Football pundit Ron Atkinson has left his job at ITV over a racist comment about Chelsea's Marcel Desailly. Additionally he has lost his contract to write a column for the Guardian.

Referring to the underwhelming performance of the French defender, Atkinson said: "He's what is known in some schools as a f****** lazy thick ******." Atkinson's conversation was picked up by microphones that should have been switched off once the broadcast from the stadium had concluded - more... (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1200304,00.html)

Even if he apologises, surely it won't mean much. After all, this must be the way he refers to black people in real life? Can an apology cut it? Was he being racist? Are we too sensitive - Radio 2 DJ Jeremy Vine wasn't prepared to say the 'N' word on air even though he was quoting what Ron said...

...Discuss :P

no apology can undo what he said - what an idiot

There seems to be a bit of conflict as to what he actually said but the underlying sentiment remains the same

This is an interesting one. Ok, what he said was wrong, but is he an idiot for saying it full stop? or an idiot because it was heard by the microphones not being turned off?

I've been to many football matches and often racial remarks like Ron's are heard shouted all the time from the terraces at black footballers. It seems to be a normal trend. Then again, abuse is shouted at white players too and players from other countries. Certain football fans will insult all players whoever they are if they don't play well, or change teams. Of course it's wrong but for some reason it seems normal at a football match.

So Ron has made a big mistake, he probably just said it in the heat of the football moment, not that that makes it ok, but he may not actually be racist even though he said a racist comment.

As always, a big thing is being made of it, rather than just resign, lose job whatever, it is brought up big time in the news, only to fuel more anger and create something more than it probably was.

Interestingly enough, black people call each other ****** (negger) and it does mean black person, from French nègre, from Spanish negro, so to some extent Ron was calling a black french man a black person. (I know that ******, however is used to be an insult these days).

****** always was an insult, Foxxx. This is English, not French or Spanish.

Either you tolerate racism or you don't. I hear supporters can now be banned from a ground for racist abuse. Why should Ron be treated any differently to any of the fans he talks to?

Its ridiculous that football fans should still be such ingrained racists. Think how crap England, or France would be without any black players.

Meh, he's just as bad as Glenn Hoddle... I was positively seething when he made remarks about disabled people, one of which I am myself... He said disabled people were too lazy and made no attempt to get jobs, simply being content to laze around on benefits... FOOL!

That may or may not be the case for some of them, but DON'T tar us all with the same brush for christ sake! Honestly these TV stars just don't know when to keep their gobs shut.

You make some interesting points Foxxx, but in my view, you either tolerate racist remarks or you don't.

What's the difference between what Ron said and an Asian insulting a white person?

Nothing.

So racist remarks should not be tolerated.

Total numpty!!

He even tried to excuse his actions by stating that he can't racist cos he was one of the first managers in football to sign black players. :loopy:

Although theres no excuse for what he said it seems to be a mentality of the 'old school'. People that were brought up when it was ok to call black people gollywogs etc. My mates Nan still refers to black neighbours as 'them blackies'. It must be hard to change you ways and thinking when you've been brought up to believe certain things.
I would be interesting to know when the word n****r actually became an insult. We watch so many films nowadays which glamourise the word. Personally I wouldn't be insulted if a black person called me Whitey..it is the colour I am. not much difference between that and called someone Ginger because of their hair colour. Its a feature of that person.

As far as I remember, Hoddle didn't say that disabled people were lazy, but that they were being punished for the sins of a past life.

I bet he thought deaf people were gald of the peace and quiet.

Football doesn't seem to attract intellectual giants, for some reason.

Originally posted by wibbles
Personally I wouldn't be insulted if a black person called me Whitey..it is the colour I am. not much difference between that and called someone Ginger because of their hair colour. Its a feature of that person.

I wasn't aware that '******' was a colour, apart from the fact it comes from a similar word to French 'nègre' and Spanish 'negro' which means black. I don't think you can really claim it's the same as someone calling you Whitey...

..........................................

Originally posted by wibbles
Personally I wouldn't be insulted if a black person called me Whitey..it is the colour I am.

Fair point, but a black person would not be upset if you called them black. However, they would be upset if you called them ******.

I have white friends who'd be upset if they were called a honky.

..........................................

Originally posted by Geoff
I wasn't aware that '******' was a colour, apart from the fact it comes from a similar word to French 'nègre' and Spanish 'negro' which means black. I don't think you can really claim it's the same as someone calling you Whitey...

thats why I am curious as to when and where did n****r become an insult and from what did it derive...it seems it has come from different countries' meaning for black.

I wouldn't mind being called honky..First time I've ever heard it mentioned to be fair. Does that have any connection with Honkytonk man then???

Originally posted by Abdul
Fair point, but a black person would not be upset if you called them black. However, they would be upset if you called them ******.



Why is it OK for black people to use the word to describe themselves in every rap record you hear, but it's wrong for white people to say it?

(Not that I would ever use the word myself, I hasten to add)

surely this isn't going to evolve into a debate on whether the word '******' is offensive or not - of course it is!!!
i can't imagine ron atkinson meant it in the sense of Desailly being one of his hommies

Originally posted by mojoworking
Why is it OK for black people to use the word to describe themselves in every rap record you hear, but it's wrong for white people to say it?

(Not that I would ever use the word myself, I hasten to add) Thats my point...its glamourised so much in films and modern culture...Jackie Brown springs to mind instantly and I am sure the lastest hip hop talent about use the word regularly...Fifty Cent and I am sure I've heard Eminem who is clearly White call Dr Dre 'n****r' in a song. All this leads kids growing up to think its ok. Like Sarah B said we need to teach our children how wrong it is to use these words. I know kids of 6 years old listening to Eminem albums full of swear wordsd and the like

Originally posted by Bedhead
surely this isn't going to evolve into a debate on whether the word '******' is offensive or not - of course it is!!!
i can't imagine ron atkinson meant it in the sense of Desailly being one of his hommies We hear the word so often in modern culture that you begin to wonder if it is insulting anymore. If it is then fair enough but surely then black people have a responsibility not to use the word as freely as they do..and I am talking specifically about people in the public eye

Originally posted by Geoff
I wasn't aware that '******' was a colour, apart from the fact it comes from a similar word to French 'nègre' and Spanish 'negro' which means black. I don't think you can really claim it's the same as someone calling you Whitey...

As I understand it, the word originated from the southern states of America and is a corruption of the way they pronounced the word "negro"- ie phonetically it would be "negra".

But that could be an apocryphal story

Originally posted by wibbles
I am sure I've heard Eminem who is clearly White call Dr Dre 'n****r' in a song

slightly different context to Big Ron and Desailley me thinks!

Context or no context...either the word is an insult or not???...which one???

Originally posted by Bedhead
slightly different context to Big Ron and Desailley me thinks!

Perhaps it would have made more sense if we'd heard the next part where Big Ron told him to "get his ass down and kick that sucker through the mother****ing goalposts. Yo!"

Originally posted by wibbles
I am sure the lastest hip hop talent about use the word regularly...
I'm not sure Mr. Cent and Co. would be happy knowing they are being considered as politically correct people. I thought they were trying to be 'bad ass' and therefore using the word ****** because it was 'naughty' rather than politically correct...?

:hihi:

Originally posted by Bedhead
surely this isn't going to evolve into a debate on whether the word '******' is offensive or not - of course it is!!!

