Don't use the car if you're having an affair - they will know where you've been and will have the pictures to prove it.

The Government and Police are introducing new camera systems that will record all numberplate's as they move around the country. The records will be kept for at least 2 years. The test system operates around Meadowhall, so we're first for a change!

It all starts this year... 2006!

Where was the parliamentary debate? Who gave us the chance to vote for or against it? What do you do if you don't like it? Should we even care if we're law abiding? Are you having your civil liberties infringed?


http://www.spy.org.uk/spyblog/2005/12/national_anpr_database_guilt_b.html

Here we go with the nanny state then :rolleyes:

Well without giving it too much thought Tony, i dont have a problem with it.

I would like to know the reason behind it. Is it for crime prevention? Detterent of crime or is it something more sinister in readiness to charge us for using the roads (to replace road tax). This i would be interested to here.

I'm not very happy about the fact that it stores the details for 2 years.
Other than that, I support the system, but 30 days should be sufficient.

I'm not very happy about the fact that it stores the details for 2 years.
Other than that, I support the system, but 30 days should be sufficient.

What's the length of time got to do with it- why should you be happy with 30 days but not 2 years and can you enlarge as to how you believe that 30 days would be sufficient?

The powers that be are going to be far to occuppied with scrutising the data generated on persons of real interest to them to be in the least bit bothered about who's having an affair with who - unless it's a copper's wife you're seeing Tony ;)

PS - Isn't there a thread on this already? I'm sure the M'hell test system has been debated before :suspect:

There is strix, and I checked first like any good member would ;) It's only a tiddler that died a death and this is about the wider issue, not just meadowhall.

Is it for crime prevention? Detterent of crime or is it something more sinister in readiness to charge us for using the roads (to replace road tax). This i would be interested to here.
I suspect all of the above :suspect:

My mum would say if you're not doing anything wrong you've got nothing to hide. I'm not so sure - we're just so convinced we're never going to have a totalitarian government ever again, arent we - it seems a little foolish to allow our government such power over us with the blind faith that they will only use it for good things. I just feel uneasy about it I suppose.

What's the length of time got to do with it- why should you be happy with 30 days but not 2 years and can you enlarge as to how you believe that 30 days would be sufficient?

30 days would be sufficient to allow for a given crime to be reported and still be able to use the data to assist in investigating that crime.
No one reports a crime 2 years after the event.

We have a right to privacy, and that includes not having our movements tracked by any government agency without due reason and a court warrant IMO.
Using a real time system to detect tax/insurance dodgers, that i'd be quite happy with as they should be taken off the road. but monitoring where I go, that i'm much much less keen on.

30 days would be sufficient to allow for a given crime to be reported and still be able to use the data to assist in investigating that crime.
No one reports a crime 2 years after the event.

Er, so what about the crimes that take 18 months to stake out?

obviously they could apply to a judge to get special permission to hold specific data beyond the 30 days (exactly the same as the process in place to hold it if they want it beyond 2 years).

30 days would be sufficient to allow for a given crime to be reported and still be able to use the data to assist in investigating that crime.
No one reports a crime 2 years after the event.

We have a right to privacy, and that includes not having our movements tracked by any government agency without due reason and a court warrant IMO.
Using a real time system to detect tax/insurance dodgers, that i'd be quite happy with as they should be taken off the road. but monitoring where I go, that i'm much much less keen on.

Personally I'm against the idea because I see it as yet another example of a surveillance state.

However as you seem to favour it for the reasons that you have given, I don't see how you can come up with a figure of thirty days to detect and assist the investigation of crime- I wasn't aware that you are some kind of expert on policing so I am very dubious of the figure that you have come up with.

obviously they could apply to a judge to get special permission to hold specific data beyond the 30 days (exactly the same as the process in place to hold it if they want it beyond 2 years).
You're making this up as you go along aren't you? :heyhey:

Come on fess up :D

Is this the 1 hour argument or have paid for just 30 mins? :hihi:

My mum would say if you're not doing anything wrong you've got nothing to hide. I'm not so sure - we're just so convinced we're never going to have a totalitarian government ever again, arent we - it seems a little foolish to allow our government such power over us with the blind faith that they will only use it for good things. I just feel uneasy about it I suppose.

You also have to remember that once things are made law, they're never repealed again. Even if we assume that the current government is one that we can trust, there may be a much worse government in 20 years or so that is able to use these car monitoring techniques for much more sinister reasons. If that did happen, the current government would be partly culpable for introducing them in the first place.

To me it seems insane that the movements of all vehicles are to be stored just because a very small minority are using them for criminal activities.

