "cord around neck" and "baby to big to go through birth canal"
With my last baby I had an elective section as I didn't want to put my baby or myself through that again.
I am now having my third and final baby which will be by section again, although I have now overcome my fear of the above happening again I am not able to have a natural birth after two previous sections.

I do believe that people should have the right to choose, I have worked all of my life and paid into the national health service. why shouldn't I be able to choose what I believe to be best for me and my baby.

A lot of women who are against sections are the one who have had emergancy ones, but it was the failure of the attempt at a natural birth that caused these women to have emergancy/crash sections.
A SECTION IS WHAT PROBABLY SAVED THE WOMAN AND/OR BABYS LIFE.
Does it matter which way the baby came out?

Surely it is a 21st century womans right to have a choice in the delivery of her baby?

Does it cost a whole lot more for the procedure?

I guess it does. A natural birth, without complications, I'm guessing will be done with the aid of a midwife, maybe a nurse or two for aftercare and a short stay in hospital. Whereas, a caesarean will involve a surgeon, anaesthetist, surgical nurses, the use of the operating theatre, equipment and considerably longer aftercare.

As for my opinions on this. Given the current state of the NHS and the massive debts, I feel it would be just wasting more money to carry out such unnecessary procedures if it's not medically necessary. Expectant mothers shouldnt be given the choice unless there is a medical need. Whatever happened to natural births?! As for charging, I believe in free heathcare and that's what the NHS is there for.

A lot of women who are against sections are the one who have had emergancy ones, but it was the failure of the attempt at a natural birth that caused these women to have emergancy/crash sections.
A SECTION IS WHAT PROBABLY SAVED THE WOMAN AND/OR BABYS LIFE.
Does it matter which way the baby came out?

Surely it is a 21st century womans right to have a choice in the delivery of her baby?

But it costs the NHS a LOT more to carry out an unnecessary proceedure! You still could have one if you were willing to pay (if it wasnt a medical need) - no-ones saying they shouldnt be possible and you are correct in saying that it does save lives! This debate is who should pay as far as I can see and the NHS does not have an unlimited pool of cash:(

Unfortunately it has been common here to go straight to C/S when things are slightly less than ideal and as another person has posted techniques that midwives used to do are being lost which is a shame. As it turns out my son could have been born normally rather than by C/S but I wasnt given that option (he was a little stuck - due to me being bedbound from being induced and having an epidural - but not in distress and with manipulation I wouldnt have needed surgery):twisted: Even so I still feel that elective C/S are not to be encouraged for a number of reasons.

I felt this way about C/S before I had one myself.

LisaHxxx

A lot of women who are against sections are the one who have had emergancy ones, but it was the failure of the attempt at a natural birth that caused these women to have emergancy/crash sections.
A SECTION IS WHAT PROBABLY SAVED THE WOMAN AND/OR BABYS LIFE.
Does it matter which way the baby came out?

Surely it is a 21st century womans right to have a choice in the delivery of her baby?

In some cases you are probably right. In many cases it is medical intervention that causes the natural childbith not to work and so lead to emergency treatment of which C-Section is only one type. It does matter where the baby comes out and it does matter where this is. If the baby is born naturally, at home, then both the baby and the parents are more relaxed and under less stress. This means that things such as breastfeeding are easier, everybody recovers more quickly, and the baby sleeps because it is relaxed. The contrasting version of events is that the doctors claim the women is a week late (although god knows how anyone could be so accurate), so they try to induce the baby, this can then lead to problems which leads to forceps or a C-Section. This is carried out in a operating theatre with everyone under stress and machines going "ping". The women is then presented with her baby after some masked people have looked at it to make sure it doen't have any bits missing. The woman then has to recover from an operation in a strange place after having had a major operation and with a new baby. During this fiasco they will probably have changed shifts once or twice so whe won't even recognise the staff. On top of that, it costs vastly more money than if every woman had two personal midwifes to attend her at home and stay with her through the entire process.

There is FAR too much political correctness around about the whole birth experience.

The only 'acceptable' way to give birth (for the 'earth mother' types who seem to have hugely influenced midwives from what I can tell) seems to be to have the baby naturally with as little pain relief as possible. It's like the mother gets a Gold Star for Motherhood if she achieves this. :huh: It's almost like there's a sort of stigma if the mother is forced to use a lot of pain relief, or, heaven forbid, have an 'unnatural' c-section. God knows how many mothers and babies lives have been saved by this procedure.

Surely the whole point is to produce a healthy and not-too-distressed baby - without losing the life of the mother in the process?

It strikes me that this a 'natural birth is best' is a 'badge of honour' type thing. But ultimately what does it matter as long as the baby is born healthy? At least with an elective caesarian, the new mother is not completely exhausted and demoralised before she has the surgery. I admit I have minimal medical knowledge, but it seems sensible to me to think that with an elective rather than emergency caesarian, the likelihood is the mother would recover from the surgery more quickly.

Of course, caesarians are not for everyone, but I feel strongly it should be a woman's right to have one, if she believes it is the right thing for her and her baby.

StarSparkle