I think that's the core of the debate. His defenders (not the football ones :P ) are saying he didn't realise the word was offensive and used it because he's 'old school'.

Originally posted by wibbles
Although theres no excuse for what he said it seems to be a mentality of the 'old school'. People that were brought up when it was ok to call black people gollywogs etc. My mates Nan still refers to black neighbours as 'them blackies'. It must be hard to change you ways and thinking when you've been brought up to believe certain things.
Probably so, but gladly that is changing with each generation. It's not human nature (as someone claimed in another thread) it's education. We are getting better as time goes along.

Originally posted by wibbles
when you've been brought up to believe certain things.
I would be interesting to know when the word n****r actually became an insult. We watch so many films nowadays which glamourise the word. Personally I wouldn't be insulted if a black person called me Whitey..it is the colour I am. not much difference between that and called someone Ginger because of their hair colour. Its a feature of that person. It's not the word, it's the intent with which you use that word. Whether that word is ******, whitey, ginger, wop, kyke, chink, paki, or any other you choose to use, it's the intent behind the word. Therefore context IS everything.

In this case, Ron Atkinson was usuing it in a derogitory fashion, so of course it was racist, and very stupid.

The etymology of the word '******' is very complex.

Read this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/******_(word)

Or this (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/chap1/******.htm) which is the first chapter in a book called "
******: The Strange Career of a Troublesome Word" by Randall Kennedy.

Yes, it's that complex that someone has written a whole book about it.

Nomme

In what context is it ok to use the word n***r then???

Originally posted by wibbles
In what context is it ok to use the word n***r then???
Perhaps if you were an actor playing the part of a 'master' in some epic about the slave trade... :thumbsup: Apart from that I can't really think of any other time when you should/would use it.

Lets not forget Ron also said he was lazy and thick. Quite serious slurs to make about someone you don't know. We focus too much on the racist element and not the fact that 'everything' he said was derogatory

Originally posted by wibbles
Context or no context...either the word is an insult or not???...which one???

Actually context is everything - many words that would be considered offensive in an absolutist view can be used almost as terms of endearment - for example I have a couple of lesbian friends who refer to themselves as dykes but if a group of homophobic neanderthals were to be calling them dykes across a street they would be offended. Same applies to fag and queer - you can use them as terms of affection in the gay culture but rarely outside. I've also heard black people refering to themselves as niggers and asians referring to themselves as paki's (even if they don't come from Pakistan!) but you would raise eyebrows (at least) if you were to use them if you aren't black or asian respectively. As a side note there also a increasing use of b*stard (* added so it doesn't get completely *ed out by the forum!) as a term of affection!

Languages in general, and English in particular, are very fluid and its difficult to have absolute terms in them!

I'm not saying context isn't an issue..course it is. But in this day and age do we really believe the word ****** can be used in different contexts..I've been brought up to believe its an insult..full stop!

Originally posted by wibbles
Lets not forget Ron also said he was lazy and thick. Quite serious slurs to make about someone you don't know. We focus too much on the racist element and not the fact that 'everything' he said was derogatory No... back to the context again wibbles...

He called him a f******* lazy thick ******.

He didn't say that he's lazy, he's thick and he's a ******.

The other insults were just the supporting act.

Originally posted by evildrneil
As a side note there also a increasing use of b*stard (* added so it doesn't get completely *ed out by the forum!) as a term of affection!
Great post. But I would get some new friends if they are calling you b*stard and pretending it's affectionate :P

j/k

ok big ron was wrong to say what he did but hes a top guy and actually having met him hes ok .............

if you want to hound someone have a go at [edit] wednesdays scout in the early 80s he had a go at the owls only black player with words like you lazy coon etc far worse than anything big rons said:loopy:

Originally posted by panda79
if you want to hound someone have a go at [edit] wednesdays scout in the early 80s he had a go at the owls only black player with words like you lazy coon etc far worse than anything big rons said:loopy:
Had the internet and Sheffield Forum been invented all those years ago then we probably would have...

:confused:

Originally posted by Tony
No... back to the context again wibbles...

He called him a f******* lazy thick ******.

He didn't say that he's lazy, he's thick and he's a ******.

The other insults were just the supporting act.
To me the word used at the end would imply it not being the most predominant word of the sentence. If the other words were just supporting then they would have come out last. Surely thats how the brain works. Most insults start with the actual reason for insulting them followed by any other word of choice.

Originally posted by Geoff
Had the internet and Sheffield Forum been invented all those years ago then we probably would have...

:confused:
but do you think wednesday should employ a person with such views:confused:

panda79 I appreciate you are a fan of Ron, but please don't attempt to hijack this thread. If you are really concerned about Sheffield Wednesday employing this person then please start a *new* thread. Bear in mind that you will need some evidence that he did indeed make these comments.

Originally posted by wibbles
I'm not saying context isn't an issue..course it is. But in this day and age do we really believe the word ****** can be used in different contexts..I've been brought up to believe its an insult..full stop!

Well I do yes - you only have to think of N.W.A. - its not an insult there is it?

Anyway thats getting way of topic so I shall stop! Whatever context may allow I think its pretty certain that it was meant as a perjorative in this case and so deserves at the very least an apology - though for the thick and lazy as much if not more than the ****** - maybe not very PC but if we asume ****** simply means black its not really an insult is it!?

It is wrong and does deserve an apology but you must be able to see why there is so much confusion nowadays.

Absolutely wibbles, and as time goes along, more and more people will get educated and racism will pretty much die out in civilised society.

Originally posted by wibbles
It is wrong and does deserve an apology but you must be able to see why there is so much confusion nowadays.

Most definately. ****** is a very loaded word - some people will be hideously offended by it, some won't but I'm afraid there are always going to be words like that and people will always get themselves into trouble without meaning to and conversely others will always try and weasel out of things they have said claiming they didn't think it was offensive. All part of lifes rich pageant!

Originally posted by Tony
Absolutely wibbles, and as time goes along, more and more people will get educated and racism will pretty much die out in civilised society.

Lets hope so Tony...
Maybe Ron was trying to spice up things a bit. Everyone seemed to be getting sick of his "stick the big man in at the far stick" and "he's done him with a lollipop" phrases

Originally posted by wibbles
"stick the big man in at the far stick" and "he's done him with a lollipop" phrases

Learn 'Ronglish' here (http://www.dangerhere.com/ronglish.htm)

Nomme

Would anyone go as far to say that Ron is a racist person though? I don't think I would.

Yes, what he said was very, very stupid. However if he'd have thought any black person would hear his remark I'm sure he wouldn't have said it.

To use a racist word doesn't necessarily make you racist IMO. I'm not trying to excuse his behaviour though. A man like Ron Atkinson should know better than to use that word no matter who he's talking to.

Originally posted by Sidla
Would anyone go as far to say that Ron is a racist person though? I don't think I would.

hmm that's quite interesting - i'd think he wasn't actually racist and made a reactionary remark but that doesn't excuse him of course - Desailly was crap mind!

Originally posted by Sidla
Would anyone go as far to say that Ron is a racist person though? I don't think I would.

Yes, what he said was very, very stupid. However if he'd have thought any black person would hear his remark I'm sure he wouldn't have said it.