:(

You're making this up as you go along aren't you? :heyhey:

Come on fess up :D

Is this the 1 hour argument or have paid for just 30 mins? :hihi:

feel free to check or contribute something useful to the thread whenever you like.

Guess where the trial was (and is still running)...

Meadowhall

Every road around Meadowhall tracks every number plate and has been for a couple of years now. So the Government already know how often we all go shopping.

I'm not worried at all about this, simply because the sheer amount of data they will be getting would make it impossible for them to sit there idly flicking through to see what we're up to.

Policing was so much easier in the days when people didn't venture far outside their own village :roll:

why do we all moan about how ineffective the police are, then want to deny them any tools to actually solve any crime?

Personally I'm against the idea because I see it as yet another example of a surveillance state.

However as you seem to favour it for the reasons that you have given, I don't see how you can come up with a figure of thirty days to detect and assist the investigation of crime- I wasn't aware that you are some kind of expert on policing so I am very dubious of the figure that you have come up with.

I'm not.
I'm only really in favour of using it to monitor for untaxed or uninsured vehicles.
If I had to accept that the data would be stored for some length of time, i'd rather it was as short as was of reasonable use to the police.

I can see how it would help if a car is used to leave a crime scene, but most crimes are reported quickly, I think, you don't often here that someone was dragged into a car, or a hit and run, or an armed robbery and not reported until several weeks later, do you?

Guess where the trial was (and is still running)...

Meadowhall
I think that was mentioned here:
Don't use the car if you're having an affair - they will know where you've been and will have the pictures to prove it.

The Government and Police are introducing new camera systems that will record all numberplate's as they move around the country. The records will be kept for at least 2 years. The test system operates around Meadowhall, so we're first for a change!

It all starts this year... 2006!

Where was the parliamentary debate? Who gave us the chance to vote for or against it? What do you do if you don't like it? Should we even care if we're law abiding? Are you having your civil liberties infringed?


http://www.spy.org.uk/spyblog/2005/12/national_anpr_database_guilt_b.html

Guess where the trial was (and is still running)...

Meadowhall

Every road around Meadowhall tracks every number plate and has been for a couple of years now. So the Government already know how often we all go shopping.

I'm not worried at all about this, simply because the sheer amount of data they will be getting would make it impossible for them to sit there idly flicking through to see what we're up to.

but it doesn't stop the system being open to abuse by an individual.

you don't often here that someone was dragged into a car, or a hit and run, or an armed robbery and not reported until several weeks later, do you?
No, but you hear that a stolen car that was used in a ramraid was missing for 2 months before it was used in the crime. Or surveilance was carried out for months before a crime was committed. It would be so much easier to detect crimes at the planning stage with this system

There's already a similar, private, system in operation and it has been in place for a while. Those tall, blue cameras you see from time to time - there is one near Meadowhed - do the exact same thing.
I know they don't offer blanket coverage but they still monitor most major routes around the country. However this is a private venture. The company in charge paid for the right to install the cameras and sells the info back to the Govt and people who have certain sat nav systems.
Playing Devil's Advocate, their are two positives that come to mind when considering the new system. Firstly, the cost to the tax payer will be less than if the private system is maintained or extended. Secondly - the removal of a need for traffic census' which I believe have caused some consternation amongst other SFers recently.
Also, the old adage that if you don't break the law, you don't have anything to worry about should apply here. I say this because we wont be able to stop the system being implemented, so let's try and be positive about it.

http://www.abd.org.uk/blue-cam.htm

I'm not.
I'm only really in favour of using it to monitor for untaxed or uninsured vehicles.
If I had to accept that the data would be stored for some length of time, i'd rather it was as short as was of reasonable use to the police.

That would be okay if the Police didn't already have systems in place to track down such vehicles and their owners- they share information with the DVLA, insurance companies and now MOT's are being linked to vehicle databases.

You're either in favour of the introduction of this monitoring, in which case they may as well keep the information for ever or you see it for what it is, something to be mistrusted and you are against it. As with the ID cards, this country seems to be sleepwalking into state control of the population using whatever technological means the government has at its disposal.

Ironically I would like to have seen a Conservative government try and implement all this and seen the reaction on this forum in particular!