To use a racist word doesn't necessarily make you racist IMO. I'm not trying to excuse his behaviour though. A man like Ron Atkinson should know better than to use that word no matter who he's talking to.

to use a racist word doesn't make you a racist. But to make a racist comment to someone (who was he talking too?) gives a pretty good indication that you are.

He could have insulted him quite thouroughly without bringing his colour into it, just replace the work ****** with some other none racists offensive word, ******r for example.

He might still have his job if he'd said that.

Yeah, I agree. Who was he talking to?

The difference between Ron Atkinson and say Bernard Manning for example, is that one of them makes a career out of making racist remarks, and the other makes one racist remark and quits his carrer because of it. To me that is a pretty good indication that he knew it was a really stupid thing to say.

Originally posted by Sidla
To me that is a pretty good indication that he knew it was a really stupid thing to say.

Yeah. Prince Phillip should follow his example.

Nomme

He was silly to make the remark but as a society we are now way too sensitive to this type of thing. "******" is only a word afterall, but most of the PC brigade will now bracket Big Ron with racist thugs who go around beating up people for being black.

Originally posted by Cyclone

He could have insulted him quite thouroughly without bringing his colour into it, just replace the work ****** with some other none racists offensive word, ******r for example.

He might still have his job if he'd said that.


So let me get this right.... its OK to insult on ANY grounds other than race? Why is race put up on this untouchable pedestal? It is just another physical attribute. If Dessailly was was fat, thick, and ugly, would it be alright for someone to call him a "fat, stupid, ugly s**t"?

Originally posted by t020
So let me get this right.... its OK to insult on ANY grounds other than race? Why is race put up on this untouchable pedestal? It is just another physical attribute. If Dessailly was was fat, thick, and ugly, would it be alright for someone to call him a "fat, stupid, ugly s**t"?

good point.

now, can anyone explain properly why its okay for rap artists to refer to each other as niggers. i've read a lot of fancy words, but no-one has explained it to my liking. agreed it's an insult, no question, so why do they use it?

I answered that question earlier. It's because they know that most people can't use it without being (quite rightly) branded as being racist. These people don't sell bucket loads of CDs by being politically correct - in fact it's the opposite.

Originally posted by Geoff
I answered that question earlier. It's because they know that most people can't use it without being (quite rightly) branded as being racist.

thank-you.

Originally posted by Geoff
I answered that question earlier. It's because they know that most people can't use it without being (quite rightly) branded as being racist. These people don't sell bucket loads of CDs by being politically correct - in fact it's the opposite.

Is being racist any worse than being, say, "fat-ist"? Using a racial insult doesn't automatically mean that Ron has some deep seated racial hatred and secretly wishes to kill all blacks. Also, if the term used was "frog" (Dessailly is French), which is equally as "racist", can you honestly say there'd be as much of an outcry and that he would still have had to step down?

Does it have to be worse? Are you looking for an excuse? Should it make a difference?

Originally posted by t020
Using a racial insult doesn't automatically mean that Ron has some deep seated racial hatred and secretly wishes to kill all blacks.
:o Where on earth did that come from?!

Originally posted by Tony
Does it have to be worse? Are you looking for an excuse? Should it make a difference?


It shouldn't be worse, but the way people get treated for saying a racial insult as opposed to any other term that insults someone on a physical attribute they can't help suggests that it is.

As a person who has endured many insults from people of a different race/colour I can honestly say that I dont give a flying f... about it. But I did think that this was a country where a lot of importance was placed on freedom of speech and now it seems we are losing that freedom.

Originally posted by dragonsoup
As a person who has endured many insults from people of a different race/colour I can honestly say that I dont give a flying f... about it. But I did think that this was a country where a lot of importance was placed on freedom of speech and now it seems we are losing that freedom.


If you're a muslim fundamentalist cleric preaching hatred to the west, go for it, the freedom of speech is your right. If you're a TV football pundit that slips up by using an insulting term, its UNACCEPTABLE and things like that shouldn't be said. Hmm.

Originally posted by mojoworking
Why is it OK for black people to use the word to describe themselves in every rap record you hear, but it's wrong for white people to say it?

(Not that I would ever use the word myself, I hasten to add)

Thats what we call double standards.

Can you imagine the uproar if the MOBO's were joined by the MOWO's???

Originally posted by dinp
Can you imagine the uproar if the MOBO's were joined by the MOWO's???
No I can't to be blunt. The MOBOs aren't exclusively for black people.

Originally posted by Killian
now, can anyone explain properly why its okay for rap artists to refer to each other as niggers.
Probably the same reason why if I called someone a fat f****r I'd just be laughed at.

Originally posted by Sidla
No I can't to be blunt. The MOBOs aren't exclusively for black people.
That doesn't mean that the theoretical MOWO awards would be solely for White people. It would just be for music of white origin.

Did I imply otherwise?

seems wibbles has got his head screwed on right.

can me talk like de west indian man in front of my black mate?
or should i pull him up for talking better english than me?

i am a blanco by the way.

Originally posted by mikosavi
i am a blanco by the way.

thought you were brilliant in Porridge.

Of course there'd be uproar if MOWO's were introduced. Racism is a one way street.

I wish it wasnt evident at all, but deep down you know it is predominantly one-way.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by t020
[B]Is being racist any worse than being, say, "fat-ist"?

Yes, it is much worse to abuse some one with a racist remark than a word such as fat/thick/hairy etc etc
If you abuse someone racially, you are not just making a comment about what you think of them as a person, but of their whole background/culture/family and reason for being who they are. You are undermining their existence in fact. Think about it ....

Originally posted by melody on
[QUOTE]Originally posted by t020
[B]Is being racist any worse than being, say, "fat-ist"?

Yes, it is much worse to abuse some one with a racist remark than a word such as fat/thick/hairy etc etc
If you abuse someone racially, you are not just making a comment about what you think of them as a person, but of their whole background/culture/family and reason for being who they are. You are undermining their existence in fact. Think about it ....


No, thats rubbish. Do you honestly think that Ron Atkinson was thinking about Dessaillys culture/background when making the remark? He was just insulting his skin colour, which is afterall just another physical attribute.


By the way, substitute the word "n***er" with "frog" and by your own logic the comment insults their whole background/culture/family - now answer honestly, would their have been as much hype and would he have had to resign if he'd have said "frog"? We both know the answer is no, the question is why? The whole race issue is sensationalised to such a degree that it is almost laughable and serves only to worsen race relations.

how do you work out that free speach is infringed? He used his right to free speach, then having done so he quit his job because he realised that most people do not want to listen to someone who holds opinions of that type.

Racism refers to ethnic background, frog is no more a racist insult than limey is. It's still an insult, but based on nationality, not race.

The reason racism is considered to be worse than fatism is complicated. Firstly, race is something you are born with, fat is not. Secondly are all the historical issues, you can't pretend that there aren't any.

MOBO, MOWO awards. I agree, sometimes the PCism is taken too far, that doesn't justify being a bigot though.

I wouldnt say i'm bigoted, its my general observation on the matter, probably could have worded it better though.

This might have been said earlier in the thread, but if Ron had made similar derogatory comments about, say John Terry, he'd still be in his job(s) I suspect.

I don't agree about this MOWO thing. Why should there be outcry if it happened? As long as black people are not excluded from winning a MOWO why should there be?

Originally posted by Cyclone

Racism refers to ethnic background, frog is no more a racist insult than limey is. It's still an insult, but based on nationality, not race.

The reason racism is considered to be worse than fatism is complicated. Firstly, race is something you are born with, fat is not. Secondly are all the historical issues, you can't pretend that there aren't any.



Nationality can't be helped, but "frog" would be infinitely more acceptable. Other physical attributes, e.g. height, hair colour, etc, that can't be helped are also used as insults. As for the 2nd point, how long are we supposed to tread on eggshells around the whole slave trade issue? It happened centuries ago, and had nothing to do with me, you, or anyone on this forum. "Frog" is seen as light hearted, as is "limey", but in essence its the same thing. Maybe if we stopped being so alarmist over terms like "n***er", racial insults would also be treated more light heartedly and race wouldn't be as big an issue. As soon as race is brought into the equation however, molehills soon become mountains. I don't condone referring to people as "n***er" because I don't think its fair to insult people on things they can't help. I don't see it as any worse/better to use than terms like "frog" though. By making it out to be a big issue it causes more problems.

Originally posted by Sidla
I don't agree about this MOWO thing. Why should there be outcry if it happened? As long as black people are not excluded from winning a MOWO why should there be?

I agree with that, but in reality there will be a difference between should/would.

Well my point is that speculating about it here is not really relavent because there's no evidence that it would or would not cause offence.

Well until the event happens, we can only speculate.

As for Ron though, he's accepted what he said was wrong by offering his resignation. He'd be a much worse fellow if he hadn't acknowleged it at all.

He'll be back.

Originally posted by Killian
now, can anyone explain properly why its okay for rap artists to refer to each other as niggers.

Who says it's OK? I don't think it's OK at all. I think it is disrespectful to the memories of the likes of Luther King and others.

Originally posted by Killian
i've read a lot of fancy words, but no-one has explained it to my liking. agreed it's an insult, no question, so why do they use it?

Errr...because appealling to disaffected youths brings in big $$$$$$ ?

I read a quote many years ago 'Spike Lee: Part time film producer and full time exploiter of black youth' Heh heh

Originally posted by Sidla
Did I imply otherwise?
Well to be fair that's how it came across.

t020 - more recent issues such as black emancipation in the US occured in the early part of the last century. This is only 1 or 2 generations removed from us and that's why racism towards colour is still so taboo.

Originally posted by t020
How long are we supposed to tread on eggshells around the whole slave trade issue?

The whole appologising for the slave trade thing seems slightly odd to me - yes white people provided a market and treating people as property is a pretty crappy thing to do - but someone still had to sell the slaves - and that someone was well other black people. It seems to me that both groups were pretty much as bad as each other?

Originally posted by Sidla
I don't agree about this MOWO thing. Why should there be outcry if it happened? As long as black people are not excluded from winning a MOWO why should there be?

Maybe you could look at it like this...

There is a growing movement to recognise and celebrate the various aspects of "black culture", essentially as a civilised retort to the racism that is endured. It is a positive thing, usually about integration and acknowledgment, and I personally have no problem with that.

On the other hand, just take a look at this Forum. It's full of WASP's slagging off "black culture" instead of reposting with a celebration of WASP culture. It's often very negative, uncivilised and it's about isolationism. I have a huge problem with that.

There is no move to stop British culture, but there are lots of attempts to deny and wipe out foreign cultures.

Originally posted by Tony
On the other hand, just take a look at this Forum. It's full of WASP's slagging off "black culture"

It is? OK I know I'm reasonably new here but I can't say that I had noticed very much in the way of racism - its not completely absent but its certainly not everywhere!

Actually, you're right - it's a lot better than it was in terms of overt racism. :thumbsup:

It's the more subliminal stuff that is probably as much about fear and not understanding - at least that is how it often comes over. Unfortunately, that sort of stuff just gives more ammo for the hardliners. :( . Folk should understand just how dangerous people like the BNP are, and the techniques they use.

I have to agree with Tony's last comments.

It is very interesting to note that the same people who demand vengeance against those who burn the Union Jack in Regents Park are the same ones who will deny that the word ****** is an insult.

Originally posted by Tony
Folk should understand just how dangerous people like the BNP are, and the techniques they use.

Pretty much all extremists are dangerous as they rely on dogma not thought! However never forget that this applies just as much to groups like the ANL who are just as biggoted, dogmatic and violent as the BNP against their own chosen targets.

They certainly can be! However, have you considered that their cause might be a just one? Fire with fire?

Originally posted by Tony
They certainly can be! However, have you considered that their cause might be a just one? Fire with fire?

I have indeed considered that - however fire with fire is frequently the worst possible approach - just making both sides more entrenched and aggressive and blinded by their own dogma. My personal opinion is that they are pretty much as bad as each other in their approach.

Originally posted by Tony
They certainly can be! However, have you considered that their cause might be a just one? Fire with fire?

This may surprise you Tony, but over the years I've been a member of almost every leftie party you can name, from the Young Communists, to the SWP etc.

I've nearly had my head kicked in several times when handing ANL leaflets near a known NF (as it was called in those days) pub near Chelsea's ground.

Eventually, though, I began to realise that in their own way, the extreme left parties are almost as bad as the right wingers they despise. A lot of people I met back then became what I call "professional lefties". They live for the cause and go on every march and protest imaginable. They want to ban everything that moves, just in case it has any hidden right wing leanings. It takes over their lives and they're no fun anymore.

These days, I'm still a strong Labour supporter (although that seems to be dirty word on this forum), but have distanced myself from the extreme left.

While I obviously despise the BNP and their ilk, I think it's playing into their hands to sink to their level and resort to full scale street punch-ups etc.

Mojo - I agree with you. I may have sympathies with their ends, but not their methods.

BTW, this may surprise you, but I've never voted Labour in my life!

Life is full of surprises eh? :)

If you're a muslim fundamentalist cleric preaching hatred to the west, go for it, the freedom of speech is your right. If you're a TV football pundit that slips up by using an insulting term, its UNACCEPTABLE and things like that shouldn't be said. Hmm.

This is the type of thing that even the Daily Mail would baulk at printing. I'm tempted to think you're a wind-up merchant, but let's run with the argument:

You seem to suggest that a 'muslim fundamentalist cleric preaching hatred to the west' should be actually denied free speech, or presumably charged with treason or deported to (insert random other country), or flogged, crucified or something similarly medieval that will satisfy the bloodthirst of the chattering classes. Yes?

Yet you believe that Big Ron (who admittedly made a mistake but has done a hell of a lot for football's black cause in the past) should be allowed to say what he likes? Because it's no worse than calling someone a "ginger"?

I appreciate you're trying to make a point, but I think it's a bit of a muddled one.

Here's a clue: buy a book on American history, then you'll understand the significance of the 'n' word!

Ive never liked the FAT BORE anyway but what bothered me were the circumstances, the fact that he felt comfortable in those surroundings using the words that he used and no one would have batted an eyelid had it not been overheard, he would have been back on this week and we wouldn't have been any the wiser.

My bf was telling me last night that his gran used to knit and used to buy '****** brown' wool. Yes, that's right, it was a brand name of a colour. His dad also had a dog who was brown called ******!
This was a few years back, his gran then went into the shop and asked the black shop assistant for some ****** brown wool and it had recently changed it's name and wasn't aware of what she was saying might be offending someone. The shop assistant didn't seem bothered. So at some point ****** has become offensive, but I still don't get why it's ok for black people to call each other ******, or use it in their lyrics, but white people can't say it.