There's already a similar, private, system in operation and it has been in place for a while. Those tall, blue cameras you see from time to time - there is one near Meadowhed - do the exact same thing.
I know they don't offer blanket coverage but they still monitor most major routes around the country. However this is a private venture. The company in charge paid for the right to install the cameras and sells the info back to the Govt and people who have certain sat nav systems.
Playing Devil's Advocate, their are two positives that come to mind when considering the new system. Firstly, the cost to the tax payer will be less than if the private system is maintained or extended. Secondly - the removal of a need for traffic census' which I believe have caused some consternation amongst other SFers recently.
Also, the old adage that if you don't break the law, you don't have anything to worry about should apply here. I say this because we wont be able to stop the system being implemented, so let's try and be positive about it.

http://www.abd.org.uk/blue-cam.htm

they monitor traffic levels, they do not record number plates. Completely different.

No, but you hear that a stolen car that was used in a ramraid was missing for 2 months before it was used in the crime. Or surveilance was carried out for months before a crime was committed. It would be so much easier to detect crimes at the planning stage with this system

It might have been missing, as in the police hadn't found it, but it probably wasn't hidden in an underground bunker.

No historical data would be required to prevent that ram raid, as soon as the car reappeared on the road somewhere the system would flag it up immediately and squad car could intercept it.
Theft solves, robbery avoided, nobodies privacy invaded.

That would be okay if the Police didn't already have systems in place to track down such vehicles and their owners- they share information with the DVLA, insurance companies and now MOT's are being linked to vehicle databases.

You're either in favour of the introduction of this monitoring, in which case they may as well keep the information for ever or you see it for what it is, something to be mistrusted and you are against it. As with the ID cards, this country seems to be sleepwalking into state control of the population using whatever technological means the government has at its disposal.

Ironically I would like to have seen a Conservative government try and implement all this and seen the reaction on this forum in particular!

all quite new things, and I think good.
How about if I report my car stolen, a real time monitoring system could flag it's current position up as a car was sent to intercept it.
Even if they just stored last known position, I could report it hours later when I found it and they could head straight to the last recorded position.
No need to keep track of it's movements between times.

Don't use the car if you're having an affair

will get taxi in future:hihi:

they monitor traffic levels, they do not record number plates. Completely different.

Apparently not - this from the sixth paragraph of the page I linked to.


How it works

Trafficmaster claim that the system stores only part of a vehicle's registration number. They state that only the middle four characters are stored. Since most registration numbers in the UK have seven characters, there is no such thing as the middle four! The system must therefore be able to read the whole registration number in order to extract the 'middle four' characters.
Trafficmaster further claim that only a sample of vehicles is used.
It it obvious that if a given vehicle is chosen at random by one sensor, then the next sensor must read all the registration plates passing it in order to catch the vehicle. Since vehicles travel in all directions, all sensors must read all vehicles for the system to work. It may be that only a sample of registration numbers are stored for average speed calculations, but the system clearly must have the ability to capture all vehicles.

I raised a thread, just over 5 weeks ago, in which I posted a link to a Times article........ on 21st or 22nd February. It was a thread related to the new Amendments proposed on the Regulatory Powers of Ministers.

Those Amendments became Law a few days ago.

Compared to the concerns voiced on here today it mostly went un-noticed.
The proposals announced to track all vehicles around Meadowhall, and throughout the country, pale into insignificance compared to the new regulatory Laws.

We are open to a potential dictatorship more so now than ever before.

Please, please read the article completely. Remember, this is now Law. We may not always have a "benign" Government. I/D Cards, car tracking etc are just the start of a process.........


Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1072-2049791,00.html)

My Original Thread (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=91732)

well i have something to add to the old adage- "if you've done nothing wrong then why should you have to prove it?

i think its despicable how the government has gotten away with this. like tony said when did the government and mps vote for this? how come we've only jst found out about it, now that we can't do anything about it?

what has happened to this once great nation? they never would have stood for it in the 1960's! they would have been in the streets protesting, banging on the door of No. 10 with petitions (o yes, there was a time when you could get that close). now u need a ****ing permission slip to protest outside the bleedin place! u need permisson to protest anywhere nowadays! we've given up our most basic freedoms and for what? so we can all be a little bit safer from the criminals and the terroists? ye well I would have the terroists and criminals anyday over the totalitarian government that we have!(well its turning into one anyway.)

what made us all so apathetic? i mean people write about all the big brother stuff thats happening, but thats all anyone is doing. you can write about this stuff all day and it wont make a difference. we need to be out there in the streets, protesting about this!

now who's with me?

ME! ...Good on ya, Ditz!

The part of the country where I live is surrounded on 3 sides by the sea.
Recently several sets of these cameras were set up such that it is impossible to leave or enter the area without it being recorded.
As has been pointed out in this thread we are on the slippery slope to a total dictatorship. If a viscious Left or Right wing Govt gets in the laws are already in place.Just think of NSDAP in 1933
When this lot were elected was there any inkling that our liberty would slowly be eroded?
During the 1985 miners strike the police had the reg. numbers of the local miner's cars and stopped them leaving the county to picket in the North.
Think how much easier their job will be now with these cameras.
Another thing ........if they can track you across the country think how much easier it will be to charge you for your use of the roads.
Yours cynically.
Dave

Just how is it going to stop criminals? They can / do just use false plates.