Originally posted by Foxxx
So at some point ****** has become offensive, but I still don't get why it's ok for black people to call each other ******, or use it in their lyrics, but white people can't say it.

I must ask again who says it's OK for black people to call each other niggers? I don't think it is at all.

Originally posted by Abdul
I must ask again who says it's OK for black people to call each other niggers? I don't think it is at all.

Well black people say it's ok. I asked some friends of mine who are black and they call each other ****** all the time! It seems normal to them and that's straight from their mouths not mine!

Apparently thats also what Ian Wright said on the radio yesterday.

Originally posted by Foxxx
Well black people say it's ok. I asked some friends of mine who are black and they call each other ****** all the time! It seems normal to them and that's straight from their mouths not mine!

Thanks for that Foxxx / Mikey.

I bet Luther King is turning in his grave :roll:

I also know some pakistani's who refer to themselves as paki's.

Maybe people should just laugh these words off, after all they are words, sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me and all that!

I'd personally be more offended if someone called me, thick, or fat etc, I wonder if desailly was more offended my being called lazy and thick?

Originally posted by Abdul
Thanks for that Foxxx / Mikey.

I bet Luther King is turning in his grave :roll:

From the link I posted earlier in this thread :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/******_(word)

"Modern meanings

"******" is considered almost always pejorative when used by non-blacks or those without dark skin, particularly white Europeans. However, some African Americans regularly use it almost as a term of endearment, as in "What's up my ******?" (or nigga). "******" is widely understood by African Americans to also mean, an ignorant (socially, or practically unknowledgeable) person, regardless of race. "Nigga" as a term of endearment is even sometimes evident among the younger generations of whites, and other non-white minorities. It is worth noting that while the word has been partly "reclaimed" by some young African Americans, others consider the term offensive in all contexts and do not agree that it is ever appropriate to use it."

I've already explained this anyway. It's just like Chris Moyles slagging off fat celebrities. It's ironic.

Originally posted by mikey
Apparently thats also what Ian Wright said on the radio yesterday.

From the Sheffield Star (http://www.sheffieldtoday.net/ViewArticle.aspx?SectionID=58&ArticleID=779762) website today:

Former Arsenal player Ian Wright, who now works as a TV and radio soccer pundit, said he was "absolutely disgusted" by Atkinson's comments.
"What really gets me is, I've heard him interviewed and he said he took his mike off and he took his headphones off, so does that make it all right?"

Originally posted by Foxxx
I also know some pakistani's who refer to themselves as paki's.

I think that's what the Americans refer to Pakistanis as, not as a derogatory term, but as an abbreviation, similar to Brit for a British person.

Wonder if all this flak would have come Atkinson's way if he'd referred to him as a thick FROG!!!!

If anyone can remember, I think its from Dambusters but didn't one of the pilots from the 633 squadron have a dog called ******???

Originally posted by dinp
I think that's what the Americans refer to Pakistanis ...as an abbreviation, similar to Brit for a British person.

As do the BNP...but for quite different reasons ;)

As for the original insult to Desailly, if he's lazy he can change that. If he's overweight, he can do something about it. As for his skin colour...there's little he can do about that.

Wacko Jacko did his best

Originally posted by wibbles
If anyone can remember, I think its from Dambusters but didn't one of the pilots from the 633 squadron have a dog called ******???

Yup.

Nomme

Originally posted by wibbles
If anyone can remember, I think its from Dambusters but didn't one of the pilots from the 633 squadron have a dog called ******???

Yes - a black lab - however when screened on terestrial telly I believe that the film is now cut so all reference to the dog is removed (however this my be an urban myth!)

Originally posted by evildrneil
Yes - a black lab - however when screened on terestrial telly I believe that the film is now cut so all reference to the dog is removed (however this my be an urban myth!)

There's a scene from that film in Pink Floyd's 'The Wall'. (The bit where the dog dies)

Nomme

Originally posted by wibbles
Wacko Jacko did his best

I knew you'd bring that up...which is why I wrote little he can do instead of nothing he can do

Eey by eck, you're so predictable ;)

Originally posted by Abdul
I have to agree with Tony's last comments.

It is very interesting to note that the same people who demand vengeance against those who burn the Union Jack in Regents Park are the same ones who will deny that the word ****** is an insult.


Why is it an insult? ****** means of Nigerian origin, so if you see this as an insult then maybe you're the racist one?

Originally posted by Abdul
I must ask again who says it's OK for black people to call each other niggers? I don't think it is at all.

can you please explain why you persist in asking this obviously ridiculous question? no one disputes or even asked whether you think its okay. the question was in the context of black rap artists. THEY (the aforementioned rap artists) think its okay is the answer to this. i thought this had already been made clear.

Originally posted by t020
Why is it an insult? ****** means of Nigerian origin, so if you see this as an insult then maybe you're the racist one?

Not sure of this one t020.

I always thought that ****** was a corruption of NEGRO.

Negro (Spanish for black) being the original term used by Spanish settlers.

American colonists then began referring to the Negro slaves as NEGRAS which became NIGRAS, and then eventually NIGGERS.

Ultimately, ****** is the mispronounced Spanish word for Black.

This is what I have always believed.

Could be wrong!!

Anyway, this discussion is just getting ridiculous. Everyone knows the 'n' word is offensive. Even Ron Atkinson knew the word would cause offence, which is why he resigned.

It's no point going on about wether or not the word should be offensive or not, because the fact remains that it is and everyone knows it is.

Originally posted by Sidla
Anyway, this discussion is just getting ridiculous. Everyone knows the 'n' word is offensive. Even Ron Atkinson knew the word would cause offence, which is why he resigned.

It's no point going on about wether or not the word should be offensive or not, because the fact remains that it is and everyone knows it is.

right on both counts. the word is offensive and this discussion is getting ridiculous, and predictable, and boring................. (yawn)

You'd think that in this day and age 'isms' would be dying out. I have so far learned that any slur made by one person against another has it's base in jealousy or anger. Just as with the saying, 'you only hurt the ones you love', I think it's also true that you only 'pick on' someone with the safety of knowing that they're at a disadvantage.

As a mother of three mixed race children I can honestly say that I don't know of any black person who calls another n****r. Rappers aren't doing themselves any favours I wouldn't think by the too-frequent use of this word but I'm also to understand that it's a term used within the bounds of 'brotherhood'. Rather like the FUBU brand of clothing - For Us By Us. For me it's a very confusing issue - if you like a song containing the 'N' word can you sing along to it? Should you buy the FUBU range of clothing if you're white? Maybe we could have a Forum interview with someone to educate us on this as my black friends can't give me firm answers.

As dinp says though, Ron has apologised rather than being unavailable for comment and I bet the bloke's going to be very embarrassed about this for the rest of his life.

Sorry - I meant to say that my friends don't call each other by the 'N' word

Surely FUBU (For Us By Us) is racist though tiffy? Imagine the outcry if white designers did the same.

Originally posted by t020
Why is it an insult? ****** means of Nigerian origin, so if you see this as an insult then maybe you're the racist one?

You're on the right lines with the origin (see earlier/later posts), but you must see that the word has been turned into an insult.

I think rap artists use it so freely in an attempt to turn the insult on its head. It's like saying "You can't insult us with that word because we use it to describe ourselves".

However, it does beg the question why it's not OK for white people to use the word, even in a non insulting way.

Originally posted by wibbles
If anyone can remember, I think its from Dambusters but didn't one of the pilots from the 633 squadron have a dog called ******??? Guy Gibson. ISTR that the dog died in a road accident while they were on the famous mission.

Originally posted by mojoworking
However, it does beg the question why it's not OK for white people to use the word, even in a non insulting way. Surely that's blindingly obvious?

Originally posted by Tony
Surely that's blindingly obvious?

Despite the connotations, it's just a word after all. If it's said in a non-insulting way, then I don't see why black people should have a monopoly on it.

Originally posted by t020
Why is it an insult? ****** means of Nigerian origin, so if you see this as an insult then maybe you're the racist one?


Ha ha! And there's me thinking it was an insult!

Wow, all that race relations education at primary and junior school, where we were told not to use words like that...what a waste of time that was!

Thanks for telling me I might be a racist simply because I take offence at the word ******, t020.

Please don't be offended if a burn a Union Jack in Regents park this weekend.

Originally posted by mojoworking
Despite the connotations, it's just a word after all. If it's said in a non-insulting way, then I don't see why black people should have a monopoly on it.

I suppose you know some black people who wouldn't be insulted by white people calling them ******?

Originally posted by DaBouncer
That doesn't mean that the theoretical MOWO awards would be solely for White people. It would just be for music of white origin.

Which would undoubtedly be pretty crap being that any decent music has it's origins in black culture :) What would we be left with, folk and country & western?? :P

Originally posted by Abdul
I suppose you know some black people who wouldn't be insulted by white people calling them ******?

Yes I do. Abdul don't you think you're going over the top here - language is dynamic and obviously ****** has evolved other meanings - it is used as a term of endearment by some people despite your protests. It's happened with many words in the past and it will continue to happen in the future, look at the word gay for example - it's changed from meaning something along the lines of 'happy' to the point where it's now used both as an insult and as an affectionate term depending on who is saying it to who.

And before you start I am not condoning the context Ron used it in I'm just trying to get you to see that it's not always used in a derogatory way anymore.

Originally posted by Abdul
Ha ha! And there's me thinking it was an insult!

Wow, all that race relations education at primary and junior school, where we were told not to use words like that...what a waste of time that was!

Thanks for telling me I might be a racist simply because I take offence at the word ******, t020.

Please don't be offended if a burn a Union Jack in Regents park this weekend.


Burning a flag symbolises hatred towards the country. Saying a word on the other hand does not necessarily show hatred for an entire race. Its just a word FFS. Maybe if it wasn't so sensationalised, race relations would improve. "N*gger" should be no more offensive than "fat bas****" - both are insulting but thats ALL they are. e.g. calling someone a "fat bas****" doesn't mean the person has a deep hatred for all people who are fat, it means they observed the person, saw a physical attribute, and picked on it. The same applies to using racial terms. I really believe that racial insults should be treated as no more insulting as other physical attribute insults.

Originally posted by Foxxx
My bf was telling me last night that his gran used to knit and used to buy '****** brown' wool. Yes, that's right, it was a brand name of a colour. His dad also had a dog who was brown called ******!
This was a few years back, his gran then went into the shop and asked the black shop assistant for some ****** brown wool and it had recently changed it's name and wasn't aware of what she was saying might be offending someone. The shop assistant didn't seem bothered. So at some point ****** has become offensive, but I still don't get why it's ok for black people to call each other ******, or use it in their lyrics, but white people can't say it.

Thats right Foxxx. I can remember ****** brown shoe polish just as I can remember golly-**** (now just called gollys).

I must admit though that I don't like the work ******. It brings back images of watching 'Roots' on TV many years ago.

Originally posted by fnkysknky
Which would undoubtedly be pretty crap being that any decent music has it's origins in black culture :) What would we be left with, folk and country & western?? :P
And what about Dance music, Frank Sinatra, Rat Pack etc etc :P

Originally posted by Abdul

Please don't be offended if a burn a Union Jack in Regents park this weekend.

It sounds to me as if you'd rather like to do that!

Not that I particularly care. As with the word ******. It depends on context and intent.

If you think it's alright for black people to use the word, but not white. Then surely that's racism too?

Originally posted by t020
Burning a flag symbolises hatred towards the country. Saying a word on the other hand does not necessarily show hatred for an entire race. Its just a word FFS. Maybe if it wasn't so sensationalised, race relations would improve. "N*gger" should be no more offensive than "fat bas****" - both are insulting but thats ALL they are. e.g. calling someone a "fat bas****" doesn't mean the person has a deep hatred for all people who are fat, it means they observed the person, saw a physical attribute, and picked on it. The same applies to using racial terms. I really believe that racial insults should be treated as no more insulting as other physical attribute insults.
Well you call me a 'fat b*****d' and see what you get.

Maybe the world would be a better place if people didn't feel the need to 'pick on' people.

Originally posted by mojoworking
If you think it's alright for black people to use the word, but not white. Then surely that's racism too?
If a black person is calling another black person a 'nigga', how on Earth can it be considered racism?? :confused:

Originally posted by Sidla
If a black person is calling another black person a 'nigga', how on Earth can it be considered racism?? :confused:

Not sure if you're agreeing with me or not there.

The racism comes into it when it's OK for one race to use the word, but when another race uses it, then everyone cries foul.

This is all academic anyway. As I keep saying, personally I wouldn't use the word, but if it is being used, I think the same rules should apply to both sides.

But a black person using the 'n' word isn't racist in itself, how can it be?

I think the problem only arises when people start moaning about not being able to use a word. It doesn't really bother me, I just don't use the word and don't really feel that I would ever want to use it.

Originally posted by DaBouncer
And what about Dance music, Frank Sinatra, Rat Pack etc etc :P

I think you'll find that Frank's music evolved out of the black jazz band music of the 20s & 30s.

As for dance music. I'll give you that one. It probably evolved from some spotty white nerd fiddling with his computer in his bedroom :)

Originally posted by mojoworking
As for dance music. I'll give you that one. It probably evolved from some spotty white nerd fiddling with his computer in his bedroom :)
That's where Daniel Beddingfield started. Now he sounds more like Michael Jackson though...

Originally posted by mojoworking

As for dance music. I'll give you that one. It probably evolved from some spotty white nerd fiddling with his computer in his bedroom :)

i take exception to being called a white nerd (haven't got any spots) :) ;)

Originally posted by Sidla
But a black person using the 'n' word isn't racist in itself, how can it be?

I think the problem only arises when people start moaning about not being able to use a word. It doesn't really bother me, I just don't use the word and don't really feel that I would ever want to use it.

You misunderstand me. The racism (if, indeed, that's what it is) part arises when one race is given preferential treatment over another.

eg. black people are allowed to use the word but other races can't. It's not the actual use of the word I'm referring to, it's the decision on who can and can't use it.

As I said, the same rules should apply for everyone.

I understood that part, but as I said that word is a racist one, so why should anyone want to use it?

As for black people useing the word, it doesn't really bother me, because they clearly can't use the word in a racist way.

I really don't see what there is to complain about.