Criminals dont have one car and what do they do to people who are insured to drive anyones motor! i can jump into anyones car and im insured! thats alot of cars to track me down and i aint a criminal.:suspect:

the system would only work for a vehicle for which no insurance is on the db.
And as already pointed out, the linked databases of mot, tax, insurance should stop that.
So abuot all this will be able to do is track down a stolen car, spot when a car declared sorn or broken up is being used, oh and track pretty much our every movement.

Just how is it going to stop criminals? They can / do just use false plates.
False plates would be much easier to spot, as they would have to be real number plates, and two vehicles with the same number in two different places should flag up on the system. probably the best example of why we should have this system.

Perhaps it's the congestion charging that has sparked this 'need'? We all know it's not for catching terrorists - no matter what the government say :rolleyes:

I'm not very happy about the fact that it stores the details for 2 years.
Other than that, I support the system, but 30 days should be sufficient.

I don’t have a problem with details being held on file for two years. Sometimes there is new evidence, cases are reopened and it may just provide the proof the police need.

False plates would be much easier to spot, as they would have to be real number plates, and two vehicles with the same number in two different places should flag up on the system. probably the best example of why we should have this system.

Perhaps it's the congestion charging that has sparked this 'need'? We all know it's not for catching terrorists - no matter what the government say :rolleyes:
On your first point I think you're totally wrong. :o

And on your second point, I think you're dead right ;)

On your first point I think you're totally wrong. :o
Kindly explain - c'mon Tony, you're a better poster than that ;)

Go on then :hihi:

Unless there are 2 identical plates being recorded moving at the same time it won't register.

Criminals can keep changing plates.

Only plates registered at the DVLA will be referenced anyway so if a totally non (DVLA) existent plate is logged then the system will be blind to it. This happens now with foreign plates - they just don't register and can't be traced.

The Police won't have the resources (or inclination) to lay in wait for a vehicle.

I suspect that the system is merely for recording purposes and isn't a 'live' tool. Any check would be retrospective.

Which brings us back nicely to road charging :D

Ohhh goody - toll roads :roll:

And great big foff barriers :mad:

TBH, if they are as good and as fast and as cheap as the ones in spain, and they reduce the traffic to Spanish levels then I'm all for it. For instance, Valencia to Alicante is only about €14.

Surprisingly for me (;)) I can't see it being anything more than another layer of taxation and the roads will be just as bad and it will cost loads more money, like £25 for equivalent journey. :(

Go on then :hihi:

Unless there are 2 identical plates being recorded moving at the same time it won't register.

Criminals can keep changing plates.

Only plates registered at the DVLA will be referenced anyway so if a totally non (DVLA) existent plate is logged then the system will be blind to it. This happens now with foreign plates - they just don't register and can't be traced.

The Police won't have the resources (or inclination) to lay in wait for a vehicle.

I suspect that the system is merely for recording purposes and isn't a 'live' tool. Any check would be retrospective.

Which brings us back nicely to road charging :D

I hear they are going to put 'chips' into number plates though, so that if you had a non-chipped plate it would show up on the surveillance system. That would make it much more difficult for drivers to change plates as they'd have to get hold of an 'official, chipped' plate.

Some stores already do put nano tech into products as innocuous as clothing without our knowledge, meaning that we could already be traced just by wearing a certain jumper or coat! And we can also already be traced via our mobiles and use of bank cards. :o

One thing is for sure, far from "rolling back the frontiers of the state", its just become bigger and bigger. It just seems that everything we do and everywhere we go is increasingly logged. Perhaps a few false plates ending in FU are in order.

I remember a prediction of Britain in 2020 in a Sunday newspaper a year or so ago that hypothesised going to the lavatory at work and it analysing your pee. From that 'the company' could give you warnings about alcohol intake and suspend or sack you since it had the right to know about its employees habits lest it affect their efficiency.

The state is also a collection of mainly unelected people who have all the human frailties and potential for corruption, and thats before we talk about extreme governments.

Some stores already do put nano tech into products as innocuous as clothing without our knowledge, meaning that we could already be traced just by wearing a certain jumper or coat! And we can also already be traced via our mobiles and use of bank cards. :o

rfid tags in plates is correct, but nanotech in your clothing, you've been reading too much sci fi.