This is a really good thread. It started out discussing Ron's use of an overtly racist word and now it turns out it's black people who are the racists. This being simply based on the fact that black people use a word in a bantering manner which when used by non-blacks is used in a pejorative way.

So they're the racists then. Sorted, thanks everyone.

Surely FUBU (For Us By Us) is racist though tiffy? Imagine the outcry if white designers did the same.

I wouldn't buy that label anyway and if they mean, 'for blacks by blacks', then imagine the lost opportunities. I don't really know who the 'US' refers to, could be rappers, men, players, humans.

Originally posted by max
This is a really good thread. It started out discussing Ron's use of an overtly racist word and now it turns out it's black people who are the racists. This being simply based on the fact that black people use a word in a bantering manner which when used by non-blacks is used in a pejorative way.

So they're the racists then. Sorted, thanks everyone.

pardon my ignorance but, as t020 has pointed out, i come from an ignorant outdated farming community. are you implying then that only white people are racist?

Originally posted by Killian
pardon my ignorance but, as t020 has pointed out, i come from an ignorant outdated farming community. are you implying then that only white people are racist?

Of course I'm not implying that only white people are racist. :loopy:

This thread is about Ron's use of a certain word. People seem to be trying to justify their own racism by saying it's not only whites who are racist. Racism is racism, doesn't matter who does it.

PS are non Devonians emmets or grockles? It's that long since I lived in both Devon (born there) or Cornwall (went to school there) that I've forgotten which term comes from which county.

Grockels is the Devon term. Emmets Cornwall. don't think t020 will be welcome as a Grockel somehow:)

Originally posted by Sidla
Maybe the world would be a better place if people didn't feel the need to 'pick on' people.

I think thats pretty much a given - however I think that t020 raised a good point - why should an insult revolving around race be treated as and worse than one revolving around some other trait. I have to wonder if the all the concern about racism and the treading on eggshells around people of different races actually hinders true integration as it is still making divisions between people based on a simple physical characteristic?

Why is there always this talk about walking on eggshells around people of other race? If you're not a racist person then what is there to worry about?

Originally posted by Sidla
Why is there always this talk about walking on eggshells around people of other race? If you're not a racist person then what is there to worry about?

If your excessively PC you could be so busy self censoring to ensure that your not saying anything that could possibly be construed as racist that you don't notice that you actually can't interact with anyone of a different race in case you say the wrong thing! Ironically perhaps its those who are most PC and afraid of being seen as racist that do the most eggshell walking!

Well if you say so...

I'm friends with loads of Asian students on my course and never feel that I have to walk on eggshells around them.

Would you class yourself as excessively PC then?

Is it Un-PC to call me 'skinny'? (which I am)

Or am I thin-boned? People call me skinny as an insult, I see it as an observation so although they are trying to offend me, they aren't :D

Errrmmmm how about circumferentially challenged, or skeletally compact :D

Originally posted by evildrneil
Would you class yourself as excessively PC then?
Can you be PC in excess? Surely it's something you either are or are not?

I would like to think that most of the time I'm PC, yes.

Originally posted by evildrneil
Errrmmmm how about circumferentially challenged, or skeletally compact :D

Lol - the PC brigade take heed! This is what I desire to be called in place of 'rake', 'skeletor' and 'stick' :D

Stick with skinny! Easier to say!

Originally posted by evildrneil
why should an insult revolving around race be treated as and worse than one revolving around some other trait. I have to wonder if the all the concern about racism and the treading on eggshells around people of different races actually hinders true integration as it is still making divisions between people based on a simple physical characteristic?


Precisely. If we started seeing it as only another attribute of a person I think integration would improve a lot. We leave slavery to the history books now and move on. Being black/asian is no better or worse than being white, and so being insulted with the term "black bas****" should be treated as no more serious as "fat bas****" - afterall, they're both just insults based on a physical attribute. Personally I don't like insulting people anyway though.

Originally posted by Sidla
Can you be PC in excess? Surely it's something you either are or are not?

I would like to think that most of the time I'm PC, yes.

Of course it's possible to be excessively PC. Some people are so busy overcompensating for what they perceive to be racism (or any number of other "isms") that common sense goes out the window.

For further reading on this topic, check out "The Modern Parents" in Viz Comic. It sums the situation up perfectly.

Originally posted by t020
Precisely. If we started seeing it as only another attribute of a person I think integration would improve a lot. We leave slavery to the history books now and move on. Being black/asian is no better or worse than being white, and so being insulted with the term "black bas****" should be treated as no more serious as "fat bas****" - afterall, they're both just insults based on a physical attribute. Personally I don't like insulting people anyway though.
I don't think you can really understand how hurtful that word is if you're white.
This was written by someone I know who is half Jamaican.

Originally posted by mojoworking
Of course it's possible to be excessively PC. Some people are so busy overcompensating for what they perceive to be racism (or any number of other "isms") that common sense goes out the window.

For further reading on this topic, check out "The Modern Parents" in Viz Comic. It sums the situation up perfectly.
I don't really agree. I accept that it's possible to be PC on some issues, but others not, but I don't think there's anyone alive who's PC about everything.

Originally posted by evildrneil
If your excessively PC you could be so busy self censoring to ensure that your not saying anything that could possibly be construed as racist that you don't notice that you actually can't interact with anyone of a different race in case you say the wrong thing! Ironically perhaps its those who are most PC and afraid of being seen as racist that do the most eggshell walking!
You're missing the point though EDR.

I'm not PC in the slightest (all my friends could confirm that) but I personally just don't see colour or race or religion as an issue. I don't have to be PC because it's simply not a concious act - it's just how I am - I have nothing to overcompensate for.

Isn't that how it should be?:)

Originally posted by Tony

I'm not PC in the slightest (all my friends could confirm that) but I personally just don't see colour or race or religion as an issue. I don't have to be PC because it's simply not a concious act - it's just how I am - I have nothing to overcompensate for.


If, as you claim, you "don't see colour or race or religion as an issue", why is it you make more noise and stir up more ill feeling than just about anyone else on this forum about precisely those 3 things?

You misunderstood what I wrote. Reread it again with the other meaning. It will become clear, along with the answer to your question. "Stir up ill feeling"??? Hehe, that's a good one from you!

Originally posted by DaBouncer
And what about Dance music, Frank Sinatra, Rat Pack etc etc :P

Sinatra evolved from the old black jazz bands and house music is a direct descendant of disco :)

http://www.jahsonic.com/BlackMusic.html gives you a bit of info if you're interested :)

Originally posted by Killian
i take exception to being called a white nerd (haven't got any spots) :) ;)

Good call.

But can you imagine the outcry if I'd said "spotty BLACK nerd"?

Originally posted by mojoworking
It sounds to me as if you'd rather like to do that! [burn a flag in Regents Park]

:D Please see my previous post regarding this. It was actually a dig at those people who don't see the word ****** as an insult, but demanded vengeance against flag burners.

Originally posted by mojoworking
If you think it's alright for black people to use the word, but not white. Then surely that's racism too?

Thank you. That is exactly the question I have been asking; why is it 'OK' for blacks to call each other ****** but not for whites to do it? In my view, none of it should be tolerated.

(Note - here comes Killian to tell me off for asking the same question for a third time in this thread :roll: )

Originally posted by Tony
You're missing the point though EDN.


I have - what point have I missed? I hought I was just making a general comment!


I'm not PC in the slightest (all my friends could confirm that) but I personally just don't see colour or race or religion as an issue. I don't have to be PC because it's simply not a concious act - it's just how I am - I have nothing to overcompensate for.

Isn't that how it should be?:)

I'm not actualy sure that it how it should be - alot of people see their race/culture/religion whatever as a very important part of their identity and might see it 'not being an issue' as people not taking it seriously. Whats really needed is a culture of respect for he things that people hold as being important. By their very nature the things that person A holds dear will sometimes conflict with the things that are important to person B - but if they treat each other with the respect for their feelings/belief/race whatever that they would like to recieve thing will be alot happier!

And I have to say (and not intending any offense here) that from reading your posts race and racism seems to be a MAJOR issue for you.

Sorry - I should have made myself clearer EDN. :P

I suppose what I'm saying is that I'm quite a simple soul and I have no real predjudice unless I have a good reason for it, Therefore I don't judge on the above factors because... well I simply don't. Perhaps I'm lucky. That's why I'm not PC. Take a look around the forum though, and you will see quite a few examples of people jumping to conclusions for no reason whatsoever, which seems to feed some fear that they have.

As for how I come across, it's not racism that annoys me - it's needless intolerance - check my sig's from time to time ;) My forum attitude has its roots in the time last year when there was something of a BNP takeover attempt (failed).

A lot of the media just feeds this further and makes it worse - see the recent articles in the Sun about "asylum seekers eat roasted swans".

I do agree that some people and organisations try too hard and end up with the reverse as you suggest.

Originally posted by Abdul
Thank you. That is exactly the question I have been asking; why is it 'OK' for blacks to call each other ****** but not for whites to do it? In my view, none of it should be tolerated.
Well obviously, I'm not black so feel free to dismiss this comment. As I have been trying to say, the word '******' is generally considered to be an insult. If a black person says it to another black person then he's insulting himself just as much, which in a way wipes out any offence.

I generally get offended when people have a go about my weight, but one of my mates is also of big build and we call each other 'fat boy'. Obviously I can't be offended by it because he's as fat as I am.

Why should Ron Atkinson be racist anyway? Isn't he orange himself?

Abdul, why have you asked the same question 3 times? ........... :D

Originally posted by Tony


As for how I come across, it's not racism that annoys me - it's needless intolerance - check my sig's from time to time ;) My forum attitude has its roots in the time last year when there was something of a BNP takeover attempt

this would explain why anyone who disagrees with you is a racist bigot and oft BNP supporter then

i dont mind in any shape or form people disagreeing with me,as has been said,what suits Mr A may be abhorrent to Mr B.

but i feel i must agree that certainly race has come across as a major issue with you, sorry if i mis-interpreted your post,but being called a racist twice in the same thread usually means you have an issue with it

Gizmo, you are entitled to your opinions, and I'm entitled to mine. Perhaps you and I should explain ourselves better to avoid misunderstandings eh?

I'm still struggling to see why you like Bernard Manning's act if you don't like racism, intolerance, bigitory, or whatever though :huh:

Maybe you should be sticking up for those he attacks instead of buying his videos?:confused:

i've completely lost the thread of this thread. where does Bernard Manning come into it? i thought we'd already done that somewhere else.

Originally posted by Tony
My forum attitude has its roots in the time last year when there was something of a BNP takeover attempt (failed).


Can you say which thread(s) this involved? I'd be interested in reading them.

ISTR that the posts by the really nasty users were deleted mojo, and some of the posters (who used various alias's) were then barred and deleted from the Forum. You could try this thread (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=655&perpage=15&highlight=indigenous&pagenumber=1). as a taster, but remember lots of it is missing.

They had various themes, from sending anyone who wasn't in THEIR opinion "British" to "their own country", to being anti-abortion in order to propogate the superior white master-race.

You and I may not see eye to eye on various things, but I'm sure you would have been as appalled as I was. - hence my attitude now to petty stuff that gives them and their ilk ground

I was going to post "abcdef" because I am not sure that people read each others posts properly and I was beginning to despair fo this forum!

Anyway people - if you stick your finger in a socket [and you are not a masochist] would you do it again?
And if it is agreed that the word ****** is offensive when used in a derogatory way - why use it.

I have no problem with racists or racism - you are entitled to your own opinion. Please feel free to hate me because I am black - but keep it to yourself. I don't want or need to know about your insecurities. I don't need to deal with it - you do!

I am sure that we are all familiar with homographs - words that have the same spelling but differ in origin, meaning, and sometimes pronunciation for ex fair and fair [colour, party]. Consider the word ****** as a homograph, when used in one context - for example I was saw two young white boys greet each other with high five and a "Hey ******, what'up"; dr dre etc represent a certain image so perhaps its appropriate for them. however, I think this new impetus of using ****** as a positive word is largely due to efforts by the black community to de-stereotype and de-hate this word :-)

The origins however, are probably back to slavery days and may well be a corruption of the word negro, and this is the other context.

So, when in doubt, do without. Don't use the word, whatever colour you are. If a black person has done something to offend u, cuss them out for what they have done, don't attack them on what you perceive to be a weak point. I say again, the word means nothing, to use it in a derogatory way suggests you have nothing in your head to describe how you feel.

Anyway, I realise when a thread is too long, few people read it, so will stop here.

Nuff said!

Originally posted by Lianndi
I was going to post "abcdef" because I am not sure that people read each others posts properly and I was beginning to despair fo this forum!

Anyway people - if you stick your finger in a socket [and you are not a masochist] would you do it again?
And if it is agreed that the word ****** is offensive when used in a derogatory way - why use it.

I have no problem with racists or racism - you are entitled to your own opinion. Please feel free to hate me because I am black - but keep it to yourself. I don't want or need to know about your insecurities. I don't need to deal with it - you do!

I am sure that we are all familiar with homographs - words that have the same spelling but differ in origin, meaning, and sometimes pronunciation for ex fair and fair [colour, party]. Consider the word ****** as a homograph, when used in one context - for example I was saw two young white boys greet each other with high five and a "Hey ******, what'up"; dr dre etc represent a certain image so perhaps its appropriate for them. however, I think this new impetus of using ****** as a positive word is largely due to efforts by the black community to de-stereotype and de-hate this word :-)

The origins however, are probably back to slavery days and may well be a corruption of the word negro, and this is the other context.

So, when in doubt, do without. Don't use the word, whatever colour you are. If a black person has done something to offend u, cuss them out for what they have done, don't attack them on what you perceive to be a weak point. I say again, the word means nothing, to use it in a derogatory way suggests you have nothing in your head to describe how you feel.

Anyway, I realise when a thread is too long, few people read it, so will stop here.

Nuff said!

The word you quoted in your post relates to NIGERIA which is in Africa.
People should be allowed to say what they think without it becoming a political issue.

Dragon

Originally posted by dragonsoup
The word you quoted in your post relates to NIGERIA which is in Africa.

Dragon

If you are talking about the word ******, then it is not derived from Nigeria. Nigeria and ****** share the same root, Niger which, as any horticulturalist or culinary botanist will tell you, is latin for black.

If you really want to know about the fascinating subject of the word ******, this (http://kpearson.faculty.tcnj.edu/Dictionary/******.htm) is a good jumping off point.